<div dir="ltr">There is, of course, a difference between a hiring decision and a decision to provide targetted support to the community. I'm not saying there's nothing worth discussing there, but just pointing out they are also different. The targetted support is designed to help build community and build the love of the game, so that when they get around to applying for the job, their heart *is* in it.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Noel Butler <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:noel.butler@ausics.net" target="_blank">noel.butler@ausics.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">On 30/10/2013 10:27, Lev Lafayette wrote:<br>
> Hi Noel,<br>
><br>
> On Wed, October 30, 2013 11:05 am, Noel Butler wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> If you want the job, you must love the industry, so you learn the job,<br>
>> for IT you need obviously have a passion for it, study hard, and prove<br>
>> to prospective employers you are better than the next candidate,<br>
>> regardless of your sex, I've been on interview panels where I elected<br>
>> to<br>
>> hire a woman over a man, simply because SHE was the best candidate, I<br>
>> have also hired a man over a woman, because HE was the best candidate.<br>
><br>
> What about the references posted by Brianna and Jessica?<br>
><br>
> The problem is that due to structural discrimination, due to our own<br>
> internal and often unrealized biases, is that less than optimal choices<br>
> are made regarding gender etc., even in circumstances where formal<br>
> equality exists.<br>
><br>
><br>
</div><div class="im">> This has costs involved, not just to the individuals concerned in the<br>
> transaction, but to everyone who misses out on having (for example) a<br>
> more<br>
> optimal candidate selected for an IT position because of these biases.<br>
> As<br>
> this has a social cost (c.f., externalities) legal systems can and do<br>
> intervene to rectify this.<br>
<br>
</div>I'm not saying its a perfect world, I know of people who have hired<br>
because someone was "hot" (their words) and know of some who have<br>
problem hiring women because they have little kids and concerned about<br>
loss of productivity through their absence. I know of some who avoid<br>
hiring anyone under 25 (reason SHE gave me was they are mostly still<br>
immature party brats who call in sick with hangovers)<br>
<br>
But not all HR officers, employers, managers, or members of hiring<br>
panels are sexist.<br>
<br>
<br>
You cant make someone learn an industry if their heart is not in it, the<br>
chances of them leaving are high, the chances of them bludging are<br>
higher, the cost to the business is high - I've wasted time looking for,<br>
sifting through and short listing, interviews, and engaged a person,<br>
then train that person on our local policies and ways of doing things,<br>
that process can often be 6 or so weeks (of lost time) so when they<br>
leave, I have to start the entire process again, wasting another 6 or<br>
so weeks, not to mention the overtime and excess work others in the dept<br>
need to do to make up for being down a team member, which also affects<br>
their families, as it adds more pressure on them not being home until<br>
late, or even part of weekends where they could be out spending it with<br>
their kids at sporting events etc.<br>
<br>
So, it plays a very important part in an interview when finding out why<br>
someone wants the the job, how they got interested in (say for eg) IT.<br>
If people want to work in IT, they need to have the passion, same if<br>
people want to code, they need to have a passion for it.<br>
<br>
If I was a betting man, I'd say there is no-one here who got into Linux<br>
admining or coding, from scratch, simply because they thought there was<br>
a sexual imbalance, we are all here because we love what we do.<br>
<br>
I can tell you now I've scored 0 a number of people who have said crap<br>
like " oh I was unemployed for ages, so looked at a tafe course, and<br>
chose IT" when asked when was this, they reply "oh 6 months ago" - GTF<br>
outa here is my 'under the breath' response if they are over 20, if<br>
under 20, a few more nigly questions are shot their way, to make sure<br>
its what they really want to do since I accept most school leavers dont<br>
really know what they want to do until they hit the end of their teens,<br>
so I am more forgiving on someone under 20, but that said, the risks are<br>
just as equal.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>--------------------------------------------------<br>Tennessee Leeuwenburg<br><a href="http://myownhat.blogspot.com/">http://myownhat.blogspot.com/</a><br>
"Don't believe everything you think"
</div>