From russell at coker.com.au Thu Nov 5 10:02:47 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 10:02:47 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country Message-ID: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in the introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. Also events in other countries such as NZ should show respect to indigenous people in an appropriate manner. At the LUV meeting last night we had an Acknowledgement of Country and we will do this at all meetings from now on. -- Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 with K-9 Mail. From email at lukejohn.me Thu Nov 5 11:49:59 2015 From: email at lukejohn.me (Luke John) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:49:59 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and embracing diversity. http://linux.org.au/values https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md >From reading the ["Acknowledgement of Country"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country_and_Acknowledgement_of_Country) wikipedia article, it is unclear how requiring it for any/all LA events will improve the LA community or make it more welcoming. This discussion is probably better suited to the [Policies mailing list](http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies] and I'd encourage you to continue it there. Kind regards, Luke John On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Russell Coker wrote: > In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in the introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. Also events in other countries such as NZ should show respect to indigenous people in an appropriate manner. > > At the LUV meeting last night we had an Acknowledgement of Country and we will do this at all meetings from now on. > -- > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 with K-9 Mail. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Nov 5 13:20:09 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 12:50:09 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <012401d11770$7f845510$7e8cff30$@adam.com.au> Hi Russell, Do you mean: 1. Acknowledgement of a country's indigenous people? 2. Acknowledgement of a country's current people (who in Australia and New Zealand arguably displaced the indigenous people with at least dubious legality) and a welcome to those newcomers? 3. A right-wing conservative acknowledgement of country? 4. Something else entirely? Disclaimer: I am only speaking on behalf of myself here - and to make this clear, I am not speaking on behalf of LinuxSA or any other organisation I happen to be a member of. I believe there is a place for (1) in some circumstances. In my limited experience, events run by progressive, left leaning organisations, those affiliated with the ALP (1) or those closely associated with relevant environmental protection tend to run with these types of openings. Within a sensible context, they can make sense - for example, opening a national local government conference with an Aboriginal welcome made and still makes perfect sense; local governments are, indeed, custodians of the lands of what could be argued one or more displaced peoples. However, having only the opening, with no substance would have made little sense - an empty gesture to say, "we acknowledge you but allowing you to welcome us at our [insert event here]" is all we'll do. In that experience, though, I did get to learn a lot about how the Aboriginal land rights acts and the various cases actually aren't quite as "nice" to Aboriginal people as latte sipping left city folk like to think. Should some of the events that Linux Australia run or sponsor open with an indigenous welcome? I think that's on a case by case basis. However, let's take one of Linux Australia's major events - Linux.Conf.Au - and ponder if it could be relevant. It is, by all means, a major event. There are opportunities in the conference to support and welcome all types of peoples and other causes, including those displaced. In 2004, for example, the morning teas were provided by volunteers from one of Adelaide's most well-known and effective homeless shelters; we donated money to the zoo and to a children's foundation (whose name I forget); the proceeds for the raffle at the Penguin Dinner went to ITShare SA Incorporated; I know, because I pushed the organising committee on all of these except the children's foundation. It's not as though the current organiser of LinuxSA isn't averse to social justice issues. He's known to be somewhat terse and were he a Terran from StraCraft it would be absolutely certain he'd be a fire bat - if there's a flame war, you can be sure he's lurking somewhere. But he also believes that actions speak far louder than words.but words have the strength to encourage action. Does opening a user group invite action to redress the problems of indigenous people? I'll leave that up for discussion. I fear that (2) and (3) could easily get muddled. Make people feel welcome at our meetings and in Linux Australia's own events and sponsored events by demonstrating that welcome. No matter the size of the event find a way such that anyone who is a newcomer is welcomed and can participate in any activities, discussions or - if they prefer, and some people do - to sit back and observe in peace without being pressured to join in actively. In small events or meetings this can be easily done by just one or two people. In larger events this needs to be delegated to those who organise it but also to those who regularly participate in it. In other words, make the culture of the event if it is regular, or meeting if it is regular, welcoming and make it known, gently, to all who come along that it's everyone's job - not just the organisers - to keep and sustain that culture. Is that culture sustained by an acknowledgement to country or welcome to all? Maybe, but I'm not sure. In fact, despite we have a hideously colonial second verse in our national anthem that declares we have room for those who've come across the seas, it still seems the case that this is really only true if you're a western, generally white person. Asians are welcome, if they buy our land or they pay our universities. But one could hardly call the Australian people's treatment of incoming refugees as a stellar example of welcoming. I deliberately say the Australian people and not the Australian Government because guess who you elect the Government to represent? You. The Australian people. In this case, a welcome to all to Australia could sound a little, well, odd. However, I think what we can detect in what I've been saying, is that it's more the doing, the acting, the giving and the work than the words. Yes, words are important - especially when working with displaced peoples. Their strength is unparalleled both to raise people up and bring people down. In Tolkien's world, words were one of Saruman the Wise's strength and he kept that strength even after he fell from power due to the action of the fellowship and the ents. However, it is arguable that the humility of Gandalf the Grey practised by actually doing, by his strong belief that it took more than words but actions, support, love, care won the day out in Tolkien's fantasy world. DSL (1) I decline to call the current ALP left leaning or progressive; they're centrist and used to demonstrate progressive concerns. These days, their lofty platform of principles gets swallowed by the silly revolving door of political back stabbing when in power rather than the old fashioned, Whitlam-esque or even Hawke-ish version of "Let's lead by convincing the people this is the right thing to do." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at donnellan.id.au Thu Nov 5 14:27:19 2015 From: andrew at donnellan.id.au (Andrew Donnellan) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:27:19 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 November 2015 at 10:02, Russell Coker wrote: > In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in the introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. Also events in other countries such as NZ should show respect to indigenous people in an appropriate manner. I support the introduction of such a policy. -- Andrew Donnellan http://andrew.donnellan.id.au andrew at donnellan.id.au From russell at coker.com.au Thu Nov 5 16:01:02 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:01:02 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:49:59 AM Luke John wrote: > Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a > proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and > embracing diversity. The Wikipedia page you cited states that "In Federal Parliament, both houses start each day with the Lord's Prayer and the Welcome to Country". I don't think it's unreasonable for Linux Australia to take the standards of Federal Parliament as minimum standards. > http://linux.org.au/values To achieve the goals of the "diversity" section of that document we need to acknowledge the fact that Australia has a long history of systemic discriminatory treatment of many minority groups. To "encourage diversity" with regard to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people we have to start by acknowledging that they occupied this land first. > https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/cod > e_of_conduct.md To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again we need to acknowledge who was here first. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Thu Nov 5 16:26:16 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:26:16 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <012401d11770$7f845510$7e8cff30$@adam.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <012401d11770$7f845510$7e8cff30$@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <201511051626.16388.russell@coker.com.au> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:20:09 PM David Lloyd wrote: > Do you mean: > > 1. Acknowledgement of a country's indigenous people? Of course I meant that. It is the one that fills all the first page of google responses for the topic. > I believe there is a place for (1) in some circumstances. In my limited > experience, events run by progressive, left leaning organisations, those > affiliated with the ALP (1) or those closely associated with relevant > environmental protection tend to run with these types of openings. Within a The Linux/FOSS community is generally left leaning. > what could be argued one or more displaced peoples. However, having only > the opening, with no substance would have made little sense - an empty > gesture to say, "we acknowledge you but allowing you to welcome us at our > [insert event here]" is all we'll do. In that experience, though, I did It's still much better than nothing, and there's still a lot of white people who want to give absolutely nothing to indiginous people. > Should some of the events that Linux Australia run or sponsor open with an > indigenous welcome? I think that's on a case by case basis. However, let's > take one of Linux Australia's major events - Linux.Conf.Au - and ponder if > it could be relevant. It is, by all means, a major event. There are LCA 2008 had an Acknowledgement of Country. Donna says that she wasn't the first LCA organiser to do this. I recall that there was no controversy at all when Donna did it (regardless of whether she was first or not). > Does opening a user group invite action to redress the problems of > indigenous people? I'll leave that up for discussion. The discussion has already happened many times in many places. The result of the discussion has been implemented in the Federal government. http://tinyurl.com/oowsrzx Above is the RMIT policy. http://www.deakin.edu.au/about-deakin/welcome-to-country Above is the Deakin Uni policy. http://tinyurl.com/nas4rn6 Above is the Melbourne Uni policy. > Is that culture sustained by an acknowledgement to country or welcome to > all? I don't think that we need white people to provide answers to such questions. I think that decent white people will take note of the recommendations by organisations such as Murrup Barak. Aboriginals really don't need more white people telling them what's best for them. > Maybe, but I'm not sure. In fact, despite we have a hideously colonial > second verse in our national anthem that declares we have room for those > who've come across the seas, it still seems the case that this is really > only true if you're a western, generally white person. Asians are welcome, > if they buy our land or they pay our universities. But one could hardly > call the Australian people's treatment of incoming refugees as a stellar > example of welcoming. I deliberately say the Australian people and not the > Australian Government because guess who you elect the Government to > represent? You. The Australian people. I agree that there are significant problems with racism in Australia. > In this case, a welcome to all to Australia could sound a little, well, > odd. Your argument that we should refrain from doing anything to address racism because Australia has too many racists is bizarre. > However, I think what we can detect in what I've been saying, is that it's > more the doing, the acting, the giving and the work than the words. Yes, > words are important - especially when working with displaced peoples. Their > strength is unparalleled both to raise people up and bring people down. In > Tolkien's world, words were one of Saruman the Wise's strength and he kept > that strength even after he fell from power due to the action of the > fellowship and the ents. However, it is arguable that the humility of > Gandalf the Grey practised by actually doing, by his strong belief that it > took more than words but actions, support, love, care won the day out in > Tolkien's fantasy world. http://www.racialicious.com/2013/11/06/race-gaming-brown-skin-white-masks/ One way of recognising when white people get wildly off track when talking about race is when they need to use made-up races. But if you really want to explore that sort of thing then you could start by reading pages such as the above where non-white people write about their D&D experiences. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From aj at erisian.com.au Thu Nov 5 16:56:14 2015 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:56:14 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <20151105055614.GA24883@navy> On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 04:01:02PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:49:59 AM Luke John wrote: > > Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a > > proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and > > embracing diversity. > The Wikipedia page you cited states that "In Federal Parliament, both houses > start each day with the Lord's Prayer and the Welcome to Country". I don't > think it's unreasonable for Linux Australia to take the standards of Federal > Parliament as minimum standards. So we'll be starting each linux.conf.au with the Lord's Prayer? > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race means > Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again we need to > acknowledge who was here first. In that case, I think it'd more on-topic and productive to acknowledge GNU, BSD, K&R etc. Cheers, aj From trish at thefrasers.org Thu Nov 5 17:29:31 2015 From: trish at thefrasers.org (Trish Fraser) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:29:31 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <20151105172931.2d37d25b@cassiopeia> > In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in > the introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. > I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia > should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to > Country. Also events in other countries such as NZ should show > respect to indigenous people in an appropriate manner. > > At the LUV meeting last night we had an Acknowledgement of Country > and we will do this at all meetings from now on. I support the introduction of such a policy. -- Trish Fraser, VVMZ4 91L2V -35.67910, 142.66607 Thu Nov 5 17:29:12 AEDT 2015 GNU/Linux 1997-2013 #283226 counter.li.org cassiopeia up Mageia release 5 (Official) for x86_64 kernel 4.1.8-desktop-1.mga5 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Thu Nov 5 18:22:01 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 18:22:01 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country (Russell Coker) Message-ID: Re; > 5. Acknowledgement of country (Russell Coker) > Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country > In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in the introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. Also events in other countries such as NZ should show respect to indigenous people in an appropriate manner. > Excellent idea. While there are groups and individuals who have raised concerns about such things (Rhoda Roberts being one, though her concerns related to 'a lack of heart' and 'tokenism' which are reflections on her views of those conducting them and demanding them) anything which acknowledges the original inhabitants and openly states a welcoming attitude is a good idea. There's always room for improvement and inclusiveness. Having attended quite a few and spoken to those conducting them, it is the minimum level of recognition and good place to start. Regards, Patrick From russell at coker.com.au Thu Nov 5 19:42:54 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:42:54 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:25:59 PM Luke John wrote: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Russell Coker wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:49:59 AM Luke John wrote: > >> Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a > >> proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and > >> embracing diversity. > > > > The Wikipedia page you cited states that "In Federal Parliament, both > > houses start each day with the Lord's Prayer and the Welcome to > > Country". I don't think it's unreasonable for Linux Australia to take > > the standards of Federal Parliament as minimum standards. > > I don't think any standard that includes a prayer can be > called reasonable. I agree that the prayer should be removed. But this isn't a discussion of outdated features of parliament. The mention of parliament was regarding a change that was made recently. We can copy the good things they do without copying the bad stuff. As an aside I'm happy for religious people to pray in their own way in their own home or place of worship. Forcing one particular religion into parliament is a bad thing. If we are going to have any prayers used to open parliament then they should give every religious group a chance to send representatives to pray. > > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race > > means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again > > we need to acknowledge who was here first. > > The current policy is sufficiently worded for organisers of LA events > who feel similarly to you to include an "Acknowledgement of Country". > Likewise at events where organisers do not feel it is appropriate to > include, they may choose not to. Why would someone object to an Acknowledgement of Country? It's already been done with LA events in the past without problem. It's done at most universities without issue and even when it was added to the start of parliament it didn't get much notice (I didn't even know they did that until today). > I think having a guide available to organisers discussing ways to help > make their event culturally and socially inclusive would be of benefit > to the LA community. > > The following documents seem like a good starting point. > > https://www.unimelb.edu.au/diversity/downloads/Inclusive-Events.pdf That has some interesting ideas about a separate area for non-alcoholic drinks, separating out beef and pork dishes from other food with separate utensils, and using separate BBQ plates. I don't think that LCA has done too badly in this regard, but I know that some other Linux events in Australia haven't done so well. > http://www.flinders.edu.au/staff-development-files/CDIP%20documents/CDIP%20 > Toolkit%202015/Culturally%20inclusive%20social%20events%202.pdf > http://www.latrobe.edu.au/students/equity/equity-and-diversity-documents/C > ulturally-Inclusive-social-events.pdf The first page of each of those demands an Acknowledgement of Country. Apart from that they seem to have much the same content as the first document. Given that most of the documents you have referenced have mandated an Acknowledgement of Country your argument doesn't seem sustainable. > Information of this sort is already shared between organisers of > different LA events through both formal (ie. ghosts) and informal > channels. A casual scan of the 3 documents you referenced shows that universities are sharing information too. But they write down their conclusions to make it clear to everyone. I don't think there's any reason why we couldn't do the same. We could even just reference one of the university documents, I'm sure that they would be more than happy for us to do so. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From clinton.roy at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 19:49:43 2015 From: clinton.roy at gmail.com (Clinton Roy) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 18:49:43 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: With my i've-just-organised-two-la-conferences boots on, On 5 November 2015 at 09:02, Russell Coker wrote: > I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia > should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. An acknowledgement of country is a pretty low bar to meet, and it's less than tokenistic. A welcome to country should be just that, a genuine welcoming. A welcome to country seemed the right thing to do when pycon first came to Brisbane, and I was encouraged when Maroochy wanted to understand what our conference and community was about, and when she realised it was all about sharing knowledge and skills, I knew we had a meeting of minds.. I tried to continue that feeling of connectedness by encouraging people to mix with those they wouldn't ordinarily mix with during the conference. In our second year, I organised someone from engineers without borders to introduce the conference, to continue the theme of sharing knowledge and skills with those outside your own circle, which was really just a continuation of the theme from the first year. Acknowledging someone's existence is the first step, walking together is the goal. A welcome to country is quite common for government conferences in Brisbane, there are places up north where they're considered beyond the pale. Context, community, communication and understanding are more important than a blanket rule. -- Clinton Roy Software Developer Netboxblue.com Total Internet Management Control Internet usage within and outside your organisation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Thu Nov 5 19:52:44 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:52:44 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <20151105055614.GA24883@navy> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> <20151105055614.GA24883@navy> Message-ID: <201511051952.44497.russell@coker.com.au> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:56:14 PM Anthony Towns wrote: > > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race > > means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again > > we need to acknowledge who was here first. > > In that case, I think it'd more on-topic and productive to acknowledge > GNU, BSD, K&R etc. Why do you object to this? How do you think that you personally will be disadvantaged by Acknowledgement of Country? You are really grasping at straws here. Comparing race to OS choice is silly and is probably going to offend some people. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From brent.wallis at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 20:12:31 2015 From: brent.wallis at gmail.com (Brent Wallis) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:12:31 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country (Russell Coker) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Time to register Linux Aust as a poll-tix partie.(sic intended) Bouncy fluffy puppies avatar's???? I want to vomit. Indigenous Australian recognition is a given and I am sure it's already been addressed a long time ago. Don't fuck that up with SJW BS dickhead. BW On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Patrick Elliott-Brennan < mail at elliott-brennan.id.au> wrote: > Re; > 5. Acknowledgement of country (Russell Coker) > > > Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country > > In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in the > introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. I think we > should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia should start with > an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. Also events in other > countries such as NZ should show respect to indigenous people in an > appropriate manner. > > > > Excellent idea. While there are groups and individuals who have raised > concerns about such things (Rhoda Roberts being one, though her > concerns related to 'a lack of heart' and 'tokenism' which are > reflections on her views of those conducting them and demanding them) > anything which acknowledges the original inhabitants and openly states > a welcoming attitude is a good idea. > > There's always room for improvement and inclusiveness. > > Having attended quite a few and spoken to those conducting them, it is > the minimum level of recognition and good place to start. > > Regards, > Patrick > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josh at nitrotech.org Thu Nov 5 20:28:49 2015 From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:49 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <563B2151.3080106@nitrotech.org> Hey all, I'm just going to reply to the original email/question as put forward. My opinion, and not necessarily that of the council's, is that this is a call for the organisers or the individual events to decide what is appropriate. I think Clinton's response speaks well to that. Should the members wish to discuss this further then I would encourage the use of the policies mailing list http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies as Luke pointed out. It was set up for this purpose. From the discussion it would then be helpful to submit a pull request to https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies with a proposed policy. At that point the council will be able to deliberate on it and move an appropriate motion. Cheers, Josh On 05/11/15 10:02, Russell Coker wrote: > In the past some LA events have had an Acknowledgement of Country in the introduction but as far as I am aware we have no policy on this. I think we should have a policy that all LA events held in Australia should start with an Acknowledgement of Country or Welcome to Country. Also events in other countries such as NZ should show respect to indigenous people in an appropriate manner. > > At the LUV meeting last night we had an Acknowledgement of Country and we will do this at all meetings from now on. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Nov 5 20:44:44 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:14:44 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <201511051626.16388.russell@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <012401d11770$7f845510$7e8cff30$@adam.com.au> <201511051626.16388.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <022701d117ae$9aa66700$cff33500$@adam.com.au> Hi There, As an off-topic note, Outlook has managed to format this message such that I can reply inline - I should file a "progression bug" against it :) > -----Original Message----- > > Do you mean: > > > > 1. Acknowledgement of a country's indigenous people? > > Of course I meant that. It is the one that fills all the first page of google > responses for the topic. It's what I'd assumed - but we both know assumptions can trip everyone up all at once. > > I believe there is a place for (1) in some circumstances. In my > > limited experience, events run by progressive, left leaning > > organisations, those affiliated with the ALP (1) or those closely > > associated with relevant environmental protection tend to run with > > these types of openings. Within a > > The Linux/FOSS community is generally left leaning. I would tend to agree with that statement. > > what could be argued one or more displaced peoples. However, having > > only the opening, with no substance would have made little sense - an > > empty gesture to say, "we acknowledge you but allowing you to welcome > > us at our [insert event here]" is all we'll do. In that experience, > > though, I did > > It's still much better than nothing, and there's still a lot of white people who > want to give absolutely nothing to indiginous people. Empty words are worse than nothing and worse they can lull otherwise well-meaning people into thinking that something is actually happening when they are not; perhaps that really was my point. > LCA 2008 had an Acknowledgement of Country. Donna says that she wasn't > the first LCA organiser to do this. I recall that there was no controversy at all > when Donna did it (regardless of whether she was first or not). I would expect an LCA in South Australia would focus sharply on social issues, remembering that our mistreatment of Australia's first people is not the only injustice Australians entertain. > > Is that culture sustained by an acknowledgement to country or welcome > > to all? > > I don't think that we need white people to provide answers to such > questions. > I think that decent white people will take note of the recommendations by > organisations such as Murrup Barak. Aboriginals really don't need more > white people telling them what's best for them. Don't assume I'm a white person. Remember, I was talking only for myself... > > In this case, a welcome to all to Australia could sound a little, > > well, odd. > > Your argument that we should refrain from doing anything to address racism > because Australia has too many racists is bizarre. My argument, probably not well put, was that if you had meant something more akin to a nationalistic welcome (to say refugees, recent new comers and such) might sound a tad bizarre considering how we treat refugees especially, but many newcomers suffer racism as well. The Indians seem to get a lot of it at the moment, but one day when we meet (or catch up again - we probably have met briefly in some conference somewhere), let me tell you what it's been like growing up as a non-white looking person in Australia over the past 40 or so years. > One way of recognising when white people get wildly off track when talking > about race is when they need to use made-up races. But if you really want to > explore that sort of thing then you could start by reading pages such as the > above where non-white people write about their D&D experiences. I actually used the example of Saruman and Gandalf, not because of their race, but because of the attributes Tolkien attributed to them. Incidentally, I've played D&D, AD&D and onine text MUDs for most of my life; I'm also not white :) DSL From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Thu Nov 5 20:51:44 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:51:44 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country (Russell Coker) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 November 2015 at 20:12, Brent Wallis wrote: > Time to register Linux Aust as a poll-tix partie.(sic intended) > Bouncy fluffy puppies avatar's???? > > I want to vomit. Go right ahead. Don't let me stop you. > > Indigenous Australian recognition is a given and I am sure it's already been > addressed a long time ago. Yup. It was all fixed up so long ago. Nothing to see here. Move along. > Don't fuck that up with SJW BS dickhead. > See above. From aj at erisian.com.au Thu Nov 5 20:53:34 2015 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:53:34 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <201511051952.44497.russell@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> <20151105055614.GA24883@navy> <201511051952.44497.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 07:52:44PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:56:14 PM Anthony Towns wrote: > > > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race > > > means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again > > > we need to acknowledge who was here first. > > In that case, I think it'd more on-topic and productive to acknowledge > > GNU, BSD, K&R etc. > Why do you object to this? I enjoy linux and open source and linux.conf.au for the technical content, not the identity politics. > How do you think that you personally will be > disadvantaged by Acknowledgement of Country? In the main I think it's tokenism whose primary purpose is to indicate allegience with progressive political parties. While I'm sure some people take it seriously and do it with good intent and it can be a good thing -- such as Donna and Clinton at Mel8 and pycon; anywhere it becomes policy, including in Parliament, it's just an opportunity to demonstrate someone's political clout. In my opinion, for aboriginals, it sends the message "hey, you guys used to own this, but we've taken it now, but we'll call you traditional owners, where "traditional" means "without any actual rights"". For non-Aboriginals, it sends the message "hey, you're not really Australian, you're fundamentally invaders which means evil, and you don't have the same rights as indigenous people". A brilliant system. > You are really grasping at straws here. > Comparing race to OS choice is silly > and is probably going to offend some people. OS choice is far more important than race. Cheers, aj From russell at coker.com.au Thu Nov 5 21:58:09 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:58:09 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <201511052158.09160.russell@coker.com.au> Firstly please don't CC a list that most people in this discussion aren't subscribed to. On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:32:25 PM Luke John wrote: > > Why would someone object to an Acknowledgement of Country? It's already > > been done with LA events in the past without problem. It's done at most > > universities without issue and even when it was added to the start of > > parliament it didn't get much notice (I didn't even know they did that > > until today). > > *I would object to a mandated "Acknowledgement of Country"*. > > You have provided no real evidence that having a mandated > "Acknowledgement of Country" would encourage participation in the LA > community. Other people are doing it is not a reason to do it. Many > people write closed source software, that's not a good reason for LA > to mandate it. All the universities that have implemented it have done so to encourage participation. I presume that the people associated with organisations like the Murrup Barak Institute know what they are doing, and know it better than a bunch of random Linux people. > From my reading they certainly do not *demand* an "Acknowledgement of > Country". They are guidelines and they provide suggestions and > background. So you think we should have guidelines about an Acknowledgement of Country? On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:44:44 PM David Lloyd wrote: > > > what could be argued one or more displaced peoples. However, having > > > only the opening, with no substance would have made little sense - an > > > empty gesture to say, "we acknowledge you but allowing you to welcome > > > us at our [insert event here]" is all we'll do. In that experience, > > > though, I did > > > > It's still much better than nothing, and there's still a lot of white > > people who want to give absolutely nothing to indiginous people. > > Empty words are worse than nothing and worse they can lull otherwise > well-meaning people into thinking that something is actually happening when > they are not; perhaps that really was my point. Please offer your wealth of knowledge of reconciliation to the Murrup Barak Institute. You seem to believe that you know their topic better than they do. > > > Is that culture sustained by an acknowledgement to country or welcome > > > to all? > > > > I don't think that we need white people to provide answers to such > > questions. > > I think that decent white people will take note of the recommendations by > > organisations such as Murrup Barak. Aboriginals really don't need more > > white people telling them what's best for them. > > Don't assume I'm a white person. Remember, I was talking only for myself... I'll assume that everyone who says such things is white. Usually I'm correct. > > > In this case, a welcome to all to Australia could sound a little, > > > well, odd. > > > > Your argument that we should refrain from doing anything to address > > racism because Australia has too many racists is bizarre. > > My argument, probably not well put, was that if you had meant something > more akin to a nationalistic welcome (to say refugees, recent new comers > and such) This is a very common form of argument. When someone advocates for something specific to be done to address the needs of a minority group people start suddenly claiming that we need to do the same thing for other minority groups (who generally have slightly different needs) and also address the needs of straight white men. It always seems like an attempt to do anything but address the needs of the minority group in question. Different groups have different needs. Doing what is best for one group is not exclusive of doing things for other groups. As an aside the organisers of OSDC were raising money for refugees and also advocating better treatment for them. I don't think that an acknowledgement at the start of a meeting would be the best thing to do to help refugees. > might sound a tad bizarre considering how we treat refugees > especially, but many newcomers suffer racism as well. The Indians seem to > get a lot of it at the moment, Are you claiming to be representing Indians here by opposing an Acknowledgement of Country? > but one day when we meet (or catch up again > - we probably have met briefly in some conference somewhere), let me tell > you what it's been like growing up as a non-white looking person in > Australia over the past 40 or so years. My wife's older relatives have told me what it was like before Greeks came to be regarded as white. But different races get different forms of racism. > I actually used the example of Saruman and Gandalf, not because of their > race, but because of the attributes Tolkien attributed to them. Which are attributes he doesn't assign to any Orcs. > Incidentally, I've played D&D, AD&D and onine text MUDs for most of my > life; I'm also not white :) Why do you like Tolkien? The idea of matching race to good/evil in fantasy seems mostly due to him. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From josh at nitrotech.org Thu Nov 5 22:03:25 2015 From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:03:25 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <201511052158.09160.russell@coker.com.au> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au> <201511052158.09160.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <563B377D.40005@nitrotech.org> On 05/11/15 21:58, Russell Coker wrote: > Firstly please don't CC a list that most people in this discussion aren't > subscribed to. Hi Russell, It was asked that this conversation would be moved to the policy list as that is the correct forum in which to discuss this. Please kindly consider this a final email to the more general linux-aus list and continue the discussion on the policy list. If you're not subscribed, you're more than welcome to do so here: http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies The archives are also available there. Thanks, Josh -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From noel.butler at ausics.net Thu Nov 5 23:01:28 2015 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:01:28 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au> <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au> <20151105055614.GA24883@navy> <201511051952.44497.russell@coker.com.au> <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> Message-ID: On 05/11/2015 19:53, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 07:52:44PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:56:14 PM Anthony Towns wrote: >> > > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race >> > > means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again >> > > we need to acknowledge who was here first. >> > In that case, I think it'd more on-topic and productive to acknowledge >> > GNU, BSD, K&R etc. >> Why do you object to this? > > I enjoy linux and open source and linux.conf.au for the technical > content, > not the identity politics. Well put >> How do you think that you personally will be >> disadvantaged by Acknowledgement of Country? > > In the main I think it's tokenism whose primary purpose is to indicate > allegience with progressive political parties. While I'm sure some > people > take it seriously and do it with good intent and it can be a good thing > -- such as Donna and Clinton at Mel8 and pycon; anywhere it becomes > policy, including in Parliament, it's just an opportunity to > demonstrate > someone's political clout. > > In my opinion, for aboriginals, it sends the message "hey, you guys > used > to own this, but we've taken it now, but we'll call you traditional > owners, where "traditional" means "without any actual rights"". For > non-Aboriginals, it sends the message "hey, you're not really > Australian, > you're fundamentally invaders which means evil, and you don't have the > same rights as indigenous people". A brilliant system. Should call it for what it is - a form of racism, class separation, whatever, I mean for fucks sake, there is no them and us, no black and white, we are all Australians, shit like this just keeps the divide in place. From email at lukejohn.me Fri Nov 6 00:38:01 2015 From: email at lukejohn.me (Luke John) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:38:01 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision Message-ID: The final text of the TPP has been officially released I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the following section. ## Article 14.17: Source Code 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory. 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 is limited to mass-market software or products containing such software and does not include software used for critical infrastructure. 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; or (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of software necessary for that software to comply with laws or regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or practice of a Party. Kind Regards, Luke http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php From markwalkom at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 08:14:21 2015 From: markwalkom at gmail.com (Mark Walkom) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:14:21 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll second this. On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: > The final text of the TPP has been officially released > > I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the > following section. > > ## Article 14.17: Source Code > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the > import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products > containing such software, in its territory. > > 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 > is limited to mass-market software or products containing such > software and does not include software used for critical > infrastructure. > > 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related > to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; > or > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of > software necessary for that software to comply with laws or > regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > > 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that > relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders > made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject > to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or > practice of a Party. > > Kind Regards, > Luke > > > http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 09:10:17 2015 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:10:17 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure that a face-value reading actually tells us what is going on here. My reading of point one is that it doesn't actually refer to open-source software, but rather to protecting proprietary closed-source software. Is anyone on this list able to give a more expert overview of what these clauses mean? On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: > The final text of the TPP has been officially released > > I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the > following section. > > ## Article 14.17: Source Code > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the > import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products > containing such software, in its territory. > > 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 > is limited to mass-market software or products containing such > software and does not include software used for critical > infrastructure. > > 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related > to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; > or > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of > software necessary for that software to comply with laws or > regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > > 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that > relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders > made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject > to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or > practice of a Party. > > Kind Regards, > Luke > > > http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- -------------------------------------------------- Tennessee Leeuwenburg http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ "Don't believe everything you think" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell-humbug at stuart.id.au Fri Nov 6 09:05:37 2015 From: russell-humbug at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 08:05:37 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1446761137.3279.4.camel@stuart.id.au> On Fri, 2015-11-06 at 08:14 +1100, Mark Walkom wrote: > I'll second this. I'm struggling to think of for purpose for that clause, other that as direct attack on the copy left licences. If every these was a time for LA to make a strong public stance on an issue, this is it. > On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: > The final text of the TPP has been officially released > > I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement > opposing the > following section. > > ## Article 14.17: Source Code > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, > source code > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition > for the > import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of > products > containing such software, in its territory. > > 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to > paragraph 1 > is limited to mass-market software or products containing such > software and does not include software used for critical > infrastructure. > > 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions > related > to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated > contracts; > or > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code > of > software necessary for that software to comply with laws or > regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > > 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements > that > relate to patent applications or granted patents, including > any orders > made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, > subject > to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or > practice of a Party. > > Kind Regards, > Luke > > http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Fri Nov 6 09:21:16 2015 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 08:21:16 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1446762076.3279.5.camel@stuart.id.au> On Fri, 2015-11-06 at 08:14 +1100, Mark Walkom wrote: > I'll second this. I'm struggling to think of for purpose for that clause, other that as direct attack on the copy left licences. If every these was a time for LA to make a strong public stance on an issue, this is it. > On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: > The final text of the TPP has been officially released > > I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement > opposing the > following section. > > ## Article 14.17: Source Code > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, > source code > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition > for the > import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of > products > containing such software, in its territory. > > 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to > paragraph 1 > is limited to mass-market software or products containing such > software and does not include software used for critical > infrastructure. > > 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions > related > to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated > contracts; > or > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code > of > software necessary for that software to comply with laws or > regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > > 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements > that > relate to patent applications or granted patents, including > any orders > made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, > subject > to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or > practice of a Party. > > Kind Regards, > Luke > > http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php From andrew at donnellan.id.au Fri Nov 6 09:58:32 2015 From: andrew at donnellan.id.au (Andrew Donnellan) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:58:32 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 November 2015 at 09:10, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > I'm not sure that a face-value reading actually tells us what is going on > here. My reading of point one is that it doesn't actually refer to > open-source software, but rather to protecting proprietary closed-source > software. Is anyone on this list able to give a more expert overview of what > these clauses mean? I'm not going to second this request until we get someone slightly more informed to make a comment. I'm *pretty sure* that this section does not mean what many people on this list will immediately jump to - I'm inclined to believe that this is about protecting proprietary software vendors from mandatory source code disclosure by states (with the exception of critical infrastructure and regulatory requirements, as it specifies), and will not in any way impact private copyright arrangements such as the GPL. Any legally minded folk care to comment? -- Andrew Donnellan http://andrew.donnellan.id.au andrew at donnellan.id.au From neill at ingenious.com.au Fri Nov 6 10:07:51 2015 From: neill at ingenious.com.au (Neill Cox) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:07:51 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 12:38 AM, Luke John wrote: > The final text of the TPP has been officially released > > I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the > following section. > > ## Article 14.17: Source Code > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the > import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products > containing such software, in its territory. > > 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 > is limited to mass-market software or products containing such > software and does not include software used for critical > infrastructure. > > 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related > to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; > or > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of > software necessary for that software to comply with laws or > regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > > 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that > relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders > made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject > to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or > practice of a Party. > > Kind Regards, > Luke > > > http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- Neill Cox Ingenious Software -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 10:24:10 2015 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:24:10 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: <1446761137.3279.4.camel@stuart.id.au> References: <1446761137.3279.4.camel@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: My impression was to address the following hypothetical: "I will only buy/import your software if you release it as open source". I think it's about reducing the abilities for parties to pressure people into using an open source license. I can well imagine being in the shoes of a commercial company and not wanting to be forced into an arrangement where I had to release open source code for my carefully constructed IP. However, I am not a lawyer, so I'm not sure if I have a proper interpretation, so I was hoping for some more background information to understand this better. On 6 November 2015 at 09:05, Russell Stuart wrote: > On Fri, 2015-11-06 at 08:14 +1100, Mark Walkom wrote: > > I'll second this. > > I'm struggling to think of for purpose for that clause, other that as > direct attack on the copy left licences. > > If every these was a time for LA to make a strong public stance on an > issue, this is it. > > > On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: > > The final text of the TPP has been officially released > > > > I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement > > opposing the > > following section. > > > > ## Article 14.17: Source Code > > > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, > > source code > > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition > > for the > > import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of > > products > > containing such software, in its territory. > > > > 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to > > paragraph 1 > > is limited to mass-market software or products containing such > > software and does not include software used for critical > > infrastructure. > > > > 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions > > related > > to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated > > contracts; > > or > > > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code > > of > > software necessary for that software to comply with laws or > > regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > > > > 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements > > that > > relate to patent applications or granted patents, including > > any orders > > made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, > > subject > > to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or > > practice of a Party. > > > > Kind Regards, > > Luke > > > > > http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- -------------------------------------------------- Tennessee Leeuwenburg http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ "Don't believe everything you think" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From email at lukejohn.me Fri Nov 6 10:27:11 2015 From: email at lukejohn.me (Luke John) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:27:11 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hopefully someone will be able to give a more expert opinion, however even on a conservative reading this section appears to have at least the following two outcomes. Governments are unable to set open source as a procurement requirement. Governments are unable to require certain software be open to inspection by public or government. Whilst the second isn't something I understand to be a current practice, it is certainly something that has been called for by parts of our community. With the recent VW scandal it has also attracted the wider publics attention and there's been encouraging discussion of it. Kind Regards, Luke John On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > I'm not sure that a face-value reading actually tells us what is going on > here. My reading of point one is that it doesn't actually refer to > open-source software, but rather to protecting proprietary closed-source > software. Is anyone on this list able to give a more expert overview of what > these clauses mean? > > On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: >> >> The final text of the TPP has been officially released >> >> I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the >> following section. >> >> ## Article 14.17: Source Code >> >> 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code >> of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the >> import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products >> containing such software, in its territory. >> >> 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 >> is limited to mass-market software or products containing such >> software and does not include software used for critical >> infrastructure. >> >> 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: >> >> (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related >> to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; >> or >> >> (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of >> software necessary for that software to comply with laws or >> regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. >> >> 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that >> relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders >> made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject >> to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or >> practice of a Party. >> >> Kind Regards, >> Luke >> >> >> http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------------- > Tennessee Leeuwenburg > http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ > "Don't believe everything you think" From andrew at donnellan.id.au Fri Nov 6 10:33:02 2015 From: andrew at donnellan.id.au (Andrew Donnellan) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:33:02 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: <1446761137.3279.4.camel@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: On 6 November 2015 at 10:24, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > My impression was to address the following hypothetical: "I will only > buy/import your software if you release it as open source". I think it's > about reducing the abilities for parties to pressure people into using an > open source license. I can well imagine being in the shoes of a commercial > company and not wanting to be forced into an arrangement where I had to > release open source code for my carefully constructed IP. The issue that comes to mind is governments establishing import or trade barriers (this is, after all, a trade agreement) to prevent companies doing business with either the public or private sector unless they meet source code disclosure requirements. The exemption covering "critical infrastructure" reminds me of the current situation with Chinese telecom manufacturers such as Huawei, who have been required by Western governments (e.g. the UK) to disclose source code for security review as a condition of being permitted to bid for critical infrastructure contracts (e.g. the British Telecom core network upgrade) - a situation where the state has openly expressed its will to block trade between two private companies if its disclosure conditions aren't met. Now of course, the TPP contains an exemption for critical infrastructure, and China isn't a party to the TPP, but this section appears to me to be designed to prevent a similar situation arising outside the critical infrastructure or regulatory contexts, particularly if the TPP clauses are used as a model for future negotiations between the West and more "hostile" countries. I still have some concerns about this because of potential impact on any future moves to create better data sovereignty measures (along with all the other provisions of the TPP of course), but I can't see how this section specifically seriously impacts the Free Software movement. (IANAL.) -- Andrew Donnellan http://andrew.donnellan.id.au andrew at donnellan.id.au From andrew at donnellan.id.au Fri Nov 6 10:46:54 2015 From: andrew at donnellan.id.au (Andrew Donnellan) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:46:54 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 November 2015 at 10:27, Luke John wrote: > Hopefully someone will be able to give a more expert opinion, however > even on a conservative reading this section appears to have at least > the following two outcomes. > > Governments are unable to set open source as a procurement requirement. I'm not sure about this myself, but I can see that as a potential issue. > Governments are unable to require certain software be open to > inspection by public or government. > > Whilst the second isn't something I understand to be a current > practice, it is certainly something that has been called for by parts > of our community. With the recent VW scandal it has also attracted > the wider publics attention and there's been encouraging discussion of > it. Yeah, this is a concern. -- Andrew Donnellan http://andrew.donnellan.id.au andrew at donnellan.id.au From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Fri Nov 6 10:50:43 2015 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 09:50:43 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1446767443.3279.36.camel@stuart.id.au> On Fri, 2015-11-06 at 07:27 +0800, Luke John wrote: > Hopefully someone will be able to give a more expert opinion, however > even on a conservative reading this section appears to have at least > the following two outcomes. > > Governments are unable to set open source as a procurement > requirement. > > Governments are unable to require certain software be open to > inspection by public or government. Yes. As has been pointed out to me elsewhere, "Party" here means a signatory - ie the government. So it constrains what our government can do, not it's citizens (which is how I read it). However it specifically exempts commercial contracts, so maybe it doesn't effect government procurement. (If government wants to roll out open source they can, and if they want hire someone else to do it like Red Hat, that's a commercial contract). And it exempts demanding the source in order enforce regulations - which covers things like VW. Now I'm struggling to see what it does cover. Maybe it's trying to prevent the government from passing laws that insist source code is made available for any product sold in the country (there is a rumour China was thinking of doing that). Anyway, now that I realise it constrains governments not citizens, it seems mostly harmless. From euan at dekock.net Fri Nov 6 10:42:18 2015 From: euan at dekock.net (Euan) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 07:42:18 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C5D8F3E-FC9C-478F-AD01-401BB8AA5AAF@dekock.net> I agree that we should oppose this. There should be no special blanket clause on source code - commercial entities already have pretty good protection, and a robust body of legal precedent to fall back on. There are specific circumstances where source code should be made available - encryption tools, voting systems and any system that makes bold claims around security or privacy. The definition of "critical infrastructure" is a big grey area too. It also seems to supersede already existing licensing legislation and contradicts most open source licences. Regards, Euan On 5 November 2015 9:38:01 PM AWST, Luke John wrote: >The final text of the TPP has been officially released > >I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the >following section. > >## Article 14.17: Source Code > >1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code >of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the >import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products >containing such software, in its territory. > >2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 >is limited to mass-market software or products containing such >software and does not include software used for critical >infrastructure. > >3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: > > (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related >to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; >or > > (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of >software necessary for that software to comply with laws or >regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. > >4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that >relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders >made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject >to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or >practice of a Party. > >Kind Regards, >Luke > >http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php >_______________________________________________ >linux-aus mailing list >linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From la at mjec.net Fri Nov 6 11:41:03 2015 From: la at mjec.net (Michael Cordover) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 11:41:03 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1446770463.3588314.430569377.4A845AD1@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi all A few comments from my reading. I'm not a public international lawyer and treaty interpretation is complex, so my views should not be taken as gospel. They represent a first impression, not a carefully-researched legal analysis. On Fri, Nov 6, 2015, at 10:27, Luke John wrote: > Governments are unable to set open source as a procurement requirement. Art 14.17 does not appear to apply to government procurement at all: see Art 14.2(3)(a). On 6 November 2015 at 10:24, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > My reading of point one is that it doesn't actually refer to open-source software, > but rather to protecting proprietary closed-source software. This is also my reading of the general effect of Art 14.17. Art 14.17(1) imposes prevents a government from imposing the requirements "as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software". The GPL is not a government imposing that requirement, but is instead a licence condition, akin to " terms and conditions related to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts". On Fri, Nov 6, 2015, at 10:27, Luke John wrote: > Governments are unable to require certain software be open to > inspection by public or government. This is a likely consequence in relation to "mass-market software". I think this is the most significant possible concern. As far as I'm aware, taking this step would be an unprecedented in Australia. I do not think it likely that any Australian government would do this, even if this were not a provision of the TPP. While there is some ambiguity (in a trade agreement? shocking! /s) I very much doubt this has great significance for open source generally. Regards Michael -- http://mjec.net/ From cs at zip.com.au Fri Nov 6 11:37:29 2015 From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 11:37:29 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151106003729.GA46773@cskk.homeip.net> On 06Nov2015 07:27, Luke John wrote: >Hopefully someone will be able to give a more expert opinion, however >even on a conservative reading this section appears to have at least >the following two outcomes. > >Governments are unable to set open source as a procurement requirement. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about _procurement_. It says governments may not prevent closed source from being offered for sale. Obviously any _buyer_ can choose to buy or not based on whatever criteria they like. (Indeed, it even is explicit: see 3(a).) >Governments are unable to require certain software be open to >inspection by public or government. They are, if it is "critical infrastructure". I would think any government could declare all sorts of things critical, for example control systems for traffic or trains, and in democracies, software in voting machines. >Whilst the second isn't something I understand to be a current >practice, it is certainly something that has been called for by parts >of our community. With the recent VW scandal it has also attracted >the wider publics attention and there's been encouraging discussion of >it. The VW scandal was exposed by black box testing, not requiring source code. IANAL, Cameron Simpson >Kind Regards, >Luke John > >On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg > wrote: >> I'm not sure that a face-value reading actually tells us what is going on >> here. My reading of point one is that it doesn't actually refer to >> open-source software, but rather to protecting proprietary closed-source >> software. Is anyone on this list able to give a more expert overview of what >> these clauses mean? >> >> On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: >>> >>> The final text of the TPP has been officially released >>> >>> I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the >>> following section. >>> >>> ## Article 14.17: Source Code >>> >>> 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code >>> of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the >>> import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products >>> containing such software, in its territory. >>> >>> 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 >>> is limited to mass-market software or products containing such >>> software and does not include software used for critical >>> infrastructure. >>> >>> 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: >>> >>> (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related >>> to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; >>> or >>> >>> (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of >>> software necessary for that software to comply with laws or >>> regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. >>> >>> 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that >>> relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders >>> made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject >>> to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or >>> practice of a Party. >>> >>> Kind Regards, >>> Luke >>> >>> >>> http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php From cs at zip.com.au Fri Nov 6 11:43:25 2015 From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 11:43:25 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: <1446762076.3279.5.camel@stuart.id.au> References: <1446762076.3279.5.camel@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <20151106004325.GA82985@cskk.homeip.net> On 06Nov2015 08:21, Russell Stuart wrote: >On Fri, 2015-11-06 at 08:14 +1100, Mark Walkom wrote: >> I'll second this. > >I'm struggling to think of for purpose for that clause, other that as >direct attack on the copy left licences. Are you? I'm not. Firstly, it in NO WAY affects GPL stuff. What it precludes is one government (call them "A") requiring access to source code developed/owned under another government ("B") as a condition of offering that software for sale in the territory of the first government ("A"). For example, it _does_ preclude this: http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/security/chinas-new-rules-ask-tech-firms-to-hand-over-source-code even though the scope of that is small (code to run in Chinese banks, presently). Frankly, I suspect that this clause might exist explicitly for that kind of thing. I also think that all China has to do to adhere is declare that banks are critical infrastructure (and in a system like China's, they can; it isn't even unreasonable). >If every these was a time for LA to make a strong public stance on an >issue, this is it. No, this isn't. Because it doesn't say what you seem to imagine it says. IANAL, Cameron Simpson >> On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: >> The final text of the TPP has been officially released >> >> I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement >> opposing the >> following section. >> >> ## Article 14.17: Source Code >> >> 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, >> source code >> of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition >> for the >> import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of >> products >> containing such software, in its territory. >> >> 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to >> paragraph 1 >> is limited to mass-market software or products containing such >> software and does not include software used for critical >> infrastructure. >> >> 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: >> >> (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions >> related >> to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated >> contracts; >> or >> >> (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code >> of >> software necessary for that software to comply with laws or >> regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. >> >> 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements >> that >> relate to patent applications or granted patents, including >> any orders >> made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, >> subject >> to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or >> practice of a Party. >> >> Kind Regards, >> Luke >> >> http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php From david at purdue.id.au Fri Nov 6 11:10:31 2015 From: david at purdue.id.au (David Purdue) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 11:10:31 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563BEFF7.2010507@purdue.id.au> On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:27, Luke John wrote: > Hopefully someone will be able to give a more expert opinion, however > even on a conservative reading this section appears to have at least > the following two outcomes. > > Governments are unable to set open source as a procurement requirement. No, I don't think clause 1 says that. It says that if you make mass-market software and want to sell it in my territory then I can not require you to disclose the source code. It does not prevent me mandating that for a project/department/government I will only select open source software. In other words - if you want to sell closed source software in my territory then good luck to you, but I don't have to buy it. > > Governments are unable to require certain software be open to > inspection by public or government. Clause 2 says exactly the opposite - if the software is not mass market (i.e. you wrote it just for me), or if it is used for critical infrastructure, them the government can mandate access to source code. Cheers, DavidP > > Whilst the second isn't something I understand to be a current > practice, it is certainly something that has been called for by parts > of our community. With the recent VW scandal it has also attracted > the wider publics attention and there's been encouraging discussion of > it. > > Kind Regards, > Luke John > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg > wrote: >> I'm not sure that a face-value reading actually tells us what is going on >> here. My reading of point one is that it doesn't actually refer to >> open-source software, but rather to protecting proprietary closed-source >> software. Is anyone on this list able to give a more expert overview of what >> these clauses mean? >> >> On 6 November 2015 at 00:38, Luke John wrote: >>> The final text of the TPP has been officially released >>> >>> I'd like to request LA to put out an official statement opposing the >>> following section. >>> >>> ## Article 14.17: Source Code >>> >>> 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code >>> of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the >>> import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products >>> containing such software, in its territory. >>> >>> 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 >>> is limited to mass-market software or products containing such >>> software and does not include software used for critical >>> infrastructure. >>> >>> 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: >>> >>> (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related >>> to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; >>> or >>> >>> (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of >>> software necessary for that software to comply with laws or >>> regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. >>> >>> 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that >>> relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders >>> made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject >>> to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or >>> practice of a Party. >>> >>> Kind Regards, >>> Luke >>> >>> >>> http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Text.php >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> >> >> -- >> -------------------------------------------------- >> Tennessee Leeuwenburg >> http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ >> "Don't believe everything you think" > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craige at mcwhirter.com.au Fri Nov 6 16:55:44 2015 From: craige at mcwhirter.com.au (Craige McWhirter) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:55:44 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: <1446770463.3588314.430569377.4A845AD1@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1446770463.3588314.430569377.4A845AD1@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <563C40E0.8040505@mcwhirter.com.au> On 06/11/15 10:41, Michael Cordover wrote: > While there is some ambiguity (in a trade agreement? shocking! /s) I > very much doubt this has great significance for open source generally. It's the ambiguity that concerns me the most. If we comment too hastily without an informed legal opinion, we risk losing what ever credibility we may have brought to the table. Rather than rushing out in opposition, I would be more in favour of us first seeking an informed legal opinion and responding on the basis of said opinion. -- Craige McWhirter M: 0468591819 W: http://mcwhirter.com.au/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From donna at kattekrab.net Sat Nov 7 12:32:48 2015 From: donna at kattekrab.net (Donna Benjamin) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 12:32:48 +1100 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> Message-ID: <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Towns" > While I'm sure some people take it seriously and do it with good intent > and it can be a good thing -- such as Donna and Clinton at Mel8 and pycon; > anywhere it becomes policy, including in Parliament, it's just an opportunity > to demonstrate someone's political clout. aj/david - thanks for respectfully disagreeing with me and Clinton on this. Brent and Noel - I felt your responses were pretty rude to those of us who think this is important. For those of you who also indicated your support for the idea - thank you. Russell, thanks for raising the suggestion in the first place. Debate about the "acknowledgement / welcome to country" custom at the start of public gatherings has been going on for a long time. I found this crikey wrap up of opinions from 5 years ago to be an interesting snapshot. http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/03/18/welcome-to-country-a-token-debate/ I have to admit I'm disappointed by some of the responses I've read on list here. A community leadership summit unconf will be happeneing again as a miniconf at LCA, and I have actively invited members of some aboriginal organisations to come and share their thoughts on community leadership. I feel embarrassed about having done that now. I reached out to a couple of indigenous leaders to encourage them to submit a miniconf proposal to explore open technology use in indigenous cultures. I see now that may have been premature, and they were right to be cautious. Many years ago, there were very few women at LCA. The Women in Linux miniconf served to create a welcoming space for women at our event, and numbers of women participating in the conference increased. I was hoping we might be able to do something similar and create a welcoming environment so we could hear some new voices, and further expand our opportunities to learn from a very under represented group. I've had many international visitors remark that they found the acknowledgement or welcome to country to be a good thing. I think it's a really lovely custom. I don't see it as identity politics at all - but as something uniquely Australian, uniquely "local" to place, and a genuine, and open hearted way to welcome newcomers, and acknowledge even older customs about bringing people together. Apologies to council who want discussion moved to the Policy list - but this response is not about pros and cons of creating or refusing to create policy - but about the way we have responded to that request. _______________________________________________ linux-aus mailing list linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From aj at erisian.com.au Sat Nov 7 18:36:31 2015 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:36:31 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Message-ID: <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 12:32:48PM +1100, Donna Benjamin wrote: > I found this crikey wrap up of opinions from 5 years ago to be an interesting snapshot. > http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/03/18/welcome-to-country-a-token-debate/ The first three words of that article are name-calling. Would you point to an article as "a wrap of opinions" that's "an interesting snapshot" of views on gamergate if it started with "The feminazis once again inflamed debate this week..." or anything like it? > A community leadership summit unconf will be happeneing again as a > miniconf at LCA, and I have actively invited members of some aboriginal > organisations to come and share their thoughts on community leadership. > I feel embarrassed about having done that now. I don't see why you should. Are you treating them any different to, say, members of an evangelical church who might have some interesting thoughts on community leadership to share? (At least, treating them any differently in any way other than choosing where to direct /your/ time and focus, for which you're certainly allowed to be as biassed as you like) I mean consider what Noel and Brent actually said on the principle rather than the actions to be taken: Noel: "there is no them and us, no black and white, we are all Australians" Brent: "Indigenous Australian recognition is a given" Is that meant to be embarrassing? > I reached out to a couple of indigenous leaders to encourage them to > submit a miniconf proposal to explore open technology use in indigenous > cultures. I see now that may have been premature, and they were right > to be cautious. I'm not sure what you mean there; it seems unlikely to me that there'd be enough speakers to fill up a whole day's worth of miniconf on that topic at an lca level? Though I guess I'm already a bit surprised at the astronomy and radio miniconfs managing to fill up two days' worth of slots repeatedly, so take it with a grain of salt. But just having a talk or three on the topic seems like a no-brainer though? > I've had many international visitors remark that they found the > acknowledgement or welcome to country to be a good thing. I think it's > a really lovely custom. I don't see it as identity politics at all - > but as something uniquely Australian, uniquely "local" to place, and > a genuine, and open hearted way to welcome newcomers, and acknowledge > even older customs about bringing people together. It's like saying "open source is a meritocracy". That can come from an open hearted place, as a way to emphasise that everyone's welcome, and that it's what you do that matters. Or it can be (taken as) a way of saying that if you haven't already made it, it's because you don't deserve to, and that there are no systemic or unfair practices in place that are worth addressing [0]. Personally, I think it's fair to take both interpretations into account. Is the communicator trying to be welcoming? Then maybe cut them some slack and don't interpret it negatively. Do people get the wrong message from it? Then take their feelings into account and modify the message, or at least don't harp on about it repeatedly. I think having a conference organiser choose to do a welcome to country falls mostly in the first half; I think making it an organisational policy falls mostly in the latter half. YMMV of course. The identity politics side of things, to my mind, comes in when you start dividing groups into allies and enemies, and deciding who gets cut slack based on whether they're your friends or not. Because, obviously, annoying your enemies is a good thing, so when you talk about them you call them names, and if you find an idea that makes your allies feel good and annoys your enemies, you make it a policy to talk about it as often as possible; because rewarding your friends and hurting your opponents is a good thing. And it's also deliberately divisive, driving your enemies away. Which is particularly fun, because the second half of that equivalence is obviously good (especially if there are lamentations involved), but the first half isn't something people are supposed to admit to being these days [1]. Cheers, aj, probably just putting himself further in the "enemies" camp [0] eg http://garann.com/dev/2012/you-keep-using-that-word/ [1] Which in turn is most fun when people try coming up with caveats to make it not seem hypocritical, like "it's okay to be divisive against divisive people", or "you don't have to tolerate intolerant people", and then have to pretend recursion isn't a thing. From james at lovedthanlost.net Sun Nov 8 03:43:05 2015 From: james at lovedthanlost.net (James Turnbull) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 11:43:05 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> Message-ID: <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> > I don't see why you should. Are you treating them any different to, say, > members of an evangelical church who might have some interesting thoughts > on community leadership to share? Yes - because both groups have differing amounts of power. Evangelical Christians wield enormous economic and political power in Australia. Indigenous groups are thrilled if people remember they exist. Poverty, disease, institutional racism (c.f. the incarceration rates of indigenous Australians), radically shorter lifespans all remain documented problems for those communities. > (At least, treating them any differently in any way other than choosing > where to direct /your/ time and focus, for which you're certainly allowed > to be as biassed as you like) > > I mean consider what Noel and Brent actually said on the principle > rather than the actions to be taken: > > Noel: "there is no them and us, no black and white, > we are all Australians" > > Brent: "Indigenous Australian recognition is a given" > Which is the usual statement from folks who either don't have empathy for or don't understand that those statements are simply not true as experienced by indigenous Australians. This is a systematic problem in Australia. Maybe a "welcome to country" won't solve it but it's a step towards ensuring we don't assume the problem is solved because we feel like "all Australians are equal" when reality suggests otherwise. Regards James Turnbull -- * The Art of Monitoring (http://artofmonitoring.com) * The Docker Book (http://dockerbook.com) * The LogStash Book (http://logstashbook.com) * Pro Puppet (http://tinyurl.com/ppuppet2 ) * Pro Linux System Administration (http://tinyurl.com/linuxadmin) * Hardening Linux (http://tinyurl.com/hardeninglinux) From matthew.lye at ubuntu.com Sun Nov 8 08:42:02 2015 From: matthew.lye at ubuntu.com (Matthew Lye) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 07:42:02 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> Message-ID: Not to make too finer point on the issue but it is common practice all around the world for western countries, in different ways, to acknowledge the indigenous populations that they supplanted. Rather than justifying why we should do a welcome to country or the more common acknowledgement of traditional owners we should be critically assessing any reason presented why not to. The best reason I have seen so far is that another minority group may be offended, or other minority groups may expect us to do something similarly special for them. I consider both reasons to be irrelevant as neither are the indigenous population of the host country. Look at how New Zealand as grown as its adopted the Maori culture as an equal to its western counterpart, no other culture demanded the same respect for them because it would be foolish and counter productive. -Matthew Lye Leadership is responsibility, not privilege, Action, not position, Guidance, not knowledge, and outcome, not disposition. "Speech is conveniently located midway between thought and action, where it often substitutes for both." - John Andrew Holmes On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 2:43 AM, James Turnbull wrote: > > I don't see why you should. Are you treating them any different to, say, > > members of an evangelical church who might have some interesting thoughts > > on community leadership to share? > > Yes - because both groups have differing amounts of power. Evangelical > Christians wield enormous economic and political power in Australia. > > Indigenous groups are thrilled if people remember they exist. Poverty, > disease, institutional racism (c.f. the incarceration rates of > indigenous Australians), radically shorter lifespans all remain > documented problems for those communities. > > > (At least, treating them any differently in any way other than choosing > > where to direct /your/ time and focus, for which you're certainly allowed > > to be as biassed as you like) > > > > I mean consider what Noel and Brent actually said on the principle > > rather than the actions to be taken: > > > > Noel: "there is no them and us, no black and white, > > we are all Australians" > > > > Brent: "Indigenous Australian recognition is a given" > > > > Which is the usual statement from folks who either don't have empathy > for or don't understand that those statements are simply not true as > experienced by indigenous Australians. > > This is a systematic problem in Australia. Maybe a "welcome to country" > won't solve it but it's a step towards ensuring we don't assume the > problem is solved because we feel like "all Australians are equal" when > reality suggests otherwise. > > Regards > > James Turnbull > > -- > * The Art of Monitoring (http://artofmonitoring.com) > * The Docker Book (http://dockerbook.com) > * The LogStash Book (http://logstashbook.com) > * Pro Puppet (http://tinyurl.com/ppuppet2 ) > * Pro Linux System Administration (http://tinyurl.com/linuxadmin) > * Hardening Linux (http://tinyurl.com/hardeninglinux) > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kim at hawtin.net.au Sun Nov 8 08:47:39 2015 From: kim at hawtin.net.au (Kim Hawtin) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 07:47:39 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Open Radio Miniconf Call for Presentations at LCA2016 Message-ID: <563E717B.9040703@hawtin.net.au> Morning all, The Call for Presentations for the Open Radio Miniconf at LCA2016 is now open! All details are available on the LCA2016 wiki at https://linux.conf.au/wiki/Open_Radio_Miniconf A copy of the CfP is included below - please pass this along to your radio and open source networks and anyone else that you may think would be interested. As highlighted in the CfP below, we're especially keen to make the Open Radio Minconf a diverse and inclusive event. If you know anyone from a group that is typically under-represented at tech events who may be interested in presenting, please take a moment to forward this CfP on to them. regards, Kim VK5FJ == Open Radio Miniconf Call for Presentations at LCA2016 == === Submission Dates === * November 1st, Announce CfP for talks * November 30th, Close CfP * December 13th, announce programme * February 2nd, MiniConf [1] === 'No pressure' policy === The Open Radio Miniconf is a low-pressure event, and we strongly encourage anyone who has an idea for an radio-related talk to submit a proposal even if you've never presented at a conference before. Please share this CfP with anyone you know who may otherwise not consider submitting a proposal. === Commitment to Diversity === We are especially keen to present a diverse range of experiences and voices, and actively encourage women and people from other groups that are frequently under-represented at tech events to submit a proposal. Please share this CfP with anyone you know who may fit with this objective. === Suggested Presentation Topics === Any topic which is related to both radio and open source technologies is considered on-topic for the Open Radio Miniconf. Some ideas include: * Hardware for SDR * Software for SDR * Protocols over the air * Digital voice * Understanding data modes * Encoding and Decoding data * Logging data or voice * Positioning * Radio direction finding * Here's a cool thing I did with my SDR * Take a look at my new modem for digital modes * Simple data links with cheap radio chips === Presentation Format === Presentations will be 'lightning talks' session with multiple 5-15 minute mini-presentations. Ideally we would like to see proposals for longer lightning talks, you can also just present on the day (this is a very low-pressure way to ease yourself into presenting, so please have a think in advance about what you'd like to present). === Need some help? === If you have an idea (or the beginning of an idea) for a presentation for the Open Radio Miniconf, we'd be very happy to talk it through with you to help you develop it further. Email Kim VK5FJ at vk5fj at wia.org.au or ping him at @vk5fj on Twitter to start the conversation. === Code of Conduct === Anyone presenting at the Open Miniconf is bound by the same Code of Conduct as presenters and conference attendees of the main conference. The full LCA2016 Code of Conduct is at http://linux.conf.au/cor/code_of_conduct To help ensure that presentations comply with the Code of Conduct, we require presenters to submit a copy of their presentation/slide deck for review by Monday 25th January, 2016 (one week prior to the start of LCA). === Presenter Responsibilities === Presenters at the Open Radio Miniconf must be registered attendees of the main LCA2016 conference. Presenters are responsible for their own conference registration, travel, and accommodation costs. === How to Submit Proposals === Please submit your proposal(s) by email Kim VK5FJ at vk5fj at wia.org.au We encourage you to submit multiple proposals if you have multiple ideas. 72, Kim VK5FJ Open Radio Miniconf Net Operator PS - copy used with permission from the Astronomy Miniconf CfP From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Sun Nov 8 10:36:10 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 10:36:10 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country Message-ID: Re: Donna, James and Matthew. Pretty much so. Not being from Australia I've found no reasons to feel 'guilty' and plenty of reasons to actively participate in positively addressing an enormous, drawn-out injustice which still has significant negative consequences for the indigenous population. I've attended loads of these events and helped arranged some. I have never had any discussion with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander colleagues, staff, attendees (including adult students I've taught) that has indicated a negative view OTHER than that this is a small step; part of a solution not THE solution. Regards, Patrick From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Sun Nov 8 09:42:45 2015 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:42:45 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy Message-ID: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au> Hi everyone, The level of debate on this issue has ranged from puerile histrionics, unworthy of a place in this community, to genuine, thoughtful and well informed attempts to build an inclusive, welcoming and mature organisation. In an attempt to strengthen the latter, I've drafted a Policy which I now seek feedback on at the Policies mailing list. https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/pull/10/ Kind regards, Kathy Reid From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Sun Nov 8 12:01:47 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:31:47 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] [LA-Policies] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy In-Reply-To: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au> References: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <002101d119c1$0be7acd0$23b70670$@adam.com.au> Hi Kathy, > -----Original Message----- > https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/pull/10/ I've made some mostly style marks as line comments at github; I hope that's the right place to put it. In general, the intention of the policy is good although I've made my reservations about it on the main mailing list. The most contentious change, I suppose, would be my suggestion to change: "* Payment will be made for an Indigenous Elder providing a Welcome to Country at or above the appropriate rate for such services, or in line with local cultural protocol." Into "* Linux Australia will provide or pay for an Indigenous Elder providing a Welcome to Country at or above the appropriate rate for such services, or in line with local cultural protocol." I would assume that user group meetings, not directly under the auspice of Linux Australia, are somewhat immune to Linux Australia's policies If, for whatever reason, Linux Australia would disassociate itself with a user group that did not follow this policy or protocol [or for that matter any other of Linux Australia's policies and protocols], I'd suggest that the council might want to contact all the organisers of the user groups it is aware of to make this known. I would think that if Linux Australia sponsored an event in some way then it probably falls under this protocol but unless Linux Australia itself takes responsibility for a local user group meeting, perhaps including payment for facilities, local organisation, liability insurance and such then user groups are free to incorporate this kind of policy or not. DSL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noel.butler at ausics.net Sun Nov 8 14:07:50 2015 From: noel.butler at ausics.net (Noel Butler) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:07:50 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> Message-ID: <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> On 08/11/2015 02:43, James Turnbull wrote: >> I mean consider what Noel and Brent actually said on the principle >> rather than the actions to be taken: >> >> Noel: "there is no them and us, no black and white, >> we are all Australians" >> >> Brent: "Indigenous Australian recognition is a given" >> > > Which is the usual statement from folks who either don't have empathy > for or don't understand that those statements are simply not true as > experienced by indigenous Australians. > Do not EVER assume because someone has a different opinion than yours that their opinion is less worthy or lacks empathy or understanding, next you'll be trying to call me a fucking racist... fools like you making statements like that are part of the problem. But lets the keep this divide, lets enshrine it so it remains forever so there will always be an 'us and them' attitude, which is what they do NOT want, if you actually knew any indigenous people (excluding activists/radicals) on more than a passing basis, you'd know that's all they want, this is 2015, not 1915. -- If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/ From aj at erisian.com.au Sun Nov 8 15:22:51 2015 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 14:22:51 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> Message-ID: <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 11:43:05AM -0500, James Turnbull wrote: > > I don't see why you should. Are you treating them any different to, say, > > members of an evangelical church who might have some interesting thoughts > > on community leadership to share? > Yes - because both groups have differing amounts of power. Evangelical > Christians wield enormous economic and political power in Australia. In the Linux community, at least the parts of it I see, evangelical Christians are shunned and casually insulted with a fair degree of regularlity. They barely have any power, let alone a disproportionate amount. > Which is the usual statement from folks who either don't have empathy > for or don't understand that those statements are simply not true as > experienced by indigenous Australians. Which is the usual statement from folks who don't care to debate with anyone who disagrees with them, and don't have to because they have sufficient political and cultural power to ignore them. (And hey, I don't even need to be able to read minds to provide evidence for my claim.) Cheers, aj, at this point thinking maybe it's a good thing he missed earlybird prices and can still choose to skip lca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Sun Nov 8 16:53:45 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:23:45 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> Message-ID: <000001d119e9$d61cc8a0$825659e0$@adam.com.au> Hmmm, > Do not EVER assume because someone has a different opinion than > yours that their opinion is less worthy or lacks empathy or > understanding, next you'll be trying to call me a fucking racist... fools like > you making statements like that are part of the problem. Did someone replace "mention of Nazis" with "the word fucking"? Whilst this is an out and out assumption, from what I can tell you (as in Noel) are actually a well-written, witty and eloquent writer...and I'm sure you (and yes, I am saying you as in Noel) could possibly express yourself without using the word "fucking". Besides, it's far more fun to do that, than to say it on a public mailing list. DSL From russell at coker.com.au Sun Nov 8 18:14:07 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:14:07 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> Message-ID: <201511081814.07829.russell@coker.com.au> On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 03:22:51 PM Anthony Towns wrote: > On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 11:43:05AM -0500, James Turnbull wrote: > > > I don't see why you should. Are you treating them any different to, > > > say, members of an evangelical church who might have some interesting > > > thoughts on community leadership to share? > > > > Yes - because both groups have differing amounts of power. Evangelical > > Christians wield enormous economic and political power in Australia. > > In the Linux community, at least the parts of it I see, evangelical > Christians are shunned and casually insulted with a fair degree of > regularlity. They barely have any power, let alone a disproportionate > amount. In the general Australian community they have a lot of power. The fact that we can tell them off when they get too homophobic or misogynistic on mailing lists doesn't mean that they lack power. The fact that they feel comfortable in being homophobic and misogynistic and generally don't face any consequences other than people disagreeing with them is an indication of their general position in society. > > Which is the usual statement from folks who either don't have empathy > > for or don't understand that those statements are simply not true as > > experienced by indigenous Australians. > > Which is the usual statement from folks who don't care to debate with > anyone who disagrees with them, and don't have to because they have > sufficient political and cultural power to ignore them. That's an interesting variation on the reverse-racism theme. I'm sure that like me James knows lots of white Australians who are hostile to Aborigines. Like me I'm sure he has debated all these issues before on many occasions. > Cheers, > aj, at this point thinking maybe it's a good thing he missed earlybird > prices and can still choose to skip lca Wow, so you're going to boycot LCA if there's recognition of Aborigines. How do you think people will react when they read about this sort of thing in history books in 20 years? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Sun Nov 8 18:25:31 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:25:31 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> Message-ID: <201511081825.31290.russell@coker.com.au> On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:07:50 PM Noel Butler wrote: > > Which is the usual statement from folks who either don't have empathy > > for or don't understand that those statements are simply not true as > > experienced by indigenous Australians. > > Do not EVER assume because someone has a different opinion than yours > that their opinion is less worthy or lacks empathy or understanding, > next you'll be trying to call me a fucking racist... fools like you > making statements like that are part of the problem. http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s-not-your-opinion-you-re-just-wrong- updated-7611752 Noel, you are demonstrating less empathy here than most people in this discussion. Also "opinion" is not an excuse. If you don't want people to think of you as racist then take a different approach to discussions of race. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From james at lovedthanlost.net Mon Nov 9 00:59:10 2015 From: james at lovedthanlost.net (James Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:59:10 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <8543537de859aae3a993b2975f82be8e@ausics.net> Message-ID: <563F552E.7060801@lovedthanlost.net> > Do not EVER assume because someone has a different opinion than yours > that their opinion is less worthy or lacks empathy or understanding, > next you'll be trying to call me a fucking racist... fools like you > making statements like that are part of the problem. No - you're just wrong. I'm not going to bother being polite about it. I'm not sure if you're a racist, fucking or otherwise but if you can pretend it's all rosy and "we're all Australian" then you're at the very least in denial. Try to be part of the solution rather than the problem. Best wishes! James Turnbull -- * The Art of Monitoring (http://artofmonitoring.com) * The Docker Book (http://dockerbook.com) * The LogStash Book (http://logstashbook.com) * Pro Puppet (http://tinyurl.com/ppuppet2 ) * Pro Linux System Administration (http://tinyurl.com/linuxadmin) * Hardening Linux (http://tinyurl.com/hardeninglinux) From james at lovedthanlost.net Mon Nov 9 01:10:35 2015 From: james at lovedthanlost.net (James Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:10:35 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> Message-ID: <563F57DB.1010306@lovedthanlost.net> > Which is the usual statement from folks who don't care to debate with > anyone who disagrees with them, and don't have to because they have > sufficient political and cultural power to ignore them. > > (And hey, I don't even need to be able to read minds to provide evidence > for my claim.) > I'm not ignoring those arguments. I plain and simple think they are not true. I don't need to debate them either, pretty much all the evidence demonstrates they are not true. Here's a statistic. "At the national level for 2005?2007, the gap between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and non-Indigenous life expectancy was 11.5 years for males and 9.7 years for females." http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs at .nsf/lookup/4704.0Chapter218Oct+2010 Or how about this one: "Indigenous Australians are very much over-represented in Australian prison populations, with imprisonment rates that are around 12 times those of the rest of the Australian population. Despite making up less than three per cent of the overall Australian population, Indigenous people make up 40 per cent of those imprisoned for assault offences. Rates of over-representation are even higher in juvenile detention, with a 10-17 year old Indigenous person being around 24 times more likely to be in detention than a non-Indigenous person of the same age." http://www.aic.gov.au/crime_types/in_focus/indigenousjustice.html If we're all "equal" then it's a funny kind of equal. Recognizing indigenous people is one of the ways we can keep front-of-mind that things are not okay. That it also shows respect for the traditions of that community is Kind Regards James Turnbull -- * The Art of Monitoring (http://artofmonitoring.com) * The Docker Book (http://dockerbook.com) * The LogStash Book (http://logstashbook.com) * Pro Puppet (http://tinyurl.com/ppuppet2 ) * Pro Linux System Administration (http://tinyurl.com/linuxadmin) * Hardening Linux (http://tinyurl.com/hardeninglinux) From james at lovedthanlost.net Mon Nov 9 01:13:25 2015 From: james at lovedthanlost.net (James Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:13:25 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <563F57DB.1010306@lovedthanlost.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> <563F57DB.1010306@lovedthanlost.net> Message-ID: <563F5885.7000302@lovedthanlost.net> Something got cut off here. > Recognizing indigenous people is one of the ways we can keep > front-of-mind that things are not okay. That it also shows respect for > the traditions of that community is an added incentive. Regards James -- * The Art of Monitoring (http://artofmonitoring.com) * The Docker Book (http://dockerbook.com) * The LogStash Book (http://logstashbook.com) * Pro Puppet (http://tinyurl.com/ppuppet2 ) * Pro Linux System Administration (http://tinyurl.com/linuxadmin) * Hardening Linux (http://tinyurl.com/hardeninglinux) From michael at the-davies.net Mon Nov 9 08:49:40 2015 From: michael at the-davies.net (Michael Davies) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:19:40 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <563F5885.7000302@lovedthanlost.net> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <925526190.10210.1446859968880.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> <20151107073631.GA8569@navy> <563E2A19.70000@lovedthanlost.net> <20151108042250.GA15993@navy> <563F57DB.1010306@lovedthanlost.net> <563F5885.7000302@lovedthanlost.net> Message-ID: I'd like to refer to a portion of http://linux.org.au/values > Respect > > We value respect for people, for community, and for society. This includes respect for the opinions, ideals and choices of others, for the communities which we create and participate in, and for society as a whole. It is vital that > while we uphold our ideals, we respect the ideals of others. We obey lawful restrictions placed upon us, particularly with reference to licencing, copyright and patent law, to the best of our ability. > > Diversity > > People of all ages, genders, nationalities, ethnicities, backgrounds, abilities and walks of life are part of the communities we serve. We respect and encourage diversity at our conferences, events, and other activities There's been a lot of intolerance shown on this thread, that is both unhelpful to the conversation, and hurtful to people. While I understand people are passionate about various ideas and ideals, attacking overs with broad generalisations is not what Linux Australia is all about. Accepting alternate points of view is a sign of maturity. Let's keep the conversation civil, and let's be respectful in our replies to others - even if we don't agree with their point of view. -- Michael Davies michael at the-davies.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at stumbles.id.au Mon Nov 9 09:57:09 2015 From: ben at stumbles.id.au (Ben Sturmfels) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:57:09 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: <20151106004325.GA82985@cskk.homeip.net> References: <1446762076.3279.5.camel@stuart.id.au> <20151106004325.GA82985@cskk.homeip.net> Message-ID: <563FD345.9060103@stumbles.id.au> On 06/11/15 11:43, Cameron Simpson wrote: > On 06Nov2015 08:21, Russell Stuart wrote: >> On Fri, 2015-11-06 at 08:14 +1100, Mark Walkom wrote: >>> I'll second this. >> >> I'm struggling to think of for purpose for that clause, other that as >> direct attack on the copy left licences. > > Are you? I'm not. Firstly, it in NO WAY affects GPL stuff. What it > precludes is one government (call them "A") requiring access to source > code developed/owned under another government ("B") as a condition of > offering that software for sale in the territory of the first government > ("A"). It's not much consolation that *existing* free software won't be affected - it's the software that we haven't freed yet that matters most. Requiring one of the four freedoms (source code) to distribute software within Australia would be a huge win to the free software movement. After all, the purpose of the movement is freeing everyone from proprietary software. Our government shouldn't relinquish the option, however unlikely, to require source code as a condition of import. Regards, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From russell at coker.com.au Mon Nov 9 11:45:03 2015 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:45:03 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <563F5885.7000302@lovedthanlost.net> Message-ID: <201511091145.03152.russell@coker.com.au> On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:49:40 AM Michael Davies wrote: > While I understand people are passionate about various ideas and ideals, > attacking overs with broad generalisations is not what Linux Australia is > all about. Accepting alternate points of view is a sign of maturity. What exactly are you saying here? When someone acts in a way that seems racist and says "next you'll be trying to call me a fucking racist" do you think we should lie about the fact that their actions do seem racist? I don't think that we should be required to accept alternate points of view that discriminate against other people. I don't think we should accept racism, sexism, homophobia, or transphobia. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From michael at the-davies.net Mon Nov 9 11:56:57 2015 From: michael at the-davies.net (Michael Davies) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:26:57 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: <201511091145.03152.russell@coker.com.au> References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <563F5885.7000302@lovedthanlost.net> <201511091145.03152.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:49:40 AM Michael Davies wrote: > > While I understand people are passionate about various ideas and ideals, > > attacking overs with broad generalisations is not what Linux Australia is > > all about. Accepting alternate points of view is a sign of maturity. > > What exactly are you saying here? When someone acts in a way that seems > racist and says "next you'll be trying to call me a fucking racist" do you > think we should lie about the fact that their actions do seem racist? > > I don't think that we should be required to accept alternate points of view > that discriminate against other people. I don't think we should accept > racism, sexism, homophobia, or transphobia. I think that if you have a problem with the values of Linux Australia you should either advocate changing its values to remove tolerance, or you should find another community that supports your view on homogeneity. -- Michael Davies michael at the-davies.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josh at nitrotech.org Mon Nov 9 12:57:53 2015 From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:57:53 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Job listings on linux.org.au Message-ID: <563FFDA1.8090204@nitrotech.org> Hey all, Just a friendly reminder that there is a separate mailing list for receiving job advertisements. We have had a number of jobs listed there recently, and want to make sure that anyone who is interested is aware of this channel. If you are interested in currently available jobs postings, or would like to be kept informed in future, consider signing up to the jobs mailing list. You can sign up here: http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/jobs and you can also find them listed on the website here: http://linux.org.au/jobs If you are currently hiring for a linux or open source related position, please visit http://linux.org.au/node/add/job-post and follow the instructions. Cheers, Linux Australia (with thanks to Tennessee Leeuwenburg for the draft email) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From donna at kattekrab.net Mon Nov 9 13:53:36 2015 From: donna at kattekrab.net (Donna Benjamin) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:53:36 +1100 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party Message-ID: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Date: 9 November 2015 Project Name: Drupal 8 Release Party Aim of Project: Celebrate the launch of Drupal 8 Person Responsible for Request: Donna Benjamin Request: Dear Council and LA Community, I would like to request we use some of the operating surplus from DrupalSouth in Melbourne this year to cover venue hire and catering for a Melbourne Drupal 8 launch party. This has become something of a tradition in the Drupal community - there were launch parties all over the world in 2011 when Drupal 7 was released. Drupal 8 is due for release on November 19th. We are organising a party in Melbourne on the 20th. This also co-incides with Global Training Day. We're planning a party for 40-80 people, and would like to provide substantial nibbles and celebratory cupcakes. The venue requires us to commit to a minimum spend of $1000. I will also be seeking sponsorship from companies in the Drupal community. However, the Melbourne community are already organising a DrupalCamp for the following weekend, and I am conscious that many of the Usual Suspects have already committed support for that event, and I don't want to exhaust their goodwill. I ask Linux Australia to contribute $1000 - which ensures we meet the venue's minimum spend requirements, and that the volunteers organising this event will not be out of pocket if we can't raise funds from sponsors. I will be making some opening remarks at the party, and would mention Linux Australia's role in supporting not only the Drupal community, but all open source communities Australia. Promote the upcoming linux.conf.au in Geelong, shower LA in twitter kudos, and put the Linux Australia logo on our event website, which should be ready in a day or so. I realise there is less than the required 2 weeks until the event, so I also request the community provides their feedback quickly so council is able to make a timely decision, as I will need to work to find alternative funds to cover these costs. Thank you for considering this grant request. From president at linux.org.au Mon Nov 9 14:29:57 2015 From: president at linux.org.au (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:29:57 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country In-Reply-To: References: <20151105095334.GA7207@navy> <563F5885.7000302@lovedthanlost.net> <201511091145.03152.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <56401335.2030001@linux.org.au> Hey all, Due to the size and nature of this thread, all future discussion should take place on the policy mailing list[0]. The current thread on linux-aus will now be closed to allow for constructive conversation to continue in the more relevant location. Thanks, LA Council [0] http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neill at ingenious.com.au Mon Nov 9 14:47:50 2015 From: neill at ingenious.com.au (Neill Cox) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:47:50 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party In-Reply-To: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> References: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Message-ID: I'd normally be a little wary of spending LA money on a launch party, but as this is funds raised at another Drupal event it seems reasonable to me. I vote in favour. Regards, Neill On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Donna Benjamin wrote: > Date: 9 November 2015 > > Project Name: Drupal 8 Release Party > > Aim of Project: Celebrate the launch of Drupal 8 > > Person Responsible for Request: Donna Benjamin > > Request: Dear Council and LA Community, > > I would like to request we use some of the operating surplus from > DrupalSouth in Melbourne this year to cover venue hire and catering for a > Melbourne Drupal 8 launch party. > > This has become something of a tradition in the Drupal community - there > were launch parties all over the world in 2011 when Drupal 7 was released. > > Drupal 8 is due for release on November 19th. We are organising a party in > Melbourne on the 20th. This also co-incides with Global Training Day. > > We're planning a party for 40-80 people, and would like to provide > substantial nibbles and celebratory cupcakes. The venue requires us to > commit to a minimum spend of $1000. I will also be seeking sponsorship > from companies in the Drupal community. However, the Melbourne community > are already organising a DrupalCamp for the following weekend, and I am > conscious that many of the Usual Suspects have already committed support > for that event, and I don't want to exhaust their goodwill. > > I ask Linux Australia to contribute $1000 - which ensures we meet the > venue's minimum spend requirements, and that the volunteers organising this > event will not be out of pocket if we can't raise funds from sponsors. > > I will be making some opening remarks at the party, and would mention > Linux Australia's role in supporting not only the Drupal community, but all > open source communities Australia. Promote the upcoming linux.conf.au in > Geelong, shower LA in twitter kudos, and put the Linux Australia logo on > our event website, which should be ready in a day or so. > > I realise there is less than the required 2 weeks until the event, so I > also request the community provides their feedback quickly so council is > able to make a timely decision, as I will need to work to find alternative > funds to cover these costs. > > Thank you for considering this grant request. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- Neill Cox Ingenious Software -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at donnellan.id.au Mon Nov 9 15:09:56 2015 From: andrew at donnellan.id.au (Andrew Donnellan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:09:56 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party In-Reply-To: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> References: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Message-ID: On 9 November 2015 at 13:53, Donna Benjamin wrote: > I ask Linux Australia to contribute $1000 - which ensures we meet the venue's minimum spend requirements, and that the volunteers organising this event will not be out of pocket if we can't raise funds from sponsors. > > I will be making some opening remarks at the party, and would mention Linux Australia's role in supporting not only the Drupal community, but all open source communities Australia. Promote the upcoming linux.conf.au in Geelong, shower LA in twitter kudos, and put the Linux Australia logo on our event website, which should be ready in a day or so. > > I realise there is less than the required 2 weeks until the event, so I also request the community provides their feedback quickly so council is able to make a timely decision, as I will need to work to find alternative funds to cover these costs. Given the strong connection between LA and the local Drupal community, and the fact that DrupalSouth is returning a surplus to LA, I support this request. -- Andrew Donnellan http://andrew.donnellan.id.au andrew at donnellan.id.au From tracy_anne at feral-penguin.com.au Mon Nov 9 15:07:39 2015 From: tracy_anne at feral-penguin.com.au (tracy) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:07:39 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Assistance required Message-ID: <20151109140739.39c33b41@daphne> I'm looking for someone, in the Hervey Bay, Toogoom, Torbanlea, Howard areas, who would be willing to provide support for an elderly gentleman who uses Linux. I was supporting him, but I have recently moved away from the area. He is willing to pay for your time. regards Tracy Barlow Sent from my Ubuntu Phone From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Mon Nov 9 16:55:03 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:25:03 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party In-Reply-To: References: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Message-ID: <017701d11ab3$2dffc4e0$89ff4ea0$@adam.com.au> Yes, I think it?s a good cause and I know Donna?s quite capable of promoting LA and the conference (although I?m not sure I could feed 80 ravenous open source like people with just that amount :P). From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au] On Behalf Of Neill Cox Sent: Monday, 9 November 2015 2:18 PM To: Donna Benjamin Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party I'd normally be a little wary of spending LA money on a launch party, but as this is funds raised at another Drupal event it seems reasonable to me. I vote in favour. Regards, Neill On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Donna Benjamin > wrote: Date: 9 November 2015 Project Name: Drupal 8 Release Party Aim of Project: Celebrate the launch of Drupal 8 Person Responsible for Request: Donna Benjamin Request: Dear Council and LA Community, I would like to request we use some of the operating surplus from DrupalSouth in Melbourne this year to cover venue hire and catering for a Melbourne Drupal 8 launch party. This has become something of a tradition in the Drupal community - there were launch parties all over the world in 2011 when Drupal 7 was released. Drupal 8 is due for release on November 19th. We are organising a party in Melbourne on the 20th. This also co-incides with Global Training Day. We're planning a party for 40-80 people, and would like to provide substantial nibbles and celebratory cupcakes. The venue requires us to commit to a minimum spend of $1000. I will also be seeking sponsorship from companies in the Drupal community. However, the Melbourne community are already organising a DrupalCamp for the following weekend, and I am conscious that many of the Usual Suspects have already committed support for that event, and I don't want to exhaust their goodwill. I ask Linux Australia to contribute $1000 - which ensures we meet the venue's minimum spend requirements, and that the volunteers organising this event will not be out of pocket if we can't raise funds from sponsors. I will be making some opening remarks at the party, and would mention Linux Australia's role in supporting not only the Drupal community, but all open source communities Australia. Promote the upcoming linux.conf.au in Geelong, shower LA in twitter kudos, and put the Linux Australia logo on our event website, which should be ready in a day or so. I realise there is less than the required 2 weeks until the event, so I also request the community provides their feedback quickly so council is able to make a timely decision, as I will need to work to find alternative funds to cover these costs. Thank you for considering this grant request. _______________________________________________ linux-aus mailing list linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -- Neill Cox Ingenious Software -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Mon Nov 9 19:14:01 2015 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:14:01 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party Message-ID: <564055C9.4040007@kathyreid.id.au> I am supportive of this request on the basis that; - DrupalSouth made a profit this year which was returned to Linux Australia - The event is a community building event and promotes a strong community - Donna is an excellent organiser - It aids against 'sponsor fatigue' as mentioned by Donna - Cake. Cake always gets my vote ;-) Kind regards, and best wishes for the Drupal 8 launch, Kathy Reid From ilox11 at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 17:47:00 2015 From: ilox11 at gmail.com (Ian) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:17:00 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Request: Officially oppose TPP Source Code provision In-Reply-To: <563FD345.9060103@stumbles.id.au> References: <1446762076.3279.5.camel@stuart.id.au> <20151106004325.GA82985@cskk.homeip.net> <563FD345.9060103@stumbles.id.au> Message-ID: Picking on clauses is an interesting exercise but what we all need to be aware of is that the whole block of the TPP is an all or nothing agreement. Our Parliament has only two choices, to accept the TPP in its entirety or to reject it in its entirety. No 'party' has the right to negotiate which parts of the TPP it will honour and which it will ignore. That is the crux of the problem with the TPP. It has been negotiated in secret with only bureaucrats and corporate entities involved in those negotiations. Then they have trundled out the pollies to "sign" the agreements on behalf of their respective nations. Now the Government of the day, through a small Treaty sub-Committee of Federal Parliament, is to rubber stamp the agreement which means we as Australians adopt all of the package, good and bad. It is an interesting idea asking LA to advocate against certain clauses but unless you are asking LA to advocate against the entirety then there is little that any action by LA can affect. The clauses in the TPP cannot be re-written to suit any one 'party' nation. Personally I think the TPP has enough stench that it should be opposed but that is only a personal view. I cant expect a body such as LA to take a public stance on the TPP based on a couple of clauses that may or may not mean what us laymen think they mean. It must be noted that the EFF have clearly come out in opposition to a number of aspects of the package and therefore are against the adoption of the TPP [1] and I think it is entirely reasonable for LA to attach their support to the EFA in this stance as they have done at times in the past. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/release-full-tpp-text-after-five-years-secrecy-confirms-threats-users-rights -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From contact at lcabythebay.org.au Wed Nov 11 19:53:15 2015 From: contact at lcabythebay.org.au (linux.conf.au 2016 Geelong Team) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:53:15 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA2016 Optiver Diversity Programme Announced Message-ID: <564301FB.1010509@lcabythebay.org.au> The organisers of linux.conf.au 2016, in partnership with Optiver, are very proud to announce our diversity programme for 2016! LCA2016 and Optiver are proud to be able to support diversity in our community. The Optiver Diversity Programme is intended to ensure that linux.conf.au continues to be a safe, open, and welcoming conference for everyone. Together with Optiver the programme has been developed to assist delegates from under-represented cohorts who contribute to the Open Source community but, without financial assistance, would not be able to attend LCA2016. For more information please see our Optiver Diversity Programme page: https://linux.conf.au/register/diversity Potential Delegates and Speakers are encouraged to remain up to date with conference news through one of the following channels; Website:http://lcabythebay.org.au Twitter: @linuxconfau, hashtag #lca2016 Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/lcabythebay Google+:https://www.google.com/+LcabythebayOrgAu Lanyrd:http://lanyrd.com/2016/linuxconfau/ IRC: #linux.conf.au on freenode.net Email: info at lcabythebay.org.au Announce mailing list:http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/lca-announce We warmly encourage you to forward this announcement to technical communities you may be involved in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derrend at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 12 18:14:28 2015 From: derrend at yahoo.co.uk (Derren Desouza) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:14:28 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Re: Grant application In-Reply-To: <5620183D.4020804@blemings.org> References: <5615EAA5.3040704@yahoo.co.uk> <561F140C.20406@yahoo.co.uk> <5620183D.4020804@blemings.org> Message-ID: <56443C54.4090404@yahoo.co.uk> Hello, I'm not sure if this is the correct email for the mailing list but I just wanted to update the community that the first implementation of the Android app is now available from the info page of cryptoproof - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1059474.0 The source code for the app is available on github - https://github.com/derrend/scanner Thanks :) On 16/10/15 07:18, Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > On 15/10/2015 13:48, Derren Desouza wrote: >> Hello again, >> >> I would like to apply for a grant for advertisement revenue. >> I have developed the service explained in my previous email which may be >> viewed below to a usable level but my aims have not changed.> > > > > [...] > > I may have missed the link Derren but is the source code for your > project available ? If not do you have plans to release the work under > a Free Software/Open Source/Creative Commons license ? > > I believe this is an important criteria for Linux Australia in > evaluating grant applications no matter what the merit (or lack thereof) > the project may otherwise have. > > Cheers, > Hugh > > From nicholas.farrell at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 19:13:20 2015 From: nicholas.farrell at gmail.com (Nick Farrell) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:13:20 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Call for Special Events @ PyCon AU 2016 Message-ID: PyCon Australia 2016 is being held in Melbourne from Friday August 12 to Tuesday August 16. The first day of the conference is the Specialist Day (previously called miniconfs). Email the organising committee at contact at pycon-au.org to register your interest as soon as possible, just let us know who you are and what you might be interested in running. We?ll then send you the information pack which contains more information on key questions and some helpful pointers for running the events. In previous years, special events associated with PyCon Australia have been organised by invitation of the main conference organising committee. This year, an open call will be issued so that any group wishing to organise a special event may apply (including to organisers of special events in previous years). The organising committee will then review and select the events to include in the PyCon Australia 2016 program. Special event organisers will then be brought on as an event organising team, working with the main organising committee and other special event organisers to put together a great community driven event. Examples of special events that could be included in the program: - Up to 4 specialist tracks (aka "miniconfs") for Friday's Specialist Day (e.g. DjangoCon AU, Python in Education seminar) - Workshops running in parallel with the sprints (e.g. DjangoGirls, Young Coders) - Associated events run independently, but take advantage of the presence of a large contingent of Pythonistas in Melbourne (e.g. Software Carpentry workshops) - Icebreaker events for Friday evening or social events during the sprints These events are all hailed as a major highlight by conference attendees and rely on community members coming forward to help organise them. It?s also our chance to help out these groups, as organisers can take advantage of the gathered forces of the Australian Python community without the full burden of organising a national event. This is our call to the community: please put up your hand and make yourself known. Schedule: Call for expressions of interest: 15 November - 20 December Shortlisting of submissions: 20 December 2015 - 15th January Finalising of shortlisted bids: 30 January 2015 Special event list finalised: 5 February 2015 In previous years, some special events have been organised late in the piece. This schedule is a nominal time-frame to encourage people to engage earlier, however the committee will consider late submissions if they will improve the conference. Early submissions will have priority for rooms and other support. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From president at linux.org.au Sun Nov 15 22:16:27 2015 From: president at linux.org.au (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:16:27 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] [LACTTE] Grant application In-Reply-To: <5623814E.8030506@yahoo.co.uk> References: <55541902.7050707@yahoo.co.uk> <5615EAA5.3040704@yahoo.co.uk> <561C7264.4060701@nitrotech.org> <561F7271.3050706@yahoo.co.uk> <56237F48.7040502@nitrotech.org> <5623814E.8030506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5648698B.4020404@linux.org.au> Hi Derren, My apologies for the delay in returning to you. The council discussed this during our teleconf on the 4th of November. * * Grant application from Derren Desouza o MOTION Josh H, Linux Australia Council politely declines the grant request given the feedback from the Community*.* o Seconded Craige o Passed unanimously * We wish you the best of luck with your project and hope that this doesn't discourage you. Kind regards, LA Council On 18/10/15 22:23, Derren Desouza wrote: > No problem, thank you for the info :) > > On 18/10/15 21:15, Joshua Hesketh wrote: >> Hello Derren, >> >> Thanks for the extra details. I have seen them come through the >> list. The process is to allow for a minimum of 2 weeks of feedback >> from the community. After that the council will deliberate and get >> back to you in due course. Please allow 3-4 weeks due to our >> meeting timetable. >> >> Cheers, Josh >> >> On 15/10/15 20:31, Derren Desouza wrote: >>> Hello Joshua, >>> >>> I have also sent my request to linux-aus at linux.org.au as you >>> suggested however if possible I would like my original grant >>> application to be reconsidered if it was simply missed last time. >>> The second time around I applied only for an advertising budget >>> since I assumed I had been rejected. >>> >>> The need for funding to support hosting, ssl certificates, url >>> registration etc did not change it just came out of my own >>> pocket. Also android and ios application development, multisig >>> support, additional hosting resources, peer review, platform >>> migration, I need to host my own bitcoin node rather than rely on >>> the blockchain.info api and undoubtedly numerous other milestones >>> that are not occurring to me on the spot right now are still to >>> be implemented which are all additional to the publicity budget. >>> >>> My project is built on 100% opensource software, it provides a >>> valuable service to the community by protecting them from >>> counterfeiting and lets them verify who the original producers of >>> their products are. >>> >>> Other solutions being floated in the 3D printing space involve >>> exotic ideas like "quantum dots" and "imperfect crystals" which >>> glow a particular colour when light at a certain frequency is >>> shined upon them. >>> >>> I am incorporating cryptography and blockchain technology in one >>> go and it's all built on top of and powered by linux. >>> >>> >>> On 13/10/15 12:54, Joshua Hesketh wrote: >>>> Hello Derren, >>>> >>>> Firstly my sincere apologies that we appear to have missed your >>>> previous grant application. I don't recall seeing an email so >>>> it's possible it got lost in the storm of moderated emails >>>> sorry. >>>> >>>> Thank you for your grant request, the council will deliberate >>>> over it. In the mean time, would you mind sending your request >>>> to linux-aus at linux.org.au for the wider membership to provide >>>> feedback? The process is documented here: >>>> http://linux.org.au/projects/grants >>>> >>>> Thanks, Josh >>>> >>>> On 08/10/15 15:01, Derren Desouza wrote: >>>>> Hello again, >>>>> >>>>> Allow me to begin by by thanking the council for completely >>>>> ignoring my previous grant application lodged six months ago, >>>>> had I asked for funds to print t-shirts or inflate balloons I >>>>> expect I may have had more success. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to apply for a grant for advertisement revenue. >>>>> I have developed my website explained in my previous email >>>>> which may be viewed below to a usable level but my aims have >>>>> not changed. >>>>> >>>>> I would humbly request funding for 1000 impressions per day >>>>> for the next 180 days on coindesk.org, at $35 (US) CPM, which >>>>> would be $8820 (AU) or $1470 per month for the next six >>>>> months. >>>>> >>>>> On 14/05/15 13:39, Derren Desouza wrote: >>>>>> Date: 14/05/2014 >>>>>> >>>>>> Project Name: CPOP - Cryptographic Proof Of Production >>>>>> >>>>>> Aim of Project: Produce a service for the general public >>>>>> whereby normal people will be able to verify to an >>>>>> exceptional hight degree of certainty that products or >>>>>> services provided to them originated from the source that >>>>>> they expect with ease. >>>>>> >>>>>> A prototype is already available for testing at >>>>>> http://cryptoproof.info >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see attached proposal for further details. >>>>>> >>>>>> Person Responsible for Request: Derren Desouza (myself) >>>>>> >>>>>> Request: $2000 per calendar month for the next 12 months. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ committee >>>>>> mailing list committee at lists.linux.org.au >>>>>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/committee >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Sun Nov 15 22:32:22 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:32:22 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound Message-ID: Hi All, My new machine has an ASUS motherboard: H170M-E D3 and an AMD Radeon R7 360 video card. I'm running Kubuntu 14.04 I am getting no sound through the motherboard's onboard sound card. I get sound over HDMI and fortunately my monitor has an HDMI port AND built in speakers. However these are no-where near as good as my desktop speakers. The only option in the BIOS is HD Audio Controller (enable/disable). However nothing I change here has any effect. In the GUI the onboard sound is greyed out. Alsamixer shows HDMI sound only. The desktop GUI shows only HDMI. aplay -l shows only the HDMI sound. I have tried a number of things including /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist I have added snd_hda_intel and adding a line in GRUB radeon.audio=1 and using 0 as well. I have found another possible solution here: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/ Which suggests, under Linux kernel parameters Option: radeon.audio Value:: 0,1 Default Value: 0 Explanation: Disable/enable HDMI audio My question is: what *do* I do with this? I'm assuming I need to add/remove something *somwhere* but...where/what? Any help would be most appreciated. Without the onboard sound card I'm stuck with the crappy monitor speakers and cannot use headphones nor use a microphone for video conferencing etc. Regards, Patrick From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Sun Nov 15 22:59:46 2015 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:59:46 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151115215946.2988c109@korath.teln.shikadi.net> This is probably a little off-topic for this list, since it's not specific to Australia, so you might be better off visiting your distro's forums. But anyway since we're here... > I have tried a number of things including > /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist I have added > > snd_hda_intel This will generally disable onboard sound, so you probably want to make sure that module gets loaded. Make sure you check dmesg for any audio-related messages, in case there's an issue initialising the audio chip. You don't have to worry about disabling HDMI audio, if you set your default sound device correctly (e.g. in /etc/asound.conf) then the HDMI device will never be used. Consider yourself lucky - getting audio to work over HDMI is usually the challenge! Cheers, Adam. From josh at nitrotech.org Mon Nov 16 13:36:33 2015 From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:36:33 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56494131.10905@nitrotech.org> Hey, Not sure if it helps, but I find the pulseaudio volume control (pavucontrol) to have more options which allows me to set the ports for various devices. Cheers, Josh On 15/11/15 22:32, Patrick Elliott-Brennan wrote: > Hi All, > > My new machine has an ASUS motherboard: > > H170M-E D3 > > > and an AMD Radeon R7 360 video card. > > > I'm running Kubuntu 14.04 > > > I am getting no sound through the motherboard's onboard sound card. > > I get sound over HDMI and fortunately my monitor has an HDMI port AND > built in speakers. However these are no-where near as good as my > desktop speakers. > > The only option in the BIOS is HD Audio Controller (enable/disable). > However nothing I change here has any effect. > > In the GUI the onboard sound is greyed out. Alsamixer shows HDMI sound > only. The desktop GUI shows only HDMI. > > aplay -l shows only the HDMI sound. > > I have tried a number of things including > /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist I have added > > snd_hda_intel > > and adding a line in GRUB > radeon.audio=1 and using 0 as well. > > I have found another possible solution here: > http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/ > > Which suggests, under Linux kernel parameters > > Option: radeon.audio > Value:: 0,1 > Default Value: 0 > Explanation: Disable/enable HDMI audio > > My question is: what *do* I do with this? I'm assuming I need to > add/remove something *somwhere* but...where/what? > > Any help would be most appreciated. Without the onboard sound card I'm > stuck with the crappy monitor speakers and cannot use headphones nor > use a microphone for video conferencing etc. > > Regards, > > Patrick > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Mon Nov 16 13:40:33 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:40:33 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound In-Reply-To: <56494131.10905@nitrotech.org> References: <56494131.10905@nitrotech.org> Message-ID: Thanks Josh. I'll try that when I get home. Regards, Patrick On 16 Nov 2015 13:36, "Joshua Hesketh" wrote: > Hey, > > Not sure if it helps, but I find the pulseaudio volume control > (pavucontrol) to have more options which allows me to set the ports for > various devices. > > Cheers, > Josh > > On 15/11/15 22:32, Patrick Elliott-Brennan wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > My new machine has an ASUS motherboard: > > > > H170M-E D3 > > > > > > and an AMD Radeon R7 360 video card. > > > > > > I'm running Kubuntu 14.04 > > > > > > I am getting no sound through the motherboard's onboard sound card. > > > > I get sound over HDMI and fortunately my monitor has an HDMI port AND > > built in speakers. However these are no-where near as good as my > > desktop speakers. > > > > The only option in the BIOS is HD Audio Controller (enable/disable). > > However nothing I change here has any effect. > > > > In the GUI the onboard sound is greyed out. Alsamixer shows HDMI sound > > only. The desktop GUI shows only HDMI. > > > > aplay -l shows only the HDMI sound. > > > > I have tried a number of things including > > /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist I have added > > > > snd_hda_intel > > > > and adding a line in GRUB > > radeon.audio=1 and using 0 as well. > > > > I have found another possible solution here: > > http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/ > > > > Which suggests, under Linux kernel parameters > > > > Option: radeon.audio > > Value:: 0,1 > > Default Value: 0 > > Explanation: Disable/enable HDMI audio > > > > My question is: what *do* I do with this? I'm assuming I need to > > add/remove something *somwhere* but...where/what? > > > > Any help would be most appreciated. Without the onboard sound card I'm > > stuck with the crappy monitor speakers and cannot use headphones nor > > use a microphone for video conferencing etc. > > > > Regards, > > > > Patrick > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Mon Nov 16 18:06:04 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 18:06:04 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound In-Reply-To: <56494131.10905@nitrotech.org> References: <56494131.10905@nitrotech.org> Message-ID: Hi again Josh, Nope. Afraid that still only shows the HDMI audio device. The onboard audio device is still greyed out :( On 16 November 2015 at 13:36, Joshua Hesketh wrote: > Hey, > > Not sure if it helps, but I find the pulseaudio volume control > (pavucontrol) to have more options which allows me to set the ports for > various devices. > > Cheers, > Josh > From mail at elliott-brennan.id.au Mon Nov 16 22:08:15 2015 From: mail at elliott-brennan.id.au (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:08:15 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound Message-ID: Hi all again. First, thanks Josh for your suggestion. Sridhar suggested checking dmesg, which I found: [ 4.054115] snd_hda_intel 0000:01:00.1: Handle VGA-switcheroo audio client [ 4.054117] snd_hda_intel 0000:01:00.1: Force to non-snoop mode Then looking in syslog I found: Nov 16 20:41:04 patrick-desktop kernel: [ 4.109628] snd_hda_intel 0000:00:1f.3: failed to add i915_bpo component master (-19) So, doing a Google I found: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2293912 Which lead to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/UpgradingAlsa/DKMS Which suggested: sudo apt-get install dkms followed by a visit to: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/alsa-daily/+packages Which is by the Ubuntu Audio Development Team Packages in ?ALSA daily build snapshots? Downloading oem-audio-hda-daily-lts-vivid-dkms - 0.201509251531~ubuntu14.04.1.deb I then installed the .deb and rebooted Et voil?! Sound out of the onboard audio. Nice. Had to fiddle around with the PulseAudio settings and master controls to make everything use the onboard audio but there we are. Thought I'd post this in case anyone else experienced the same problem :) Regards, Patrick From mattcen at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 11:02:57 2015 From: mattcen at gmail.com (Matthew Cengia) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:02:57 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux.conf.au 2016 Open Knowledge Miniconf: Call for Papers Message-ID: <20151117000254.GA19669@owen.cengia.id.au> First Open Knowledge Australia Miniconf! ======================================== 2016 is the first time the Open Knowledge Australia Miniconf has been held at linux.conf.au. Its ongoing viability will be dependent upon its success this year - so it's a great reason to be part of the Miniconf. Submissions ----------- Please include the following information: * A working title * A brief abstract which specifies the area of open knowledge that you'd like to present on * Your preferred presentation format Submissions should be emailed to me, Matthew Cengia, via mattcen at gmail.com Dates and deadlines ------------------- The Call for Papers will close at 23:59 on Sunday 13 December 2015, and you will hear by 1 January 2016 whether or not your talk is accepted. Restrictions ------------ In order to present you must be a deletgate of LCA2016, or have a Miniconf day ticket. If cost is an issue for you, I have a very limited number of free Miniconf day tickets available. Presentation formats -------------------- This year, presenters have the following options: * A 20 minute presentation with 5 minutes for questions * A 45 minute presentation with 5 minutes for questions * 5 minute lightning talks Possible Topics --------------- Open Knowledge is a wide and varied topic. We are looking for presentations that demonstrate or promote open technologies and methods. Open software is a key area of interest, especially software that in itself promotes openness, such as CKAN, an open source platform that acts as a portal to open data. Other examples might include the OpenStreetMap software, which promotes crowd-sourced and open-licence mapping, and Authorea, which promotes open journals and research. We recognise that software is not the only tool for promoting openness, and we are also very keen to include talks on the values of open hardware, maker spaces, open government and open communities. New and emerging Speakers encouraged ------------------------------------ Open Knowledge Miniconf actively encourages new and emerging Speakers to submit a presentation. It's great experience, and great professional development. -- Regards, Matthew Cengia -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 966 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From josh at nitrotech.org Tue Nov 17 16:27:10 2015 From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:27:10 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Disabling HDMI sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564ABAAE.60603@nitrotech.org> Hey Patrick, Glad you got it working! :-) Cheers, Josh On 16/11/15 22:08, Patrick Elliott-Brennan wrote: > Hi all again. > > First, thanks Josh for your suggestion. > > Sridhar suggested checking dmesg, which I found: > > [ 4.054115] snd_hda_intel 0000:01:00.1: Handle VGA-switcheroo audio client > [ 4.054117] snd_hda_intel 0000:01:00.1: Force to non-snoop mode > > Then looking in syslog I found: > > Nov 16 20:41:04 patrick-desktop kernel: [ 4.109628] snd_hda_intel > 0000:00:1f.3: failed to add i915_bpo component master (-19) > > So, doing a Google > > I found: > > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2293912 > > > Which lead to: > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/UpgradingAlsa/DKMS > > Which suggested: > > sudo apt-get install dkms > > followed by a visit to: > > https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/alsa-daily/+packages > > > Which is by the Ubuntu Audio Development Team > > Packages in ?ALSA daily build snapshots? > > Downloading > oem-audio-hda-daily-lts-vivid-dkms - 0.201509251531~ubuntu14.04.1.deb > > I then installed the .deb and rebooted > > Et voil?! > > Sound out of the onboard audio. > > Nice. > > Had to fiddle around with the PulseAudio settings and master controls > to make everything use the onboard audio but there we are. > > Thought I'd post this in case anyone else experienced the same problem :) > > Regards, > > Patrick > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From president at linux.org.au Tue Nov 17 17:12:53 2015 From: president at linux.org.au (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:12:53 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party In-Reply-To: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> References: <421840100.13422.1447037616447.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Message-ID: <564AC565.3090007@linux.org.au> Hello Donna, MOTION by JOSHUA HESKETH that Linux Australia approves the grant request from DONNA BENJAMIN to the value of $1,000 to support the release party for Drupal 8. The Council recognises Drupal as an important part of the open source community and congratulates them on reaching this release milestone. SECONDED by SAE RA GERMAINE PASSED unanimously. Congratulations once again and have a great release! Regards, LA Council On 09/11/15 13:53, Donna Benjamin wrote: > Date: 9 November 2015 > > Project Name: Drupal 8 Release Party > > Aim of Project: Celebrate the launch of Drupal 8 > > Person Responsible for Request: Donna Benjamin > > Request: Dear Council and LA Community, > > I would like to request we use some of the operating surplus from DrupalSouth in Melbourne this year to cover venue hire and catering for a Melbourne Drupal 8 launch party. > > This has become something of a tradition in the Drupal community - there were launch parties all over the world in 2011 when Drupal 7 was released. > > Drupal 8 is due for release on November 19th. We are organising a party in Melbourne on the 20th. This also co-incides with Global Training Day. > > We're planning a party for 40-80 people, and would like to provide substantial nibbles and celebratory cupcakes. The venue requires us to commit to a minimum spend of $1000. I will also be seeking sponsorship from companies in the Drupal community. However, the Melbourne community are already organising a DrupalCamp for the following weekend, and I am conscious that many of the Usual Suspects have already committed support for that event, and I don't want to exhaust their goodwill. > > I ask Linux Australia to contribute $1000 - which ensures we meet the venue's minimum spend requirements, and that the volunteers organising this event will not be out of pocket if we can't raise funds from sponsors. > > I will be making some opening remarks at the party, and would mention Linux Australia's role in supporting not only the Drupal community, but all open source communities Australia. Promote the upcoming linux.conf.au in Geelong, shower LA in twitter kudos, and put the Linux Australia logo on our event website, which should be ready in a day or so. > > I realise there is less than the required 2 weeks until the event, so I also request the community provides their feedback quickly so council is able to make a timely decision, as I will need to work to find alternative funds to cover these costs. > > Thank you for considering this grant request. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From donna at kattekrab.net Tue Nov 17 17:47:38 2015 From: donna at kattekrab.net (Donna Benjamin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:47:38 +1100 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party In-Reply-To: <564AC565.3090007@linux.org.au> Message-ID: <763251801.31282.1447742858417.JavaMail.root@kattekrab.net> Wonderful news! Thank you council, and thank you to all of you who spoke in support of the grant request. Not many people realise that Drupal is one of the world's largest independent open source projects. More than 3,300 have contributed directly towards the code and documentation for Drupal 8 and many more have supported them. Thanks again. There are parties happening all around Australia, so find the one nearest you, RSVP and pop in! https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au for melbourne https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/adelaide https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/perth https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/darwin https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/brisbane https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/goldcoast https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/sydney And for our kiwi cuz there's also https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/auckland https://celebr8d8.drupal.org.au/wellington ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Hesketh" To: "Donna Benjamin" , "Linux Australia" Sent: Tuesday, 17 November, 2015 5:12:53 PM Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant request: Venue hire and catering for Drupal8 Launch party Hello Donna, MOTION by JOSHUA HESKETH that Linux Australia approves the grant request from DONNA BENJAMIN to the value of $1,000 to support the release party for Drupal 8. The Council recognises Drupal as an important part of the open source community and congratulates them on reaching this release milestone. SECONDED by SAE RA GERMAINE PASSED unanimously. Congratulations once again and have a great release! Regards, LA Council On 09/11/15 13:53, Donna Benjamin wrote: > Date: 9 November 2015 > > Project Name: Drupal 8 Release Party > > Aim of Project: Celebrate the launch of Drupal 8 > > Person Responsible for Request: Donna Benjamin > > Request: Dear Council and LA Community, > > I would like to request we use some of the operating surplus from DrupalSouth in Melbourne this year to cover venue hire and catering for a Melbourne Drupal 8 launch party. > > This has become something of a tradition in the Drupal community - there were launch parties all over the world in 2011 when Drupal 7 was released. > > Drupal 8 is due for release on November 19th. We are organising a party in Melbourne on the 20th. This also co-incides with Global Training Day. > > We're planning a party for 40-80 people, and would like to provide substantial nibbles and celebratory cupcakes. The venue requires us to commit to a minimum spend of $1000. I will also be seeking sponsorship from companies in the Drupal community. However, the Melbourne community are already organising a DrupalCamp for the following weekend, and I am conscious that many of the Usual Suspects have already committed support for that event, and I don't want to exhaust their goodwill. > > I ask Linux Australia to contribute $1000 - which ensures we meet the venue's minimum spend requirements, and that the volunteers organising this event will not be out of pocket if we can't raise funds from sponsors. > > I will be making some opening remarks at the party, and would mention Linux Australia's role in supporting not only the Drupal community, but all open source communities Australia. Promote the upcoming linux.conf.au in Geelong, shower LA in twitter kudos, and put the Linux Australia logo on our event website, which should be ready in a day or so. > > I realise there is less than the required 2 weeks until the event, so I also request the community provides their feedback quickly so council is able to make a timely decision, as I will need to work to find alternative funds to cover these costs. > > Thank you for considering this grant request. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From kirpit at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 19:58:39 2015 From: kirpit at gmail.com (Roy E.) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:58:39 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise Message-ID: Hi folks, I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for choosing a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. It was either incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware malfunctions, anyway it is going back. I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current technologies / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with Fedora. I am kind of a localhost person who runs everything in-box, so most likely I am gonna replace harddisk with SSD if it doesn't come with one. No budget limit. Even though performance comes before its weight for me, reddit people suggest Carbox X1 3rd gen that is less than 1.5 kg.. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3dsb4p/lenovo_carbon_x1_3rd_gen_quick_review/ Thank you in advance, Roy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 21:46:27 2015 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:46:27 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It think it really depends on your goals. For me, the mac hardware usually wins on screen, form-factor, build quality and weight. Performance is not really a concern for me any more -- the laptop is either 100% fine (99% of what I do) or hopelessly outclassed (machine learning on a GPU). I think even if it's not your favourite option necessarily, the option of a Mac is the benchmark -- the one to beat. What else are you getting for your money with another option? On 19 November 2015 at 19:58, Roy E. wrote: > Hi folks, > > I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for choosing > a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. It was either > incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware malfunctions, anyway it is > going back. > > I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current > technologies / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with > Fedora. I am kind of a localhost person who runs everything in-box, so most > likely I am gonna replace harddisk with SSD if it doesn't come with one. No > budget limit. > > Even though performance comes before its weight for me, reddit people > suggest Carbox X1 3rd gen that is less than 1.5 kg.. > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3dsb4p/lenovo_carbon_x1_3rd_gen_quick_review/ > > > Thank you in advance, > Roy. > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > -- -------------------------------------------------- Tennessee Leeuwenburg http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ "Don't believe everything you think" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micbert75 at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 22:39:00 2015 From: micbert75 at gmail.com (Michele Bert) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:39:00 +0100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2015-11-19 11:46 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg : > I think even if it's not your favourite option necessarily, the option of > a Mac is the benchmark -- the one to beat What about Linux though? A colleague of mine bought a MacBook few months ago, planning to use linux in a virtualbox hosted machine for most of the purpose, relying on the native OSX only to run a couple of applications for which a valid replace cannot be found yet. But he is very unsatisfied, since he complains the performance he get under linux are not sufficient for any daily usage. And installing linux on a new MacBook is not an advice I would give at all! -- Mick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell-humbug at stuart.id.au Thu Nov 19 23:11:05 2015 From: russell-humbug at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:11:05 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1447935065.2852.34.camel@stuart.id.au> On Thu, 2015-11-19 at 21:46 +1100, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > What else are you getting for your money with another option? He did say he wanted to run an open source operating system - Fedora. Dell sells "developer edition" laptops. Currently this means they ship with Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, so Fedora should be just fine. However, Dell has recently refreshed all their lines with Skylake CPU's, USB-C and so on. None of the developer models have been announced for the new versions yet, but it appears they mostly work: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2301071&p=13382949#post13382949 If money is no object you want the Precision version - but you really have to not care about money. You are also currently on your own with Linux, but since they are targeting engineers they normally work pretty well. They have svelte versions, and things that can be speced up to absurd proportions - Xeon, 64Gb of memory, 1TB SSD, 8Gb graphics card - a 240W power pack to drive it all. They claim the CPU cooling is so good it will never leave turbo. Dell's warranty support is simply amazing. Next Business Day onsite is really what happens. My Boss had a bad run with one (happens with every brand), and after the 3rd visit Dell rang to apologise and then offered to swap it out for any model of his choice, at their expense. If you get the developer version they support the Linux it comes with in the same way. From lists at fukawi2.nl Fri Nov 20 08:40:39 2015 From: lists at fukawi2.nl (Phillip Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:40:39 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 November 2015 at 19:58, Roy E. wrote: > Hi folks, > > I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for choosing > a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. It was either > incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware malfunctions, anyway it is > going back. > ?Have you considered System76? They do ship to Australia, and there's a little penalty in exchange rates etc but you'll get a Linux tested and *supported* laptop in return.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:29:26 2015 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:29:26 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I understand you can run Linux raw on the hardware. I use VirtualBox and have not the slightest issue, but I understand my usage patterns may not match the needs of others. My main performance indicator is how well my text editor works when I'm coding :). More and more, I find I can do my Linux stuff directly on OSX without needing to reach out to Linux. I'm happy to give more feedback on my experience, but I really couldn't be happier. On 19 November 2015 at 22:39, Michele Bert wrote: > > 2015-11-19 11:46 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg : > >> I think even if it's not your favourite option necessarily, the option of >> a Mac is the benchmark -- the one to beat > > > What about Linux though? > A colleague of mine bought a MacBook few months ago, planning to use linux > in a virtualbox hosted machine for most of the purpose, relying on the > native OSX only to run a couple of applications for which a valid replace > cannot be found yet. But he is very unsatisfied, since he complains the > performance he get under linux are not sufficient for any daily usage. > And installing linux on a new MacBook is not an advice I would give at all! > > -- > Mick > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > -- -------------------------------------------------- Tennessee Leeuwenburg http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ "Don't believe everything you think" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael at hybr.id.au Fri Nov 20 11:54:12 2015 From: michael at hybr.id.au (Michael Van Delft) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:54:12 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If budget is not an issue I've always though the Purism laptops look pretty nice but I haven't had a chance to play with one (they are out of my price range) https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism On 20 November 2015 at 05:40, Phillip Smith wrote: > On 19 November 2015 at 19:58, Roy E. wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for choosing >> a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. It was either >> incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware malfunctions, anyway it is >> going back. > > > Have you considered System76? They do ship to Australia, and there's a > little penalty in exchange rates etc but you'll get a Linux tested and > *supported* laptop in return. > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > From ben at dechrai.com Fri Nov 20 12:05:45 2015 From: ben at dechrai.com (Ben Dechrai) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:05:45 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564E71E9.2040602@dechrai.com> I'm currently running Debian Jessie on a 2010 MacBook Pro, and it runs like a dream. I don't run any proprietary software[0] and don't have issues with any hardware any more[1]. I can't talk for more recent hardware, but I feel confident saying the compatibility of GNU/Linux distros on Apple hardware is improving vastly. The only thing I'd like now is better power management. I understand Macs running OS-X have excellent battery times due to Apple being able to optimisation for a finite set of supported hardware, whereas other OSs have a near infinite number of hardware variations they need to cater for. B [0] I run Windows under VirtualBox in order to appease some of my clients. [1] If you use external VGA displays often, you'll run in to EDID issues with the Nouveau drivers due to the fact that most projectors are not VESA compliant. Rather than install nVidia's proprietary drivers, I bought a $25 HDMI to VGA converter, placing the VGA conversion and communication load on the proprietary software in the dongle, and not my laptop. On 20/11/15 11:29, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > I understand you can run Linux raw on the hardware. I use VirtualBox > and have not the slightest issue, but I understand my usage patterns > may not match the needs of others. My main performance indicator is > how well my text editor works when I'm coding :). > > More and more, I find I can do my Linux stuff directly on OSX without > needing to reach out to Linux. > > I'm happy to give more feedback on my experience, but I really > couldn't be happier. > > > > On 19 November 2015 at 22:39, Michele Bert > wrote: > > > 2015-11-19 11:46 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg > >: > > I think even if it's not your favourite option necessarily, > the option of a Mac is the benchmark -- the one to beat > > > What about Linux though? > A colleague of mine bought a MacBook few months ago, planning to > use linux in a virtualbox hosted machine for most of the purpose, > relying on the native OSX only to run a couple of applications for > which a valid replace cannot be found yet. But he is very > unsatisfied, since he complains the performance he get under linux > are not sufficient for any daily usage. > And installing linux on a new MacBook is not an advice I would > give at all! > > -- > Mick > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > > -- > -------------------------------------------------- > Tennessee Leeuwenburg > http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ > "Don't believe everything you think" > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lists at ebourne.me.uk Fri Nov 20 15:43:04 2015 From: lists at ebourne.me.uk (lists at ebourne.me.uk) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:43:04 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1447994584.14587.4@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> As a fellow Fedora user I would recommend HP. I've been through many manufacturers of laptops over the years but HP is the only one that has never given me any trouble. I have two workstation spec laptops, one from about 8 years ago (8510w) and one from about 2-3 years ago (Pavilion dv6). Both laptops have only ever run Fedora from day 1 and both have been upgraded through the versions to the current. Everything works on both laptops, even the fingerprint sensors and all ports - all out of the box with no proprietary or extra drivers. As far as I can remember the only thing that doesn't work is the screen brightness control on the dv6, although I have never needed it anyway. Both have been ultra reliable - nothing has broken at all on either laptop despite very heavy use (60hrs/week) and regular carrying around. Both have been dropped and survived with nothing more than surface damage. I've had to replace the battery on each a few times, obviously. I can't advise you on the current HP lineup, but I know where I'll be looking when I come to replace either of them. The usual due diligence on which model uses Linux compatible parts is needed, but I've been super happy with them both. Cheers, Martin On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Roy E. wrote: > Hi folks, > > I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for > choosing a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. > It was either incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware > malfunctions, anyway it is going back. > > I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current > technologies / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with > Fedora. I am kind of a localhost person who runs everything in-box, > so most likely I am gonna replace harddisk with SSD if it doesn't > come with one. No budget limit. > > Even though performance comes before its weight for me, reddit people > suggest Carbox X1 3rd gen that is less than 1.5 kg.. > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3dsb4p/lenovo_carbon_x1_3rd_gen_quick_review/ > > > Thank you in advance, > Roy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From A.Thyssen at griffith.edu.au Fri Nov 20 18:24:41 2015 From: A.Thyssen at griffith.edu.au (Anthony Thyssen) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:24:41 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: <1447994584.14587.4@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> References: <1447994584.14587.4@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> Message-ID: <20151120172441.08f1e0bf@chimera.itc.griffith.edu.au> I can say the same thing for all DELL laptops I have every owned! And I have gone though a lot of them! Anthony Thyssen ( System Programmer ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A file is private because the person who created it says so. If anyone else were to decide, they would have to look at it, and then it woundn't be private, would it? -- John Barnes, "Orbital Resonance" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony's Castle http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/anthony/ On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:43:04 +1000, lists at ebourne.me.uk wrote : As a fellow Fedora user I would recommend HP. I've been through many manufacturers of laptops over the years but HP is the only one that has never given me any trouble. I have two workstation spec laptops, one from about 8 years ago (8510w) and one from about 2-3 years ago (Pavilion dv6). Both laptops have only ever run Fedora from day 1 and both have been upgraded through the versions to the current. Everything works on both laptops, even the fingerprint sensors and all ports - all out of the box with no proprietary or extra drivers. As far as I can remember the only thing that doesn't work is the screen brightness control on the dv6, although I have never needed it anyway. Both have been ultra reliable - nothing has broken at all on either laptop despite very heavy use (60hrs/week) and regular carrying around. Both have been dropped and survived with nothing more than surface damage. I've had to replace the battery on each a few times, obviously. I can't advise you on the current HP lineup, but I know where I'll be looking when I come to replace either of them. The usual due diligence on which model uses Linux compatible parts is needed, but I've been super happy with them both. Cheers, Martin On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Roy E. wrote: > Hi folks, > > I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for > choosing a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. > It was either incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware > malfunctions, anyway it is going back. > > I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current > technologies / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with > Fedora. I am kind of a localhost person who runs everything in-box, > so most likely I am gonna replace harddisk with SSD if it doesn't > come with one. No budget limit. > > Even though performance comes before its weight for me, reddit people > suggest Carbox X1 3rd gen that is less than 1.5 kg.. > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3dsb4p/lenovo_carbon_x1_3rd_gen_quick_review/ > > > Thank you in advance, > Roy. From lists at ebourne.me.uk Fri Nov 20 20:26:46 2015 From: lists at ebourne.me.uk (lists at ebourne.me.uk) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:26:46 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: <20151120172441.08f1e0bf@chimera.itc.griffith.edu.au> References: <1447994584.14587.4@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> <20151120172441.08f1e0bf@chimera.itc.griffith.edu.au> Message-ID: <1448011606.14587.6@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> You have had better luck than me then! I have had 2 Dell laptops, one I bought which failed after 13 months, just 1 month out of warranty, and one at a company I worked for which lasted longer but if I remember correctly Bluetooth stopped working after about 18 months. Both ran Fedora of course, but I had to swap the wireless card out of my one as the factory card was not supported without binary drivers, that was quite a long time ago though. Both of the HP laptops came with a 36 month warranty as standard, which is a lot better than 12 months cover and failing hardware a month later. Of course I may well have been unlucky, YMMV. Cheers, Martin On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Anthony Thyssen wrote: > > I can say the same thing for all DELL laptops I have every owned! > And I have gone though a lot of them! > > Anthony Thyssen ( System Programmer ) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A file is private because the person who created it says so. > If anyone else were to decide, they would have to look at it, and > then > it woundn't be private, would it? -- John Barnes, "Orbital > Resonance" > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Anthony's Castle http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/anthony/ > > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:43:04 +1000, > lists at ebourne.me.uk wrote : > > As a fellow Fedora user I would recommend HP. > > I've been through many manufacturers of laptops over the years but HP > is the only one that has never given me any trouble. > > I have two workstation spec laptops, one from about 8 years ago > (8510w) > and one from about 2-3 years ago (Pavilion dv6). Both laptops have > only > ever run Fedora from day 1 and both have been upgraded through the > versions to the current. Everything works on both laptops, even the > fingerprint sensors and all ports - all out of the box with no > proprietary or extra drivers. As far as I can remember the only thing > that doesn't work is the screen brightness control on the dv6, > although > I have never needed it anyway. > > Both have been ultra reliable - nothing has broken at all on either > laptop despite very heavy use (60hrs/week) and regular carrying > around. > Both have been dropped and survived with nothing more than surface > damage. I've had to replace the battery on each a few times, > obviously. > > I can't advise you on the current HP lineup, but I know where I'll be > looking when I come to replace either of them. The usual due diligence > on which model uses Linux compatible parts is needed, but I've been > super happy with them both. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Roy E. wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for >> choosing a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. >> It was either incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware >> malfunctions, anyway it is going back. >> >> I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current >> technologies / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with >> Fedora. I am kind of a localhost person who runs everything in-box, >> so most likely I am gonna replace harddisk with SSD if it doesn't >> come with one. No budget limit. >> >> Even though performance comes before its weight for me, reddit >> people >> suggest Carbox X1 3rd gen that is less than 1.5 kg.. >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3dsb4p/lenovo_carbon_x1_3rd_gen_quick_review/ >> >> >> Thank you in advance, >> Roy. > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micbert75 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 22:23:20 2015 From: micbert75 at gmail.com (Michele Bert) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:23:20 +0100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux on MacBook vs OSX used as Linux Message-ID: 2015-11-20 1:29 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg : > More and more, I find I can do my Linux stuff directly on OSX without > needing to reach out to Linux. > I'm happy to give more feedback on my experience, but I really couldn't be > happier. > 2015-11-20 2:05 GMT+01:00 Ben Dechrai : > I'm currently running Debian Jessie on a 2010 MacBook Pro, and it runs > like a dream. I don't run any proprietary software[0] and don't have issues > with any hardware any more[1]. I'm actually interested in the experience of both of you. I have a end-2009 MacBook Pro 13, running Snow Leopard, and until a month ago I have been using it like Tennessee, through MacPort. Recently I replaced the hard-disk, restoring the content from my backup, and since than the compiler does not work anymore (it's not in the path, and it always fails to run, even if called by XCode - also restored by the backup). I cannot install the new XCode unless I update the operative system to a recent version. So now I'm not sure about what to do, whether to update my OSX or to install an Ubuntu flavored distribution. -- Mick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Fri Nov 20 23:12:25 2015 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:12:25 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: <1448011606.14587.6@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> References: <1447994584.14587.4@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> <20151120172441.08f1e0bf@chimera.itc.griffith.edu.au> <1448011606.14587.6@panicin.ebourne.me.uk> Message-ID: <1448021545.2921.23.camel@stuart.id.au> On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 19:26 +1000, lists at ebourne.me.uk wrote: > Both of the HP laptops came with a 36 month warranty as standard,which > is a lot better than 12 months cover and failing hardware a month > later. Maybe I have a long memory, but around 2012 that 36 month warranty would not have done you much good: https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/hp-to-pay-3-million-for-misleading-consumers-and-retailers To be fair corporate attitudes have probably changed, but like I said I have a long memory. Maybe too long. I also remember the time Dell was plagued by capacitor failures in 2000 or so. We had boxes around the country, and every single one failed. And every single one was fixed by Dell, on site within 48hours, no questions asked. I recall news reports about the strain on Dell's finances at the time. From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Sat Nov 21 00:12:27 2015 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:12:27 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: <564E71E9.2040602@dechrai.com> References: <564E71E9.2040602@dechrai.com> Message-ID: <1448025147.2921.63.camel@stuart.id.au> On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 12:05 +1100, Ben Dechrai wrote: > I'm currently running Debian Jessie on a 2010 MacBook Pro, and it runs > like a dream. I don't run any proprietary software[0] and don't have > issues with any hardware any more[1]. Something funny happened with the planets a few years ago, and for a time Apple sold their usual no expenses spared hardware cheaper than the Windows box shifters. In fact it was worse than that. They included a proprietary device they called a gmux which switched between the onchip Intel GPU and the Nvidia chip seamlessly, thus increasing battery life to double what anyone else could achieve. It was a hugely frustrating time because it was near impossible to run Linux on that hardware. Yes as you demonstrate, open source hackers have after countless hours of reverse engineering have got Linux to run on it - countless hours because Apple offered no help whatsoever. We had one of those laptop's brought into Humbug one day. The owner wanted it to get the same battery life under Linux as it did under OSX. We rapidly figured out we had to program the gmux and found I/O ports on the 'net and sequences to write to them. The emphasis being on the trailing s in sequences. Apparently Apple had changed their hardware several times. So despite humbug meetings lasting for 9 hours, over a century of Linux experience and 2 people who had worked on the kernel in the room, we got everything working but the display working when the Intel GPU was being used. We claimed victory, of course, as we delivered what he asked for - battery life as good as iOS. And to fair he hadn't mentioned being able to read the screen, and we demonstrated it was functioning as it should even though he could not see it. Sadly he didn't come back, so the story ends there. Time has moved on and now man + dog sells laptops that matches Apple offerings in capabilities (battery life included) at similar prices. One notable difference is where Apple is at best agnostic to LA's reason for being, these other vendors not only support Linux, they sponsor LA's conferences. From dave.gillies at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 22:51:05 2015 From: dave.gillies at gmail.com (David Gillies) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:51:05 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ironically for my work laptop recently I just moved from a Macbook Pro to a Thinkpad T450S and have found the Linux experience on it fantastic. The only problem I've had so far is that the DisplayPort port on the docking station for it can't drive my 4K monitor at full resolution, which isn't too big a deal as the mini DisplayPort connector on the side of the laptop works fine. On 19 November 2015 at 22:39, Michele Bert wrote: > > 2015-11-19 11:46 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg : > >> I think even if it's not your favourite option necessarily, the option of >> a Mac is the benchmark -- the one to beat > > > What about Linux though? > A colleague of mine bought a MacBook few months ago, planning to use linux > in a virtualbox hosted machine for most of the purpose, relying on the > native OSX only to run a couple of applications for which a valid replace > cannot be found yet. But he is very unsatisfied, since he complains the > performance he get under linux are not sufficient for any daily usage. > And installing linux on a new MacBook is not an advice I would give at all! > > -- > Mick > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elliottbrennan at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 00:40:52 2015 From: elliottbrennan at gmail.com (Patrick Elliott-Brennan) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:40:52 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise Message-ID: Hi Roy. We have a first gen X1 carbon. Works like a dream with Kubuntu 1404. Everything is 5 by 5 out of the box. I'm a bit concerned about your experience with the T450. We've just bought one. The only negative I'd read about before was the wireless adapter needed attention. It arrives in a few days. That said, our X1 is a great machine. Regards, Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 11:47:01 2015 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 11:47:01 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux on MacBook vs OSX used as Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just update the OS as soon as it comes out. I've done that through two OSX updates. The macports integration is often as hassle, so if you were to follow that strategy, wait about 2 weeks. The OSX side of the upgrades as always been largely flawless. However, you then need to follow-on with xcode and macports upgrades, which are often more work to achieve. The ports that are already installed have always continuted to work for me, but if I need to install or upgrade anything, you'll need to go through the upgrade/reinstall dance for xcode + macports. I have actually been backing away from installing so much through macports, and using OSX installers for many packages. I also use anaconda now for Python instead of macports, and that has been working very well for me. I don't see any particular reason to avoid updating OSX other than not doing it too frequently to minimise hassle. The current latest OSX works very well for me. On 20 November 2015 at 22:23, Michele Bert wrote: > 2015-11-20 1:29 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg : > >> More and more, I find I can do my Linux stuff directly on OSX without >> needing to reach out to Linux. >> I'm happy to give more feedback on my experience, but I really couldn't >> be happier. >> > > 2015-11-20 2:05 GMT+01:00 Ben Dechrai : > >> I'm currently running Debian Jessie on a 2010 MacBook Pro, and it runs >> like a dream. I don't run any proprietary software[0] and don't have issues >> with any hardware any more[1]. > > > I'm actually interested in the experience of both of you. > I have a end-2009 MacBook Pro 13, running Snow Leopard, and until a month > ago I have been using it like Tennessee, through MacPort. > Recently I replaced the hard-disk, restoring the content from my backup, > and since than the compiler does not work anymore (it's not in the path, > and it always fails to run, even if called by XCode - also restored by the > backup). I cannot install the new XCode unless I update the operative > system to a recent version. > So now I'm not sure about what to do, whether to update my OSX or to > install an Ubuntu flavored distribution. > > -- > Mick > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > -- -------------------------------------------------- Tennessee Leeuwenburg http://myownhat.blogspot.com/ "Don't believe everything you think" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From president at linux.org.au Sun Nov 22 13:43:36 2015 From: president at linux.org.au (Joshua Hesketh) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 13:43:36 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia archived wiki data leak Message-ID: <56512BD8.2020500@linux.org.au> Dear Linux Australia Members, It is with regret that we write to inform you of a data leak from one of Linux Australia's servers. The incident has resulted in the release of a limited amount of personal information and this communication provides full disclosure of the nature of the leak and the actions undertaken by Linux Australia. We wish to be very clear from the outset that only a very small number of individuals have been affected by this in any way (See below). However, in accordance with our values of transparency and openness, we believe it is correct to share this with the wider community as a matter of best practice. Am I affected (tl;dr)? ====================== This data leak impacted Linux Australia's legacy wiki system, which was only used by a small number of current and non-current members (Approx 0.5%). We are contacting these members individually with specific details. If you are not contacted separately by a member of the Linux Australia Council regarding this data leak, you will not have had an account (or other info) on the archived wiki and the data leak will not affect you. Further Details: ================ In line with guidelines provided by the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner, specific information regarding the data leak, and the data which may have been disclosed, is outlined below. Whilst the nature of this leak is small and the majority of our members are not impacted, the Linux Australia council believe that making these issues public is the correct approach. Security is a continual journey and when issues are discovered, we believe transparency is critical in maintaining the trust of our membership. We encourage all organisations to be open and transparent when faced with similar incidents, no matter how trivial they may seem. What was the nature of the leak and how did the leak occur? ----------------------------------------------------------- The council maintained a wiki which contained both public and private information - pages such as conference HowTo's, council minutes and (limited) contact details. Some years ago (around 2011) the council moved to a new mediawiki system and archived the existing wiki on a separate site for historical reference. Within the last 6-12 months the archived wiki deployment was misconfigured and apache directory listings was enabled. Due to the nature of the wiki system used, this exposed all of the wiki data, both pages and system information. What type of personal information was disclosed? ------------------------------------------------ The council have meticulously combed through all data contained in the website in order to determine exactly what was made available. At a high level, all of the archived wiki data was exposed including, but not limited to: - All wiki pages, including protected ones. These were examined individually for potentially sensitive data. - Account information including email addresses and hashed passwords. Please note that the accounts are NOT the user IDs and passwords for the Linux Australia membership system or associated Conference/Event sites (eg linux.conf.au or PyConAU). This is limited only to those people who had logons to the wiki. How was the leak identified, investigated and validated? -------------------------------------------------------- The council was alerted to the data leak by a community member. Since the wiki was unused it went unnoticed for a period of time. Once alerted the admin-team and council immediately took the website offline. This removed access to the exposed data. From there an inspection of the data took place. What are the implications of the data leak and what should I do? ---------------------------------------------------------------- If you had an account on the wiki, your email address and hashed password may have been exposed. These accounts however were only created by a limited number of Linux Australia members and we are reaching out individually to people who are affected by this. If you are not contacted separately by us and don't specifically recall creating a wiki account, it is highly unlikely that you are impacted. How did Linux Australia respond to the leak? -------------------------------------------- The Admin Team immediately removed the website, including contents. Once the website was removed, the Council examined the data to identify each page of the archived wiki that may be deemed sensitive or reveal personal information. Was this related to the earlier linux.conf.au breach? ----------------------------------------------------- No. The events are entirely unrelated. Unfortunately this has been a tough and busy year for the council and admin-team. The archived wiki leak is partially the result of limited human resources we have helping maintain both the systems and content of our websites and services. If you would like to help out, please contact us (see below). What steps were taken to prevent the threat of a similar leak in the future? ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Linux Australia Council invites members to assist with the upkeep/maintenance of our webpages and the current wiki. We are a volunteer organisation and many hands do make for light work. The Linux Australia Council and Admin Team are currently reviewing or have completed the following: - Moved sensitive information into a secure password database. - Identified and started the shutdown of unused services such as our current wiki. - A review of our current websites is underway with the view to update, upgrade and/or deprecate unused features. - The identified exposed data has been taken offline - A Motion by JOSHUA HESKETH was passed unanimously during the Council Face-to-face meeting: "At least once per year the council will review all websites that contain sensitive information including how the data is being stored and secured. Following this, a determination will be made around whether the current methodology is still adequate or if processes need to be improved. All information that is no longer required will be deleted or moved into an offline archive." Who should I contact for more information? ------------------------------------------ Thank you for your patience, understanding and support. If you have any questions, concerns or wish to express interest in assisting us with the maintenance of our services, please do not hesitate to contact the Linux Australia Council at council at linux.org.au or if you would like speak in camera please contact the Secretary at secretary at linux.org.au [0]. Signed, The Linux Australia Council --- [0] Please note that this is an archived email address but steps will be taken to protect your privacy. From paulway at mabula.net Sun Nov 22 18:09:22 2015 From: paulway at mabula.net (Paul Wayper) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:09:22 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56516A22.1080406@mabula.net> On 19/11/15 19:58, Roy E. wrote: > Hi folks, > > I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for choosing a > linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. It was either > incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware malfunctions, anyway it is > going back. > > I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current technologies > / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with Fedora. I am kind of a > localhost person who runs everything in-box, so most likely I am gonna replace > harddisk with SSD if it doesn't come with one. No budget limit. I'm eyeing off the current range from System76: https://system76.com/laptops They're all using the new Sky Lake architecture, which gives more compute power in the same package. The Oryx and Serval laptops can go up to 64GB of memory(!), and can take two hard disks and two m.SATA drives. And AFAICS they're very reasonably priced. Of course, you get Ubuntu with it, but you can easily remove that and put Fedora instead :-) ZaReason also has a good range of laptops: http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/ They're a bit older but they're still quite good. I like the fact that their AC adapters are quite standard, they can give you the 'super' key as either Tux or Ubuntu logos, and they can install Fedora as standard. Have fun, Paul From kirpit at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 22:40:51 2015 From: kirpit at gmail.com (Roy E.) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:40:51 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Laptop advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd like to thank each one of you for your time and helpful emails. Honestly, i'm a little more confused and undecided because of too many options. I will skip system76 as it seems too much binded with ubuntu, thank you Phillip. Eventually I will have to decide between Dell, HP and Lenovo, which sounds like Russian rullet at the moment. And sure, I will write here back my first impressions on whatever I'll choose. Thanks again, Tennessee, Russell, Phillip, Martin and P, for your precious time and helping me out. Cheers, Roy. On Thursday, 19 November 2015, Roy E. wrote: > Hi folks, > > I know this sounds a bit cliche but I am having difficulties for choosing > a linux laptop, after an awful experience with Lenovo T450. It was either > incompatible with linux or some erratic hardware malfunctions, anyway it is > going back. > > I am really curios if anyone here is up to date with the current > technologies / bought any fast machine recently that plays well with > Fedora. I am kind of a localhost person who runs everything in-box, so most > likely I am gonna replace harddisk with SSD if it doesn't come with one. No > budget limit. > > Even though performance comes before its weight for me, reddit people > suggest Carbox X1 3rd gen that is less than 1.5 kg.. > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3dsb4p/lenovo_carbon_x1_3rd_gen_quick_review/ > > > Thank you in advance, > Roy. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micbert75 at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 18:49:49 2015 From: micbert75 at gmail.com (Michele Bert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:49:49 +0100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux on MacBook vs OSX used as Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2015-11-22 1:47 GMT+01:00 Tennessee Leeuwenburg : > I don't see any particular reason to avoid updating OSX other than not > doing it too frequently to minimise hassle. The current latest OSX works > very well for me. > Thanks for your suggestions. I tried Lion for a period, when it was released, but my 2Gb-ram machine settled down, so I get back to Snow Leopard, not without trouble. Later I upgrade it to 3Gb (why 3 are you wondering? Do you really wan o know it? I can explain, even if I would go a bit OT :-D ), but I never took the risk of trying any newer OS. I find macports usefull for a number of small tool I am used to have under linux, while I use native version for big open source suites like Gimp, NeoOffice, and of course web browser and mail client. I have never taken the time to search any music and photo catalogs, to replace iphoto and itunes, but I would like to. -- Mick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at lcabythebay.org.au Tue Nov 24 20:03:20 2015 From: info at lcabythebay.org.au (Kathy Reid - Team linux.conf.au 2016 Geelong - LCA By the Bay) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:03:20 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Conference favourite Bacon to keynote linux.conf.au 2016 Geelong - LCA By the Bay Message-ID: <565427D8.1070802@lcabythebay.org.au> Crowd favourite Bacon to headline linux.conf.au Newly-appointed Director of Community at GitHub, Jono Bacon, will be one of four outstanding keynotes for linux.conf.au in February 2016. Bacon, formerly Community Manager at Canonical - the company behind Linux distribution Ubuntu, and author of the best-selling ?The Art of Community?, will deliver insights into building strong, effective, diverse and successful technical communities. Bacon shared his enthusiasm for keynoting linux.conf.au. ?I am absolutely delighted to be joining you all in Geelong in 2016. LCA is a cornerstone in the global Linux and Open Source movement and I am not only excited about speaking but also getting to know all the attendees at the event?, Bacon says. Conference Director, David Bell, was thrilled to announce Mr Bacon as Keynote Speaker. ?Our theme for linux.conf.au 2016 is ?Life is better with Linux? - and the strength of our Linux and open source communities contribute significantly to that aspiration. Robust, diverse, and inclusive communities happen by design, not accident, and Jono has done an enormous amount to shape that. It?s truly an honour to be able to host him in Geelong in February.? One of the most respected technical conferences in Australia, Linux Conference Australia (linux.conf.au) will make Geelong home between 1st-5th February 2016. The conference is expected to attract over 500 national and international professional and hobbyist developers, technicians and innovative hardware specialists, and will feature nearly 100 Speakers and presentations over five days. Deakin University?s stunning Waterfront Campus will host the conference, leveraging state of the art networking and audio visual facilities. The conference delivers Delegates a range of presentations and tutorials on topics such as open source hardware, open source operating systems and open source software, storage, containers and related issues such as patents, copyright and technical community development. Linux is a computer operating system, in the same way that MacOS, Windows, Android and iOS are operating systems. It can be used on desktop computers, servers, and increasingly on mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets. Linux embodies the ?open source? paradigm of software development, which holds that source code ? the code that is used to give computers and mobile devices functionality ? should be ?open?. That is, the source code should be viewable, modifiable and shareable by the entire community. There are a number of benefits to the open source paradigm, including facilitating innovation, sharing and re-use. The ?open? paradigm is increasingly extending to other areas such as open government, open culture, open health and open education. Potential Delegates and Speakers are encouraged to remain up to date with conference news through one of the following channels; Website:http://lcabythebay.org.au Twitter: @linuxconfau, hashtag #lca2016 Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/lcabythebay Google+:https://www.google.com/+LcabythebayOrgAu Lanyrd:http://lanyrd.com/2016/linuxconfau/ IRC: #linux.conf.au on freenode.net Email: info at lcabythebay.org.au Announce mailing list:http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/lca-announce We warmly encourage you to forward this announcement to technical communities you may be involved in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francois at fmarier.org Sat Nov 28 16:59:38 2015 From: francois at fmarier.org (Francois Marier) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 21:59:38 -0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy Message-ID: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. Their leadership team, Karen Sandler and Bradley Kuhn [2], are members of our community and have talked at LCA several times. Their organisation represents a number of projects [3] that either originated in Australasia or have many contributors from this part of the world. In particular, they are the non-profit home of Samba and Outreachy, two projects that embody very well the values of Linux Australia. Since they are hoping to create a strong base of supporters to allow them the freedom (pun intended) to protect FOSS users and developers, it would be great to see Linux Australia become an annual supporter. The minimum monthly amount for individuals is $10 USD/month ($120 / year) but LA could certainly give more since Conservancy is putting that money to very good use. I would also encourage other LA members to consider supporting the Conservancy if they are able to. Francois [1] https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/nov/23/2015fundraiser/ [2] Who are also the hosts of the excellent Free as in Freedom "oggcast": http://faif.us/ [3] https://sfconservancy.org/members/current/ -- http://fmarier.org/ From chrisjrn at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 04:15:25 2015 From: chrisjrn at gmail.com (Christopher Neugebauer) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 09:15:25 -0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I definitely support this proposal, and would advocate that LA put in well in excess of the minimum. Conservancy is an excellent cause, and they're doing really important work on a shoestring. --Chris On 27 November 2015 at 21:59, Francois Marier wrote: > I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom > Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. > > Their leadership team, Karen Sandler and Bradley Kuhn [2], are members of our > community and have talked at LCA several times. Their organisation > represents a number of projects [3] that either originated in Australasia or > have many contributors from this part of the world. In particular, they are > the non-profit home of Samba and Outreachy, two projects that embody very > well the values of Linux Australia. > > Since they are hoping to create a strong base of supporters to allow them > the freedom (pun intended) to protect FOSS users and developers, it would be > great to see Linux Australia become an annual supporter. > > The minimum monthly amount for individuals is $10 USD/month ($120 / year) > but LA could certainly give more since Conservancy is putting that money to > very good use. > > I would also encourage other LA members to consider supporting the > Conservancy if they are able to. -- --Christopher Neugebauer Jabber: chrisjrn at gmail.com -- IRC: chrisjrn on irc.freenode.net -- WWW: http://chrisjrn.com -- Twitter: @chrisjrn From francois at fmarier.org Sun Nov 29 05:05:58 2015 From: francois at fmarier.org (Francois Marier) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:05:58 -0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20151128180558.GF4867@akranes.dyndns.org> On 2015-11-27 at 21:59:38, Francois Marier wrote: > I would also encourage other LA members to consider supporting the > Conservancy if they are able to. And just after I wrote that, I discovered that someone is matching donations for a week: https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/nov/27/black-friday/ So if you're thinking about supporting Conservancy, you can make it count twice if you do it this week :) Francois -- http://fmarier.org/ From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Sun Nov 29 17:51:58 2015 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 16:51:58 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20151129165158.5dcb78e8@korath.teln.shikadi.net> > I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom > Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. I also strongly support this. Having discussed licence compliance with Bradley on a couple of occasions where I had purchased products from companies that used Linux and were not complying with the licences (Avocent and Onkyo to name two of them), he does a fantastic job on such a small budget. Unfortunately in both these cases the companies were able to continue their licence non-compliance because neither of us had the time or resources to pursue the issues further (both companies refused to comply so legal action was the only way forward), so any additional funding for the Software Freedom Conservancy is money well spent for anyone who believes in software freedom. Cheers, Adam. From andrew at donnellan.id.au Sun Nov 29 19:55:53 2015 From: andrew at donnellan.id.au (Andrew Donnellan) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 19:55:53 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Support. SFC does very valuable work. Andrew I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. Their leadership team, Karen Sandler and Bradley Kuhn [2], are members of our community and have talked at LCA several times. Their organisation represents a number of projects [3] that either originated in Australasia or have many contributors from this part of the world. In particular, they are the non-profit home of Samba and Outreachy, two projects that embody very well the values of Linux Australia. Since they are hoping to create a strong base of supporters to allow them the freedom (pun intended) to protect FOSS users and developers, it would be great to see Linux Australia become an annual supporter. The minimum monthly amount for individuals is $10 USD/month ($120 / year) but LA could certainly give more since Conservancy is putting that money to very good use. I would also encourage other LA members to consider supporting the Conservancy if they are able to. Francois [1] https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/nov/23/2015fundraiser/ [2] Who are also the hosts of the excellent Free as in Freedom "oggcast": http://faif.us/ [3] https://sfconservancy.org/members/current/ -- http://fmarier.org/ _______________________________________________ linux-aus mailing list linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katie at glasnt.com Mon Nov 30 06:38:21 2015 From: katie at glasnt.com (Katie McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 06:38:21 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I also strongly support this proposal to financially support the Software Freedom Conservancy - Katie On 29 November 2015 at 19:55, Andrew Donnellan wrote: > Support. SFC does very valuable work. > > Andrew > I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom > Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. > > Their leadership team, Karen Sandler and Bradley Kuhn [2], are members of > our > community and have talked at LCA several times. Their organisation > represents a number of projects [3] that either originated in Australasia > or > have many contributors from this part of the world. In particular, they are > the non-profit home of Samba and Outreachy, two projects that embody very > well the values of Linux Australia. > > Since they are hoping to create a strong base of supporters to allow them > the freedom (pun intended) to protect FOSS users and developers, it would > be > great to see Linux Australia become an annual supporter. > > The minimum monthly amount for individuals is $10 USD/month ($120 / year) > but LA could certainly give more since Conservancy is putting that money to > very good use. > > I would also encourage other LA members to consider supporting the > Conservancy if they are able to. > > Francois > > [1] https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/nov/23/2015fundraiser/ > > [2] Who are also the hosts of the excellent Free as in Freedom "oggcast": > http://faif.us/ > > [3] https://sfconservancy.org/members/current/ > > -- > http://fmarier.org/ > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leon-la at cyberknights.com.au Mon Nov 30 11:00:08 2015 From: leon-la at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 08:00:08 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On 29 November 2015 at 16:55, Andrew Donnellan wrote: > Support. SFC does very valuable work. > > Andrew > I agree. > I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom > Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme.* [...]* > > Francois > -- Cheers ? Leon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Mon Nov 30 19:07:06 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 18:37:06 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <004001d12b46$1b651710$522f4530$@adam.com.au> As this seems to be an ongoing support, might I suggest that something like: ?That LinuxSA support Software Freedom Conservancy for a total of $X aud per month, to be reviewed every Y years or at such time as Linux Australia Inc. sees fit, whichever is less.?. What the value of $X or Y should be is beyond me. For what it?s worth, it seems a good cause ? however, what Linux Australia can or wants to afford I?m not sure. It seems it could afford the minimum :) From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au] On Behalf Of Leon Brooks Sent: Monday, 30 November 2015 10:30 AM To: Linux Australia Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy On 29 November 2015 at 16:55, Andrew Donnellan wrote: Support. SFC does very valuable work. Andrew I agree. I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. [...] Francois -- Cheers ? Leon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Mon Nov 30 19:07:51 2015 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 18:37:51 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <004d01d12b46$3611db20$a2359160$@adam.com.au> Linux AUSTRALIA ? not LinuxSA ? I haven?t usurped Mr Hesketh yet :P From: David Lloyd [mailto:lloy0076 at adam.com.au] Sent: Monday, 30 November 2015 6:37 PM To: 'Leon Brooks' ; 'Linux Australia' Subject: RE: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy As this seems to be an ongoing support, might I suggest that something like: ?That LinuxSA support Software Freedom Conservancy for a total of $X aud per month, to be reviewed every Y years or at such time as Linux Australia Inc. sees fit, whichever is less.?. What the value of $X or Y should be is beyond me. For what it?s worth, it seems a good cause ? however, what Linux Australia can or wants to afford I?m not sure. It seems it could afford the minimum :) From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au] On Behalf Of Leon Brooks Sent: Monday, 30 November 2015 10:30 AM To: Linux Australia > Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy On 29 November 2015 at 16:55, Andrew Donnellan wrote: Support. SFC does very valuable work. Andrew I agree. I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. [...] Francois -- Cheers ? Leon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steven.ellis at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 21:28:34 2015 From: steven.ellis at gmail.com (Steven Ellis) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 23:28:34 +1300 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Proposing that Linux Australia fund Software Freedom Conservancy In-Reply-To: References: <20151128055938.GC4867@akranes.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I also strongly support this On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Leon Brooks wrote: > > On 29 November 2015 at 16:55, Andrew Donnellan wrote: >> >> Support. SFC does very valuable work. >> >> Andrew > > I agree. > >> >> I'd like to propose that Linux Australia support the Software Freedom >> Conservancy [1] as part of its grants programme. [...] > > >> >> Francois > > > -- > Cheers ? Leon > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >