<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Considering there is the option to suppress details, maybe we provide an option of what the member wants to suppress rather than make their mind up for them. </span><div><br></div><div>While it is true an email list should suffice, physical addresses are often needed for things like registers and physical mailing. <div>The issue with email is that these may be unintentionally filtered, where as physical mail is limited by one accepting the price to mail our rather large membership. The filtering is done by the final recipient. </div><div>Personally, if required I would be happy to receive and pay the cost of postage to all members. Conversely, email addresses are collected and distributed a lot, legally and illegally. It is cheaper and easier. </div><div>Some may be more reticent to provide one or the other based on privacy. </div><div>I guess the question is which is more likely to be prone to abuse? Why not let the member decide?</div><div><br></div><div>Marcus</div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite">On 4 Jan 2023, at 5:02 am, Colin Fee via linux-aus <linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Such clauses as 2.7.1 were written when digital communications methods were in their infancy. An association rules needed a means of providing members a check-and-balance mechanism to allow the membership to call a special general meeting should the need arise, using traditional methods of contact e.g. postal mail etc.<div><br></div><div>I agree that nowadays, the (an?) email list would suffice.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 at 15:32, Paul Esson via linux-aus <<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Only First Name and Email are requirements when registering or updating details on linuxaus, This seems to be at odds with 2.7.1 which states: <br><br>> The public officer or the secretary of the association must establish
and maintain a register of members of the association specifying the
name and postal or residential address of each person who is a member of
the association together with the date on which the person became a
member.</div><div><br></div><div>it also makes it hard for the request Marcus made to be satisfied.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I agree with Matthew's sentiment that this mailing list should be sufficient for people to voice their concerns or rally members around a cause, I would be in favor of any change that reflected how Linux Aus operates at the current time and expectations that members have of the organisation in respect to privacy and the data it has about them.<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr">Paul Esson</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 2:08 PM Matthew Lye via linux-aus <<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I've been following this conversation and agree with Marcus's comments with one slight deviation regarding this point:</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">> It would be reasonably simple to address this should that section be removed by adding a line saying that the committee may approve use of the data for sending other material relating to the association if it is deemed reasonable. (Not in those exact words but that idea worded in a way that ties in with the rest of the constitution).</span></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><br></span>While I don’t think you envisage it being abused, it must never be up to be leadership to approve or deny the ability of its members to discuss things. Especially as it can be used to limit discussion of issues with the leadership or the organisation’s direction.</blockquote><div><br></div>Would it not be fair to consider the ability for the members to communicate within the membership group met by providing the mailing list? Asking for additional details for the purposes of contacting members seems redundant and highly prone to abuse.<div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr">-Matthew Lye<br><br><No trees were harmed during this transmission. However, a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced>
</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 at 08:42, Marcus Herstik via linux-aus <<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I have a small comment or 2 below, but the general consensus from the boards and committees I have been on before is that the constitution should allow the leaders to act while ensuring accountability and transparency to the constituents that make up the organisation. <br>
<br>
If the members have issues there must always be a way to organise and remove members. <br>
<br>
> <br>
> On 2 Jan 2023, at 5:41 am, Simon Lees via linux-aus <<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
>> On 1/2/23 14:23, Wil Brown via linux-aus wrote:<br>
>> Hi members,<br>
>> Regarding changes to the LA constitution, I propose we stay within the NSW Fair Trading Model Constitution document [1].<br>
>> The NSW Fair Trading Model Constitution section 4, "Register of members", is the basis for the Linux Australia Constitution section 7 ", Register of members" [2].<br>
>> Deviating too much from the model constitution will likely cause misinterpretation and open the floor to possible legal issues.<br>
> <br>
> This also sounds reasonable to me.<br>
<br>
Definitely best practice to stay as close as possible without good reasons to deviate. <br>
<br>
>> The main issue our members must resolve is satisfying the purpose of obtaining member information and how that works with our privacy policy [3].<br>
>> Our constitution S7(4) [4] states that a member can request "any" part of the register, whereas the model constitution S4(4) states that a member can request "a" part of the register. This word is crucial as in addition to name, postal address and joining date, the register /could /contain additional information, such as email address, phone number etc.<br>
>> I would suggest changing the wording in our constitution S7(4) [4] from "any" to "a", which will help council members vet the member data portion requested with the purpose of the request as outlined in S7(6) both parts (a) and (b) [5], and bring our constitution in line with the NSW Fair Trading model constitution.<br>
>> The purpose of using member data outlined in S7(6)(b) is clear and a compliance requirement.<br>
>> The purpose of using member data outlined in S7(6)(a) needs to be clarified. Using member data for postal newsletters and communications of member meetings and events seems reasonable. However, the phrase "or other material relating to the association" [6] is open for interpretation.<br>
>> Could I suggest that members debate what "other material relating to the association" is appropriate to communicate to a member via their personal data on the register, now and in the foreseeable future?<br>
> <br>
> From a quick read of the constitution I can see a couple of areas that may be impacted which illustrate why this may be important.<br>
> <br>
> Reason One:<br>
> <br>
> In Section 25 Members may call for a special general meeting but as outlined below the amount of paperwork to do such would require some level of coordination<br>
> <br>
> 25. Special general meetings – calling of<br>
> ...<br>
> (2) The committee must, on the requisition in writing of at least 5 per cent of the total number of members or 20 members, whichever number is fewer, convene a special general meeting of the association.<br>
> (a) must state the purpose or purposes of the meeting, and<br>
> (b) must be signed by the members making the requisition, and<br>
> (c) must be lodged with the secretary, and<br>
> (d) may consist of several documents in a similar form, each signed by one or more of the members making the requisition.<br>
> <br>
> Further in Section 19 a member of the committee may be removed in a general meeting<br>
> 19. Removal of committee members<br>
> (1) The association in general meeting may by resolution remove any member of the committee from the office of member before the expiration of the member’s term of office and may by resolution appoint another person to hold office until the expiration of the term of office of the member so removed.<br>
> <br>
> So it seems like a somewhat sensible safeguard that if a group of members believe that say the secretary (or another member) has behaved inappropriately that they may want to discuss with other members the possibility of calling for a SGM without stating the reason. As an individual or group of individuals may not have decided whether they actually want to go ahead with calling a meeting i'm unsure if this case fits within the current reasoning. But I believe that its important for the balance of any constitution even if in the past its caused me many "headaches" when being on the board of community projects (People can ask me about that off list if they really feel like it, its off topic here).<br>
> <br>
> It would be possible to retain such a safeguard by providing a way for a member to contact all other members without giving direct access to personal information, however if this approach was to be taken I believe the constitution should be updated to ensure it remains.<br>
<br>
This must remain to ensure integrity of the organisation or we risk what happened with the ACS. <br>
<br>
> <br>
> Reason Two:<br>
> This is a somewhat strange one for an open source community and maybe points to another section of the constitution that we should consider changing.<br>
> <br>
> 10. Resolution of disputes<br>
> (1) A dispute between a member and another member (in their capacity as members) of the association, or a dispute between a member or members and the association, are to be referred to a community justice centre for mediation under the Community Justice Centres Act 1983.<br>
> (2) If a dispute is not resolved by mediation within 3 months of the referral to a community justice centre, the dispute is to be referred to arbitration.<br>
> (3) The Commercial Arbitration Act 1984 applies to any such dispute referred to arbitration.<br>
> I am not familiar with NSW law and whether the Act listed above gives a Community Justice Centre the legal right to request a members personal details in this case or whether this would be a case that would need to fall under the "other material relating to the association". Having just re read the relevant part of the constitution there is a section (b) "any other purpose necessary to comply with a requirement of the Act or the Regulation." Which covers this but i'll leave this reason because I think there is stuff in the below paragraph worth still discussing here.<br>
<br>
So far I have not been contacted by anyone on council regarding resolving my dispute. <br>
> <br>
> As someone who has been involved in the openSUSE Board, its constitution the first point for conflict resolutions between members should be the the Board, having looked at this in the past I know many open source projects either use there equivelent Board / Council or either a subcommittee or a separate internal body to deal with such situations. Given the constitution already gives the committee the power to discipline members (Section 11) maybe in the case of an organisation such as Linux Australia it makes more sense for such disputes to be handled by the committee or a subcommittee as a first point of call with the ability for them to refer it further if required. This is one part of the constitution that I think probably makes more sense for local bowling clubs etc then it does for Linux Australia which is essentially an international organisation.<br>
While I agree it’s a weird process, especially for a national organisation, it needs to be able to be escalated as well. <br>
Most organisations have a stated jurisdiction, and therefore NSW is fine for that. <br>
However, having a justice centre be the arbiter is likely a waste of their time in the first instance. <br>
The legal fraternity takes a dim view of organisations wasting their time with minor disputes, especially if they can be dealt with internally. <br>
<br>
> <br>
> Reason Three:<br>
> I'm less sure that this is necessarily a reason that needs to be listed in the constitution but the fact its there means we don't really need to think about it.<br>
> <br>
> As far as I can tell the constitution doesn't list anywhere else what the committee and or any sub committees can equally do with the membership data. Other than that they are members and as such can request it.<br>
<br>
We are all equal members, some just have more responsibilities than others. <br>
We should also consider incorporating if we aren’t already. If I am not on the council after election they should talk to a lawyer as to why. <br>
<br>
> Without the clause as currently written if say Linux Australia created a sub committee to review a certain topic and say this subcommittee was made up of non regular committee members, it isn't immediately obvious under current or maybe future privacy laws whether a member of such a sub committee or even a member of the current committee could use that membership information to send out a questionnaire or survey related to there review.<br>
> <br>
<br>
Members of the org can ask for membership information - there is no restriction on the constitution as to reasoning. Therefore, if they are a sub-committee they can request it from the secretary and get it. <br>
Use is covered by disciplinary actions available. <br>
<br>
> It would be reasonably simple to address this should that section be removed by adding a line saying that the committee may approve use of the data for sending other material relating to the association if it is deemed reasonable. (Not in those exact words but that idea worded in a way that ties in with the rest of the constitution).<br>
> <br>
<br>
While I don’t think you envisage it being abused, it must never be up to be leadership to approve or deny the ability of its members to discuss things. Especially as it can be used to limit discussion of issues with the leadership or the organisation’s direction. <br>
<br>
> Thanks<br>
> <br>
> Simon Lees<br>
> <br>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 3:45 PM Kathy Reid <<a href="mailto:kathy@kathyreid.id.au" target="_blank">kathy@kathyreid.id.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kathy@kathyreid.id.au" target="_blank">kathy@kathyreid.id.au</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> Thanks so much Wil and Jonathan - super helpful!<br>
>> We have a clear way forward for anyone wanting to contribute to<br>
>> changing the Constitution :-)<br>
>> Best, Kathy<br>
>>> On 19/12/2022 12:10 pm, Wil Brown wrote:<br>
>>> Thanks, Kathy<br>
>>> Since the initial ask for members' information was requested, we<br>
>>> (the council) have discussed and noted that the current<br>
>>> Constitution wording for section seven, specifically subsections<br>
>>> three and four, likely need to be updated [1] to be 1) in line<br>
>>> with changes to the NSW Fair Trading Act model constitution, 2)<br>
>>> set a realistic time for response, 3) clarity of what data can be<br>
>>> obtained, 4) what it can be used for and 5) how the constitution<br>
>>> and privacy policies work together.<br>
>>> We also noted that the timeframe between the then council meeting<br>
>>> (October 26, 2022) and the upcoming AGM was unrealistic to discuss<br>
>>> and implement the changes. We will raise this as an issue for the<br>
>>> 2023 LA Council to action.<br>
>>> In the meantime, we welcome all members to contribute to the<br>
>>> discussion on this thread.<br>
>>> Refs:<br>
>>> [1]<br>
>>> <a href="https://linux.org.au/council-meeting-26th-october-2022-minutes/#:~:text=Do%20we%20need%20to%20change%20the%20wording%20in%20the%20constitution%20S7(3)%20and%20S7(4)%20to%20explicitly%20state%20what%20register%20data%20a%20member%20can%20receive%20upon%20request%3F" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linux.org.au/council-meeting-26th-october-2022-minutes/#:~:text=Do%20we%20need%20to%20change%20the%20wording%20in%20the%20constitution%20S7(3)%20and%20S7(4)%20to%20explicitly%20state%20what%20register%20data%20a%20member%20can%20receive%20upon%20request%3F</a> <<a href="https://linux.org.au/council-meeting-26th-october-2022-minutes/#:~:text=Do%20we%20need%20to%20change%20the%20wording%20in%20the%20constitution%20S7(3)%20and%20S7(4)%20to%20explicitly%20state%20what%20register%20data%20a%20member%20can%20receive%20upon%20request%3F" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linux.org.au/council-meeting-26th-october-2022-minutes/#:~:text=Do%20we%20need%20to%20change%20the%20wording%20in%20the%20constitution%20S7(3)%20and%20S7(4)%20to%20explicitly%20state%20what%20register%20data%20a%20member%20can%20receive%20upon%20request%3F</a>><br>
>>> Regards,<br>
>>> Wil.<br>
>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:02 AM Kathy Reid via linux-aus<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a><br>
>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>> Hi folx,<br>
>>> Firstly I hope that this note finds everyone safe, well and<br>
>>> doing OK,<br>
>>> after another challenging year on several fronts.<br>
>>> Here, I'm weaving together several threads of discussion on<br>
>>> the mailing<br>
>>> list in an attempt to help the community forge a path ahead;<br>
>>> this isn't<br>
>>> Council endorsed - I'm doing this because I know how much<br>
>>> Council has on<br>
>>> at this time of year with end of year accounting, annual<br>
>>> report and<br>
>>> election preparation. They simply don't have time to get<br>
>>> involved in<br>
>>> discussions on list at the moment. So, I'm providing<br>
>>> information that<br>
>>> the community needs if they want to change the Constitution. I<br>
>>> am going<br>
>>> to remain neutral on whether the constitution *should* be<br>
>>> changed - and<br>
>>> limit the information here to the tools the community can use to<br>
>>> *effect* change, if desired.<br>
>>> CONSTITUTIONAL BACKGROUND<br>
>>> Linux Australia is an incorporated association registered in<br>
>>> the state<br>
>>> of New South Wales. As such, the primary legislative authority<br>
>>> is the<br>
>>> Office of Fair Trading in NSW [1]. The primary underpinning<br>
>>> legislation<br>
>>> is the NSW Incorporated Associations Act 2009 (NSW) [2]. The<br>
>>> legislation divides Associations into Tier 1 and Tier 2<br>
>>> organisations,<br>
>>> depending on their size and assets. Linux Australia, due to its<br>
>>> holdings, is a Tier 1 organisation.<br>
>>> The Office of Fair Trading makes available a "model<br>
>>> constitution" that<br>
>>> associations can use as their association constitution - this<br>
>>> gets<br>
>>> updated from time to time, and was most recently updated<br>
>>> earlier in the<br>
>>> year [3]. For example, the new model constitution is more<br>
>>> specific about<br>
>>> elements such as the quorum required at general meetings. It<br>
>>> provides an<br>
>>> excellent basis for LA's constitution, but has had holes in it<br>
>>> in the<br>
>>> past. I haven't read the new one in depth, so cannot comment<br>
>>> on it here.<br>
>>> PREVIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGES<br>
>>> Linux Australia has previously made constitutional changes,<br>
>>> generally<br>
>>> with the intent to come into compliance with the Act, or to<br>
>>> remain<br>
>>> compliant. Some of the organisational history here is before<br>
>>> my time,<br>
>>> but I've done my best to provide links to relevant changes.<br>
>>> You'll note<br>
>>> that community discussion on changes was, ah, equally vociferous.<br>
>>> - In 2004, changes were made to allow the Secretary to approve<br>
>>> memberships without needing approval by a Committee (Council)<br>
>>> meeting<br>
>>> (among others I think) [4]<br>
>>> - In 2011, changes were made to align with the Act and I<br>
>>> believe to move<br>
>>> the financial year of the organisation to better align with<br>
>>> conference<br>
>>> financials [5]<br>
>>> MAKING A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE<br>
>>> In general, the Council has the power to make a constitutional<br>
>>> change<br>
>>> without consulting the membership. In practice, this has been<br>
>>> discussed<br>
>>> on this mailing list, and often put to a formal vote of<br>
>>> members. For<br>
>>> example, in 2017, a proposal to change the organisation's name<br>
>>> was<br>
>>> proposed (for transparency, by me in my capacity as<br>
>>> then-President), and<br>
>>> voted on as a motion at the upcoming AGM [6]. Once a decision<br>
>>> has been<br>
>>> arrived at, a member of the Council, or the organisation's public<br>
>>> officer then contacts the Office of Fair Trading to update the<br>
>>> Constitution. Fair Trading must agree to the change, and for this<br>
>>> reason, Linux Australia will provide a rationale for the change -<br>
>>> including, for example, results of a motion voted on at an AGM<br>
>>> or SGM.<br>
>>> MAKING CHANGE HAPPEN IN PRACTICE<br>
>>> So, that's the *legislative* and *procedural* aspect of<br>
>>> constitutional<br>
>>> change for Linux Australia. In reality, the process of change<br>
>>> often<br>
>>> takes months of negotiation, discussion and debate on list. These<br>
>>> discussions can get heated and occasionally, uncivil - so<br>
>>> let's avoid<br>
>>> that - but the energy here shows the passion that our<br>
>>> membership has for<br>
>>> creating structures that reflect our values and desired ways<br>
>>> of working.<br>
>>> WHAT NEXT?<br>
>>> - If the community wishes to change the Constitution, you need<br>
>>> to reach<br>
>>> agreement on what you want to change it *to*<br>
>>> - The Model Constitution is a good starting point.<br>
>>> - In the past, GitHub has been used as a platform to<br>
>>> transparently<br>
>>> discuss and see changes and proposals -<br>
>>> <a href="https://github.com/linuxaustralia" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/linuxaustralia</a><br>
>>> <<a href="https://github.com/linuxaustralia" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/linuxaustralia</a>>.<br>
>>> - When a loose consensus has been arrived at, the change is<br>
>>> generally<br>
>>> put up for voting on - at an AGM or SGM. They both have notice<br>
>>> periods.<br>
>>> Kind regards,<br>
>>> Kathy Reid<br>
>>> [1]<br>
>>> <a href="https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations</a> <<a href="https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations</a>><br>
>>> [2]<br>
>>> <a href="https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-2009-007" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-2009-007</a> <<a href="https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-2009-007" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-2009-007</a>><br>
>>> [3]<br>
>>> <a href="https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations/starting-an-association/model-constitution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations/starting-an-association/model-constitution</a> <<a href="https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations/starting-an-association/model-constitution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/associations-and-co-operatives/associations/starting-an-association/model-constitution</a>><br>
>>> see also<br>
>>> <a href="https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/1102491/Model-Constitution-for-Associations-2022-3.docx" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/1102491/Model-Constitution-for-Associations-2022-3.docx</a> <<a href="https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/1102491/Model-Constitution-for-Associations-2022-3.docx" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/1102491/Model-Constitution-for-Associations-2022-3.docx</a>><br>
>>> [4] 2004 -<br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2004-January/009490.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2004-January/009490.html</a> <<a href="https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2004-January/009490.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2004-January/009490.html</a>><br>
>>> [5] 2011 -<br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2011-May/018832.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2011-May/018832.html</a> <<a href="https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2011-May/018832.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2011-May/018832.html</a>><br>
>>> [6]<br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2017-December/023288.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2017-December/023288.html</a> <<a href="https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2017-December/023288.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2017-December/023288.html</a>><br>
> <br>
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