<div dir="ltr">What do you mean "accept"? I would I accept something I think is just wrong? It's not a matter of being defensive and refusing to accept, it's just I don't agree.</div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Luke Martinez <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:me@luke.asia" target="_blank">me@luke.asia</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">How about, we actually accept that less women enjoy doing I.T. than men and _that's_ why they're not in I.T.? And we don't need to go on a quest to find women to join IT?<br><br>Just like how we're not going on an "Affirmative action" quest to gain male teachers, nurses etc. <br>
<br>Maybe, just maybe, there _is_ a difference between genders. And It's okay.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Michael Cordover <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:la@mjec.net" target="_blank">la@mjec.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I know one shouldn't feed the trolls but I think it's important that<br>
not just the trolls have a say.<br>
<br>
I've only been an LA member less than a year. I'm barely active. I<br>
don't know membership statistics. I can't speak for anyone but myself.<br>
<br>
Here's what I think though. I think women are as capable as men. I<br>
think there is a serious shortage of female participation in STEM in<br>
general and in computing in particular. I think this is because of<br>
systematic disincentives to participation put in place by society. I<br>
also think some of it is probably direct discrimination - though<br>
thankfully not within LA.<br>
<br>
I think the end result is we don't have the meritocracy we'd like. We<br>
have people with potential and people with merit not participating in<br>
the community. The best sign of that is the differing participation<br>
levels of men and women despite no inherent difference in merit.<br>
<br>
There's an obvious and simple solution to this: targeted programs<br>
which provide incentives to people affected by this. These can provide<br>
support to overcome the barriers that exist and restore baseline<br>
quality. The idea is that this permits meritorious selection and<br>
participation. The reality is, however, that the incentives almost<br>
always fall short of truly addressing the barriers. What use is a<br>
supportive space when some idiot will criticise that support in<br>
public? It helps but it isn't transformative. It's a stepping stone to<br>
a situation where eventually, hopefully, there's not a differing level<br>
of participation.<br>
<br>
And you know what? IT WORKS. We can identify a problem by data<br>
analysis - consistent, statistically significant differential<br>
participation rates by gender. We hypothisise as to the cause -<br>
differential incentives caused by social mores. We try a solution -<br>
equalising incentives by providing targeted support. And all of a<br>
sudden participation rates rise -- and continue to rise, beyond merely<br>
the level the support provides. The data is clear. Targeted support<br>
programs help to address inequality.<br>
<br>
People who don't support targeted support (affirmative action, special<br>
programs, whatever you want to call it) do so because either they<br>
don't think women are underrepresented, or because they think women<br>
deserve the be underrepresented. I used to think that because direct<br>
discrimination was effectively eliminated there was no inequality. On<br>
that basis I thought there was no need for any affirmative action. But<br>
then I looked at some data and it became clear that there was some<br>
systematic problem. The disparity is too consistent and too pervasive<br>
to be an accident.<br>
<br>
I've ranted enough. I've not articulated well. I've not addressed the<br>
depth or breadth of the issue. I haven't touched on unfair<br>
inequalities other than gender. But I think it's important to have at<br>
least said something.<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
Michael<br>
<br>
--<br>
<a href="http://mjec.net/" target="_blank">http://mjec.net/</a><br>
</font></span><div><div><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
linux-aus mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au" target="_blank">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus" target="_blank">http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div style="text-align:center"><br></div><div style="text-align:center">Luke Martinez<br>
<font size="1">me@luke<font size="1">.asia</font></font></div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
linux-aus mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au">linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus" target="_blank">http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>--------------------------------------------------<br>Tennessee Leeuwenburg<br><a href="http://myownhat.blogspot.com/">http://myownhat.blogspot.com/</a><br>
"Don't believe everything you think"
</div>