From email at lukejohn.me  Thu Nov  5 20:32:25 2015
From: email at lukejohn.me (Luke John)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:32:25 +0800
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAO=q8tM7rYfK+-d_1t6qiBC2WKtwSMgur-V2FnTcS8Hkb4QBgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Russell Coker <russell at coker.com.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:25:59 PM Luke John wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Russell Coker <russell at coker.com.au> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:49:59 AM Luke John wrote:
>> >> Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a
>> >> proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and
>> >> embracing diversity.
>> >
>> > The Wikipedia page you cited states that "In Federal Parliament, both
>> > houses start each day with the Lord's Prayer and the Welcome to
>> > Country".  I don't think it's unreasonable for Linux Australia to take
>> > the standards of Federal Parliament as minimum standards.
>>
>> I don't think any standard that includes a prayer can be
>> called reasonable.
>
> I agree that the prayer should be removed.  But this isn't a discussion of
> outdated features of parliament.  The mention of parliament was regarding a
> change that was made recently.  We can copy the good things they do without
> copying the bad stuff.

Sure but to use the Federal Parliament's standards as a minimum you
are left with the task of working out which are both "good things" and
make sense in the context of events run by LA.

>
>> > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race
>> > means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again
>> > we need to acknowledge who was here first.
>>
>> The current policy is sufficiently worded for organisers of LA events
>> who feel similarly to you to include an "Acknowledgement of Country".
>> Likewise at events where organisers do not feel it is appropriate to
>> include, they may choose not to.
>
> Why would someone object to an Acknowledgement of Country?  It's already been
> done with LA events in the past without problem.  It's done at most
> universities without issue and even when it was added to the start of
> parliament it didn't get much notice (I didn't even know they did that until
> today).

*I would object to a mandated "Acknowledgement of Country"*.

You have provided no real evidence that having a mandated
"Acknowledgement of Country" would encourage participation in the LA
community. Other people are doing it is not a reason to do it.  Many
people write closed source software, that's not a good reason for LA
to mandate it.

>> I think having a guide available to organisers discussing ways to help
>> make their event culturally and socially inclusive would be of benefit
>> to the LA community.
>>
>> The following documents seem like a good starting point.
>>
>> https://www.unimelb.edu.au/diversity/downloads/Inclusive-Events.pdf
>
> That has some interesting ideas about a separate area for non-alcoholic
> drinks, separating out beef and pork dishes from other food with separate
> utensils, and using separate BBQ plates.  I don't think that LCA has done too
> badly in this regard, but I know that some other Linux events in Australia
> haven't done so well.
>
>> http://www.flinders.edu.au/staff-development-files/CDIP%20documents/CDIP%20
>> Toolkit%202015/Culturally%20inclusive%20social%20events%202.pdf
>> http://www.latrobe.edu.au/students/equity/equity-and-diversity-documents/C
>> ulturally-Inclusive-social-events.pdf
>
> The first page of each of those demands an Acknowledgement of Country.  Apart
> from that they seem to have much the same content as the first document.

>From my reading they certainly do not *demand* an "Acknowledgement of
Country". They are guidelines and they provide suggestions and
background.

> Given that most of the documents you have referenced have mandated an
> Acknowledgement of Country your argument doesn't seem sustainable.

My position is that the current LA value statement and code of conduct
are sufficient to allow for an "Acknowledgement of Country" at the
discretion of individual organisers.

From paulway at mabula.net  Thu Nov  5 21:19:37 2015
From: paulway at mabula.net (Paul Wayper)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:19:37 +1100
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <CAO=q8tM7rYfK+-d_1t6qiBC2WKtwSMgur-V2FnTcS8Hkb4QBgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM7rYfK+-d_1t6qiBC2WKtwSMgur-V2FnTcS8Hkb4QBgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563B2D39.9010007@mabula.net>

On 05/11/15 20:32, Luke John wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Russell Coker <russell at coker.com.au> wrote:
>> I agree that the prayer should be removed.  But this isn't a discussion of
>> outdated features of parliament.  The mention of parliament was regarding a
>> change that was made recently.  We can copy the good things they do without
>> copying the bad stuff.
> 
> Sure but to use the Federal Parliament's standards as a minimum you
> are left with the task of working out which are both "good things" and
> make sense in the context of events run by LA.

We're always going to have to pick and choose a set of 'minimum standards'.
Whether you pick Federal Parliament, the guidelines in Crucial Conversations,
or the Internet Manifesto, there are always going to be bits that we think
aren't relevant and bits which we'd like to include that aren't.

So either you go on a quest to find the perfect standard for behaviour already
written and argue about which one is right, you pick one and argue about which
bits of it are relevant, or you write your own and argue about the reasoning
behind it.

The key word in there is 'standard' - as in: there are so many to choose from :-)

>>
>> Why would someone object to an Acknowledgement of Country?  It's already been
>> done with LA events in the past without problem.  It's done at most
>> universities without issue and even when it was added to the start of
>> parliament it didn't get much notice (I didn't even know they did that until
>> today).
> 
> *I would object to a mandated "Acknowledgement of Country"*.
> 
> You have provided no real evidence that having a mandated
> "Acknowledgement of Country" would encourage participation in the LA
> community. Other people are doing it is not a reason to do it.  Many
> people write closed source software, that's not a good reason for LA
> to mandate it.

So what you're objecting to is that it be mandated?  You don't object to
people voluntarily putting an Acknowledgement of Country in their conferences
or their talks?

I can see your point, but I think that the reason it's mandated in many
government and official functions is not because it causes a direct engagement
by the first nations of Australia in those functions.  It's a reminder for us
to not forget that we too can do terrible things and then call them nice names
or pretend they didn't happen.  It reminds us that Aboriginal culture is alive
and a part of being Australian, and that we should celebrate it.  It reminds
international people that Australia is not just a former British colony.  And
so much more.

All the reasons why it's mandated in government functions are the reasons why
it should be mandatory at our conferences.

And who knows?  Maybe if an Aboriginal person (definition left unspecified)
comes along to LCA and sees an acknowledgement of country, they'll feel more
included!  Can't hurt, and could help a lot!

Have fun,

Paul

From david_crosswell at telaman.net.au  Thu Nov  5 21:58:30 2015
From: david_crosswell at telaman.net.au (David)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:58:30 +1000
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <563B2D39.9010007@mabula.net>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM7rYfK+-d_1t6qiBC2WKtwSMgur-V2FnTcS8Hkb4QBgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563B2D39.9010007@mabula.net>
Message-ID: <1446721110.1725.7.camel@telaman.net.au>

On Thu, 2015-11-05 at 21:19 +1100, Paul Wayper wrote:
> On 05/11/15 20:32, Luke John wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Russell Coker <russell at coker.com.au
> > > wrote:
> > > I agree that the prayer should be removed.??But this isn't a
> > > discussion of
> > > outdated features of parliament.??The mention of parliament was
> > > regarding a
> > > change that was made recently.??We can copy the good things they
> > > do without
> > > copying the bad stuff.
> > 
> > Sure but to use the Federal Parliament's standards as a minimum you
> > are left with the task of working out which are both "good things"
> > and
> > make sense in the context of events run by LA.
> 
> We're always going to have to pick and choose a set of 'minimum
> standards'.
> Whether you pick Federal Parliament, the guidelines in Crucial
> Conversations,
> or the Internet Manifesto, there are always going to be bits that we
> think
> aren't relevant and bits which we'd like to include that aren't.
> 
> So either you go on a quest to find the perfect standard for
> behaviour already
> written and argue about which one is right, you pick one and argue
> about which
> bits of it are relevant, or you write your own and argue about the
> reasoning
> behind it.
> 
> The key word in there is 'standard' - as in: there are so many to
> choose from :-)

I think we need to look at the idea that the aims of this organisation
are not synonymous with those of Parliament and, frankly, I don't know
why Parliament even emerges here.
We are radically different in agenda, so need to look at a defined,
unique standard. There are challenges emerging all the time in regard
to Linux, and openness in general, which we need to make a statement
on. I don't think anything relating to Parliament is going to attend to
that:

http://infojustice.org/archives/35267

> 
> > > 
> > > Why would someone object to an Acknowledgement of Country? ?

I have absolutely no idea, and I fail to see why we should see fit to
add to that. Locale is immaterial. I'd need five minutes on the street
to find out who the local people were. I don't think ignoring them,
which appears to be somewhat of a speciality in Australia, needs to be
added to the resume of this organisation.
-- 
Kind Regards,

David Crosswell.
Telaman Consultancies
ABN: 97 592 967 932

7 Joyce Street
Walterhall  4714
Queensland 
Australia

[61+7] 4938 2529






From simon at darkmere.gen.nz  Thu Nov  5 22:02:32 2015
From: simon at darkmere.gen.nz (Simon Lyall)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:02:32 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <563B2D39.9010007@mabula.net>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM7rYfK+-d_1t6qiBC2WKtwSMgur-V2FnTcS8Hkb4QBgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563B2D39.9010007@mabula.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1511052344310.14482@gold>

On Thu, 5 Nov 2015, Paul Wayper wrote:
> So what you're objecting to is that it be mandated?  You don't object to
> people voluntarily putting an Acknowledgement of Country in their conferences
> or their talks?

Of course not. I'd fully expect that many events would include it. However 
that should be up to the organisers and people are free to judge the 
quality of the event but it's inclusion or lack of.

A future conference might instead choose to highlight another [political] 
issue.

Please also note that such a ceremony is not free. Even if it only takes a 
couple of minutes (judging from online examples) it is still something that 
has to be arranged, paid for and fitting into the flow of the conference.

-- 
Simon Lyall  |  Very Busy  |  Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/
"To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar


From josh at nitrotech.org  Thu Nov  5 22:03:25 2015
From: josh at nitrotech.org (Joshua Hesketh)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:03:25 +1100
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <201511052158.09160.russell@coker.com.au>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM7rYfK+-d_1t6qiBC2WKtwSMgur-V2FnTcS8Hkb4QBgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201511052158.09160.russell@coker.com.au>
Message-ID: <563B377D.40005@nitrotech.org>



On 05/11/15 21:58, Russell Coker wrote:
> Firstly please don't CC a list that most people in this discussion aren't 
> subscribed to.
Hi Russell,

It was asked that this conversation would be moved to the policy list as
that is the correct forum in which to discuss this. Please kindly
consider this a final email to the more general linux-aus list and
continue the discussion on the policy list.

If you're not subscribed, you're more than welcome to do so here:
http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies
The archives are also available there.

Thanks,
Josh

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From email at lukejohn.me  Thu Nov  5 17:25:59 2015
From: email at lukejohn.me (Luke John)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:25:59 +0800
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tMiVNb91sENw21-1bhcB4KUHuwW=3PLT7RH11Up9U9YaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Russell Coker <russell at coker.com.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:49:59 AM Luke John wrote:
>> Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a
>> proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and
>> embracing diversity.
>
> The Wikipedia page you cited states that "In Federal Parliament, both houses
> start each day with the Lord's Prayer and the Welcome to Country".  I don't
> think it's unreasonable for Linux Australia to take the standards of Federal
> Parliament as minimum standards.

I don't think any standard that includes a prayer can be
called reasonable.

> To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race means
> Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again we need to
> acknowledge who was here first.

The current policy is sufficiently worded for organisers of LA events
who feel similarly to you to include an "Acknowledgement of Country".
Likewise at events where organisers do not feel it is appropriate to
include, they may choose not to.

I think having a guide available to organisers discussing ways to help
make their event culturally and socially inclusive would be of benefit
to the LA community.

The following documents seem like a good starting point.

https://www.unimelb.edu.au/diversity/downloads/Inclusive-Events.pdf
http://www.flinders.edu.au/staff-development-files/CDIP%20documents/CDIP%20Toolkit%202015/Culturally%20inclusive%20social%20events%202.pdf
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/students/equity/equity-and-diversity-documents/Culturally-Inclusive-social-events.pdf

Information of this sort is already shared between organisers of
different LA events through both formal (ie. ghosts) and informal
channels.

From russell at coker.com.au  Thu Nov  5 19:42:54 2015
From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:42:54 +1100
Subject: [LA-Policies] [Linux-aus] Acknowledgement of country
In-Reply-To: <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0D00DFF9-DD78-4B7E-9064-04F65B0AC969@coker.com.au>
 <201511051601.02345.russell@coker.com.au>
 <CAO=q8tM1JyooF7UXmCwtq2tEZLFkLi39curFS6zz450K-JPhyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201511051942.54815.russell@coker.com.au>

On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:25:59 PM Luke John wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Russell Coker <russell at coker.com.au> wrote:
> > On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:49:59 AM Luke John wrote:
> >> Linux Australia currently has an excellent value statement and a
> >> proven track record of being open and welcoming to newcomers and
> >> embracing diversity.
> > 
> > The Wikipedia page you cited states that "In Federal Parliament, both
> > houses start each day with the Lord's Prayer and the Welcome to
> > Country".  I don't think it's unreasonable for Linux Australia to take
> > the standards of Federal Parliament as minimum standards.
> 
> I don't think any standard that includes a prayer can be
> called reasonable.

I agree that the prayer should be removed.  But this isn't a discussion of 
outdated features of parliament.  The mention of parliament was regarding a 
change that was made recently.  We can copy the good things they do without 
copying the bad stuff.

As an aside I'm happy for religious people to pray in their own way in their 
own home or place of worship.  Forcing one particular religion into parliament 
is a bad thing.  If we are going to have any prayers used to open parliament 
then they should give every religious group a chance to send representatives 
to pray.

> > To provide a "fun, welcoming" environment regardles of race (when race
> > means Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people) I think that again
> > we need to acknowledge who was here first.
> 
> The current policy is sufficiently worded for organisers of LA events
> who feel similarly to you to include an "Acknowledgement of Country".
> Likewise at events where organisers do not feel it is appropriate to
> include, they may choose not to.

Why would someone object to an Acknowledgement of Country?  It's already been 
done with LA events in the past without problem.  It's done at most 
universities without issue and even when it was added to the start of 
parliament it didn't get much notice (I didn't even know they did that until 
today).

> I think having a guide available to organisers discussing ways to help
> make their event culturally and socially inclusive would be of benefit
> to the LA community.
> 
> The following documents seem like a good starting point.
> 
> https://www.unimelb.edu.au/diversity/downloads/Inclusive-Events.pdf

That has some interesting ideas about a separate area for non-alcoholic 
drinks, separating out beef and pork dishes from other food with separate 
utensils, and using separate BBQ plates.  I don't think that LCA has done too 
badly in this regard, but I know that some other Linux events in Australia 
haven't done so well.

> http://www.flinders.edu.au/staff-development-files/CDIP%20documents/CDIP%20
> Toolkit%202015/Culturally%20inclusive%20social%20events%202.pdf
> http://www.latrobe.edu.au/students/equity/equity-and-diversity-documents/C
> ulturally-Inclusive-social-events.pdf

The first page of each of those demands an Acknowledgement of Country.  Apart 
from that they seem to have much the same content as the first document.

Given that most of the documents you have referenced have mandated an 
Acknowledgement of Country your argument doesn't seem sustainable.

> Information of this sort is already shared between organisers of
> different LA events through both formal (ie. ghosts) and informal
> channels.

A casual scan of the 3 documents you referenced shows that universities are 
sharing information too.  But they write down their conclusions to make it 
clear to everyone.  I don't think there's any reason why we couldn't do the 
same.  We could even just reference one of the university documents, I'm sure 
that they would be more than happy for us to do so.

-- 
My Main Blog         http://etbe.coker.com.au/
My Documents Blog    http://doc.coker.com.au/

From kathy at kathyreid.id.au  Sun Nov  8 09:42:45 2015
From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:42:45 +1100
Subject: [LA-Policies] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy
Message-ID: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>

Hi everyone,

The level of debate on this issue has ranged from puerile histrionics, 
unworthy of a place in this community, to genuine, thoughtful and well 
informed attempts to build an inclusive, welcoming and mature 
organisation. In an attempt to strengthen the latter, I've drafted a 
Policy which I now seek feedback on at the Policies mailing list.

https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/pull/10/

Kind regards,
Kathy Reid


From lloy0076 at adam.com.au  Sun Nov  8 12:01:47 2015
From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:31:47 +1030
Subject: [LA-Policies] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy
In-Reply-To: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>
References: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>
Message-ID: <002101d119c1$0be7acd0$23b70670$@adam.com.au>

 

Hi Kathy,

 

> -----Original Message-----

> https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/pull/10/

 

I've made some mostly style marks as line comments at github; I hope
that's the right place to put it. In general, the intention of the
policy is good although I've made my reservations about it on the main
mailing list.

 

The most contentious change, I suppose, would be my suggestion to
change:

 

"* Payment will be made for an Indigenous Elder providing a Welcome to
Country at or above the appropriate rate for such services, or in line
with local cultural protocol."

 

Into

"* Linux Australia will provide or pay for an Indigenous Elder providing
a Welcome to Country at or above the appropriate rate for such services,
or in line with local cultural protocol."

 

I would assume that user group meetings, not directly under the auspice
of Linux Australia, are somewhat immune to Linux Australia's policies
If, for whatever reason, Linux Australia would disassociate itself with
a user group that did not follow this policy or protocol [or for that
matter any other of Linux Australia's policies and protocols], I'd
suggest that the council might want to contact all the organisers of the
user groups it is aware of to make this known.

 

I would think that if Linux Australia sponsored an event in some way
then it probably falls under this protocol but unless Linux Australia
itself takes responsibility for a local user group meeting, perhaps
including payment for facilities, local organisation, liability
insurance and such then user groups are free to incorporate this kind of
policy or not.

 

DSL

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From lloy0076 at adam.com.au  Sun Nov  8 12:18:44 2015
From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:48:44 +1030
Subject: [LA-Policies] Diversity / Social Inclusion Policy
Message-ID: <003b01d119c3$69c48920$3d4d9b60$@adam.com.au>

 

Given the recent discussions - rancorous or otherwise - about the
opening of events, it strikes me that there is no obvious diversity or
social inclusion policy. It's touched on in code of conduct but that's
more of a "behave yourself you fools" statement.

 

There are a few obvious groups who are missing in computing in
Australia, in general, and perhaps open source communities in Australia.
For example, in Australia there's a close balance between the number of
women and men but one could hardly argue there's the same balance in the
computing communities in Australia. To be honest, in all my time working
in computing I don't think I've ever seen an Indigenous person working
in any part of the IT industry and I don't think I'm that sheltered.

 

Should Linux Australia simply encourage itself and other organisations
to have diversity and social inclusion programmes? Or take one step
further and require them for sponsorship? Should that be on a case by
case basis? Might it make sense to prefer sponsorship of programmes that
have diversity / social inclusive programmes, all other factors being
equal?

 

Does the current debate highlight the need to address issues of equality
and other social issues in a more comprehensive manner?

 

I wonder.

 

--

David Lloyd

http://www.validlyodd.net/

 

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From david_crosswell at telaman.net.au  Sun Nov  8 12:33:57 2015
From: david_crosswell at telaman.net.au (David)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:33:57 +1000
Subject: [LA-Policies] Diversity / Social Inclusion Policy
In-Reply-To: <003b01d119c3$69c48920$3d4d9b60$@adam.com.au>
References: <003b01d119c3$69c48920$3d4d9b60$@adam.com.au>
Message-ID: <1446946437.1725.14.camel@telaman.net.au>

On Sun, 2015-11-08 at 11:48 +1030, David Lloyd wrote:
> ?
> Given the recent discussions ? rancorous or otherwise ? about the
> opening of events, it strikes me that there is no obvious diversity
> or social inclusion policy. It?s touched on in code of conduct but
> that?s more of a ?behave yourself you fools? statement.
> ?
> There are a few obvious groups who are missing in computing in
> Australia, in general, and perhaps open source communities in
> Australia. For example, in Australia there?s a close balance between
> the number of women and men but one could hardly argue there?s the
> same balance in the computing communities in Australia. To be honest,
> in all my time working in computing I don?t think I?ve ever seen an
> Indigenous person working in any part of the IT industry and I don?t
> think I?m that sheltered.
There are quite a few, actually.
I was connected to Michael when I was part of the LinkedIn set-up,
until I dispensed with it, but will be doing business with him in the
not too distant future.
http://www.messagestick.com.au/
?
They might not make a lot of noise, and there's no obvious reason they
should, but they're around.

> ?
> Should Linux Australia simply encourage itself and other organisations to have diversity and social inclusion programmes? 
That's an obvious positive in regard to the hybrid vigour aspect.
> Or take one step further and require them for sponsorship?
I don't think dictatorship works. It generally engenders antagonism to
some degree or other. Leadership by example is generally acknowledged
as best.
>  Should that be on a case by case basis? Might it make sense to prefer sponsorship of programmes that have diversity / social inclusive programmes, all other factors being equal?
> ?
> Does the current debate highlight the need to address issues of equality and other social issues in a more comprehensive manner?
> ?
> I wonder.
> ?
> --
> David Lloyd
> http://www.validlyodd.net/
> ?
> _______________________________________________
> Policies mailing list
> 
Policies at lists.linux.org.au> 
http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies> 

-- 
Kind Regards,

David Crosswell.
Telaman Consultancies
ABN: 97 592 967 932

7 Joyce Street
Walterhall  4714
Queensland 
Australia

[61+7] 4938 2529




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From matthew.lye at ubuntu.com  Sun Nov  8 12:36:18 2015
From: matthew.lye at ubuntu.com (Matthew Lye)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:36:18 +1000
Subject: [LA-Policies] Diversity / Social Inclusion Policy
In-Reply-To: <003b01d119c3$69c48920$3d4d9b60$@adam.com.au>
References: <003b01d119c3$69c48920$3d4d9b60$@adam.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAFA+CrxFe0NbKz6=4PzvSfdKOwFhC3x+JTUXwC+8yd3nqXPqbQ@mail.gmail.com>

 Considering the potential value in using old computing and Linux to
support and educate communities that don't have good resources and the
prevalence of of those communities in predominately indigenous area I think
going further an actually setting up a fund for getting indigenous people
to linux.conf.au is an idea that should be considered.

Encouraging social diversity and inclusion should be something the Linux
community should always be doing regardless of the indigenous issue.

-Matthew Lye

 Leadership is responsibility, not privilege, Action, not position,
Guidance, not knowledge, and outcome, not disposition.

"Speech is conveniently located midway between thought and action, where it
often substitutes for both." - John Andrew Holmes

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:18 AM, David Lloyd <lloy0076 at adam.com.au> wrote:

>
>
> Given the recent discussions ? rancorous or otherwise ? about the opening
> of events, it strikes me that there is no obvious diversity or social
> inclusion policy. It?s touched on in code of conduct but that?s more of a
> ?behave yourself you fools? statement.
>
>
>
> There are a few obvious groups who are missing in computing in Australia,
> in general, and perhaps open source communities in Australia. For example,
> in Australia there?s a close balance between the number of women and men
> but one could hardly argue there?s the same balance in the computing
> communities in Australia. To be honest, in all my time working in computing
> I don?t think I?ve *ever* seen an Indigenous person working in any part
> of the IT industry and I don?t think I?m that sheltered.
>
>
>
> Should Linux Australia simply encourage itself and other organisations to
> have diversity and social inclusion programmes? Or take one step further
> and require them for sponsorship? Should that be on a case by case basis?
> Might it make sense to prefer sponsorship of programmes that have diversity
> / social inclusive programmes, all other factors being equal?
>
>
>
> Does the current debate highlight the need to address issues of equality
> and other social issues in a more comprehensive manner?
>
>
>
> I wonder.
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Lloyd
>
> http://www.validlyodd.net/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Policies mailing list
> Policies at lists.linux.org.au
> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/policies
>
>
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From david_crosswell at telaman.net.au  Sun Nov  8 13:02:50 2015
From: david_crosswell at telaman.net.au (David)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:02:50 +1000
Subject: [LA-Policies] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy
In-Reply-To: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>
References: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>
Message-ID: <1446948170.1725.31.camel@telaman.net.au>

On Sun, 2015-11-08 at 09:42 +1100, Kathy Reid wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> The level of debate on this issue has ranged from puerile
> histrionics, 
> unworthy of a place in this community, to genuine, thoughtful and
> well 
> informed attempts to build an inclusive, welcoming and mature 
> organisation. In an attempt to strengthen the latter, I've drafted a 
> Policy which I now seek feedback on at the Policies mailing list.
> 
> https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/pull/10/
> 
> Kind regards,
> Kathy Reid
The 'Welcome to Country concept isn't really required, and might even
be looked at a bit askance.

The second option has merit, but there's a constructive way of going
about it.
Aboriginal peoples think differently about things.
If a person from one area travels into another, he's required to give
over what he has to contribute to the common good of the community.
These days, that is often abused, but we can skip that for the purposes
of this exercise.
Once he's done that, and without it he gets nothing, is not owed the
hospitality of the region, nothing, he is then asked for his 'skin
colour' and clan. These are attributes that every Aboriginal person
has. Once he provides those, he is then introduced into his new, local
'family', as it's by this means the system of interrelationship is
determined.

If enquiries were made, before entering into the area, to find out
which tribal group predominated, a simple acknowledgement at the
opening of the conference would suffice. Then, when the conference had
finished, a reasonable donation to a project the local community were
working toward would be sufficient acknowledgement of the traditional
way of doing things that would be appreciated. This would mark Linux.au
as an organisation that had good Aboriginal manners, and weren't just a
bunch of 'Goomies' which is the term applied to a bludger on the
community.

I quite like Andrew's idea, too, but see a way of getting it happening
in a different way. For this it would be best to operate in
coordination with Activ8Me, who handle all the government work in
regard to Aboriginal satellite connectivity. In getting old, recycled
hardware, preinstalled, and installed into the communities. We would
then be looking at a hurdle, however, in regard to
maintenance/updating, unless we could organise that through Activ8Me
also. Perhaps they have somebody already on staff au fait with Linux? ?
-- 
Kind Regards,

David Crosswell.
Telaman Consultancies
ABN: 97 592 967 932

7 Joyce Street
Walterhall  4714
Queensland 
Australia

[61+7] 4938 2529






From david_crosswell at telaman.net.au  Sun Nov  8 13:06:04 2015
From: david_crosswell at telaman.net.au (David)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:06:04 +1000
Subject: [LA-Policies]  Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy
Message-ID: <1446948364.1725.33.camel@telaman.net.au>

Sorry, that should have been 'Matthew', not 'Andrew'.
-- 
Kind Regards,

David Crosswell.
Telaman Consultancies
ABN: 97 592 967 932

7 Joyce Street
Walterhall  4714
Queensland 
Australia

[61+7] 4938 2529






From lloy0076 at adam.com.au  Sun Nov  8 13:53:50 2015
From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 13:23:50 +1030
Subject: [LA-Policies] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy
In-Reply-To: <1446948170.1725.31.camel@telaman.net.au>
References: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>
 <1446948170.1725.31.camel@telaman.net.au>
Message-ID: <005201d119d0$b2de7370$189b5a50$@adam.com.au>


Hi There,

s/Andrew/Matthew/g :)

> I quite like Andrew's idea, too, but see a way of getting it happening 
> in a
> different way. For this it would be best to operate in coordination with
> Activ8Me, who handle all the government work in regard to Aboriginal
> satellite connectivity. In getting old, recycled hardware, preinstalled, 
> and
> installed into the communities. We would then be looking at a hurdle,
> however, in regard to maintenance/updating, unless we could organise
> that through Activ8Me also. Perhaps they have somebody already on
> staff au fait with Linux?

It would be good if we had enough funds - or someone had enough expertise 
and time - to help train the trainers for such an effort as well.

I'm relatively certain that LinuxSA would come on board for both of these 
ideas and I'm within walking distance of ITShare SA's local office and the 
current web-site for computer bank in Victoria says they've run out of 
space (which means a reasonable offer to move some of the computers to 
communities that may put them to use might very well be appreciated).

That said, we've suddenly moved from an acknowledgement policy into 
actually doing something; I suppose that's not a particularly bad side 
step.

Let's ponder what we could achieve - I suspect were the organisers of a 
Linux.Conf.Au to ask delegates to forego one coffee or (le gasp) one beer 
or glass of wine a day, we might be able to come up with enough funds to 
do something useful. I know, it's the practical expertise, time and so 
forth that is probably more important here but, alas, even with 
volunteered time and expertise, the need for colourful pieces of plastic 
will eventually be required.

DSL



From josh at linux.org.au  Sat Nov 21 16:27:30 2015
From: josh at linux.org.au (Josh Stewart)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 05:27:30 +0000
Subject: [LA-Policies] Acknowledgement of / Welcome to country outcome
Message-ID: <CANx2B-4NZJHv8nrMNKC=hke2E30cxSYyH-_-JRXWAt92XH627w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

At this weekends council face to face, the question of whether to create a
new policy around acknowledgements of and welcomes to country was discussed
at length amongst the committee. There are many sides to this question and
the council appreciates the feedback from Linux Australia members on this
list around how to approach this.

After much debate about the merits of each approach, council has decided
not to create a policy that would require subcommittees to have this as
part of their events. We have moved a motion that each subcommittee should
be strongly encouraged consider how this will work best for their event,
but do not believe mandating a single approach to this is the best way
forward.

Again, we thank everyone that participated in this discussion.


Josh Stewart
Linux Australia Vice President
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From david_crosswell at telaman.net.au  Thu Nov 26 11:07:06 2015
From: david_crosswell at telaman.net.au (David)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:07:06 +1000
Subject: [LA-Policies] Draft Indigenous Acknowledgement policy
In-Reply-To: <005201d119d0$b2de7370$189b5a50$@adam.com.au>
References: <563E7E65.5020803@kathyreid.id.au>
 <1446948170.1725.31.camel@telaman.net.au>
 <005201d119d0$b2de7370$189b5a50$@adam.com.au>
Message-ID: <1448496426.28866.13.camel@telaman.net.au>

On Sun, 2015-11-08 at 13:23 +1030, David Lloyd wrote:
> Hi There,
> 
> s/Andrew/Matthew/g :)
> 
> <snip>
> 
> It would be good if we had enough funds - or someone had enough
> expertise 
> and time - to help train the trainers for such an effort as well.

O/K/. I've been away for a week, so catching up.

All the communities have their own administration staff on-site,
already conducting Word courses and the ilk for the local people, so
handling basic familiarisation with Libreoffice Writer/Calc or
Gnumeric/Abiword would be handled locally, without training, once the
local staff had a chance to get to grips with it. Le's face it, the
online help spectrum is a lot more comprehensive than the Microsoft
environment, and if an intranet server was set up to serve between the
communities, it would take them no time at all. Trust me, aboriginal
people think differently, and community interaction is something they
specialise in.

That way, all you're really looking at is updating/upgrading, which the
periodic visits from Activ8Me staff could handle.
Of course you'd need a solid, stable system like Debian to handle this
contract ...
> 
> I'm relatively certain that LinuxSA would come on board for both of
> these 
> ideas and I'm within walking distance of ITShare SA's local office
> and the 
> current web-site for computer bank in Victoria says they've run out
> of 
> space (which means a reasonable offer to move some of the computers
> to 
> communities that may put them to use might very well be appreciated).

I get on well with the people from Buy-IT Back up here in Queensland,
also, and it's definitely a project they could get on board with.

> 
> That said, we've suddenly moved from an acknowledgement policy into 
> actually doing something; I suppose that's not a particularly bad
> side 
> step.
> 
> Let's ponder what we could achieve - I suspect were the organisers of
> a 
> Linux.Conf.Au to ask delegates to forego one coffee or (le gasp) one
> beer 
> or glass of wine a day, we might be able to come up with enough funds
> to 
> do something useful. I know, it's the practical expertise, time and
> so 
> forth that is probably more important here but, alas, even with 
> volunteered time and expertise, the need for colourful pieces of
> plastic 
> will eventually be required.

Definitely some money would be required, but not so much as might be
feared, and with the right approach, possibly even a job for somebody.
That's if the right approach was taken, I'm sure funds could be
allocated.
-- 
Kind Regards,

David Crosswell.
Telaman Consultancies
ABN: 97 592 967 932

7 Joyce Street
Walterhall  4714
Queensland 
Australia

[61+7] 4938 2529