From stewart at flamingspork.com Wed Jun 1 14:21:11 2016 From: stewart at flamingspork.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 14:21:11 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BC79E2.5060803@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <006601d164c2$ac0e8200$042b8600$@adam.com.au> <56BC79E2.5060803@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <87zir5iloo.fsf@flamingspork.com> I fully realise I'm a couple of months behind on reading this, but thought I'd add in 2c from perspective of someone who wrote/maintained/didn't maintain MemberDB over the years. Kathy Reid writes: > It's a fair question David - and perhaps I haven't outlined the problem > we're trying to solve clearly. > > The current MemberDB has *broken* functionality in the following ways: > > * Membership reporting is inconsistent, and we require consistent > reporting to meet compliance requirements under the Fair Trading Act > (NSW), as LA is an incorporated association. No doubt. Better than the nothing that was there before, which really isn't a high bar. I'm *thrilled* you're taking on the task of wrangling something better! > * The platform itself is aged, and runs on a difficult to support code > base (an old version of PHP) As the primary author of said difficult to support codebase, I'm 100% behind the idea of using as much as possible of existing projects. Back when MemberDB started, there was nothing else - there was no CiviCRM (there was possibly no Drupal even). If there's one thing I've learnt it's that free time to maintain software is hard to come by, especially something that's niche infrastructure to an org and isn't part of a larger platform of tools. > The current MemberDB has functionality *gaps* in the following ways: > > * Memberships are not renewed, so we don't havea way to expire, or > confirm currency of Membership I'm semi-sure that expirations work, renewals do require SQL INSERT statements though, which is... user hostile. > * There are no targeted communications functionality - so we can't > email subsets of Members, such as those in Victoria, those who are > female - to provide useful information > * We use a variety of tools to manage memberships of committees, and > the current Membership platform does not make this easier. I'd add to the list pretty much every feature it does have isn't really a decent modern implementation of how someone would expect it to work. > A list of requirements was started at; > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tyTA3Fj5J9XL2D7UTIxw46smXGrLM5J-fI4g6GxK9hM/edit?usp=sharing This is great! It looks as if CiviCRM fufills so many of the requirements that even for the bits that it doesn't, NRE work to make it do that would be maybe a good idea. I think the idea of LA financing development of missing features should certainly be explored From stewart at flamingspork.com Wed Jun 1 14:24:47 2016 From: stewart at flamingspork.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 14:24:47 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <20160211144622.GA29604@sapphire.erisian.com.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <006601d164c2$ac0e8200$042b8600$@adam.com.au> <56BC79E2.5060803@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211144622.GA29604@sapphire.erisian.com.au> Message-ID: <87wpm9ilio.fsf@flamingspork.com> Anthony Towns writes: > On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:09:06PM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: >> The current MemberDB has *broken* functionality in the following ways: > > Other misfeatures: > > * The election system doesn't handle ties (as we've seen this > election) This is totally my fault. I remember getting to that scenario when coding and just going "well, no idea what *should* happen - we'll jump off that bridge when we come to it" - turns out I was fine for about 12 years :) > * At least historically, the election system wasn't really terribly > secure against local attacks; but maybe that's been fixed Not really. Access to database lets you change anything without really any auditable audit trail. Not sure that's a huge problem though? From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 6 20:51:58 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:51:58 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc Message-ID: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-linux- australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. Comments are open. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From andrew at sericyb.com.au Mon Jun 6 23:24:07 2016 From: andrew at sericyb.com.au (Andrew Pam) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 23:24:07 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> On 06/06/16 20:51, Russell Coker wrote: > http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-linux- > australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html > > The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. Comments > are open. And sadly the comments are filled with self-centred outrage, claims that Russell's requests for some sensitivity in the use of language are "bullying" and complaints about "SJWs". Oh no! Russell is infringing on people's free speech by politely disagreeing! It's political correctness gone mad! I understand that people are upset about the underlying issues, but this is a poorly written article and the publication sorely needs a community manager to keep the comments on track. Regards, Andrew From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 6 23:48:29 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 23:48:29 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> Message-ID: <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:24:07 PM Andrew Pam wrote: > On 06/06/16 20:51, Russell Coker wrote: > > http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-lin > > ux- australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html > > > > The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. > > Comments are open. > > And sadly the comments are filled with self-centred outrage, claims that > Russell's requests for some sensitivity in the use of language are > "bullying" and complaints about "SJWs". Oh no! Russell is infringing > on people's free speech by politely disagreeing! It's political > correctness gone mad! I understand that people are upset about the > underlying issues, but this is a poorly written article and the > publication sorely needs a community manager to keep the comments on track. It's doubly ironic that the Anonymous Coward is complaining that I'm infringing his freedom of speech. The first irony is that he believes that his free speech requires that I have no free speech - free speech is not freedom from people disagreeing, it's freedom for everyone to disagree! The second irony is that if IT Wire weren't so committed to this type of free speech they would have cut him off long ago. But the comment thread is educational. Even by Internet standards it's uncommon to see so much stupidity concentrated in one place. I will blog about this. Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints that could be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one noteworthy point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for hosting. It would be good if the council could answer that. I don't think that LA should necessarily pay for hosting, but I think it would be good if the members know what services are in use and why the decision was made to not use Linode, Hetzner, EC2, and other options. As an aside the LUV server is now a VM on a Hetzner server. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From hugh at blemings.org Mon Jun 6 23:58:56 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 23:58:56 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <1e827dfb-9733-9fe6-1d30-97a4cf614341@blemings.org> Hi, I'm burning the midnight oil a bit this evening and so have consciously not weighed in to the veracity of the article or comment threads that followed. One thing I will note though picking up on Russell's query is that we're working with the Admin team to explore future hosting options. Part of this includes consideration of the balance of hosting services along the lines of those mentioned. Will keep ya'll posted :) Cheers, Hugh Weary President From lists at fukawi2.nl Tue Jun 7 11:49:35 2016 From: lists at fukawi2.nl (Phillip Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 11:49:35 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On 6 June 2016 at 23:48, Russell Coker wrote: > > Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints that > could > be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one > noteworthy > point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for hosting. > ?While the article itself retains the journalistic integrity of a flock of seagulls, I do agree that the core point? regarding hosting is a reasonable observation. It does seem strange to me that LA would rely on donated hosting when a reasonable VPS from the likes of Linode can be had for under $500/year. A cluster of machines to allow for separation of services could be had for under $1,000. These don't seem too unreasonable given the profit figures quoted in the article -- perhaps those are not accurate figures? If the concern is the Linux *Australia* having services hosted overseas, there are the likes of Binary Lane providing comparable hosting services in Australia. LCA sponsor Anchor Hosting is in Sydney, or Catalyst (another sponsor of LCA) have their cloud offering based in NZ. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikal at stillhq.com Tue Jun 7 11:57:08 2016 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 11:57:08 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Phillip Smith wrote: > On 6 June 2016 at 23:48, Russell Coker wrote: > >> >> Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints that >> could >> be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one >> noteworthy >> point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for hosting. >> > > ?While the article itself retains the journalistic integrity of a flock of > seagulls, I do agree that the core point? regarding hosting is a reasonable > observation. > > It does seem strange to me that LA would rely on donated hosting when a > reasonable VPS from the likes of Linode can be had for under $500/year. A > cluster of machines to allow for separation of services could be had for > under $1,000. These don't seem too unreasonable given the profit figures > quoted in the article -- perhaps those are not accurate figures? > If the concern is the Linux *Australia* having services hosted overseas, > there are the likes of Binary Lane providing comparable hosting services in > Australia. LCA sponsor Anchor Hosting is in Sydney, or Catalyst (another > sponsor of LCA) have their cloud offering based in NZ. > If there are well provisioned datacenters offering to host things for free (on real hardware owned by LA), why would you pay for commercial virtual hosting though? These servers are effectively professionally hosted, just at a price of $0 each. They're not in a cupboard, they're in million dollar datacenter facilities. Now, VPAC shut down and that's sad, but that's a very unusual edge case -- its the equivalent of binary lane going bankrupt. Do you think that would be handled well either? Or do you think they'd just lock the doors and walk away or have the gear repossessed? My point being that the underlying premise of the article is wrong. The fact that no money changed hands for the hosting doesn't mean the hosting was inherently unprofessional in some way. It means the donating organisation saw value in the work LA does and wanted to support that work in a tangible way. That sort of arrangement should be applauded. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noel.butler at ausics.net Tue Jun 7 14:53:48 2016 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 14:53:48 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On 06/06/2016 23:48, Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:24:07 PM Andrew Pam wrote: >> On 06/06/16 20:51, Russell Coker wrote: >> > http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-lin >> > ux- australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html >> > >> > The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. >> > Comments are open. >> >> And sadly the comments are filled with self-centred outrage, claims >> that >> Russell's requests for some sensitivity in the use of language are >> "bullying" and complaints about "SJWs". Oh no! Russell is infringing >> on people's free speech by politely disagreeing! It's political >> correctness gone mad! I understand that people are upset about the >> underlying issues, but this is a poorly written article and the >> publication sorely needs a community manager to keep the comments on >> track. > > It's doubly ironic that the Anonymous Coward is complaining that I'm > infringing his freedom of speech. The first irony is that he believes > that his > free speech requires that I have no free speech - free speech is not > freedom > from people disagreeing, it's freedom for everyone to disagree! The > second > irony is that if IT Wire weren't so committed to this type of free > speech they > would have cut him off long ago. > > But the comment thread is educational. Even by Internet standards it's > uncommon to see so much stupidity concentrated in one place. I will > blog > about this. > > Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints > that could > be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one > noteworthy > point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for > hosting. It > would be good if the council could answer that. I don't think that LA > should > necessarily pay for hosting, but I think it would be good if the > members know > what services are in use and why the decision was made to not use > Linode, > Hetzner, EC2, and other options. > > As an aside the LUV server is now a VM on a Hetzner server. Virtual services are more prone to outages then real hardware SANs are notoriously unreliable - we've seen them blamed for many virt env outages. real daemons running on real disks and not from a big file are far far far more efficient. You know your hardware, so if it fails its your fault. You know your hardware so you know what it is capable of As for external hosting with the above named services, multiple ip ranges of them, especially hetzner and linode are dnsbl'd. The right decision to buy and use our own hardware. The wrong decision to keep expecting an org like this with healthy bank account to get free hosting.When you dont pay for it you are of course at the mercy of someone elses generosity. when you pay for it, you end up with SLA;s. Lastly, the fact no one took ownership and worked day in day out to move it after being given notice reflects poorly upon that team, and the fact nobody did squat till it was too late, that entire team should be asked to resign, i'm actually serious, in fact if they had any ounce of decency, theyd offer up their resignations - In the real world out there, yes the $dayjobs, do you think your employers would give you that option if you did it to them? no, theyd have security escort you off premises so fast youd be wondering what just happened. -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ From josh at nitrotech.org Tue Jun 7 15:07:17 2016 From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:07:17 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <57565685.4050506@nitrotech.org> On 07/06/16 14:53, Noel Butler wrote: > Lastly, the fact no one took ownership and worked day in day out to > move it after being given notice reflects poorly upon that team, and > the fact nobody did squat till it was too late, that entire team > should be asked to resign, i'm actually serious, in fact if they had > any ounce of decency, theyd offer up their resignations - In the real > world out there, yes the $dayjobs, do you think your employers would > give you that option if you did it to them? no, theyd have security > escort you off premises so fast youd be wondering what just happened. > > > Hello Noel, As I understand it the volunteers were indeed working very hard ahead of the problem to resolve the issue. I think the news article misses some parts of the official notice from the council (which can be found here: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2016-April/022691.html). The team had been working on and getting ready to move to a new hosting facility. There was time available but due to the server mistakenly being taken offline things became more urgent. See the following extract from the council's email: > ### How was this allowed to occur? > > Whilst Linux Australia had undertaken all possible means to ensure the > equipment was identified as belonging to the organisation, ownership > was mistakenly attributed to a Victorian linux users group, who also > had equipment hosted in the room. The room was decommissioned at 9 > weeks ahead of the last shutdown date given, which meant that > migration works had not yet been completed. Cheers, Josh -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mikal at stillhq.com Tue Jun 7 15:18:12 2016 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:18:12 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Noel, welcome to my kill file. Michael On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Noel Butler wrote: > On 06/06/2016 23:48, Russell Coker wrote: > >> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:24:07 PM Andrew Pam wrote: >> >>> On 06/06/16 20:51, Russell Coker wrote: >>> > >>> http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-lin >>> > ux- australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html >>> > >>> > The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. >>> > Comments are open. >>> >>> And sadly the comments are filled with self-centred outrage, claims that >>> Russell's requests for some sensitivity in the use of language are >>> "bullying" and complaints about "SJWs". Oh no! Russell is infringing >>> on people's free speech by politely disagreeing! It's political >>> correctness gone mad! I understand that people are upset about the >>> underlying issues, but this is a poorly written article and the >>> publication sorely needs a community manager to keep the comments on >>> track. >>> >> >> It's doubly ironic that the Anonymous Coward is complaining that I'm >> infringing his freedom of speech. The first irony is that he believes >> that his >> free speech requires that I have no free speech - free speech is not >> freedom >> from people disagreeing, it's freedom for everyone to disagree! The >> second >> irony is that if IT Wire weren't so committed to this type of free speech >> they >> would have cut him off long ago. >> >> But the comment thread is educational. Even by Internet standards it's >> uncommon to see so much stupidity concentrated in one place. I will blog >> about this. >> >> Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints that >> could >> be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one >> noteworthy >> point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for >> hosting. It >> would be good if the council could answer that. I don't think that LA >> should >> necessarily pay for hosting, but I think it would be good if the members >> know >> what services are in use and why the decision was made to not use Linode, >> Hetzner, EC2, and other options. >> >> As an aside the LUV server is now a VM on a Hetzner server. >> > > Virtual services are more prone to outages then real hardware > SANs are notoriously unreliable - we've seen them blamed for many virt env > outages. > real daemons running on real disks and not from a big file are far far far > more efficient. > You know your hardware, so if it fails its your fault. > You know your hardware so you know what it is capable of > > As for external hosting with the above named services, multiple ip ranges > of them, especially hetzner and linode are dnsbl'd. > > The right decision to buy and use our own hardware. > The wrong decision to keep expecting an org like this with healthy bank > account to get free hosting.When you dont pay for it you are of course at > the mercy of someone elses generosity. when you pay for it, you end up with > SLA;s. > > Lastly, the fact no one took ownership and worked day in day out to move > it after being given notice reflects poorly upon that team, and the fact > nobody did squat till it was too late, that entire team should be asked to > resign, i'm actually serious, in fact if they had any ounce of decency, > theyd offer up their resignations - In the real world out there, yes the > $dayjobs, do you think your employers would give you that option if you did > it to them? no, theyd have security escort you off premises so fast youd be > wondering what just happened. > > > > > > > > -- > If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best > first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- Rackspace Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtbell91 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 15:23:29 2016 From: dtbell91 at gmail.com (David Bell) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:23:29 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Noel, You do realise that Linux Australia's Admin Team (and the Council, conference teams, mirror team, web team, etc) is made up of volunteers? Volunteers who maintain LA's infrastructure in their spare time, out of their own good will for no material benefit whatsoever? David On 7 June 2016 at 14:53, Noel Butler wrote: > On 06/06/2016 23:48, Russell Coker wrote: > >> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:24:07 PM Andrew Pam wrote: >> >>> On 06/06/16 20:51, Russell Coker wrote: >>> > >>> http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-lin >>> > ux- australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html >>> > >>> > The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. >>> > Comments are open. >>> >>> And sadly the comments are filled with self-centred outrage, claims that >>> Russell's requests for some sensitivity in the use of language are >>> "bullying" and complaints about "SJWs". Oh no! Russell is infringing >>> on people's free speech by politely disagreeing! It's political >>> correctness gone mad! I understand that people are upset about the >>> underlying issues, but this is a poorly written article and the >>> publication sorely needs a community manager to keep the comments on >>> track. >>> >> >> It's doubly ironic that the Anonymous Coward is complaining that I'm >> infringing his freedom of speech. The first irony is that he believes >> that his >> free speech requires that I have no free speech - free speech is not >> freedom >> from people disagreeing, it's freedom for everyone to disagree! The >> second >> irony is that if IT Wire weren't so committed to this type of free speech >> they >> would have cut him off long ago. >> >> But the comment thread is educational. Even by Internet standards it's >> uncommon to see so much stupidity concentrated in one place. I will blog >> about this. >> >> Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints that >> could >> be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one >> noteworthy >> point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for >> hosting. It >> would be good if the council could answer that. I don't think that LA >> should >> necessarily pay for hosting, but I think it would be good if the members >> know >> what services are in use and why the decision was made to not use Linode, >> Hetzner, EC2, and other options. >> >> As an aside the LUV server is now a VM on a Hetzner server. >> > > Virtual services are more prone to outages then real hardware > SANs are notoriously unreliable - we've seen them blamed for many virt env > outages. > real daemons running on real disks and not from a big file are far far far > more efficient. > You know your hardware, so if it fails its your fault. > You know your hardware so you know what it is capable of > > As for external hosting with the above named services, multiple ip ranges > of them, especially hetzner and linode are dnsbl'd. > > The right decision to buy and use our own hardware. > The wrong decision to keep expecting an org like this with healthy bank > account to get free hosting.When you dont pay for it you are of course at > the mercy of someone elses generosity. when you pay for it, you end up with > SLA;s. > > Lastly, the fact no one took ownership and worked day in day out to move > it after being given notice reflects poorly upon that team, and the fact > nobody did squat till it was too late, that entire team should be asked to > resign, i'm actually serious, in fact if they had any ounce of decency, > theyd offer up their resignations - In the real world out there, yes the > $dayjobs, do you think your employers would give you that option if you did > it to them? no, theyd have security escort you off premises so fast youd be > wondering what just happened. > > > > > > > > -- > If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best > first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikal at stillhq.com Tue Jun 7 15:27:53 2016 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:27:53 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:23 PM, David Bell wrote: > Noel, > > You do realise that Linux Australia's Admin Team (and the Council, > conference teams, mirror team, web team, etc) is made up of volunteers? > Volunteers who maintain LA's infrastructure in their spare time, out of > their own good will for no material benefit whatsoever? > I disagree, there are benefits of volunteering for Linux Australia -- a warm fuzzy feeling; a chance to play with things that work may not be interested in (yet); smart team mates to learn from; professional network building; and most important of all it gives you a clear signal of who to never ever ever hire [1]. Michael 1: By which I mean the people who interact with the team poorly, not those inside the team. -- Rackspace Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtbell91 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 15:32:28 2016 From: dtbell91 at gmail.com (David Bell) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:32:28 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: The key word was "material". No pay, no goodies, no freebies. I understand thoroughly the intangible benefits of volunteering, I'm totally hooked by them. Emails such as Noel's make me question my commitment to this community. Why did I have all of those sleepless nights stressing over LCA2016? Why did I use all of that annual leave to run the conference? Why have I offered to join the Admin Team out of my personal time? Guess I'm just living for that warm fuzzy feeling. David On 7 June 2016 at 15:27, Michael Still wrote: > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:23 PM, David Bell wrote: > >> Noel, >> >> You do realise that Linux Australia's Admin Team (and the Council, >> conference teams, mirror team, web team, etc) is made up of volunteers? >> Volunteers who maintain LA's infrastructure in their spare time, out of >> their own good will for no material benefit whatsoever? >> > > I disagree, there are benefits of volunteering for Linux Australia -- a > warm fuzzy feeling; a chance to play with things that work may not be > interested in (yet); smart team mates to learn from; professional network > building; and most important of all it gives you a clear signal of who to > never ever ever hire [1]. > > Michael > > 1: By which I mean the people who interact with the team poorly, not those > inside the team. > > -- > Rackspace Australia > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrpurser at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 15:32:48 2016 From: jamesrpurser at gmail.com (James Purser) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 05:32:48 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Sooo, based off an article who's entire source was a post on the mailing list (no follow up, no asking for more information), from an organisation that has been hostile to LA for a while now, some have decided that everyone sucks and should be ashamed or some such nonsense. Excellent, it's been a while since I've had a look here, but it all seems to be going along as normal. On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 at 15:26 David Bell wrote: > Noel, > > You do realise that Linux Australia's Admin Team (and the Council, > conference teams, mirror team, web team, etc) is made up of volunteers? > Volunteers who maintain LA's infrastructure in their spare time, out of > their own good will for no material benefit whatsoever? > > David > > On 7 June 2016 at 14:53, Noel Butler wrote: > >> On 06/06/2016 23:48, Russell Coker wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:24:07 PM Andrew Pam wrote: >>> >>>> On 06/06/16 20:51, Russell Coker wrote: >>>> > >>>> http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/72843-lin >>>> > ux- australia-hosting-woes-to-continue-under-current-mindset.html >>>> > >>>> > The above article will probably be of interest to some people here. >>>> > Comments are open. >>>> >>>> And sadly the comments are filled with self-centred outrage, claims that >>>> Russell's requests for some sensitivity in the use of language are >>>> "bullying" and complaints about "SJWs". Oh no! Russell is infringing >>>> on people's free speech by politely disagreeing! It's political >>>> correctness gone mad! I understand that people are upset about the >>>> underlying issues, but this is a poorly written article and the >>>> publication sorely needs a community manager to keep the comments on >>>> track. >>>> >>> >>> It's doubly ironic that the Anonymous Coward is complaining that I'm >>> infringing his freedom of speech. The first irony is that he believes >>> that his >>> free speech requires that I have no free speech - free speech is not >>> freedom >>> from people disagreeing, it's freedom for everyone to disagree! The >>> second >>> irony is that if IT Wire weren't so committed to this type of free >>> speech they >>> would have cut him off long ago. >>> >>> But the comment thread is educational. Even by Internet standards it's >>> uncommon to see so much stupidity concentrated in one place. I will blog >>> about this. >>> >>> Back to the content of the article, while there are some complaints that >>> could >>> be made about it (apart from the one I made) I think there is one >>> noteworthy >>> point. The question is asked why doesn't Linux Australia pay for >>> hosting. It >>> would be good if the council could answer that. I don't think that LA >>> should >>> necessarily pay for hosting, but I think it would be good if the members >>> know >>> what services are in use and why the decision was made to not use Linode, >>> Hetzner, EC2, and other options. >>> >>> As an aside the LUV server is now a VM on a Hetzner server. >>> >> >> Virtual services are more prone to outages then real hardware >> SANs are notoriously unreliable - we've seen them blamed for many virt >> env outages. >> real daemons running on real disks and not from a big file are far far >> far more efficient. >> You know your hardware, so if it fails its your fault. >> You know your hardware so you know what it is capable of >> >> As for external hosting with the above named services, multiple ip ranges >> of them, especially hetzner and linode are dnsbl'd. >> >> The right decision to buy and use our own hardware. >> The wrong decision to keep expecting an org like this with healthy bank >> account to get free hosting.When you dont pay for it you are of course at >> the mercy of someone elses generosity. when you pay for it, you end up with >> SLA;s. >> >> Lastly, the fact no one took ownership and worked day in day out to move >> it after being given notice reflects poorly upon that team, and the fact >> nobody did squat till it was too late, that entire team should be asked to >> resign, i'm actually serious, in fact if they had any ounce of decency, >> theyd offer up their resignations - In the real world out there, yes the >> $dayjobs, do you think your employers would give you that option if you did >> it to them? no, theyd have security escort you off premises so fast youd be >> wondering what just happened. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best >> first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikal at stillhq.com Tue Jun 7 15:38:40 2016 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:38:40 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:32 PM, David Bell wrote: > The key word was "material". No pay, no goodies, no freebies. > > I understand thoroughly the intangible benefits of volunteering, I'm > totally hooked by them. > Emails such as Noel's make me question my commitment to this community. > Yeah, that's fair. I was just looking for a way to sarcastically remind people that prospective employers know how to google things, and you were the lucky winner. My apologies, and please accept this muffin basket as a way of an apology. Michael -- Rackspace Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Tue Jun 7 15:54:58 2016 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 15:54:58 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <1465278898.2778.47.camel@stuart.id.au> On Tue, 2016-06-07 at 05:32 +0000, James Purser wrote: > from an organisation that has been hostile to LA for a while now I'm sure these trolling pieces are very rewarding for them. ?We bite so hard every time. From hugh at blemings.org Tue Jun 7 16:46:16 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:46:16 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] On Perspective Message-ID: Hi, I confess a degree of regret on having to write this and that the matter of the VPAC events have taken the turn they have. For that matter I also dearly wish more of our membership would reflect on whether the email they're about to send will move the commons of Linux and Free/Open Source Software forward, or merely make them feel better in the moment. In this I do not refer alone to the current threads on the Linux-aus mailing list but rather the general trend over nearly two decades for an undue percentage of the traffic on the linux-aus list to be griping/trolling and then - often left to volunteers - defending actions, justifying decisions and so forth. This latter all too often _literally_ consuming hours of discussion, debate and checking to ensure a measured and appropriate response or solution to the crisis du jour. And so to perspective... Linux Australia and its membership do fantastic and, often, important work. Much of it is unseen, most of the time things done right, fun is had, code is written, people learn new things, a career is started, perhaps even a career advanced and so forth. All great stuff. Also, for most of us, the sole motivation for being involved as volunteers. But I'm struck that we sometimes lose perspective about the importance, in the grander scheme of things, of what we do. To start, I was, frankly, a bit annoyed that our infrastructure went offline precipitously but upon hearing the full story, once our very able admin team had extinguished most of the fires, this annoyance all but dissipated entirely. But the thing that really allowed me, for want of a better term, to find peace with the situation was the realisation that actually - it didn't really matter. Nobody died, no one lost revenue, no LA events were dramatically impacted. What we do is fantastic, important and useful, but it isn't (and probably shouldn't) be _mission critical_. This is not to say for a moment that we shouldn't take our responsibilities or the work undertaken seriously, but rather that we should weigh the matter at hand in a broader light. Please - reflect and decide if an email that will ultimately come down to the criticism of an organisation, a team or an individual is warranted, or could perhaps be written in a more constructive tone. Last time I checked we were, at the end of the day, trying to accomplish largely the same set of fantastic, important and fun, but probably not mission critical things... Perhaps then space to allow our interactions online and in person to better reflect these shared goals ? Thank you for reading, Kind Regards, Hugh Blemings President, Linux Australia From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jun 7 16:53:57 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:53:57 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <201606071653.57959.russell@coker.com.au> On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:53:48 PM Noel Butler wrote: > > As an aside the LUV server is now a VM on a Hetzner server. > > Virtual services are more prone to outages then real hardware > SANs are notoriously unreliable - we've seen them blamed for many virt > env outages. You can't directly compare things. Linode has a virtual server offering that is quite reliable and gives good management options. While a Linode VM will in some ways be less reliable than direct hardware access the options for management and recovery improve reliability and having Linode manage all the physical hardware offers benefits over running it all in-house. I've had a lot of experience running servers for various organisations in various locations. My experience is that Linode offers better uptime due to their management. The LUV server is a VM on a hardware system that I have root on. The Dom0 deliberately has a fairly minimal configuration and most things are run on DomUs. When there are problems with the LUV VM I can reboot it without risk as I can do whatever is necessary from the Dom0 to fix things. For example I once had what should have been a routine upgrade crash and result in the LUV server being offline for 12 hours at VPAC until I could visit and fix it. The exact same crash on the Hetzner VM would be fixed in minutes from Dom0. The exact same crash on the Hetzner Dom0 would be fixed in less than an hour from the Hetzner recovery system. On Linode it would also be fixed in less than an hour from their management console. > real daemons running on real disks and not from a big file are far far > far more efficient. That depends on what you are doing. Linode uses SSD and will outperform any real disk. Hetzner servers have the option of using SSD, in the affordable options of Hetzner servers you can have 2*512G SSD or 2*4TB disk. Linode had some disk performance issues before they moved to SSD, but with SSD performance is always great. > You know your hardware, so if it fails its your fault. > You know your hardware so you know what it is capable of There are economies of scale in running hundreds or thousands of identical systems. > As for external hosting with the above named services, multiple ip > ranges of them, especially hetzner and linode are dnsbl'd. I haven't had problems with that in the past. But really no matter what IP ranges you use there are always possible problems. On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 03:07:17 PM Joshua Hesketh wrote: > > Whilst Linux Australia had undertaken all possible means to ensure the > > equipment was identified as belonging to the organisation, ownership > > was mistakenly attributed to a Victorian linux users group, who also > > had equipment hosted in the room. The room was decommissioned at 9 > > weeks ahead of the last shutdown date given, which meant that > > migration works had not yet been completed. In retrospect it would have been a better idea for LA to work with people from LUV in arranging these things. VPAC had 3 active LUV members on staff who might have been available to help out. Also it it might be a good idea to contact locals wheneven LA is doing something in a particular region, I'm sure that there are other LUV members who could have helped. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From mattcen at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 16:55:04 2016 From: mattcen at gmail.com (Matthew Cengia) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:55:04 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] On Perspective In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 I think "perspective," "constructive," "volunteers," and "importance" are the key words I take from this email. I don't think there's anything I can say that you haven't already articulated, Hugh. Well done. To all LA volunteers. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > I confess a degree of regret on having to write this and that the matter > of the VPAC events have taken the turn they have. > > For that matter I also dearly wish more of our membership would reflect on > whether the email they're about to send will move the commons of Linux and > Free/Open Source Software forward, or merely make them feel better in the > moment. > > In this I do not refer alone to the current threads on the Linux-aus > mailing list but rather the general trend over nearly two decades for an > undue percentage of the traffic on the linux-aus list to be > griping/trolling and then - often left to volunteers - defending actions, > justifying decisions and so forth. > > This latter all too often _literally_ consuming hours of discussion, > debate and checking to ensure a measured and appropriate response or > solution to the crisis du jour. > > And so to perspective... > > Linux Australia and its membership do fantastic and, often, important > work. Much of it is unseen, most of the time things done right, fun is > had, code is written, people learn new things, a career is started, perhaps > even a career advanced and so forth. All great stuff. Also, for most of > us, the sole motivation for being involved as volunteers. > > But I'm struck that we sometimes lose perspective about the importance, in > the grander scheme of things, of what we do. > > To start, I was, frankly, a bit annoyed that our infrastructure went > offline precipitously but upon hearing the full story, once our very able > admin team had extinguished most of the fires, this annoyance all but > dissipated entirely. > > But the thing that really allowed me, for want of a better term, to find > peace with the situation was the realisation that actually - it didn't > really matter. > > Nobody died, no one lost revenue, no LA events were dramatically > impacted. What we do is fantastic, important and useful, but it isn't (and > probably shouldn't) be _mission critical_. > > This is not to say for a moment that we shouldn't take our > responsibilities or the work undertaken seriously, but rather that we > should weigh the matter at hand in a broader light. > > Please - reflect and decide if an email that will ultimately come down to > the criticism of an organisation, a team or an individual is warranted, or > could perhaps be written in a more constructive tone. > > Last time I checked we were, at the end of the day, trying to accomplish > largely the same set of fantastic, important and fun, but probably not > mission critical things... Perhaps then space to allow our interactions > online and in person to better reflect these shared goals ? > > Thank you for reading, > > Kind Regards, > Hugh Blemings > President, Linux Australia > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- Regards, Matthew Cengia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.carden at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 17:03:09 2016 From: mike.carden at gmail.com (Mike Carden) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:03:09 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] On Perspective In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all. I'd just like to thank Hugh for his considered and insightful analysis of this issue. It's very easy for any one of us to get 'head down and bum up' in a debate and not take the time to pause, think, and appreciate the bigger picture. I have at times been as guilty as anyone of losing sight of objectivity and focusing on individuals rather than on what we are collectively hoping to achieve, but I would like to think that I have matured to not do that, and perhaps others might do that too. Cheers, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ac at main.me Tue Jun 7 17:06:38 2016 From: ac at main.me (ac) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:06:38 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] On Perspective In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160607073653.1E58F66C2@mailhost.linux.org.au> hear hear On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:55:04 +1000 Matthew Cengia wrote: > +1 > > I think "perspective," "constructive," "volunteers," and "importance" > are the key words I take from this email. I don't think there's > anything I can say that you haven't already articulated, Hugh. Well > done. To all LA volunteers. > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Hugh Blemings > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I confess a degree of regret on having to write this and that the > > matter of the VPAC events have taken the turn they have. > > > > For that matter I also dearly wish more of our membership would > > reflect on whether the email they're about to send will move the > > commons of Linux and Free/Open Source Software forward, or merely > > make them feel better in the moment. > > > > In this I do not refer alone to the current threads on the Linux-aus > > mailing list but rather the general trend over nearly two decades > > for an undue percentage of the traffic on the linux-aus list to be > > griping/trolling and then - often left to volunteers - defending > > actions, justifying decisions and so forth. > > > > This latter all too often _literally_ consuming hours of discussion, > > debate and checking to ensure a measured and appropriate response or > > solution to the crisis du jour. > > > > And so to perspective... > > > > Linux Australia and its membership do fantastic and, often, > > important work. Much of it is unseen, most of the time things done > > right, fun is had, code is written, people learn new things, a > > career is started, perhaps even a career advanced and so forth. > > All great stuff. Also, for most of us, the sole motivation for > > being involved as volunteers. > > > > But I'm struck that we sometimes lose perspective about the > > importance, in the grander scheme of things, of what we do. > > > > To start, I was, frankly, a bit annoyed that our infrastructure went > > offline precipitously but upon hearing the full story, once our > > very able admin team had extinguished most of the fires, this > > annoyance all but dissipated entirely. > > > > But the thing that really allowed me, for want of a better term, to > > find peace with the situation was the realisation that actually - > > it didn't really matter. > > > > Nobody died, no one lost revenue, no LA events were dramatically > > impacted. What we do is fantastic, important and useful, but it > > isn't (and probably shouldn't) be _mission critical_. > > > > This is not to say for a moment that we shouldn't take our > > responsibilities or the work undertaken seriously, but rather that > > we should weigh the matter at hand in a broader light. > > > > Please - reflect and decide if an email that will ultimately come > > down to the criticism of an organisation, a team or an individual > > is warranted, or could perhaps be written in a more constructive > > tone. > > > > Last time I checked we were, at the end of the day, trying to > > accomplish largely the same set of fantastic, important and fun, > > but probably not mission critical things... Perhaps then space to > > allow our interactions online and in person to better reflect these > > shared goals ? > > > > Thank you for reading, > > > > Kind Regards, > > Hugh Blemings > > President, Linux Australia > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > > From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Tue Jun 7 19:11:31 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 19:11:31 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] On Perspective In-Reply-To: <20160607073653.1E58F66C2@mailhost.linux.org.au> References: <20160607073653.1E58F66C2@mailhost.linux.org.au> Message-ID: <57568FC3.2030806@kathyreid.id.au> Couldn't agree more. Thoughtful, reflective and as always encouraging us to be our collective best. Thanks Hugh. On 07/06/16 17:06, ac wrote: > hear hear > > On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:55:04 +1000 > Matthew Cengia wrote: > >> +1 >> >> I think "perspective," "constructive," "volunteers," and "importance" >> are the key words I take from this email. I don't think there's >> anything I can say that you haven't already articulated, Hugh. Well >> done. To all LA volunteers. >> >> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Hugh Blemings >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I confess a degree of regret on having to write this and that the >>> matter of the VPAC events have taken the turn they have. >>> >>> For that matter I also dearly wish more of our membership would >>> reflect on whether the email they're about to send will move the >>> commons of Linux and Free/Open Source Software forward, or merely >>> make them feel better in the moment. >>> >>> In this I do not refer alone to the current threads on the Linux-aus >>> mailing list but rather the general trend over nearly two decades >>> for an undue percentage of the traffic on the linux-aus list to be >>> griping/trolling and then - often left to volunteers - defending >>> actions, justifying decisions and so forth. >>> >>> This latter all too often _literally_ consuming hours of discussion, >>> debate and checking to ensure a measured and appropriate response or >>> solution to the crisis du jour. >>> >>> And so to perspective... >>> >>> Linux Australia and its membership do fantastic and, often, >>> important work. Much of it is unseen, most of the time things done >>> right, fun is had, code is written, people learn new things, a >>> career is started, perhaps even a career advanced and so forth. >>> All great stuff. Also, for most of us, the sole motivation for >>> being involved as volunteers. >>> >>> But I'm struck that we sometimes lose perspective about the >>> importance, in the grander scheme of things, of what we do. >>> >>> To start, I was, frankly, a bit annoyed that our infrastructure went >>> offline precipitously but upon hearing the full story, once our >>> very able admin team had extinguished most of the fires, this >>> annoyance all but dissipated entirely. >>> >>> But the thing that really allowed me, for want of a better term, to >>> find peace with the situation was the realisation that actually - >>> it didn't really matter. >>> >>> Nobody died, no one lost revenue, no LA events were dramatically >>> impacted. What we do is fantastic, important and useful, but it >>> isn't (and probably shouldn't) be _mission critical_. >>> >>> This is not to say for a moment that we shouldn't take our >>> responsibilities or the work undertaken seriously, but rather that >>> we should weigh the matter at hand in a broader light. >>> >>> Please - reflect and decide if an email that will ultimately come >>> down to the criticism of an organisation, a team or an individual >>> is warranted, or could perhaps be written in a more constructive >>> tone. >>> >>> Last time I checked we were, at the end of the day, trying to >>> accomplish largely the same set of fantastic, important and fun, >>> but probably not mission critical things... Perhaps then space to >>> allow our interactions online and in person to better reflect these >>> shared goals ? >>> >>> Thank you for reading, >>> >>> Kind Regards, >>> Hugh Blemings >>> President, Linux Australia >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From russell at coker.com.au Fri Jun 10 21:37:57 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:37:57 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] More about VPAC Message-ID: <201606102137.57225.russell@coker.com.au> http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/73280-itwire- shows-linux-australia-the-right-way-to-host-a-server.html IT Wire has published another article on this topic. In response to my complaint they have no mention of Autism, instead they reference Mr Bean... -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From jamesrpurser at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 22:42:26 2016 From: jamesrpurser at gmail.com (James Purser) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:42:26 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] More about VPAC In-Reply-To: <201606102137.57225.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606102137.57225.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Honestly can we not? On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, 9:38 PM Russell Coker wrote: > > http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/73280-itwire- > shows-linux-australia-the-right-way-to-host-a-server.html > > > IT Wire has published another article on this topic. > > In response to my complaint they have no mention of Autism, instead they > reference Mr Bean... > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at blemings.org Tue Jun 14 10:33:43 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:33:43 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Hosting conversations Message-ID: <37b14e90-ba3d-2bbe-ba62-a126970998cf@blemings.org> Hi, As has been pointed out by a couple of folk, iTWire published a further opinion piece by David Williams about the hosting arrangements for Linux Australia on Friday of last week. [0] While one might quibble over some of what was said, at its core fair points are made and for that matter, points that we've actually discussed in Council recently albeit not flagged well enough to the Membership. As an aside, personally, despite the odd bit of friction between LA and iTWire in the past I reckon iTWire do a nice job of promoting FOSS to their readership and did so for quite some time before Linux/FOSS became business as usual for the industry and/or fashionable! And to break the fourth wall for a moment - yes David, I consciously meant to include civility to tech journos and the organisations they work for in my list of "...an organisation, a team or an individual..." in my earlier email [1] :) But I digress! So yes, actually, paying for hosting in virtual environments or co-location or some combination of both is something that is being actively discussed. As an organisation we are fortunate to have good cash reserves and prospects of continuing to do so, hence the imposition of a monthly bill for such facility/capability isn't out of the question. We need to be careful with longer term commitments to substantial monthly outlays but we also have long term data that allows sensible contemplation of future financial positions. We discussed the use of commercial hosting etc. at the Council's Face to Face session in Melbourne in May and the consensus was that we should dig into this further. [2] I was fortunate enough to be able to catch up with our Admin team lead mid last week and have asked that we progress this as a matter of priority. Unsurprisingly this was already on their radar and is being actively considered, their Jedi powers clearly strong :) I remain confident that we can strike the right balance between owning our own kit, hosting it appropriately and making use of commercial VPS style arrangements. I am also confident that these decisions can be actioned in a timely manner before we hit further problems of the kind already experienced. Finally, I'm grateful for the efforts of all our Volunteers, Members and other advocates for Linux and FOSS wherever/however it may be that they contribute to the commons :) Kind Regards, Hugh President, Linux Australia [0] http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/the-linux-distillery/73280-itwire-shows-linux-australia-the-right-way-to-host-a-server.html [1] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2016-June/022744.html [2] In the interests of transparency I note that some members of Council work for companies that provide such facilities on a commercial basis. This probably disposes some of us, myself included, more towards the use of commercial hosting facilities than less. As such when final deliberations are held on this we'll draw on the range of backgrounds of Council and Admin team members and select a group such that we don't inadvertently weigh things one way or the other. From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 20 13:34:57 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:34:57 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum Message-ID: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum Due to his long history of sexually abusing many people Jacob is no longer involved with Tor, Cult of the Dead Cow, Noisebridge, Chaos Computer Club, and Debian. I think he should not be allowed to attend LCA in future. Also I think that as he was an LCA keynote speaker and has a history of sexually abusing other delegates at computer conferences (in a gross violation of every CoC) I think that Linux Australia should make a public statement about this. Jacob has a history of using positions of influence and respect to exploit people, we don't want his history as an LCA keynote speaker to be used for that. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From hugh at blemings.org Mon Jun 20 13:51:56 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:51:56 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Hi, On 20/06/2016 13:34, Russell Coker wrote: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum > > [...] Thank you Russell for flagging this. It is on our agenda for the regularly scheduled council meeting tomorrow evening, I'll defer further commentary until after same. Thanks again, Kind Regards, Hugh President, Linux Australia From fusionman133 at gmx.de Mon Jun 20 17:25:58 2016 From: fusionman133 at gmx.de (Andri Effendi) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:25:58 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum Message-ID: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> Hi Community, People should not pass automatic guilt judgment regardless of what ever rumors or claims are going around. Accusations of sexual "miss treatment" have been floating around, but no evidence or legal proceedings have proven that they are true. You must prove a person's guilt in court before jumping the gun and banning them from everything. What do the Free Software, Free Culture, Privacy, Hacker, Digital Rights communities stand for? Justice? Innocent till proven guilty? Due Process? Privacy? Truth? Facts? or Injustice? Guilty till proven innocent? Mass Suspicion without Due Process? Distortion of Facts? Believing anything your told without question? When something is said 1000s of times it must be true? Claims like this: "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" Joseph Goebbels. What do WE stand for?? I stand for that Jacob Appelbaum is presumed innocent until Proven Guilty. Any damaging claims that are unfounded can lead to defamation/libel law suits and also Put an innocent persons Life in serious jeopardy. Is banning Jacob Appelbaum from the community that he has paid a significant price (his life) in order to be part of, without due process is acceptable nowadays in this community? Treating Jacob Appelbaum as guilty automatically without going through the Legal System to prove guilt undoes everything our community supposedly believes in. We must seriously think of the very likely possibility that this was a setup, as Jacob Appelbaum has been seen as a threat to the powers at be, for a very long time because of his journalistic work, TOR Project work and other activities. It has been a PROVEN FACT that GCHQ has a program for psychological manipulation and there are slides that show the tactics they use on "targets" to ruin a persons life. For this look at the ED SNOWDEN Documents: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ This is not dissimilar to what has happened. Someone(s) has setup a blog by people purporting to be his victims. They've contacted Colleagues, neighbors and Friends. If this community is to stand by its own values, we must presume Jacob Appelbaum is Innocent until Proven Guilty. Otherwise this might as well be the spanish inquisition. Kind Regards, -- Andri GPG fingerprint: 8438 138D ECDA 05E0 591F F2B4 4721 0F03 AC24 DF73 Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted. From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 20 17:57:03 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:57:03 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> Message-ID: <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 05:25:58 PM Andri Effendi wrote: > People should not pass automatic guilt judgment regardless of what ever > rumors or claims are going around. It's not rumors, it's clear reports from people who are known to be trustworthy and reliable. > Accusations of sexual "miss treatment" have been floating around, but no > evidence or legal proceedings have proven that they are true. > > You must prove a person's guilt in court before jumping the gun and > banning them from everything. You must prove guilt in court before sentencing them to jail. We are not talking about sentencing him to jail, just declining to do business with him. It's quite common for businesses to ban customers for a variety of reasons. > Claims like this: "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" > Joseph Goebbels. That's a Godwin violation right there. > What do WE stand for?? > > I stand for that Jacob Appelbaum is presumed innocent until Proven Guilty. > > Any damaging claims that are unfounded can lead to defamation/libel law > suits and also Put an innocent persons Life in serious jeopardy. You can permit him to attend any conferences you run. > Is banning Jacob Appelbaum from the community that he has paid a > significant price (his life) in order to be part of, without due process > is acceptable nowadays in this community? He is still alive, that price hasn't been paid. > Treating Jacob Appelbaum as guilty automatically without going through > the Legal System to prove guilt undoes everything our community > supposedly believes in. Not at all. He has already been expelled from many organisations he was a member of. > We must seriously think of the very likely possibility that this was a > setup, as Jacob Appelbaum has been seen as a threat to the powers at be, > for a very long time because of his journalistic work, TOR Project work > and other activities. They could have got rid of him at any time by planting some drugs in his luggage. Why would they instead spend years coercing a variety of well known people into making false accusations? Your claim just doesn't make any sense. > Otherwise this might as well be the spanish inquisition. I'm not aware of any Spanish Inquisition that banned people from attending conferences. I am aware of a Spanish Inquisition that tortured and murdered people. Can you provide a citation about that other Spanish Inquisition that I have never heard of? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From noel.butler at ausics.net Mon Jun 20 19:28:51 2016 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:28:51 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <57565685.4050506@nitrotech.org> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> <57565685.4050506@nitrotech.org> Message-ID: On 07/06/2016 15:07, Joshua Hesketh wrote: > > Hello Noel, > > As I understand it the volunteers were indeed working very hard ahead > of > the problem to resolve the issue. I think the news article misses some > parts of the official notice from the council (which can be found here: > http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2016-April/022691.html). > > The team had been working on and getting ready to move to a new hosting > facility. There was time available but due to the server mistakenly > being taken offline things became more urgent. See the following > extract > from the council's email: > Josh, thats all fine, I can accept they seem to have based their time frame on the one given to them, but in the real world when you are told somethings coming to an end, you move immediately, its not you have to go *in* 3 months, its you have to go *within* 3 months - ASAP, its not like we have a complex network like the CBA or ATO which obviously cant be moved overnight. Hopefully lessons have been learned, and paid contracted and therefore SLA'd, colo-ing is first on the agenda. -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ From noel.butler at ausics.net Mon Jun 20 19:37:11 2016 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:37:11 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <57557977.4030301@sericyb.com.au> <201606062348.29802.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <8a1905f603574f67ce9b1bc281231125@ausics.net> On 07/06/2016 15:32, David Bell wrote: > The key word was "material". No pay, no goodies, no freebies. > > I understand thoroughly the intangible benefits of volunteering, I'm totally hooked by them. > Emails such as Noel's make me question my commitment to this community. If you are a lazy person that takes several months to move your gear, maybe you should look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. I spend around 20 hours a week volunteering for a local community organisation, I take the same approach to it that I do in my commercial world, the day I get up and question that commitment is the day I need to leave it to someone else with the commitment. Volunteering requires a level of commitment... Harsh words? Maybe, but I don't live under a rock, don't expect someone else has it in hand, dont go round with fingers in my ears or walk on cotton friggin wool :) -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noel.butler at ausics.net Mon Jun 20 19:42:59 2016 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:42:59 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <3ab067a26123fe443312b366c55c1d11@ausics.net> On 20/06/2016 17:57, Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 05:25:58 PM Andri Effendi wrote: > >> We must seriously think of the very likely possibility that this was a >> setup, as Jacob Appelbaum has been seen as a threat to the powers at >> be, >> for a very long time because of his journalistic work, TOR Project >> work >> and other activities. > > They could have got rid of him at any time by planting some drugs in > his > luggage. Why would they instead spend years coercing a variety of well > known > people into making false accusations? Your claim just doesn't make any > sense. This is a few weeks old and just recovering from hte flu, my memory might be a bit hazy still, but. IIRC, Appelbaum resigned from TOR... innocent people don't tend to resign, and there are far too many willing to speak out about him. I for one support his vanishing, no place in this world for people who act that way towards others. -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ From fusionman133 at gmx.de Mon Jun 20 20:37:53 2016 From: fusionman133 at gmx.de (Andri Effendi) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:37:53 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> Simply saying "It's clear reports from people who are known to be trustworthy and reliable" does not prove anything. Take the "Clear" reports to a court of law. > You must prove guilt in court before sentencing them to jail. We are > not > talking about sentencing him to jail, just declining to do business > with him. It's not up to you (the persons who are purporting to be victims) to take the law in to your own hands. Are you concerned that turning to the legal system may prove his innocence? > It's quite common for businesses to ban customers for a variety of > reasons. This is not about someone being banned from going into Walmart or the Local Pub. Comparing what these defamatory accusations are doing to Jacob Appelbaum with banning customers from a business is just offensive and ridiculous. > That's a Godwin violation right there. Why don't you use the word conspiracy theory or Tin foil hat instead? Because it is just as ridiculous. Are you denying that you presume Jacob Appelbaum is guilty before proven innocent? > You can permit him to attend any conferences you run. Your evasion of my initial question is clear. > He is still alive, that price hasn't been paid. Jacob Appelbaum has been constantly putting his life on the line for everyone! Again you avoided the question. Do you not think about the consequences of others wanting to take the law into their own hands and hurting Jacob Appelbaum because of these accusations they have been told? > Not at all. He has already been expelled from many organisations he > was a > member of. You mean to tell me that expelling someone from their livelihood shortly after RUMORS and Conjecture is a mere coincidence and not a prejudgment of him? Put your self in his situation. (assuming that he is innocent) Some Blog, as well as other rumors of you committing an offense are made which are untrue , and you vehemently deny those accusations. Yet because of the coordination of the attack on your reputation by these accusations, you loose your job, reputation, livelihood and even your life is put in danger. The Legal System exists for a reason. If a Crime has been committed you take it to authorities. You don't take the law into your own hands and make it your mission to destroy the persons life callously and carelessly otherwise you are committing crimes and are a perpetrator, NOT a Victim. > They could have got rid of him at any time by planting some drugs in > his > luggage. Why would they instead spend years coercing a variety of > well known > people into making false accusations? Your claim just doesn't make > any sense. I can't pretend to know the answer for that, only some of the variables. Like they tried, but they were unable to. Or that if they did, the public wouldn't believe it. However when more accusations of sexual misconduct are made the adversary knows or predicts that the public will TURN regardless of the Facts. > I'm not aware of any Spanish Inquisition that banned people from > attending > conferences. I am aware of a Spanish Inquisition that tortured and > murdered > people. Can you provide a citation about that other Spanish > Inquisition that I have never heard of? "The denunciations were anonymous, and the defendants had no way of knowing the identities of their accusers. This was one of the points most criticized by those who opposed the Inquisition (for example, the Cortes of Castile, in 1518). In practice, false denunciations were frequent. Denunciations were made for a variety of reasons, from genuine concern, to rivalries and personal jealousies." [1] I am awaiting your next distorter word in the place of "Godwin Violation" for this other historical reference. In Conclusion to this email, I do not claim to have incontrovertible proof that the defamatory accusations are lies. That does not change the fact that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. The damage that has been caused by the manner in which the alleged "victims" went about disclosing these accusations is irrefutable, dishonorable and in contradiction to the spirit of what our community believes in. If Jacob is found guilty of committing crimes by a jury of his peers and all the preceding appellate court judgments, then let Jacob's future be decided that way. That is how justice is made! Not by biasing public opinion with blogs of people purporting to be "victims" and then ruining Jacobs Life on a personal level. And then Spray painting houses with "A rapist lives here" which could put the lives of those who live in those buildings in danger. That is not justice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Accusation -- Andri GPG fingerprint: 8438 138D ECDA 05E0 591F F2B4 4721 0F03 AC24 DF73 Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted. From fusionman133 at gmx.de Mon Jun 20 21:08:50 2016 From: fusionman133 at gmx.de (Andri Effendi) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:08:50 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> Message-ID: <5767CEC2.8000507@gmx.de> A correction to a statement in my last email. "If Jacob is found guilty of committing crimes by a jury of his peers and all the preceding appellate court judgments, then let Jacob's future be decided that way." I mean to say the Succeeding rather than "preceding". -- Andri GPG fingerprint: 8438 138D ECDA 05E0 591F F2B4 4721 0F03 AC24 DF73 Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted. From ac at main.me Mon Jun 20 21:33:24 2016 From: ac at main.me (ac) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:33:24 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <201606201757.03477.russell@coker.com.au> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> I do not understand this thread at all, sorry, I am obviously not as bright as you guys and gals, so please bear with me. Is this person, Jacob Appelbaum, out on bail pending a trial for sexual crimes and, are we saying that membership of something or speaking at somewhere should be suspended pending the investigation and outcome of these criminal charges? - If yes, I do agree with that so +1 for me Why is this discussion so convoluted and difficult to understand when the the ethics, morals and philosophy is so very very easy? ========== If the person has been convicted in a respected court of law (is guilty of a crime or crimes) why are we even talking about this? If the person has not been found guilty, by any court at all, of any crime, why are we even talking about this? =========== On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:37:53 +0000 Andri Effendi wrote: > Simply saying "It's clear reports from people who are known to be > trustworthy and reliable" does not prove anything. > > Take the "Clear" reports to a court of law. > > > You must prove guilt in court before sentencing them to jail. We > > are not > > talking about sentencing him to jail, just declining to do business > > with him. > > It's not up to you (the persons who are purporting to be victims) to > take the law in to your own hands. > > Are you concerned that turning to the legal system may prove his > innocence? > > > > It's quite common for businesses to ban customers for a variety of > > reasons. > This is not about someone being banned from going into Walmart or the > Local Pub. > > Comparing what these defamatory accusations are doing to Jacob > Appelbaum with banning customers from a business is just offensive > and ridiculous. > > > That's a Godwin violation right there. > Why don't you use the word conspiracy theory or Tin foil hat instead? > Because it is just as ridiculous. > > Are you denying that you presume Jacob Appelbaum is guilty before > proven innocent? > > > You can permit him to attend any conferences you run. > Your evasion of my initial question is clear. > > > He is still alive, that price hasn't been paid. > Jacob Appelbaum has been constantly putting his life on the line for > everyone! Again you avoided the question. > > Do you not think about the consequences of others wanting to take the > law into their own hands and hurting Jacob Appelbaum because of these > accusations they have been told? > > > > Not at all. He has already been expelled from many organisations > > he > > was a > > member of. > You mean to tell me that expelling someone from their livelihood > shortly after RUMORS and Conjecture is a mere coincidence and not a > prejudgment of him? > > Put your self in his situation. (assuming that he is innocent) > Some Blog, as well as other rumors of you committing an offense are > made which are untrue , and you vehemently deny those accusations. > > Yet because of the coordination of the attack on your reputation by > these accusations, you loose your job, reputation, livelihood and even > your life is put in danger. > > The Legal System exists for a reason. > If a Crime has been committed you take it to authorities. > > You don't take the law into your own hands and make it your mission to > destroy the persons life callously and carelessly otherwise you are > committing crimes and are a perpetrator, NOT a Victim. > > > > They could have got rid of him at any time by planting some drugs > > in > > his > > luggage. Why would they instead spend years coercing a variety of > > well known > > people into making false accusations? Your claim just doesn't make > > any sense. > I can't pretend to know the answer for that, only some of the > variables. Like they tried, but they were unable to. > Or that if they did, the public wouldn't believe it. > > However when more accusations of sexual misconduct are made the > adversary knows or predicts that the public will TURN regardless of > the Facts. > > > I'm not aware of any Spanish Inquisition that banned people from > > attending > > conferences. I am aware of a Spanish Inquisition that tortured and > > murdered > > people. Can you provide a citation about that other Spanish > > Inquisition that I have never heard of? > > "The denunciations were anonymous, and the defendants had no way of > knowing the identities of their accusers. This was one of the points > most criticized by those who opposed the Inquisition (for example, the > Cortes of Castile, in 1518). In practice, false denunciations were > frequent. Denunciations were made for a variety of reasons, from > genuine concern, to rivalries and personal jealousies." [1] > > I am awaiting your next distorter word in the place of "Godwin > Violation" for this other historical reference. > In Conclusion to this email, I do not claim to have incontrovertible > proof that the defamatory accusations are lies. > > That does not change the fact that the burden of proof lies with the > prosecution. > > The damage that has been caused by the manner in which the alleged > "victims" went about disclosing these accusations is irrefutable, > dishonorable and in contradiction to the spirit of what our community > believes in. > > If Jacob is found guilty of committing crimes by a jury of his peers > and all the preceding appellate court judgments, then let Jacob's > future be decided that way. > > That is how justice is made! > Not by biasing public opinion with blogs of people purporting to be > "victims" and then ruining Jacobs Life on a personal level. > > And then Spray painting houses with "A rapist lives here" which could > put the lives of those who live in those buildings in danger. > > That is not justice. > > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Accusation > > > From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 20 23:33:50 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 23:33:50 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> Message-ID: <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:33:24 PM ac wrote: > I do not understand this thread at all, sorry, I am obviously not as > bright as you guys and gals, so please bear with me. You said it. > Is this person, Jacob Appelbaum, out on bail pending a trial for sexual > crimes and, are we saying that membership of something or speaking at > somewhere should be suspended pending the investigation and outcome of > these criminal charges? - If yes, I do agree with that so +1 for me We are not discussing jailing him or imposing any other punishment. Merely not allowing him to use LCA as a way of finding future victims. > Why is this discussion so convoluted and difficult to understand when > the the ethics, morals and philosophy is so very very easy? It really is very easy. Keep dangerous people away from potential victims. Don't let evil people corrupt our community, they can never ever do enough work to make up for the contributions from people they drive away. https://medium.com/@violetblue/but-he-does-good-work-6710df9d9029#.wdyho4sty Read the above for more background information on this. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 20 23:43:04 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 23:43:04 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <8a1905f603574f67ce9b1bc281231125@ausics.net> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <8a1905f603574f67ce9b1bc281231125@ausics.net> Message-ID: <201606202343.04764.russell@coker.com.au> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:37:11 PM Noel Butler wrote: > Volunteering requires a level of commitment... > > Harsh words? Maybe, but I don't live under a rock, don't expect someone > else has it in hand, dont go round with fingers in my ears or walk on > cotton friggin wool :) You are being too harsh. There are lots of reasons why volunteers can become unavailable to do things that they had committed to do. Even paid people don't always do what they had been paid to do. Ideally there will be people monitoring the process and looking for other options if things aren't proceeding to plan. One thing that was cited as a partial explanation for the problems was confusion about who owned which machine. It seems to me that this could have been alleviated if the LA people had worked with the LUV people. I wouldn't have told the VPAC people to unplug the LUV server if I thought there was a possibility of active LA servers being unplugged at the same time (NB I told them to unplug exactly one server - they shouldn't have unplugged more than one). -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From fusionman133 at gmx.de Tue Jun 21 00:36:38 2016 From: fusionman133 at gmx.de (Andri Effendi) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:36:38 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <5767FF76.7020700@gmx.de> Basically what is happening is that some people in this community have decided to act as judge and jury without any respect for due process or the rule of law. By someone's own admission: "we are not discussing jailing him or imposing any other punishment. Merely not allowing him to use LCA as a way of finding future victims." These are the people are playing Judge and Jury. Yet they have the nerve to say: "Don't let evil people corrupt our community" If there is "evil people" in our community they should PROVE IT, but instead they are not going to. If Jacob Appelbaum is the person that these people say he is. Why don't they prove it? Why don't they take it to the proper authorities? I would have nothing against a proper lawful investigation. Because guilty people must face justice, Under the Law. People can't just make these aggressive accusations without reporting it to the authorities where it can be officially investigated. I can not speak for anyone here, but I do suspect I am not the only suspicious one. From ac at main.me Tue Jun 21 00:42:57 2016 From: ac at main.me (ac) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:42:57 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <20160620144141.D594F6788@mailhost.linux.org.au> so,according to you, you, or some website decides who is evil and whom not or this community has to take a vote on who is/are sexual predators or robbers, scammers or whatever. hmm, I get this thread now, thank you so much for making it very clear that there is nothing to understand. Are you also proposing that you also be banned from representing or speaking on behalf of anyone yourself? Your own views and opinions are quite dangerous as well. On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 23:33:50 +1000 Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:33:24 PM ac wrote: > > I do not understand this thread at all, sorry, I am obviously not as > > bright as you guys and gals, so please bear with me. > > You said it. > > > Is this person, Jacob Appelbaum, out on bail pending a trial for > > sexual crimes and, are we saying that membership of something or > > speaking at somewhere should be suspended pending the investigation > > and outcome of these criminal charges? - If yes, I do agree with > > that so +1 for me > > We are not discussing jailing him or imposing any other punishment. > Merely not allowing him to use LCA as a way of finding future victims. > > > Why is this discussion so convoluted and difficult to understand > > when the the ethics, morals and philosophy is so very very easy? > > It really is very easy. Keep dangerous people away from potential > victims. Don't let evil people corrupt our community, they can never > ever do enough work to make up for the contributions from people they > drive away. > > https://medium.com/@violetblue/but-he-does-good-work-6710df9d9029#.wdyho4sty > > Read the above for more background information on this. > From hugh at blemings.org Tue Jun 21 00:47:34 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 00:47:34 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <20160620144141.D594F6788@mailhost.linux.org.au> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> <20160620144141.D594F6788@mailhost.linux.org.au> Message-ID: Hi, Without wishing to diminish the gravity of the original subject matter, may I respectfully suggest this thread has wandered some distance from the purpose of the linux-aus list [1] and ask that the discussion either discontinue or move to another forum. Thanks. Hugh [1] http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From ac at main.me Tue Jun 21 00:55:21 2016 From: ac at main.me (ac) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:55:21 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <5767FF76.7020700@gmx.de> References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> <5767FF76.7020700@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20160620145412.2C87E6789@mailhost.linux.org.au> Yeah, I get this now, thanks so much Andri :) We should not feed the troll - It is obvious that if a court of law has not found someone to be a criminal, there is nothing to talk about here in public. talking about this is not just totally wrong, unprofessional, unethical it is simply crazy, stupid and contrary to what this community should aspire to be anyway. You have to be a very special type of person not to see or respect that. On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:36:38 +0000 Andri Effendi wrote: > Basically what is happening is that some people in this community have > decided to act as judge and jury without any respect for due process > or the rule of law. > > By someone's own admission: > "we are not discussing jailing him or imposing any other punishment. > Merely not allowing him to use LCA as a way of finding future > victims." > > These are the people are playing Judge and Jury. > > Yet they have the nerve to say: > "Don't let evil people corrupt our community" > > If there is "evil people" in our community they should PROVE IT, but > instead they are not going to. > > If Jacob Appelbaum is the person that these people say he is. > > Why don't they prove it? > Why don't they take it to the proper authorities? > > I would have nothing against a proper lawful investigation. > Because guilty people must face justice, Under the Law. > > People can't just make these aggressive accusations without reporting > it to the authorities where it can be officially investigated. > > I can not speak for anyone here, but I do suspect I am not the only > suspicious one. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jun 21 14:01:20 2016 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:01:20 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <201606211401.20665.russell@coker.com.au> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:51:56 PM Hugh Blemings wrote: > On 20/06/2016 13:34, Russell Coker wrote: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum > > > > [...] > > Thank you Russell for flagging this. > > It is on our agenda for the regularly scheduled council meeting tomorrow > evening, I'll defer further commentary until after same. http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/73415-security-expert- appelbaum-no-longer-part-of-debian.html Sam has written one article about this. Presumably he will be writing another about the results of the council meeting. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From jwshea at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 14:13:50 2016 From: jwshea at gmail.com (Joel W Shea) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:13:50 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On 20/06/2016 1:35 pm, "Russell Coker" wrote: > > [?] I think he should not be allowed to attend LCA in future. +1 > [?] I think that Linux Australia should make a public statement about this. +1 I believe both of the above are reasonable actions, given the Linux Australia value statement and linux.conf.au code of conduct. ~Joel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ac at main.me Tue Jun 21 14:32:50 2016 From: ac at main.me (ac) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 06:32:50 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <201606211401.20665.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> <201606211401.20665.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <20160621043131.C80E6679B@mailhost.linux.org.au> So, Russel, you post a private email between you and Hugh to the list so we can all see that you were "thanked" for "flagging" this... No Hugh, this is within the scope of this list. It is about this community and how things are done. Just for the record: I have not read any article or have any knowledge of Jacob Appelbaum And, as I do not use any debian based distro and I am not an "itwire" reader, I know nothing of any of this. Here is what I do understand from the posts in this thread, here, in public: Nobody has been convicted of anything in any respected court of law. If you are in any position of "authority" - you should not only read the above single sentence again, but you should actually think about what that means exactly. Otherwise hold a disciplinary hearing or base any decisions upon the outcome of any other such hearing(s) - You cannot simply have an opinion about something and then execute an action. If you are part of an angry lynch mob maybe you need other help? Russel, why do you feel (emotion) about this Jacob Appelbaum situation? Are you personally involved? Do you know something in your own personal knowledge? Or are you just a wannabe prosecutor or witch burner? What is your agenda? why are you "flagging" stuff if you do not know something yourself? Sometimes people resign because their heart is broken or their trust is destroyed. Sometimes an entire community can betray a person so deeply that they simply do not care. Sometimes people lie. Yes, groups of people. Consider this story: There was this teacher at a primary school, 15 years after a kid accused the teacher of abuse. Suddenly medical doctors, professional and respected people joined in and there were 8 accusers... There was a public outcry. Careers, lives and families were destroyed. Media articles, interviews, reports. The neighbors always knew there was something weird about that teacher... The teachers home was burned to the ground. Then came the criminal trial. The teacher was not at that school in the year that the abusers claimed. Another teacher, who has, at that time already died, was found to be the actual abuser. Where is the innocent teacher now? Who knows - probably dead in a ditch, rotting in some hole. Does anyone really care? of course not. People and society can be animals. Sometimes brutal vicious and cunning animals. On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:01:20 +1000 Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:51:56 PM Hugh Blemings wrote: > > On 20/06/2016 13:34, Russell Coker wrote: > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum > > > > > > [...] > > > > Thank you Russell for flagging this. > > > > It is on our agenda for the regularly scheduled council meeting > > tomorrow evening, I'll defer further commentary until after same. > > http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/73415-security-expert- > appelbaum-no-longer-part-of-debian.html > > Sam has written one article about this. Presumably he will be > writing another about the results of the council meeting. > From ac at main.me Tue Jun 21 14:59:44 2016 From: ac at main.me (ac) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 06:59:44 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <20160621045825.B11AE67A4@mailhost.linux.org.au> Okay, I apologize for my posts in this thread. There seems to be at least three people in this community that feels a certain way about something and the rest being either apathetic or silent. Obviously I am not suited to this community as I have different values, beliefs, ethics, morals and probably more. No, resigning from your community does not mean that I am guilty of anything, or "wrong" it simply means that I have my own opinions and that I think for myself. I have to be honest and true to me and being part of an intolerant and non diverse community simply wastes my energy and I cannot contribute anything myself and will anyway in all probability end up being strung up from the nearest tree myself if I stick around. Good luck and good day On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:13:50 +1000 Joel W Shea wrote: > On 20/06/2016 1:35 pm, "Russell Coker" wrote: > > > > [?] I think he should not be allowed to attend LCA in future. > > +1 > > > [?] I think that Linux Australia should make a public statement > > about > this. > > +1 > > I believe both of the above are reasonable actions, given the Linux > Australia value statement and linux.conf.au code of conduct. > > ~Joel From jayvdb at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:29:57 2016 From: jayvdb at gmail.com (John Mark Vandenberg) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:29:57 +0700 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: References: <57679A86.5060402@gmx.de> <5767C781.9090906@gmx.de> <20160620113211.990B46786@mailhost.linux.org.au> <201606202333.50976.russell@coker.com.au> <20160620144141.D594F6788@mailhost.linux.org.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > Without wishing to diminish the gravity of the original subject matter, may > I respectfully suggest this thread has wandered some distance from the > purpose of the linux-aus list [1] and ask that the discussion either > discontinue or move to another forum. +1 Any chance moderators can limit people posting uninformed nonsense to one post before being told to acquaint themselves with the facts and not be allowed to provide a defence of Jake here, which is irrelevant and is offensive. And +1 the original email by Russell. Linux Australia should obviously trust the Tor organisation's decision was correct, and believe the respected individuals who have spoken up (and been publicly identified), and ban Jake from LA events, and any public statement should mention the official venue for Jake to appeal the decision if/when he has remedied his current standing in the community. And it would be wise to ensure that the LA code of conduct (still a draft?) is amended so that it is clear that LA expects potential speakers (or anyone given any funding/status by LA) to act in a way that is consistent with the LA code of conduct at similar events not run by LA. (this will need some careful phrasing , as nude behaviour by a potential speaker at a public nudist event shouldnt be a problem, as LA doesnt run nudist events AFAIK, but there are greyer areas to be considered.) -- John Vandenberg From noel.butler at ausics.net Tue Jun 21 15:33:28 2016 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:33:28 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <20160621043131.C80E6679B@mailhost.linux.org.au> References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> <201606211401.20665.russell@coker.com.au> <20160621043131.C80E6679B@mailhost.linux.org.au> Message-ID: <9ae5f5e3e02c26a069c882634945a1a9@ausics.net> On 21/06/2016 14:32, ac wrote: > So, Russel, you post a private email between you and Hugh to the list > so we can all see that you were "thanked" for "flagging" this... > > No Hugh, this is within the scope of this list. It is about this > community and how things are done. Since Andre, you are a South African, living in South Africa, you perhaps don't understand where people in Australia are coming from and when hte President of such organisation indicates this is a STOP THREAD, that how it should be done - or, is it that you dont get much milage from beating your chest in private, only in public... > Just for the record: I have not read any article or have any knowledge > of Jacob Appelbaum so, you have not read any article, have no knowledge of the person or persons involved but yet you vehemently come to his defense? I smell a rat... > Nobody has been convicted of anything in any respected court of law. irrelevant > If you are in any position of "authority" - you should not only read > the above single sentence again, but you should actually think about > what that means exactly. irrelevant > Russel, why do you feel (emotion) about this Jacob Appelbaum situation? Why do you, Andre, not even a citizen or resident of Australia feel the need to troll a Linux Australia list defending someone you claim to not know or not the circumstances of. The fact that person voluntarily left at least one organisation because of said circumstances sums it up, those who are innocent usually stay and fight tooth and nail to clear their name, they dont "quit"... -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ From noel.butler at ausics.net Tue Jun 21 15:46:11 2016 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:46:11 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] VPAC etc In-Reply-To: <201606202343.04764.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201606062051.58948.russell@coker.com.au> <8a1905f603574f67ce9b1bc281231125@ausics.net> <201606202343.04764.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <644bb705a719345297a9066d0df61157@ausics.net> On 20/06/2016 23:43, Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:37:11 PM Noel Butler wrote: >> Volunteering requires a level of commitment... >> >> Harsh words? Maybe, but I don't live under a rock, don't expect >> someone >> else has it in hand, dont go round with fingers in my ears or walk on >> cotton friggin wool :) > > You are being too harsh. There are lots of reasons why volunteers can > become > unavailable to do things that they had committed to do. Even paid > people Absolutely, but those people tend to make arrangements for someone else to cover them/take over, they dont just chuck it on a shelf for month or two and let nothing be done, if you did that in just about any community organisation, you wouldn't end up being asked to perform such tasks again in the future because they start to deem you as unreliable, we are not talking about a couple people getting the flu... > don't always do what they had been paid to do. Ideally there will be > people Those people will need to explain why they haven't done such tasks, and those without a valid reason end up explaining this all again - to HR. > One thing that was cited as a partial explanation for the problems was > confusion about who owned which machine. It seems to me that this > could have > been alleviated if the LA people had worked with the LUV people. I > wouldn't Ohhh yes, one thing very clear here is there was a great lack of communication. Hopefully this is more of lessons learned and will never happen again - email is free, phone calls are cheap... -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ From paul at gear.dyndns.org Wed Jun 22 07:39:30 2016 From: paul at gear.dyndns.org (Paul Gear) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 07:39:30 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Jacob Appelbaum In-Reply-To: <20160621045825.B11AE67A4@mailhost.linux.org.au> References: <201606201334.57412.russell@coker.com.au> <20160621045825.B11AE67A4@mailhost.linux.org.au> Message-ID: <5769B412.1040201@gear.dyndns.org> On 21/06/16 14:59, ac wrote: > Okay, I apologize for my posts in this thread. There seems to be at > least three people in this community that feels a certain way about > something and the rest being either apathetic or silent. ... or just respectful of Hugh's request to shut down this thread. For the record: I don't support Russell's request because I think it is founded on a flawed assumption about human morality, and I don't agree that this list is an inappropriate place to discuss it, because even in considering Russell's request, the council will have to make a moral judgement and validate (or not) Russell's assumption. But Hugh has politely asked that it be taken elsewhere. Feel free to point me at that elsewhere and I'd be happy to discuss further. Paul From president at linux.org.au Wed Jun 22 09:09:44 2016 From: president at linux.org.au (Hugh Blemings) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:09:44 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] A Statement from Linux Australia Message-ID: - A Statement from the President and Council of Linux Australia - Linux Australia notes the recent allegations levelled against Jacob Appelbaum. Mr Appelbaum was a keynote speaker at linux.conf.au (LCA) 2012, a Linux Australia event. To the best knowledge of the Council of Linux Australia and the organisers of LCA 2012 there was no misconduct involving Mr Appelbaum reported during LCA 2012. Linux Australia encourages any attendee at a Linux Australia event to report violations of the event Code of Conduct to the event organisers, and to contact support organisations and/or law enforcement as appropriate to the situation. It is Linux Australia?s hope that the voices of all concerned in this matter are fairly heard and a just resolution is forthcoming in line with due process. As facts in this matter become clear Linux Australia will consider what, if any, action is appropriate in relation to Mr Appelbaum?s potential involvement in future Linux Australia activities. President (Hugh Blemings) and Council, Linux Australia - Ends -