<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
color:black;}
h4
{mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 4 Char";
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
color:black;
font-weight:bold;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
color:black;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
color:black;}
span.Heading4Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 4 Char";
mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 4";
font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;
color:#2E74B5;
font-style:italic;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>You’ve limped along <b>without</b> a $23K CRM until now; I really can’t see how CiviCRM or SugarCRM (which is actually less hassle to setup than CiviCRM and has a backer less likely to disappear) costs $23K.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Let me make a counter proposal: employ someone whose cost and expense is $17,000 to work with the currenct systems. You’ve just saved $6,000.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>What monetary benefit would Linux Australia get from buying CiviCRM?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>What governance benefit would it get?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>And why haven’t you asked anyone on linux-as to help you do the chore tasks that take hours? In fact I’m not sure I’ve heard the Council (or you) ask for help at all…for…much (I’m inclined to say anything).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>What’s <b>not working</b>? I think the Council is working as a group that keeps the organization going. I don’t think it’s working to promote the organizations goals through means OTHER than running events. I think you agree and I think you’ve identified why.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I’ve said before the problem isn’t legal; it’s not structural. You just don’t have enough volunteers…(I can’t be more blunt than that).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>DSL<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces@lists.linux.org.au] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathy Reid<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 7 December 2016 1:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> Hugh Blemings <hugh@blemings.org>; Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>; null <linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Linux-aus] Candidacy Support Statement - President or Ordinary Council Member<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Thanks everyone - this sort of robust debate and evaluation of our actions I feel helps us both ensure we're doing the right things, and doing them the right way. This feedback is welcome - it is passionate and well argued. The opposite of passion is apathy. <o:p></o:p></p><p>TL;DR a round table / hangout / teleconf with passionate people is a great idea - thanks Hugh for suggesting it. <o:p></o:p></p><p>AJ, your email questioned a number of actions and directions and I'd like to take the opportunity to respond if I may. <o:p></o:p></p><h4>Why choose CiviCRM, choose to have it outsourced not hosted internally, and why does it cost $23k?<o:p></o:p></h4><p>To begin the selection process, we identified a set of user requirements, written as user stories (ie. 'As the Secretary I want to do X function to get Y outcome). This set of requirements was tested against both existing MemberDB and CiviCRM demo instance. We didn't go further than CiviCRM (for instance SugarCRM or other open CRMs) because the fit with CiviCRM was strong, and it also ran on Drupal (our existing web platform), and there are several CiviCRM providers in Australia. Should we have looked wider for other CRM tools that fit the requirements? Possibly, but each assessment is time - and we are stretched for time. <o:p></o:p></p><p>We also (at Hugh's prompting - all credit here) looked at whether MemberDB rewrite would be a suitable option. The writer of MemberDB advised us to adopt CiviCRM. <o:p></o:p></p><p>We sought three quotes for CiviCRM implementation (the three CiviCRM partners in Australia listed on the CiviCRM website). One vendor didn't respond, a second's approach was appalling (requiring a signed document before a conversation) and the third, from a company called AgileWare, was thorough, methodical and robust. <o:p></o:p></p><p>I have no relationship or history with AgileWare. <o:p></o:p></p><p>So, to why we would outsource the setup and support of CiviCRM. Firstly, it's a specialised product. You need product knowledge to configure it appropriately, and undertake ETL from the other system (MemberDB). So why get it hosted externally? For the same reason. It's a specialist product, not say a vanilla httpd or smtpd - it requires specialist knowledge to host and tune it well. <o:p></o:p></p><p>Is $23k too much? No, this included setup, configuration and ETL of CivicCRM and some training on getting the most out of the system. Both Hugh and I bounced this off others who work in the web space - as I do professionally - and this was considered 'ball park'. <o:p></o:p></p><p>One point I'd like to make here is about *using* an open source system versus *running* one. While I agree that Linux Australia should wherever possible run open source systems, it's the Council and Subcommittees that have to *use* the tools that we put in place. I, and others in Council, spend hours per week on LA systems - they need to be easy to use - and not a chore. If there's an error, I need it fixed. If the system's down, I need an SLA to tell me when it will be up. LA is no longer a small operation - we run 10 events or so a year, with a turnover of over a million dollars, and over a thousand confirmed members, and a broad stakeholder group. For example, to do membership renewal, we had to export from MemberDB into mailchimp, then we will have to spend several hours manually reconciling records, via raw SQL, in MemberDB. Not my idea of fun. The point is we're stretched - better systems help us do more tasks, quicker - freeing up time to do other things. These systems need to be stable, mature, and well supported. <o:p></o:p></p><h4>Is Kathy a benevolent dictator?<o:p></o:p></h4><p>This thread I find a little hard to swallow to be frank. We openly called for nominations to the Membership committee, and a cursory question to any members of the committee would answer the 'did Kathy railroad this through' question. <o:p></o:p></p><p>I'm not going to apologise for having a plan - a strategic outlook - for the organisation. Quite frankly, I see it as the role of the Council to set this direction - with input, guidance and feedback from the LA Membership - and AJ has provided some frank and fearless feedback on this. <o:p></o:p></p><p>I'd really like to see *more* feedback - what's working, what's not working, what we should be doing, what we shouldn't be doing. <o:p></o:p></p><p>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p>Kathy<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 07/12/16 10:49, Hugh Blemings wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Hi AJ, All, <br><br>Thanks for your considered reply AJ. What follows is a bit of a combo of attempt to respond and open letter, please bear with me. <br><br>I've had a busy few weeks and while I'm aware there were some outstanding questions from your earlier emails, I just haven't had the bandwidth sorry. <br><br>You raise some fair questions about the choice of membership management platform, in particular going for FOSS alternatives versus something FOSS+paid for or whatever combination CivCRM might be seen to represent. <br><br>I had understood that this had been canvassed by the Membership Committee and while I recognise Kathy may have a preference for CiviCRM, yours is the first suggestion I've had that she has allowed this preference to overshadow a proper evaluation process. I'll leave it to her to comment further on that - not I hasten to add because I'm cranky about what you've said :) <br><br>Candidly - would love to have you contribute if you've the bandwidth - I'd reached out once or twice and not heard from you so assumed you were frantic - which is ok :) It'd be wonderful to have your expertise and energy back in Council or wherever you feel fit to contribute. <br><br>The tricky bit with this will always be whether we can have tools that are truly maintainable in the long term versus varying degrees of commercial offerings. While in some ways unfortunate, the move to Xero does seem to have paid other dividends, but perhaps this could have been accomplished with Libre tools as well ? <br><br>I'd, truly, love to be proven wrong in this, but given the difficulties we face as an organisation just keeping what we have ticking over with stretched but capable volunteers I'm frankly unsure where we go in the pay versus roll your own equation - I trust others smarter than I to research, report and implement. <br><br>I'm going to suggest something a little radical perhaps too - is it worth convening an actual real-time conversation (say teleconference) to kick some of these things over amongst interested folk. Email can at times be a blunt instrument ? <br><br>Cheers, <br>Hugh <br><br>_______________________________________________ <br>linux-aus mailing list <br><a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a> <br><a href="http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus">http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus</a> <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>