Re: [Linux-aus] Hello everyone! and Grant Request

[Tim Ansell <mithro@mithis.net>]

On Sun, 2005-07-03 at 00:29 +1000, Michael Bennett wrote:
> Mark Tearle wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jun 2005, Tim Ansell wrote:
> > 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >>
> >> FXS devices are still very expensive however (the cheapest being around
> >> $AUS 70 per line). A FXS line is required for every internal phone, so
> >> while it Asterisk might be able to get away with a small number of FXO
> >> lines it needs numerous FXS lines.
> > 
> 
> Is $70 per line really that expensive? If so, what price is affordable?

Yes, I believe that $70 per line is out of the reach of small businesses
and home offices. 

I would like at least 6 lines for my house,
 * My room
 * Parents room
 * Sisters room
 * The home office
 * Dads shed down 

This would cost me $420 just to setup the phone interface. I would then
have the extra costs for the Asterisk box, cable runs, etc. Then if I
was a company I would most probably have support costs.

> What price would it cost you to manufacture your FXS and in what quantities?
> 

So far the eight line interface should cost under $US 100 for an 8 line
device to be build by hand.

> Can we just go to the manufacturer that sells at $70 per line model and
> put in a group order for 1000 units and see what discount we get?
> 

Can you get it down to $US 12 per line? I worked at a place which was
looking to do VOIP stuff, the cheapest they could get was $AUS 45 per
line.

> > 
> > *snip*
> > 
> >> The clear benefit of this project is that cheap FXS devices become
> >> available. This could dramatically increase Asterisk's penetration into
> >> areas which would not normally consider VOIP PBX to be cost effective
> >> savings, such as small business and general home usage. It will also
> >> help further the goal of moving to a completely open system, one which
> >> includes open hardware.
> > 
> > 
> > Quick question:  how are you going to deal with compliance and
> > certification to Australian Standards for these devices?
> > 
> 
> It is required to meet electrical safety standards, EMC standards and
> get a c-tick before it can be marketed in Australia. This does make it
> very hard for homebrew projects to be commercialised.
> 

I'd have to investigate this more. You don't however need the Austel
approval as it doesn't connect to the PSTN network.

> >> Request:
> >>
> <snip>
> >>
> >> Which both charge $US 33 per PCB. I believe it will take me between 4
> >> and 8 prototypes before the final design is finished. This means the
> >> cost will be around ~$US 200. I did hear that some people at the
> >> linux.conf.au might also be able to do this cheaply, but have lost
> >> contact with them.
> 
> You may want to try wire wrapping for prototypes. It's an old technique
> but it works, is reliable, its easy to do and easy to modify a
> prototype. It also is cheaper than multiple PCB prototypes.

I've been prototyping on breadboard with good results. Most of the
signals are really slow speed so the capacitance isn't a huge issue.

I've also had a lot of help from some of the guys in the Elec Eng
department at Uni.

> 
> >> I also would like some help with the cost of parts. I have managed to
> >> source most of the chips as "free samples" in sufficient quantity to
> >> not need to buy any. However I need to purchase other SMD components
> >> such as resistors and capacitors. Most of these however only come in
> >> groups of 50 or 100 (at $AU 0.10 cents each). So far I have spent
> >> around ~$AU 200 buying parts for usage on this project. I will soon
> >> spend another ~$AU 50 for more parts. I was hopping to get a small fund
> >> (maybe $AU 200-$AU 500) which I can use to buy (and re-emburse) these
> >> parts. Specialised SMD to DIP converters and similar for prototyping
> >> could also be purchased from this fund. Any expensive parts brought and
> >> are left over would be available for other projects.
> 
> I think this request opens up a lot of interesting possibilities (can of
> worms) for LA sponsorship and illustrates the difference between open
> software and open hardware. If LA were to sponsor this project and it
> was successful we would end up with an publically exploitable design for
> a FXS. This wouldn't be much use by itself and we would still go out and
> buy the $70 per line FXS because a design in hardware still needs to be
> manufactured for it to be useful.
> 

Although the hand design should be able to be produced by hand for under
$US 100.

> If I were to take that design and build for only myself it may cost me
> $140 per line in quantities of 10. If I got some of my friends together
> and had it manufactured in quantities of 100 the price might be $70 per
> line. If it was a small scale manufacture in quantities of 1000 I might
> be able to half the price in which case it would be useful at the
> 'affordable' price point.
> 
> Then if I'm manufacturing it and selling it, I need to provide a
> warranty under law which I don't need to do if it is software. I need to
> comply with all regulatory requirements which I don't under software. It
> also costs real money to apply a patch in hardware or fix a fault.
> 
> Would LA want to be involved with any part of this after the design has
> been completed? If not who will assume the risks associated with
> hardware that are not present with software?
> 

I definitely think open source hardware is a good thing to do and
requires lots more support from organisations from LA (because of the
extra problems). 

> >> As I have only recently started participating in hardware side of the
> >> Open Source world, I am lacking a few tools for working on it. A
> >> quality soldering iron would be a welcome addition (current using a
> >> cheap $14 soldering iron). Other welcome tools include an Oscilloscope
> >> (a second hand one would be cool - been using the Uni's currently),
> >> universal chip programmer and a quality digital multimeter (using
> >> another cheap one). All these devices vary quite a lot in price and
> >> second hand are just as good.
> 
> My suggestion is become a hardware engineer and work for a company which
> lets you borrow their equipment :-)
> 

I don't think I could stand working on hardware all day and then working
on it as a hobby.

> The cheapest you'll find test equipment is to use the PC based solutions
> such as bitscope. I'm not sure of their support for linux though.
> 
> >> As the Open Source software for producing PCB is still primate I have
> >> been using a piece of software called "CadSoft Eagle". While this
> >> product is not "free as in freedom" there is a version which is "free
> >> as in beer" (which runs on Windows, Linux and MacOSX). This should
> >> allow everyone to view and produce PCBs from the design.
> >> While I have been using the free version, I am running up against it's
> >> restrictions. I would like to purchase a full copy of the Standard
> >> version for Students which costs $US 298.50, I understand if people
> >> think this is inappropriate usage of the money.
> > 
> 
> This is one of the problems with hardware. The tools are so expensive.
> The cheap commercial grade PCB CAD package costs US$10,000 and the base
> model good commmercial packages start at about US$30,000. There's an
> open source package called Gnu EDA (GEDA). I think it is now at a
> useable stage. However with hardware design tools you get what you pay
> for. The more expensive the tool, the better your design can be verified
> in software so that when you eventually get around to building it there
> is a higher probability that it will work the way you expect it first time.
> 

Surprisingly things like Eagle has been used commercially, they have
been continually dropped in price. GEDA is coming along however just
isn't up to a stage where designing hardware easily. (It doesn't have
back-forward notation.)

> I would encourage anyone who wants to work on free software but doesn't
> know what to do to have a look at developing electronic design
> automation (EDA) tools. We desparately need good tools in this area.
> 
> This project sounds like a cool project and we don't have enough people
> doing cool open hardware projects (or even boring open hardware
> projects). I wish you all the best in it however I don't see its
> benefits for the LA community justifying the sponsorship.
> 

Thanks for your response.

Tim Ansell