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<p>A courtesy note to indicate that community feedback on this
application is due 4th July and is scheduled for discussion at
Council meeting 7th July, <br>
</p>
<p>Kind regards, <br>
</p>
<p>Kathy<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/06/17 17:27, Kade Morton via
linux-aus wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:S_S-CEqOoHCFUQHaAwxcX4PIqE7O6OoOMJ9j8Dx4L9Dv2j8i5LPajnDCALtGLTSUG9phr5bQxCkvBnfZFFkzfyZKPzlECNTO_pCAiOmx6k8=@protonmail.com">
<div>Hi Rowland,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>More than happy to run through to help the application
process.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We've not yet approached funding bodies outside of technology
for a few reasons (but will down the track). One reason being
it's hard to explain a decentralised and distributed database
and what it can be used for to most people outside of tech, but
the main reason is that a lot of bodies like NHMRC generally
only fund research. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One researcher we've spoken to was telling us about issues
between the two main funding bodies in their field, they were
working on pacemakers. The bio mechanical body rejected them
because they felt medical devices should be funded by the
medical body and the medical body rejected them because they
felt physical devices should be funded by the bio mechanic body.
The project (open sourcing pacemaker designs to drive down
costs) has stalled without funding. NHMRC and the like have very
narrow criteria for funding, for something like Aletheia to even
be considered for funding you would need to have the application
up and running to sway assessors and we aren't at that stage
yet. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When we are though, we will be approaching university
libraries (the department at the university that bares the
paywall cost) to run nodes and we're already reaching out to
researchers who are vocally anti-paywall to generate a small
amount of content on the network. With some content and
university libraries running nodes we can then approach funding
bodies that otherwise would not have looked at us.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree one of the perpetuating forces of paywalls is that
researchers need to publish in high impact journals for funding
and promotions, this is a social problem. Due to their
exclusivity though not all researchers do publish in high impact
journals, and then you have some that don't publish in them on
principle. That's our target demographic to begin with while we
socialise our reputation system with the community. We've been
working Peita Lin, an economic behaviourist who used to work on
human behaviour in financial events like runs on the banks to
build our reputation system. Most open access journals have the
impact problem and because of this people don't often submit to
them, they don't generate profit (off submission fees) and they
go out of business. We need plurality in open access and a
transparent reputation system that shows your complete history
is a more scientific way of going about rankings than simply
throwing around high impact names, we think it will appeal to
researchers and catch on. One of the current academics on our
team has our reputation system as their niche of the project.
Over time we think we can make inroads into these problems by
popularising this new standard. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the single point of failure I don't want to detract from
the work people do to make sure websites have low downtime but I
still think this is a big plus we have. We've designed Aletheia
under the assumption it will be attacked. You install the client
which comes bundled with a none on your machine, once the
network is up and running that will mean the network will have
nodes in multiple legal jurisdictions and to distrupt the
network you would need to compromise or take down a critical
number of nodes. This should be a tall order to accomplish. Plus
the network is administered by the community rather than a
central person or body meaning removal of key people won't
hamper the network. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Reason we've designed the network this way is it's often not
gone well for people working in this space. Aaron Swartz was
brought up on felony charges and Alexandra Elbakyan has an
active extradition order hanging over her head. Also, it might
seem like a stretch that a nation state would attempt to attack
a scientific journal but I'd argue it's not. The current U.S.
administration has put out statements that they would take down
climate science databases and there is currently a movement to
mirror as much climate data as possible in the (unlikely but
possible) event this does happen. I spoke to Nick Santos who
started the climate mirror movement and offered Aletheia as an
open source, decentralised and distributed mirror once we're on
our feet. I wholeheartedly appreciate websites can easily be
architected for high availability, but there isn't a lot that
can be done if you're served a legal takedown order. Our network
is designed with that eventuality in mind. This is also our
jumping off point for what we can offer past academic publishing
once we demonstrate the software works.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think the social impact our technical aspects could have
are being understated as well. Being a DAO and community run it
could be that Aletheia really takes off with citizen scientists
and become a premier platform for them. The transparency around
funding we have by default might spur other open access journals
to adopt similar methods. I want to stress that we are very eyes
wide open to the social norms, traditions, rituals and "we've
always done it this way" mentality in academic publishing and I
think we have a strong case to, as I said, make inroads into
those problems. But also I think we have a strong case to at the
same time run counter to these social norms and practices by
providing a vastly different and free service to what's out
there currently, appeal to the element of the academic community
that's predisposed to us by being anti-paywall, build our
community that way. It places us in a strong position to further
the existing conversation around these social problems, why they
exist and what can be done about them.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wasn't aware of the European Comission's pending decision,
the below is the news I've had my eye on the last few days: <a
href="https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/dramatic-statement-european-leaders-call-immediate-open-access-all-scientific-papers"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/dramatic-statement-european-leaders-call-immediate-open-access-all-scientific-papers</a>
Unfortunately I'm quite skeptical about it due to the revenue
very profitable publishers stand to lose, I imagine there will
be heavy lobbying to reverse this which is why I'm passionate
about open source contributing to this issue in a positive way.
The current system of paywalls was given to us by companies and
governments, I don't think companies and governments are going
to change that system anytime soon while it remains as lucrative
as it is.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="protonmail_signature_block ">
<div class="protonmail_signature_block-user ">
<div>Kade Morton<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton
protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="protonmail_quote">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant application to Linux
Australia for Aletheia<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: June 19, 2017 10:06 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: June 19, 2017 12:06 PM<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rowland.mosbergen@gmail.com">rowland.mosbergen@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Kade Morton <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kademorton@protonmail.com"><kademorton@protonmail.com></a><br>
</div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au"><linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:council@linux.org.au">council@linux.org.au</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:council@linux.org.au"><council@linux.org.au></a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div>I just saw this on Twitter and thought it would be worth
sharing: <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170404/09344237080/european-commission-may-join-gates-foundation-wellcome-trust-becoming-open-access-publisher.shtml"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170404/09344237080/european-commission-may-join-gates-foundation-wellcome-trust-becoming-open-access-publisher.shtml</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<p style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 10px">One of Europe's
biggest science spenders could soon branch out into
publishing. The European Commission, which spends more
than €10 billion annually on research, may follow two
other big league funders, the Wellcome Trust and the Bill
& Melinda Gates Foundation, and set up a "publishing
platform" for the scientists it funds, in an attempt to
accelerate the transition to open-access publishing in
Europe.<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>El 19 jun. 2017 17:27, "Rowland Mosbergen" <<a
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="mailto:rowland.mosbergen@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">rowland.mosbergen@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thanks for the feedback Kade.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The biggest concern that I see for researchers on a
year to year basis is the ability to increase the
probability for the NHMRC, ARC and other funding
bodies to fund their work. This is directly tied into
the papers they publish, where they publish and their
citation record (among other things). I think it would
be interesting to know how you are approaching the
funding bodies and their reactions to your ideas. I
think without this your technical fix would not be
sustainable.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While some of the technical discussions you
mentioned I think are interesting technically, in my
opinion they aren't even close to the priority that is
needed on the same level as the communty issues. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example:<br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>websites can easily be architected for high
availability (we do this ourselves),<br>
</li>
<li>PlosOne has all it's content protected by <a
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="http://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/licenses-and-copyright"
moz-do-not-send="true">CC-BY</a> and <br>
</li>
<li>PlosOne has an impact factor (<a rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLOS_ONE"
moz-do-not-send="true">3.057 in 2015</a>)<br>
</li>
</ul>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Not that Aletheia isn't a cool idea. I just want
to ensure that we can tease out the pros and cons to
allow the Linux Australia community to work out if
this fits into their funding model.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Whatever the outcome I think you are raising this
issue at the right time as it's a hot topic in
research.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rowland.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Kade Morton <span
dir="ltr"><<a rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="mailto:kademorton@protonmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">kademorton@protonmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi Rowland,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the below. We've consulted pretty
widely with researchers here in Aus and overseas
(two of the people on our team currently publish
academic papers in their fields and we're working
with a group Jon Tennant is involved with that are
publishing a thesis around a better peer review
process, our peer review process is going to be
build around their findings). If it strengthens
the application I can list out the different
researchers and groups we've spoken with.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd contend we do need a technical fix to
paywalls along with a community fix and we're
looking to address both. F1000Research, PLOS ONE
and others are great, even Sci-Hub if you feel
adventurous, but I think we have some positives
over existing solutions.<br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Websites are a single point of failure, they
can fall over through neglect or malicious
actors. Aletheia is a decentralised and
distributed database, no single point of
failure.<br>
</li>
<li>Open access journals and preprint archives can
be bought out by larger paywall journals.
Aletheia is under a GNU Lesser General Public
License v3.0, Elsevier is not buying us.<br>
</li>
<li>Open access journals charge for submissions,
it's free to submit to Aletheia. We're looking
at how the platform can be monetised but it
won't be through submission of or access to
content.<br>
</li>
<li>You can't see what open access journals spend
their money on, we publish our financial
records.<br>
</li>
<li>Open Access journals often die because they
don't make profit, we're community run so as
long as we have enough community nodes the
contents of Aletheia is stored forever.<br>
</li>
<li>Open Access journals don't have publishing
impact factor. We won't either, but we're
building a reputation system based on submitted
articles, peer review articles (our platform
handles peer review), community participation
and some other factors. This transparent
reputation score is your contribution academia
so we're looking to turn that into publishing
impact factor once we are well established.<br>
</li>
<li>The community doesn't have a say in how open
access journals are run usually, they are a bit
of a block box. The community runs Aletheia as a
decentralised autonomous organisation.<br>
</li>
<li>Open access aren't not open source, you can
audit all our code, look at how we are storing
papers and data sets, etc.<br>
</li>
<li>There has been little innovation in academic
publishing since journals were established in
the 16th centry. The only real change is the
journals now have websites and databases. I
think looking at doing something different in
this space is worth the effort just for the
exploration alone, and I'd rather open source
communities do that exploring over corporations
because if a better way is hit on it should be
open from the start.<br>
</li>
<li>A decentralised and distributed database
administered as a DAO has applications past
scientific publishing, we want to prove it works
in this space and then move into other areas. <br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>I'm not sure if this covers all your concerns,
we have a white paper covering Aletheia's features
if you're interested, <a rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="https://github.com/aletheia-foundation/aletheia-whitepaper/blob/master/WHITE-PAPER.md"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/aletheia-fo<wbr>undation/aletheia-whitepaper/<wbr>blob/master/WHITE-PAPER.md</a>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Kade Morton<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_3110312837833434948HOEnZb">
<div class="m_3110312837833434948h5">
<blockquote
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant
application to Linux Australia for Aletheia<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: June 19, 2017 3:36 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: June 19, 2017 5:36 AM<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="mailto:rowland.mosbergen@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">rowland.mosbergen@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Kade Morton <<a rel="noreferrer
nofollow noopener"
href="mailto:kademorton@protonmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">kademorton@protonmail.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>
<<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>><wbr>,
<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="mailto:council@linux.org.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">council@linux.org.au</a>
<<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href="mailto:council@linux.org.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">council@linux.org.au</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi Kade,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As a person who works with researchers
everyday at the University of Melbourne,
the idea of paywalls is a very hot topic
at the moment.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Open access publications such as
F1000Research and PLOS ONE have provided
researchers with more choices than ever
before.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yet the big publications can still
provide paywalls due to the way that
research funding is granted, based on
publication impact factor. Being able to
publish in Nature gives one an advantage
the next time the NHMRC and ARC grants
come around.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my opinion, the issue around
paywalls in research is very much one that
needs a community fix, not a technical
fix. And that fix is going to be a long
and complicated journey.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am unsure how much of this backstory
you know or which researchers you have
talked to from a range of disciplines like
Life Sciences, Humanities, Astronomy etc.
I would highly recommend engaging with
these researchers if you don't have those
relationships already.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>In my opinion, this kind of project
would be discussed at a University and
Funding level (eg NHMRC) both nationally
and internationally. I think the
technical considerations would be of a
very low priority<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rowland Mosbergen<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:52 PM,
Kade Morton via linux-aus <span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>I've been asked to resend<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>***<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031m_-5320593009250776848protonmail_quote">
<div>Hi all,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wanted to make a grant for
the open source project I
co-founded, Aletheia.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Project name: Aletheia<br>
</div>
<div>Aim of the project: To provide
an alternative to publishing
scientific research behind
paywalls and to popularise
decentralised autonomous
organisations.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Aletheia is a decentralised and
distributed database which we're
applying to academic publishing.
Basically a a database that is
free to upload to and access from,
administered by the community as a
decentralised autonomous
organisation. Aletheia would be an
alternative to publishing research
behind paywalls.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have a look at our source code
here: <a
href="https://github.com/aletheia-foundation/aletheia-app"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/aletheia-fo<wbr>undation/aletheia-app</a><br>
</div>
<div>Have a look at our community
documentation here: <a
href="https://github.com/aletheia-foundation/aletheia-admin"
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/aletheia-fo<wbr>undation/aletheia-admin</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Key stages or milestones of the
project: <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Completed<br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Onboarding documents up to
standard that newcomers can come
onto the project, documents
hosted on GitHub.<br>
</li>
<li>Participated in the Mozilla
Global Sprint <a
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="https://mozilla.github.io/global-sprint/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mozilla.github.io/glob<wbr>al-sprint/</a><br>
</li>
<li>Get application running on
Ubuntu<br>
</li>
<li>Get application running on Mac<br>
</li>
<li>Cofounder to complete courses
through Mozilla to help create
avenues for Mozilla's continued
support for Aletheia<br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>To be Completed<br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Get application running on
Windows<br>
</li>
<li>Finish MVP (aiming for 27th of
October 2017)<br>
</li>
<li>Run presentation about
Aletheia and the applications of
decentralised and open source
technology in science at MozFest
(application made, waiting to
hear for acceptance,
presentation will be in London,
27th of October 2017) <br>
</li>
<li>Finish Aletheia 2.0 (aiming
for 1st of July 2018)<br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>How the success of the project
will be measured: Number of
downloads, number of active
community users and number of
documents stored in Aletheia<br>
</div>
<div>Estimated cost breakdown of the
project, including any materials,
projects or online services that
are required to deliver the
project. The cost breakdown should
include estimates of labour costs
and/or professional services:<br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>$15,000 for Extra Credits to
create a video covering
Aletheia.<br>
</li>
<li>$10,000 legal fees, up front
consultation and ongoing<br>
</li>
<li>$2,000 incidentals incurred so
far (server costs, custom domain
name, travel expenses we have
coming up)<br>
</li>
<li>$5,000 to have website
professionally built.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>These are a great deal of
costs. I'd be happy to just apply
to have the video covered. We
think a professionally created
video that's engaging and made by
a talented group of people with a
large fan base that's easily
sharable on social media and can
be given to anyone who asks "what
is Aletheia?" would be the
greatest boon to our project. We
need to get the word out about our
project and increase the rate of
volunteers coming on to the
project, we think the visual
medium of a video is the best way
to do this. Unfortunately we don't
have any video editors working on
the project yet, and we've
attempted to negotiate an "open
source rate" with Extra Credits
but they have said $15,000 is the
lowest they will go. This single
cost can be paid and therefore
count as incurred before 30th of
September 2017.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The project team, their
credentials and professional
capabilities, especially their
history of open source, open data,
open hardware or open culture
contributions:<br>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Kade Morton, Mozilla regional
coordinator for Brisbane,
Mozilla techspeaker, completed
the Mozilla open leadership
course for open source projects,
organised Aletheia's
contributions to Mozilla's
Global Sprint 2017, board member
of Electronic Frontiers
Australia<br>
</li>
<li>Roo (wishes to remain
anonymous) cofounded Aletheia
with Kade, works for
ThoughtWorks on a number of open
source projects, is extremely
active in running privacy,
online security and
decentralisation meetups
locally. If our application
hinges on the identity of
Aletheia's cofounder I can
approach him and ask if he would
mind his name being disclosed to
the council but as a blanket
rule he has asked for
anonymity. <br>
</li>
</ul>
<div>Person responsible for project:
Kade Morton<br>
</div>
<div>A statement including a
willingness to provide regular
project updates on the project: I
would be more than happy to
provide Linux Australia with
regular status updates on Aletheia
and how our client is coming
along.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031m_-5320593009250776848protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031m_-5320593009250776848protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Kade Morton<br>
</div>
<div>Twitter: @cypath <br>
</div>
<div>LinkedIn: <a
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="http://linkedin.com/in/kade-morton-34179283"
moz-do-not-send="true">linkedin.com/in/kade-morton-34<wbr>179283</a><br>
</div>
<div>Keybase: <a
rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="https://keybase.io/kademorton"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://keybase.io/kademorton</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031m_-5320593009250776848protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_3110312837833434948m_-3319256380107568031m_-5320593009250776848protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
</div>
<div>linux-aus mailing list<br>
</div>
<div><a
href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au"
rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a><br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noreferrer nofollow
noopener"
href="http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.linux.org.au/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/linux-aus</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
linux-aus mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus">http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Kathy Reid
President
Linux Australia
0418 130 636
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:president@linux.org.au">president@linux.org.au</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://linux.org.au">http://linux.org.au</a>
Linux Australia Inc
GPO Box 4788
Sydney NSW 2001
Australia
ABN 56 987 117 479 </pre>
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