<div dir="ltr">I haven't read most of the thread. I read the bit where our nominated, voted representatives are fending off accusations of being benevolent dictators, and then a bit of the rest. We voted for them, there's no dictatorship, but our leaders are benevolent. I support the current leadership fully, and I support the process by which they were elected. <div><br></div><div>Having been involved in organising many things* I now ask the question of "what is a person's highest value function"? When it comes to this issue, what's the highest value function of everyone concerned?<div><br></div><div>I would strongly prefer the LCA leadership to be focused on the driving narratives of the organisation. That is (in my own opinion only) -- organising conferences, advocating for Linux, supporting user groups and supporting the community.</div><div><br></div><div>Wrangling a project like an infrastructure upgrade is always harder than you think, requires a lot of commitment, and merits being done well. The work is often tricky, requires an attention to detail, and needs focus.</div><div><br></div><div>For me, the question of value for money isn't about the cost of the solution as much as the value of the time of those in leadership. If this approach allows the committee to most efficiently use their time in office, then I fully support the strategy. </div><div><br></div><div>I do also support the questioning to make sure the committee has actually run the numbers to make sure this is affordable. To my eyes, 23k is not a big number for what's being proposed. So long as the money is in the bank (so to speak), then barring the risk of a major project blowout, I think it's well worth the recouped time and attention from the committee to get this done.</div><div><br></div><div>But mostly I just want to say how grateful I am that this organisation exists, and that we have great leadership.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 7 December 2016 at 17:57, Kathy Reid <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kathy@kathyreid.id.au" target="_blank">kathy@kathyreid.id.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Thanks everyone - this sort of robust debate and evaluation of
our actions I feel helps us both ensure we're doing the right
things, and doing them the right way. This feedback is welcome -
it is passionate and well argued. The opposite of passion is
apathy. <br>
</p>
<p>TL;DR a round table / hangout / teleconf with passionate people
is a great idea - thanks Hugh for suggesting it. <br>
</p>
<p>AJ, your email questioned a number of actions and directions and
I'd like to take the opportunity to respond if I may. <br>
</p>
<h4>Why choose CiviCRM, choose to have it outsourced not hosted
internally, and why does it cost $23k?</h4>
<p>To begin the selection process, we identified a set of user
requirements, written as user stories (ie. 'As the Secretary I
want to do X function to get Y outcome). This set of requirements
was tested against both existing MemberDB and CiviCRM demo
instance. We didn't go further than CiviCRM (for instance SugarCRM
or other open CRMs) because the fit with CiviCRM was strong, and
it also ran on Drupal (our existing web platform), and there are
several CiviCRM providers in Australia. Should we have looked
wider for other CRM tools that fit the requirements? Possibly, but
each assessment is time - and we are stretched for time. <br>
</p>
<p>We also (at Hugh's prompting - all credit here) looked at whether
MemberDB rewrite would be a suitable option. The writer of
MemberDB advised us to adopt CiviCRM. <br>
</p>
<p>We sought three quotes for CiviCRM implementation (the three
CiviCRM partners in Australia listed on the CiviCRM website). One
vendor didn't respond, a second's approach was appalling
(requiring a signed document before a conversation) and the third,
from a company called AgileWare, was thorough, methodical and
robust. <br>
</p>
<p>I have no relationship or history with AgileWare. <br>
</p>
<p>So, to why we would outsource the setup and support of CiviCRM.
Firstly, it's a specialised product. You need product knowledge to
configure it appropriately, and undertake ETL from the other
system (MemberDB). So why get it hosted externally? For the same
reason. It's a specialist product, not say a vanilla httpd or
smtpd - it requires specialist knowledge to host and tune it well.
<br>
</p>
<p>Is $23k too much? No, this included setup, configuration and ETL
of CivicCRM and some training on getting the most out of the
system. Both Hugh and I bounced this off others who work in the
web space - as I do professionally - and this was considered 'ball
park'. <br>
</p>
<p>One point I'd like to make here is about *using* an open source
system versus *running* one. While I agree that Linux Australia
should wherever possible run open source systems, it's the Council
and Subcommittees that have to *use* the tools that we put in
place. I, and others in Council, spend hours per week on LA
systems - they need to be easy to use - and not a chore. If
there's an error, I need it fixed. If the system's down, I need an
SLA to tell me when it will be up. LA is no longer a small
operation - we run 10 events or so a year, with a turnover of over
a million dollars, and over a thousand confirmed members, and a
broad stakeholder group. For example, to do membership renewal,
we had to export from MemberDB into mailchimp, then we will have
to spend several hours manually reconciling records, via raw SQL,
in MemberDB. Not my idea of fun. The point is we're stretched -
better systems help us do more tasks, quicker - freeing up time to
do other things. These systems need to be stable, mature, and well
supported. <br>
</p>
<h4>Is Kathy a benevolent dictator?<br>
</h4>
<p>This thread I find a little hard to swallow to be frank. We
openly called for nominations to the Membership committee, and a
cursory question to any members of the committee would answer the
'did Kathy railroad this through' question. <br>
</p>
<p>I'm not going to apologise for having a plan - a strategic
outlook - for the organisation. Quite frankly, I see it as the
role of the Council to set this direction - with input, guidance
and feedback from the LA Membership - and AJ has provided some
frank and fearless feedback on this. </p>
<p>I'd really like to see *more* feedback - what's working, what's
not working, what we should be doing, what we shouldn't be doing.
<br>
</p>
<p>Kind regards,</p>
<p>Kathy<br>
</p><div><div class="h5">
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="m_4601388715088307044moz-cite-prefix">On 07/12/16 10:49, Hugh Blemings wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi AJ, All,
<br>
<br>
Thanks for your considered reply AJ. What follows is a bit of a
combo of attempt to respond and open letter, please bear with me.
<br>
<br>
I've had a busy few weeks and while I'm aware there were some
outstanding questions from your earlier emails, I just haven't had
the bandwidth sorry.
<br>
<br>
You raise some fair questions about the choice of membership
management platform, in particular going for FOSS alternatives
versus something FOSS+paid for or whatever combination CivCRM
might be seen to represent.
<br>
<br>
I had understood that this had been canvassed by the Membership
Committee and while I recognise Kathy may have a preference for
CiviCRM, yours is the first suggestion I've had that she has
allowed this preference to overshadow a proper evaluation
process. I'll leave it to her to comment further on that - not I
hasten to add because I'm cranky about what you've said :)
<br>
<br>
Candidly - would love to have you contribute if you've the
bandwidth - I'd reached out once or twice and not heard from you
so assumed you were frantic - which is ok :) It'd be wonderful to
have your expertise and energy back in Council or wherever you
feel fit to contribute.
<br>
<br>
The tricky bit with this will always be whether we can have tools
that are truly maintainable in the long term versus varying
degrees of commercial offerings. While in some ways unfortunate,
the move to Xero does seem to have paid other dividends, but
perhaps this could have been accomplished with Libre tools as well
?
<br>
<br>
I'd, truly, love to be proven wrong in this, but given the
difficulties we face as an organisation just keeping what we have
ticking over with stretched but capable volunteers I'm frankly
unsure where we go in the pay versus roll your own equation - I
trust others smarter than I to research, report and implement.
<br>
<br>
I'm going to suggest something a little radical perhaps too - is
it worth convening an actual real-time conversation (say
teleconference) to kick some of these things over amongst
interested folk. Email can at times be a blunt instrument ?
<br>
<br>
Cheers,
<br>
Hugh
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________
<br>
linux-aus mailing list
<br>
<a class="m_4601388715088307044moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a>
<br>
<a class="m_4601388715088307044moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus" target="_blank">http://lists.linux.org.au/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/linux-aus</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
linux-aus mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.linux.org.au/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/linux-aus</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">--------------------------------------------------<br>Tennessee Leeuwenburg<br><a href="http://myownhat.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://myownhat.blogspot.com/</a><br>"Don't believe everything you think"</div>
</div>