From terrykemp at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:29:52 2022 From: terrykemp at gmail.com (Terence Kemp) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 13:29:52 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Internet Governance // Linux Victoria November 2022 Message-ID: Hi All FYI https://www.meetup.com/linux-users-of-victoria/events/288898015/ ** NOTE: This event is pushed back one week since Tuesday Nov 1st is a public holiday in Victoria, Australia. ** Welcome to the LUV monthly Main Meeting! Every month, members of LUV, Linux Users of Victoria, get together on the first Tuesday of the month (or the 2nd if that is a public holiday!) to review latest news and join one or two technical sessions on topics of interest, such as Linux, Data, Networking, and Security. ## Topic: Internet Governance We are dedicating the November discussion to Internet Governance following the Australian Internet Governance Annual Conference a.k.a NetThing on October 27th and 28th. You may explore the conference program on the NetThing website: https://netthing.org.au/program ## Schedule 19:00 Meet and greet 19:30 News and announcements 20:00 Group discussion 21:00 Closure and networking ## How to Join Electron Workshop eVenue: https://venue.electronworkshop.com.au/r/linux-victoria (We use a self-hosted BBB instance for video conferencing) Regards Terry From russell at coker.com.au Mon Nov 28 17:57:49 2022 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 17:57:49 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] USB-C chargers Message-ID: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> https://www.austeamhk.com/products/30w-usb-c-power-adapter-charger-for-lenovo-x1-carbon-5th-gen I have a Thinkpad Carbon X1 Gen5 which shipped with a 65W USB-C PSU and which runs well with a 45W USB-C PSU. The above advert and others like it imply that 30W is adequate to power that laptop. https://www.kogan.com/au/c/black-friday-sale-22-tech/shop/category/phones-accessories-smartphones-accessories-44025/?facet-features-furniture-filterable=GaN+Technology Kogan offered some deals on GaN chargers, the above is the one that's still on sale, they also had a 30W one for $10 which I bought expecting it to work with my Thinkpad, but it didn't. How do I work out why the charger didn't work? If I buy the 68W version of that charger is it likely to work? Could it be the USB-C - USB-C cables that I used (I tested 3 cables of different brands from my collection)? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Mon Nov 28 18:53:32 2022 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 17:53:32 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] USB-C chargers In-Reply-To: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> References: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> Message-ID: <20221128175332.742d32ac@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > I have a Thinkpad Carbon X1 Gen5 which shipped with a 65W USB-C PSU > and which runs well with a 45W USB-C PSU. The above advert and > others like it imply that 30W is adequate to power that laptop. > > https://www.kogan.com/au/c/black-friday-sale-22-tech/shop/category/phones-accessories-smartphones-accessories-44025/?facet-features-furniture-filterable=GaN+Technology > > Kogan offered some deals on GaN chargers, the above is the one that's > still on sale, they also had a 30W one for $10 which I bought > expecting it to work with my Thinkpad, but it didn't. > > How do I work out why the charger didn't work? If I buy the 68W > version of that charger is it likely to work? Could it be the USB-C > - USB-C cables that I used (I tested 3 cables of different brands > from my collection)? "Didn't work" is too generic of a term to really offer any suggestions. This could mean: - The charger didn't switch on when connected to the laptop. - The laptop did not react when the charger was connected. - The laptop did react but rejected the charger. - The laptop took its operating power from the charger but did not charge its battery. Without knowing what happened when connecting the charger it's impossible to say. As far as cables, it could be the USB-C cable. You can get cheap ones that are only wired for USB 2.0 internally (but with USB-C plugs), and these won't work for USB 3.0 or USB PD (power delivery) as they physically need more wires in the cable. The only way to confirm this is to test a cable with a known good charger and device, and where the device is one that you know will refuse to use USB 2.0's 5 volts. You might think a thicker cable means there must be more wires in it, but not when companies produce USB 2.0 cables with extra thick insulation to mislead unsuspecting customers. As for the charger itself, if you look at the specs they list the voltages and currents supported for USB PD. I think the Thinkpad wants 20 volts (although it may accept less, I don't know), and both chargers you have linked to claim to output 20 volts in their specs, so in theory they would work. However without knowing the specs on the 30 W charger you have, it's hard to say whether this is the problem. If the 30 W charger can't output above 17 V then I'd suspect that could be why it doesn't work, given a known good USB-C cable. As more devices start to use USB PD, you may want to consider getting a USB power monitor that supports PD, so you can plug it in between the device and charger and actually see what's going on. These devices will show the actual voltage and current on a small screen, so you can see exactly what's going on and more easily compare different devices and chargers. Here is an example I picked randomly from Aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32816538942.html There are heaps, just make sure you get one with USB-C plugs and support for USB PD. If you have a known working set up (say the official Thinkpad charger and laptop) you can plug the charger into the power monitor, then connect the power monitor to the laptop with a suspect USB cable. You will then see on the power monitor screen whether it jumps up to 20 volts (meaning the suspect cable is good) or whether it stays at the standard 5 volts (meaning the suspect cable is not PD-compatible so it can only be used for basic USB 2.0-compatible charging). Cheers, Adam. From paulway at mabula.net Mon Nov 28 19:38:15 2022 From: paulway at mabula.net (Paul Wayper) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 19:38:15 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] USB-C chargers In-Reply-To: <20221128175332.742d32ac@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> References: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> <20221128175332.742d32ac@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <0070d748-86cd-a3cf-6110-25caa68282a5@mabula.net> On 28/11/22 6:53 pm, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus wrote: > As for the charger itself, if you look at the specs they list the > voltages and currents supported for USB PD. I think the Thinkpad wants > 20 volts (although it may accept less, I don't know), and both chargers > you have linked to claim to output 20 volts in their specs, so in theory > they would work. > > However without knowing the specs on the 30 W charger you have, it's > hard to say whether this is the problem. If the 30 W charger can't > output above 17 V then I'd suspect that could be why it doesn't work, > given a known good USB-C cable. The other problem here is that the USB 3 PD spec has the charger and the device talk to eachother to find out what power modes each supports.? At 20V there is one mode for 45-60W and another for 60-100W; a device capable of delivering 30W may well be in the 15V range (27-45W).? If the battery charging hardware requires greater than 18V (the usual reason AFAIK for laptops to need 20V), then it's just not going to turn on for a 15V charger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#USB_Power_Delivery If the new 30W charger does actually deliver 20V, then it's under-spec - the minimum should be 45W. Caveat: I am not a USB 3 expert :-) > As more devices start to use USB PD, you may want to consider getting a > USB power monitor that supports PD, so you can plug it in between the > device and charger and actually see what's going on. These devices > will show the actual voltage and current on a small screen, so you can > see exactly what's going on and more easily compare different devices > and chargers. Here is an example I picked randomly from Aliexpress: +1 for these devices, very handy.? Make sure you also get one that's bidirectional - I mistakenly got one that only shows charging stats if it's plugged into the charger (i.e. the charger has to have a socket, not a plug).? Very annoying. So why were we trying to get a low power charger?? I don't find the Thinkpad one very bulky... is it? Have fun, Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james at jamesh.id.au Mon Nov 28 21:10:31 2022 From: james at jamesh.id.au (James Henstridge) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 18:10:31 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] USB-C chargers In-Reply-To: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> References: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 14:58, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > https://www.austeamhk.com/products/30w-usb-c-power-adapter-charger-for-lenovo-x1-carbon-5th-gen > > I have a Thinkpad Carbon X1 Gen5 which shipped with a 65W USB-C PSU and which > runs well with a 45W USB-C PSU. The above advert and others like it imply > that 30W is adequate to power that laptop. > > https://www.kogan.com/au/c/black-friday-sale-22-tech/shop/category/phones-accessories-smartphones-accessories-44025/?facet-features-furniture-filterable=GaN+Technology > > Kogan offered some deals on GaN chargers, the above is the one that's still on > sale, they also had a 30W one for $10 which I bought expecting it to work with > my Thinkpad, but it didn't. > > How do I work out why the charger didn't work? If I buy the 68W version of > that charger is it likely to work? Could it be the USB-C - USB-C cables that > I used (I tested 3 cables of different brands from my collection)? You can sometimes find some information in /sys/class/typec as described here: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-typec However, it really depends on what information the hardware exposes to the OS. I've got an X1 Gen5, and only a small amount of that info is exposed (at least on kernel 5.19: there's no ). I think most of the USB-PD stuff is being handled in the firmware without the OS's involvement. The spec sheet for the laptop seems to indicate that it won't fast charge with the official 45W charger, so I suspect a 30W charger won't cut it. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_5th_Gen/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_5th_Gen_Spec.PDF James. From russell at coker.com.au Mon Nov 28 22:20:49 2022 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 22:20:49 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] USB-C chargers In-Reply-To: <20221128175332.742d32ac@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> References: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> <20221128175332.742d32ac@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <5125904.2VHbPRQshP@xev> On Monday, 28 November 2022 18:53:32 AEDT Adam Nielsen via linux-aus wrote: > > I have a Thinkpad Carbon X1 Gen5 which shipped with a 65W USB-C PSU > > and which runs well with a 45W USB-C PSU. The above advert and > > others like it imply that 30W is adequate to power that laptop. > > > > https://www.kogan.com/au/c/black-friday-sale-22-tech/shop/category/phones-> > accessories-smartphones-accessories-44025/?facet-features-furniture-filter > > able=GaN+Technology > > > > Kogan offered some deals on GaN chargers, the above is the one that's > > still on sale, they also had a 30W one for $10 which I bought > > expecting it to work with my Thinkpad, but it didn't. > > > > How do I work out why the charger didn't work? If I buy the 68W > > version of that charger is it likely to work? Could it be the USB-C > > - USB-C cables that I used (I tested 3 cables of different brands > > from my collection)? > > "Didn't work" is too generic of a term to really offer any suggestions. > This could mean: > > - The charger didn't switch on when connected to the laptop. > > - The laptop did not react when the charger was connected. > > - The laptop did react but rejected the charger. > > - The laptop took its operating power from the charger but did not > charge its battery. > > Without knowing what happened when connecting the charger it's > impossible to say. I've attached a message I get from KDE when I hover the mouse over the battery icon, it says "The power supply is not powerful enough to charge the battery". My problem is that I don't know enough about this topic to know what to look for. > As far as cables, it could be the USB-C cable. You can get cheap ones > that are only wired for USB 2.0 internally (but with USB-C plugs), and > these won't work for USB 3.0 or USB PD (power delivery) as they > physically need more wires in the cable. The only way to confirm this > is to test a cable with a known good charger and device, and where the > device is one that you know will refuse to use USB 2.0's 5 volts. You > might think a thicker cable means there must be more wires in it, but > not when companies produce USB 2.0 cables with extra thick insulation > to mislead unsuspecting customers. I don't know if I have any such devices. I have a bit of a chicken and egg situation here. > As for the charger itself, if you look at the specs they list the > voltages and currents supported for USB PD. I think the Thinkpad wants > 20 volts (although it may accept less, I don't know), and both chargers > you have linked to claim to output 20 volts in their specs, so in theory > they would work. The one I have specifies 20V 1.5A. > However without knowing the specs on the 30 W charger you have, it's > hard to say whether this is the problem. If the 30 W charger can't > output above 17 V then I'd suspect that could be why it doesn't work, > given a known good USB-C cable. I know the USB-C cables work for "fast charge" of phones. I don't know if that means much, probably not. > As more devices start to use USB PD, you may want to consider getting a > USB power monitor that supports PD, so you can plug it in between the > device and charger and actually see what's going on. These devices > will show the actual voltage and current on a small screen, so you can > see exactly what's going on and more easily compare different devices > and chargers. Here is an example I picked randomly from Aliexpress: > > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32816538942.html > > There are heaps, just make sure you get one with USB-C plugs and > support for USB PD. Thanks for the suggestion! I sent the URL to a friend who's really good at buying stuff from China. > If you have a known working set up (say the official Thinkpad charger > and laptop) you can plug the charger into the power monitor, then > connect the power monitor to the laptop with a suspect USB cable. You > will then see on the power monitor screen whether it jumps up to 20 > volts (meaning the suspect cable is good) or whether it stays at the > standard 5 volts (meaning the suspect cable is not PD-compatible so > it can only be used for basic USB 2.0-compatible charging). The power monitor has a male USB-C connector to go to the PSU and a female one to go to the device being charged. So to put it between a laptop and a laptop PSU I'll need 2 adaptors. On Monday, 28 November 2022 19:38:15 AEDT Paul Wayper via linux-aus wrote: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#USB_Power_Delivery > > If the new 30W charger does actually deliver 20V, then it's under-spec - the > minimum should be 45W. The documentation says it does 15V-2A and 20V-1.5A. > So why were we trying to get a low power charger? I don't find the Thinkpad > one very bulky... is it? It's not that big, but when you already have an inverter for powering things in a car it adds up. Also I can fit my Thinkpad in my jacket pocket and a small charger takes less space in one of my other pockets. On Monday, 28 November 2022 21:10:31 AEDT James Henstridge via linux-aus wrote: > You can sometimes find some information in /sys/class/typec as described > here: > > https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-typec > > However, it really depends on what information the hardware exposes to > the OS. I've got an X1 Gen5, and only a small amount of that info is > exposed (at least on kernel 5.19: there's no ). I think most of the > USB-PD stuff is being handled in the firmware without the OS's > involvement. Maybe it's all in firmware, those sysfs entries gave me nothing about the connector. KDE got the data somehow so I'd like to know where that came from. > The spec sheet for the laptop seems to indicate that it won't fast > charge with the official 45W charger, so I suspect a 30W charger won't > cut it. > > https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_5th_Gen > /ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_5th_Gen_Spec.PDF That's a possibility, I'll buy the 68W version of the same thing and hope it gives a better result. Thanks for all the advice! -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: charge.png Type: image/png Size: 18413 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Mon Nov 28 23:39:59 2022 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 22:39:59 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] USB-C chargers In-Reply-To: <5125904.2VHbPRQshP@xev> References: <5043905.yaVYbkx8dN@xev> <20221128175332.742d32ac@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> <5125904.2VHbPRQshP@xev> Message-ID: <20221128223959.12558d24@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > I've attached a message I get from KDE when I hover the mouse over the battery > icon, it says "The power supply is not powerful enough to charge the battery". > > My problem is that I don't know enough about this topic to know what to look > for. It would be interesting to see what a USB power monitor says in this situation. I guess the laptop needs more than the 1.5 A the charger can deliver. > I know the USB-C cables work for "fast charge" of phones. I don't know if > that means much, probably not. "Fast charge" usually refers to various proprietary standards that came about before USB-PD was designed in an attempt to replace them all with a vendor-agnostic solution. Fast charge usually doesn't need any extra signal wires in the cable beyond what came with USB 2.0, but it has various other limitations (requiring certified cables to get peak power, not allowing data and charging at the same time, etc.) > Thanks for the suggestion! I sent the URL to a friend who's really good at > buying stuff from China. For the record, Aliexpress is very straightforward to use. You just have to put in the effort to pick out the fake products from the real ones, and test everything that gets delivered so you can claim a refund if you were sent a lesser version of what was advertised. Oh and be prepared to wait 2-6 weeks for delivery. But they have things you can't buy anywhere else. > The power monitor has a male USB-C connector to go to the PSU and a female one > to go to the device being charged. So to put it between a laptop and a laptop > PSU I'll need 2 adaptors. If you get adapters, remember they are just as suspect as USB-C cables. So you'll need to independently verify that each adapter correctly works for USB-PD before you rely on it when testing other devices. > > So why were we trying to get a low power charger? I don't find the Thinkpad > > one very bulky... is it? > > It's not that big, but when you already have an inverter for powering things > in a car it adds up. Also I can fit my Thinkpad in my jacket pocket and a > small charger takes less space in one of my other pockets. I assume you've looked at USB-C PD car chargers? A quick Google for "thinkpad car charger" shows a few that run off 12 V and can deliver 90 watts which should have no trouble charging any USB-C laptop, and as a bonus, they don't need the inverter running as they run off 12 V directly. But they probably aren't any physically smaller than what you have now, although maybe you can leave it in the car permanently instead of having to carry it with you. Cheers, Adam.