From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Fri Sep 14 17:19:02 2018 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:19:02 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Academy of Science calls for input on 10-year Women in STEM plan Message-ID: If anyone would like to work on a submission from the Linux Australia community, let me know. https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-releases/australian-academy-science-calls-input-women-stem-10-year-0 Best, Kathy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pEpkey.asc Type: application/pgp-keys Size: 2456 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aj at erisian.com.au Sun Sep 23 08:37:37 2018 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 08:37:37 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? Message-ID: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> Hey *, I came across the following claim in the context of the recent Linux CoC changes: ] It?s also important to note that four of the Linux Foundation ] Technical Advisory Board members did not sign off on the new Code of ] Conduct. One of them is Ted Tso, who was banned from Linux Conf ] Australia for questioning rape statistics on the conference mailing ] list. https://otter.technology/blog/2018/09/20/linux-kernel-hastily-adopts-standard-code-of-conduct/ Is that true? [0] I had noticed he didn't seem to be at LCA as much any more, but looking now it seems like he hasn't given a talk at any LCA since 2011 in Brisbane, which was the incident mentioned above. I'd kind of figured that Ted just didn't find LCA as fun anymore, especially given Valerie Aurora and Matthew Garrett did a big PR thing in Oct 2012 [1] attacking him as a rape apologist based on the Jan 2011 thread. I can see how you'd see that and say "you know, these aren't my people" and not want to visit even without a ban. (Also, lca201{1,2,3,4}.linux.org.au seem to be down...) Cheers, aj [0] Or is there an unofficial ban where eg a sufficient subset of papers committee members just ensure his papers never get selected, or something similar? [1] https://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/57290-garrett-slams-tso-as-rape-apologist From president at linux.org.au Sun Sep 23 16:36:46 2018 From: president at linux.org.au (Linux Australia President) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:36:46 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> Message-ID: <604e77c7-286f-0ef0-fc58-5618c4b7d529@linux.org.au> Hi aj, Thanks for raising this issue. 2011 was before my time on Council, I'd like to take a few days to ensure I have correct information before responding officially. Best, Kathy On 23/09/18 08:37, Anthony Towns via linux-aus wrote: > Hey *, > > I came across the following claim in the context of the recent Linux > CoC changes: > > ] It?s also important to note that four of the Linux Foundation > ] Technical Advisory Board members did not sign off on the new Code of > ] Conduct. One of them is Ted Tso, who was banned from Linux Conf > ] Australia for questioning rape statistics on the conference mailing > ] list. > > https://otter.technology/blog/2018/09/20/linux-kernel-hastily-adopts-standard-code-of-conduct/ > > Is that true? [0] > > I had noticed he didn't seem to be at LCA as much any more, but looking > now it seems like he hasn't given a talk at any LCA since 2011 in > Brisbane, which was the incident mentioned above. > > I'd kind of figured that Ted just didn't find LCA as fun anymore, > especially given Valerie Aurora and Matthew Garrett did a big PR thing > in Oct 2012 [1] attacking him as a rape apologist based on the Jan 2011 > thread. I can see how you'd see that and say "you know, these aren't my > people" and not want to visit even without a ban. > > (Also, lca201{1,2,3,4}.linux.org.au seem to be down...) > > Cheers, > aj > > [0] Or is there an unofficial ban where eg a sufficient subset of papers > committee members just ensure his papers never get selected, or > something similar? > > [1] https://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/57290-garrett-slams-tso-as-rape-apologist > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -- Kathy Reid President Linux Australia 0418 130 636 president at linux.org.au http://linux.org.au Linux Australia Inc GPO Box 4788 Sydney NSW 2001 Australia ABN 56 987 117 479 From russell at coker.com.au Sun Sep 30 10:27:09 2018 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 10:27:09 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> Message-ID: <4786551.GDDc3MrxUh@xev> On Sunday, 23 September 2018 8:37:37 AM AEST Anthony Towns via linux-aus wrote: > I came across the following claim in the context of the recent Linux > CoC changes: > > ] It?s also important to note that four of the Linux Foundation > ] Technical Advisory Board members did not sign off on the new Code of > ] Conduct. One of them is Ted Tso, who was banned from Linux Conf > ] Australia for questioning rape statistics on the conference mailing > ] list. > > https://otter.technology/blog/2018/09/20/linux-kernel-hastily-adopts-standar > d-code-of-conduct/ > > Is that true? [0] I have a vague recollection of seeing Ted at LCA after 2011. It would be good to check the records of who attended to verify that. It's quite rare for someone to be banned from LCA and I'm sure if Ted was it would have been widely noted. https://etbe.coker.com.au/2011/02/10/lca2011-harassment/ https://etbe.coker.com.au/2012/11/08/rape-apology-lca2011/ I sent email to Ted after writing one of the above blog posts but he never replied. I guess he doesn't want to talk to me any more. > I had noticed he didn't seem to be at LCA as much any more, but looking > now it seems like he hasn't given a talk at any LCA since 2011 in > Brisbane, which was the incident mentioned above. > > I'd kind of figured that Ted just didn't find LCA as fun anymore, > especially given Valerie Aurora and Matthew Garrett did a big PR thing > in Oct 2012 [1] attacking him as a rape apologist based on the Jan 2011 > thread. I can see how you'd see that and say "you know, these aren't my > people" and not want to visit even without a ban. https://np237.livejournal.com/34959.html If his statements were misinterpreted in any way then he can correct the record at any time he wishes. If he decides that he was wrong in the past he can state his new opinions at any time. Others have done so. > [0] Or is there an unofficial ban where eg a sufficient subset of papers > committee members just ensure his papers never get selected, or > something similar? Not accepting an offer of a lecture is not the same as banning someone. You can have fun at LCA without speaking. You can have fun at LCA while only speaking at mini-confs or BoFs. If someone refuses to attend a conference because they didn't make one of the best talk offers that the organisers received that's their choice. The idea that having an offer accepted by the LCA papers committee is some sort of status symbol doesn't seem to be a good one. > [1] > https://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/57290-garrett-slams-tso > -as-rape-apologist -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From simon at darkmere.gen.nz Sun Sep 30 13:53:14 2018 From: simon at darkmere.gen.nz (Simon Lyall) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 16:53:14 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: <4786551.GDDc3MrxUh@xev> References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> <4786551.GDDc3MrxUh@xev> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2018, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > >> [0] Or is there an unofficial ban where eg a sufficient subset of papers >> committee members just ensure his papers never get selected, or >> something similar? > > Not accepting an offer of a lecture is not the same as banning someone. You > can have fun at LCA without speaking. You can have fun at LCA while only > speaking at mini-confs or BoFs. Seriously Russell? If there is a policy that no talk proposals from Ted will be accepted then he is effectively "banned from speaking" at the conference. That is what the original question is asking. If LCA had a policy of not accepting talks from employees of Google and then used your language to justify it was not a "ban" they would look ridiculous. Separately from that there may be a policy that registrations from him will not be accepted or even one that the Police (etc) will be called if he is seen at the venue. This could be justified under a reasoning that some other attendees would feel unsafe if he is around. Note: I am not aware if any such policy is in place nor if Ted has submitted proposals, attempted to register or attended LCA since 2011. -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar From russell at coker.com.au Sun Sep 30 14:28:22 2018 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 14:28:22 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> <4786551.GDDc3MrxUh@xev> Message-ID: <1666955.mF7uFgqK7V@xev> On Sunday, 30 September 2018 1:53:14 PM AEST Simon Lyall via linux-aus wrote: > On Sun, 30 Sep 2018, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > >> [0] Or is there an unofficial ban where eg a sufficient subset of papers > >> > >> committee members just ensure his papers never get selected, or > >> something similar? > > > > Not accepting an offer of a lecture is not the same as banning someone. > > You can have fun at LCA without speaking. You can have fun at LCA while > > only speaking at mini-confs or BoFs. > > Seriously Russell? If there is a policy that no talk proposals from Ted > will be accepted then he is effectively "banned from speaking" at the > conference. That is what the original question is asking. There is no evidence for any such policy. There is merely an observation that he has not given a lecture. Sometimes people who have given good lectures in the past get declined because their recent offerings don't seem so interesting. There's lots of reasons for not accepting an offer of a lecture, especially with a conference like LCA that is not short of offers. Here is a reminder of what I was responding to: On Sunday, 23 September 2018 8:37:37 AM AEST Anthony Towns via linux-aus wrote: # ] Conduct. One of them is Ted Tso, who was banned from Linux Conf # ] Australia for questioning rape statistics on the conference mailing > If LCA had a policy of not accepting talks from employees of Google and > then used your language to justify it was not a "ban" they would look > ridiculous. If someone claimed that Google employees had been banned then they would look ridiculous if it turned out that Google employees just hadn't made lecture offers that are sufficiently interesting. > Separately from that there may be a policy that registrations from him > will not be accepted or even one that the Police (etc) will be called if > he is seen at the venue. This could be justified under a reasoning that > some other attendees would feel unsafe if he is around. > > Note: I am not aware if any such policy is in place nor if Ted has > submitted proposals, attempted to register or attended LCA since 2011. Ted, have you ever been banned from an LCA? Have you been told that lecture offers from you will not be accepted? Have you made offers of lectures at LCA that have been rejected since LCA 2011? If so do you think that other people just made offers that seemed more interesting or do you think there is a policy to blacklist you? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From president at linux.org.au Sun Sep 30 14:39:43 2018 From: president at linux.org.au (Linux Australia President) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 14:39:43 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: <1666955.mF7uFgqK7V@xev> References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> <4786551.GDDc3MrxUh@xev> <1666955.mF7uFgqK7V@xev> Message-ID: LA Council is not aware of any ban, nor can we find evidence of any ban previously being in place. Kind regards, Kathy On 30/09/18 14:28, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > On Sunday, 30 September 2018 1:53:14 PM AEST Simon Lyall via linux-aus wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Sep 2018, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: >>>> [0] Or is there an unofficial ban where eg a sufficient subset of papers >>>> >>>> committee members just ensure his papers never get selected, or >>>> something similar? >>> Not accepting an offer of a lecture is not the same as banning someone. >>> You can have fun at LCA without speaking. You can have fun at LCA while >>> only speaking at mini-confs or BoFs. >> Seriously Russell? If there is a policy that no talk proposals from Ted >> will be accepted then he is effectively "banned from speaking" at the >> conference. That is what the original question is asking. > There is no evidence for any such policy. There is merely an observation that > he has not given a lecture. Sometimes people who have given good lectures in > the past get declined because their recent offerings don't seem so > interesting. There's lots of reasons for not accepting an offer of a lecture, > especially with a conference like LCA that is not short of offers. > > Here is a reminder of what I was responding to: > > On Sunday, 23 September 2018 8:37:37 AM AEST Anthony Towns via linux-aus > wrote: > # ] Conduct. One of them is Ted Tso, who was banned from Linux Conf > # ] Australia for questioning rape statistics on the conference mailing > >> If LCA had a policy of not accepting talks from employees of Google and >> then used your language to justify it was not a "ban" they would look >> ridiculous. > If someone claimed that Google employees had been banned then they would look > ridiculous if it turned out that Google employees just hadn't made lecture > offers that are sufficiently interesting. > >> Separately from that there may be a policy that registrations from him >> will not be accepted or even one that the Police (etc) will be called if >> he is seen at the venue. This could be justified under a reasoning that >> some other attendees would feel unsafe if he is around. >> >> Note: I am not aware if any such policy is in place nor if Ted has >> submitted proposals, attempted to register or attended LCA since 2011. > Ted, have you ever been banned from an LCA? > > Have you been told that lecture offers from you will not be accepted? > > Have you made offers of lectures at LCA that have been rejected since LCA > 2011? If so do you think that other people just made offers that seemed more > interesting or do you think there is a policy to blacklist you? > -- Kathy Reid President Linux Australia 0418 130 636 president at linux.org.au http://linux.org.au Linux Australia Inc GPO Box 4788 Sydney NSW 2001 Australia ABN 56 987 117 479 From aj at erisian.com.au Sun Sep 30 16:05:30 2018 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 16:05:30 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> <4786551.GDDc3MrxUh@xev> <1666955.mF7uFgqK7V@xev> Message-ID: <536C38F9-3544-4F53-A174-192B8630F7AC@erisian.com.au> Thanks for looking into it, Kathy and council! Cheers, aj -- Sent from my phone. From russell at coker.com.au Sun Sep 30 16:10:44 2018 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 16:10:44 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ted Tso banned from lca? In-Reply-To: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> References: <20180922223737.3zu6l3c3myt2zcn6@erisian.com.au> Message-ID: <2698638.eaNOGjyKYK@xev> On Sunday, 23 September 2018 8:37:37 AM AEST Anthony Towns via linux-aus wrote: > ] It?s also important to note that four of the Linux Foundation > ] Technical Advisory Board members did not sign off on the new Code of > ] Conduct. One of them is Ted Tso, who was banned from Linux Conf > ] Australia for questioning rape statistics on the conference mailing > ] list. > > https://otter.technology/blog/2018/09/20/linux-kernel-hastily-adopts-standar > d-code-of-conduct/ > > Is that true? [0] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Rape_apology_on_LCA_mailing_list Anthony, the blog post you cited gave the above URL to support it's claim about Ted being banned. The only incidence of the word "banned" in that Wiki page is where David Zanetti is quoted as stating a belief that Ted should be banned. As far as I am aware David Zanetti has never been in a position to ban people from LCA, so while his opinion is an indication of how seriously people take this issue there's no reason to think it indicates Linux Australia policy. I don't think Otter Technology wrote a good blog post about this. Anyway there seems to be an informal tradition of having one contentious issue to flame about at each LCA. I guess this will be the issue for LCA 2019. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/