From dvalin at internode.on.net Thu Jun 1 16:35:16 2023 From: dvalin at internode.on.net (dvalin at internode.on.net) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 16:05:16 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] Become C programmer Message-ID: <4cef08094b8efe97a423ac42dc976b5a1fe96319@webmail.internode.on.net> On 31.05.23 18:22, James Cameron via linux-aus wrote: > You can deepen this, using tools such as the source code, gdb, strace, > valgrind, and tcpdump.? Use them on top of how you use the programs. In a career in embedded systems, I only used gdb out of that lot. (But perhaps should have used valgrind.) I did find Exuberant Ctags great for navigating code. (Though it's no longer distributed with Vim) Familiarity with a VCS is an asset. (It's all GIT now, so my CVS skills are very Last Century.) When running teams, my first three rules were: Confirm that the code repository backups work. Confirm that the code repository backups work. Confirm that the code repository backups work. While working in the solution domain, problem domain awareness that comes from understanding the hierarchical refinement of "What -> How", descending from a Customer Specification, through a System Architecture and Implementation Specification, down to module implementations, makes a developer more able to work with minimal supervision. (Works best when the project schedule includes module and subsystem tests prior to system testing.) But that comes with experience. Incidentally, it appears that the Japanese Moon Lander crashed from 5 km up, because management changed the landing zone, without rerunning the simulation testing of the software. The new path sent it over a high crater lip, the software then flagged (good) radar altimetry as bogus, losing vital navigational feedback. The lower crater floor apparently contributed to running out of fuel before touchdown. The point?: Regression testing must include not only code changes. (I never allowed any requirements change without an incremental requirements analysis, a project delay and resource cost estimate, and a meeting at which the proposed change could be withdrawn.) The point?: Except for the first one, and one where requirements were regularly changed due to the need for compatibility with an external system, over 30 years the projects finished on time and on budget. While managing teams, I had time to do some Solaris & Linux sysadmin, so can understand the motivation to move from visible problems and invisible successes to creative endeavour with demonstrable successes.Good Luck! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Fri Jun 2 08:58:12 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 08:58:12 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Dovecot/Postfix 2FA Message-ID: <13490126.zAa99ISigo@xev> What are the best options for 2FA with Dovecot/Postfix? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From kenosti at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 04:55:33 2023 From: kenosti at gmail.com (Anestis Kozakis) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 04:55:33 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS Message-ID: I was wondering fi people could summarize me the difference as well s the pros and cons fo GlusterFS vs CephFS inr regards to the following uses: File Server/System and creating Virtual Machines and Containers. I will, of course, do my own research, but I am looking to get other people's experiences and opinions. Anestis. -- Anestis Kozakis | kenosti at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neill at ingenious.com.au Tue Jun 6 09:53:04 2023 From: neill at ingenious.com.au (Neill Cox) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 09:53:04 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My personal experience is that Ceph is much more reliable than Gluster. My experience with Ceph is with using it as a storage backend for OpenStack, so not so much with CephFS as such. My advice would be to use rbd rather than CephFS if you can. I think at this point Ceph is much more widely used and far better supported. Cheers, Neill On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 04:56, Anestis Kozakis via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > I was wondering fi people could summarize me the difference as well s the > pros and cons fo GlusterFS vs CephFS inr regards to the following uses: > > File Server/System and creating Virtual Machines and Containers. > > I will, of course, do my own research, but I am looking to get other > people's experiences and opinions. > > Anestis. > -- > Anestis Kozakis | kenosti at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -- Neill Cox Ingenious Software -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux at m0les.com Tue Jun 6 10:45:47 2023 From: linux at m0les.com (Miles Goodhew) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 10:45:47 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anestis, I used to be "The Ceph guy" at a large an annoying government department. I think the nutshell differences I see are: Gluster: ? Smaller scale (5-ish nodes max, I think) ? Network filesystem only ? Integrated services (storage and control/mgmt on the same boxes) ? Limited redundancy and failure-domain options ? A little simpler to set up on its own Ceph: ? Scales up to gigantic, multi-region clusters ? Block storage (RBD), File storage (CephFS) and Object storage (RGW) options available ? Control/mgmt can be on separate nodes (And should be unless you have a really small cluster) ? Any speed, redundancy (replication or erasure coding) or failure-domain setup you can think of. You can have multiple setups for different storage pools within the cluster. ? Takes a bit more planning and implementation to deploy Like Neill said: Openstack uses the RBD application to present "disk like" virtual storage devices to the compute nodes for the VMs to use. The old Redhat Enterprise Virtualisation (OVirt) *used* to use Gluster as its network storage system (putting disk images as files on top of it). However I'm not sure this is still the case. CephFS works really well as an NFS replacement (it's just a lot more fiddly to set up). RGW can present itself as either S3 or Swift protocol (Or a "weird" NFS version too - but don't go there). Hope that's enough, but not too much info, M0les. On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, at 04:55, Anestis Kozakis via linux-aus wrote: > I was wondering fi people could summarize me the difference as well s the pros and cons fo GlusterFS vs CephFS inr regards to the following uses: > > File Server/System and creating Virtual Machines and Containers. > > I will, of course, do my own research, but I am looking to get other people's experiences and opinions. > > Anestis. > -- > Anestis Kozakis | kenosti at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steven.ellis at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 10:46:32 2023 From: steven.ellis at gmail.com (Steven Ellis) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 12:46:32 +1200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The bigger question is how much storage do you need and do you need a distributed scale out storage environment like Ceph or Gluster. Both of these typically require 3+ physical servers in order to operate correctly. If you're going to use Ceph with Containers look at Rook as a wrapper. VMs - it depends on your hypervisor tooling and any live migration requirements. File wise CephFS is pretty stable these days and has better consistency than using NFS/CIFs. Steven On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 6:56?AM Anestis Kozakis via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > I was wondering fi people could summarize me the difference as well s the > pros and cons fo GlusterFS vs CephFS inr regards to the following uses: > > File Server/System and creating Virtual Machines and Containers. > > I will, of course, do my own research, but I am looking to get other > people's experiences and opinions. > > Anestis. > -- > Anestis Kozakis | kenosti at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at deepport.net Wed Jun 7 07:53:11 2023 From: andrew at deepport.net (Andrew Radke) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 07:53:11 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Miles, I?ve been a ZFS guy from long before Linux had heard of it. The data integrity in ZFS, performance with the ARC and L2ARC on modern machines with excess RAM and fast storage, and snapshots that can be taken and shoved around the network or to external disks are just part of why I rarely think about other filesystems. But I?ve looked at Ceph a few times over the last few years since Proxmox has it largely built in. I?m loath to reduce the level of data integrity I have now with ZFS. How do you find Ceph compares? Also how well does Ceph work with nodes with only one storage device in them? For instance we have some that only support one NVMe and one SATA, so we could put the boot/OS on a SATA SSD and then use the NVMe for Ceph. Cheers, Andrew > On 6 Jun 2023, at 10:45 am, Miles Goodhew via linux-aus wrote: > > Hi Anestis, > I used to be "The Ceph guy" at a large an annoying government department. I think the nutshell differences I see are: > > Gluster: > Smaller scale (5-ish nodes max, I think) > Network filesystem only > Integrated services (storage and control/mgmt on the same boxes) > Limited redundancy and failure-domain options > A little simpler to set up on its own > Ceph: > Scales up to gigantic, multi-region clusters > Block storage (RBD), File storage (CephFS) and Object storage (RGW) options available > Control/mgmt can be on separate nodes (And should be unless you have a really small cluster) > Any speed, redundancy (replication or erasure coding) or failure-domain setup you can think of. You can have multiple setups for different storage pools within the cluster. > Takes a bit more planning and implementation to deploy > Like Neill said: Openstack uses the RBD application to present "disk like" virtual storage devices to the compute nodes for the VMs to use. The old Redhat Enterprise Virtualisation (OVirt) used to use Gluster as its network storage system (putting disk images as files on top of it). However I'm not sure this is still the case. > > CephFS works really well as an NFS replacement (it's just a lot more fiddly to set up). RGW can present itself as either S3 or Swift protocol (Or a "weird" NFS version too - but don't go there). > > Hope that's enough, but not too much info, > > M0les. > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, at 04:55, Anestis Kozakis via linux-aus wrote: >> I was wondering fi people could summarize me the difference as well s the pros and cons fo GlusterFS vs CephFS inr regards to the following uses: >> >> File Server/System and creating Virtual Machines and Containers. >> >> I will, of course, do my own research, but I am looking to get other people's experiences and opinions. >> >> Anestis. >> -- >> Anestis Kozakis | kenosti at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at etc.gen.nz Wed Jun 7 08:15:28 2023 From: andrew at etc.gen.nz (Andrew Ruthven) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 10:15:28 +1200 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <912d1abb53539d8d92f87da1fbebb1cbbcd57c6f.camel@etc.gen.nz> On Wed, 2023-06-07 at 07:53 +1000, Andrew Radke via linux-aus wrote: > Also how well does Ceph work with nodes with only one storage device in them? For instance we have > some that only support one NVMe and one SATA, so we could put the boot/OS on a SATA SSD and then > use the NVMe for Ceph. Yeah, this would work okay. I would think that a bigger chassis with more NVMe devices would be more cost effective though. Incidentally, I've been thinking about getting 4x Turing Pi V2 boards with CM4s for home and run a Ceph OSD per Turing board. Little k8s cluster with a shared filesystem. There was even a time when people were looking at running the Ceph OSD (the bit that actually manages the data in the filesystem) in Ethernet enabled hard drives. I'm pretty sure that there was a proof of concept running. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Ruthven, Wellington, New Zealand andrew at etc.gen.nz | Catalyst Cloud: | This space intentionally left blank https://catalystcloud.nz | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux at m0les.com Wed Jun 7 13:03:00 2023 From: linux at m0les.com (Miles Goodhew) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 13:03:00 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Ceph FS vs Gluster FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ab2d806-3274-4d40-b55a-b8ed0d483f5f@app.fastmail.com> Hi Andrew, I'm not really able to compare with ZFS as I'm not all that familiar with the intricacies of its capabilities. However I can talk about a couple of the data integrity weirdnesses we had w/r to "hardware problems" with the cluster I dealt with. So herein lie some taradiddles. I'll address the last question first: Ceph works *fine* with nodes that have a single storage device (you just have to have 3 of them). You can force Ceph to function with fewer than 3 storage nodes (i.e. 3 separate networked computers), but it'll fight you and whine incessantly. The default failure domain is per-node and the default redundancy is 3-copy replication, so each copy will live on a different storage node. Ceph *intends* to have good data integrity, but if the stars align just the right way, it can have a "negative feedback" on system integrity. Two big incidents stick out to me: The first involved a problem with disk read errors in our "spinning disk" pools. This was using Ceph 12 ("Luminous"), which is pretty old and I suspect the issue might be mitigated a bit in later versions. The hardware vendor probably preferred/intended its customers use the inbuilt hardware RAID of the nodes to make read errors disappear to the OS. However we wanted to use Ceph for redundancy handling, so didn't use the hardware RAID. The issue is that the Ceph convention is that if a disk gets a read error, it's "bad" and is already degraded/remapping sectors and you should replace it. About 5% of the disks exhibited a behavior where they'd get a single block read error a long time after commencing service, then another one about 15m later. A small number of disks (<1%) got multiple read errors on an ongoing basis ("really bad" disks). Ceph just "gave up" on fixing redundancy sets (called a "placement group"/PG in Ceph parlance) if there's a block read. So the PG remained inconsistent and a warning flagged. It's a pretty simple fix to tell Ceph to repair the PG, but it's a manual process. The departmental change policy was pretty inflexible and demanded that any non-automated repair processes involved filling in a form that took about 5 minutes, getting 2nd level management approval, exemptions from SIT and PIT teams (Which involved filling another form and then *finding* and cajoling the team leads to approve it), then fronting a 2H Friday meeting to defend your change and if it's approved the change then needs to be implemented between 8pm and 4 am the next Tuesday night (I am not joking). So instead I just set-up a cron job to repair any inconsistent PGs every hour. This worked "fine" (i.e. a hack to fit the rules) except for those "really bad" disks, which could often get a read error *while* a PG on it was being repaired. This was a pretty rare occurrence, but it meant that the PG had to have some fairly drastic surgery to get it unstuck. So I also implemented another automated process to hunt for disks "going really bad" and remove them from the cluster before this could happen. These bad disks have a pretty big impact on any VMs using them resulting in multiple tens of seconds I/O delays. Anther big problem we had was an "imperfect storm" of networking problems. The department had a single networking vendor (managed externally to my team) with a single flat network across the department (Not how we'd prefer it done). The networking setup meant that all data needed to traverse leaf/spine switches to get between any nodes. In the Ceph/Openstack pod, we had 2 leaf and 2 spine switches with redundant cross-connected links between them. Each of these 4 links "thought" they were configured correctly, but an incomplete/failed config update in the aforementioned 8pm-4am change window resulted in one link dropping all traffic. This resulted in 1/4 packet loss and because of the 3-way handshake only 1/4 of TCP connections could be established. So far, so bad. Ceph's OSDs were going down and coming up quickly as a result. The Ceph management software saw this as failing nodes and started marking all these "flapping" nodes as "out" (i.e. "I know this exists, but I'll just ignore it for now and not try to talk to it"). As a result it started trying to rebuild redundant copies of data on other nodes (...which were also "flapping"). Fun times! It took a couple of days to convince the right guy in the networking team to diagnose and fix the networking issues. There's a special place in hell for the vendor's support engineer who determined that the networking hardware saying all links are fine meant it wasn't a networking issue. OK, that's more than enough waffle. Hope that was of some help. M0les. On Wed, 7 Jun 2023, at 07:53, Andrew Radke wrote: > Hi Miles, > > I?ve been a ZFS guy from long before Linux had heard of it. The data integrity in ZFS, performance with the ARC and L2ARC on modern machines with excess RAM and fast storage, and snapshots that can be taken and shoved around the network or to external disks are just part of why I rarely think about other filesystems. > > But I?ve looked at Ceph a few times over the last few years since Proxmox has it largely built in. I?m loath to reduce the level of data integrity I have now with ZFS. How do you find Ceph compares? > > Also how well does Ceph work with nodes with only one storage device in them? For instance we have some that only support one NVMe and one SATA, so we could put the boot/OS on a SATA SSD and then use the NVMe for Ceph. > > Cheers, > Andrew > >> On 6 Jun 2023, at 10:45 am, Miles Goodhew via linux-aus wrote: >> >> Hi Anestis, >> I used to be "The Ceph guy" at a large an annoying government department. I think the nutshell differences I see are: >> >> Gluster: >> ? Smaller scale (5-ish nodes max, I think) >> ? Network filesystem only >> ? Integrated services (storage and control/mgmt on the same boxes) >> ? Limited redundancy and failure-domain options >> ? A little simpler to set up on its own >> Ceph: >> ? Scales up to gigantic, multi-region clusters >> ? Block storage (RBD), File storage (CephFS) and Object storage (RGW) options available >> ? Control/mgmt can be on separate nodes (And should be unless you have a really small cluster) >> ? Any speed, redundancy (replication or erasure coding) or failure-domain setup you can think of. You can have multiple setups for different storage pools within the cluster. >> ? Takes a bit more planning and implementation to deploy >> Like Neill said: Openstack uses the RBD application to present "disk like" virtual storage devices to the compute nodes for the VMs to use. The old Redhat Enterprise Virtualisation (OVirt) *used* to use Gluster as its network storage system (putting disk images as files on top of it). However I'm not sure this is still the case. >> >> CephFS works really well as an NFS replacement (it's just a lot more fiddly to set up). RGW can present itself as either S3 or Swift protocol (Or a "weird" NFS version too - but don't go there). >> >> Hope that's enough, but not too much info, >> >> M0les. >> >> On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, at 04:55, Anestis Kozakis via linux-aus wrote: >>> I was wondering fi people could summarize me the difference as well s the pros and cons fo GlusterFS vs CephFS inr regards to the following uses: >>> >>> File Server/System and creating Virtual Machines and Containers. >>> >>> I will, of course, do my own research, but I am looking to get other people's experiences and opinions. >>> >>> Anestis. >>> -- >>> Anestis Kozakis | kenosti at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >>> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at stumbles.id.au Thu Jun 8 21:11:57 2023 From: ben at stumbles.id.au (Ben Sturmfels) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 21:11:57 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Employing staff/Single Touch Payroll/MyGovID - help! Message-ID: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> Hi folks, Do anyone run a small business and have experience employing staff and dealing with PAYG tax witholding? After many years of working with sub-contractors, I'm employing my first (non-family) staff member to work in my small business. I spent this morning working through how to report PAYG and superannuation, but I'm left feeling horrified and powerless at how proprietary this whole process is - needing both proprietary Single Touch Payroll (STP) software and the proprietary MyGovID app, with seemingly no alternative. Problem 1: Single Touch Payroll software is all proprietary. A few years back the Australian Government mandated that all businesses must begin using Single Touch Payroll (STP) software to report PAYG tax witholding. You used to be able to report on paper, but it appears that that's no longer allowed. So you need some STP software. It's all proprietary unfortunately. I have pondered putting in an LA grant application to write a FOSS STP tool, but that doesn't help me right now. The least-worst option I've found is a Java-based tool called "Free Accounting Software", that provides Linux support. Problem 2: You need the proprietary MyGovID app - only available from Google or Apple app stores. The above STP software needs a "Machine Credential file", which is a digital key used to communicate with the Tax Office. To get a machine credential, you first need the proprietary MyGovID mobile app. To get MyGovID you need a Google or Apple account which I don't have, by personal choice. Then when you get the MyGovID app, there's some sort of scary "photograph your identity documents" dance to complete. Even putting the proprietary software and security/privacy issues aside, I can't quite believe that every small business in Australia has managed to deal with the complexity of this whole process. What are the alternatives? Not employing people? Forcing everyone to be sub-contractors? (also problematic) Not running a business at all? I'm hoping there's some secret loophole where I can just fill in a paper form and be done with it, which I what I did while employing my wife some years back before STP. I'd love to hear about your experience. Did you just end up using the proprietary software? (no judgement) (If this rings a bell, I did get a bit upset a few years back about changes requiring a MyGovID to submit business activity statements and use the Superannuation Clearing House, but it turned out that sole-traders like myself could still access these services via my.gov.au without MyGovID. See: https://stumbles.id.au/mygovid-ethical-privacy-and-security-problems-for-ato-business-portal.html) Regards, Ben From frase at frase.id.au Thu Jun 8 23:52:37 2023 From: frase at frase.id.au (Fraser Tweedale) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 23:52:37 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Employing staff/Single Touch Payroll/MyGovID - help! In-Reply-To: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> References: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> Message-ID: <27e97310-3662-4ec7-b0aa-672f27f9b30a@app.fastmail.com> w.r.t. Problem 2, I can tell you that my FOI request for MyGovID source code was refused based on "Commercially Valuable Information" exemption, and the decision was affirmed (with narrower reasons) on internal review. My view (IANAL) is that their reasons are based in fact and valid. But my perception is - as is often the case with FOI requests - they first decide to refuse, then contrive a legal basis to do so. https://www.righttoknow.org.au/request/mygovid_source_code_and_technica It's a sorry state of affairs. Fortunately I do not need MyGovID (yet). But I filed the request in response to your previous blog post about this problem, Ben. Sadly the result was contrary to the public interest. Cheers, Fraser On Thu, Jun 8, 2023, at 9:11 PM, Ben Sturmfels via linux-aus wrote: > Hi folks, > > Do anyone run a small business and have experience employing staff and > dealing with PAYG tax witholding? > > After many years of working with sub-contractors, I'm employing my first > (non-family) staff member to work in my small business. I spent this > morning working through how to report PAYG and superannuation, but I'm > left feeling horrified and powerless at how proprietary this whole > process is - needing both proprietary Single Touch Payroll (STP) > software and the proprietary MyGovID app, with seemingly no alternative. > > > Problem 1: Single Touch Payroll software is all proprietary. > > A few years back the Australian Government mandated that all businesses > must begin using Single Touch Payroll (STP) software to report PAYG tax > witholding. You used to be able to report on paper, but it appears that > that's no longer allowed. So you need some STP software. It's all > proprietary unfortunately. I have pondered putting in an LA grant > application to write a FOSS STP tool, but that doesn't help me right > now. The least-worst option I've found is a Java-based tool called "Free > Accounting Software", that provides Linux support. > > > Problem 2: You need the proprietary MyGovID app - only available > from Google or Apple app stores. > > The above STP software needs a "Machine Credential file", which is a > digital key used to communicate with the Tax Office. To get a machine > credential, you first need the proprietary MyGovID mobile app. To get > MyGovID you need a Google or Apple account which I don't have, by > personal choice. > > Then when you get the MyGovID app, there's some sort of scary > "photograph your identity documents" dance to complete. Even putting the > proprietary software and security/privacy issues aside, I can't quite > believe that every small business in Australia has managed to deal with > the complexity of this whole process. > > > What are the alternatives? Not employing people? Forcing everyone to be > sub-contractors? (also problematic) Not running a business at all? I'm > hoping there's some secret loophole where I can just fill in a paper > form and be done with it, which I what I did while employing my wife > some years back before STP. > > I'd love to hear about your experience. Did you just end up using the > proprietary software? (no judgement) > > (If this rings a bell, I did get a bit upset a few years back about > changes requiring a MyGovID to submit business activity statements and > use the Superannuation Clearing House, but it turned out that > sole-traders like myself could still access these services via my.gov.au > without MyGovID. See: > https://stumbles.id.au/mygovid-ethical-privacy-and-security-problems-for-ato-business-portal.html) > > Regards, > Ben > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From dwight at wwwalker.com.au Fri Jun 9 00:31:51 2023 From: dwight at wwwalker.com.au (Dwight Walker) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 00:31:51 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Employing staff/Single Touch Payroll/MyGovID - help! In-Reply-To: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> References: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> Message-ID: Try using: https://www.freeaccountingsoftware.com.au/ It has a Linux version. It has videos to setup the machine credential which requires use once of mygovid from Android to extract machine credential which is then used in this software. On Thu, June 8, 2023 21:11, Ben Sturmfels via linux-aus wrote: > Hi folks, > > Do anyone run a small business and have experience employing staff and > dealing with PAYG tax witholding? > > After many years of working with sub-contractors, I'm employing my first > (non-family) staff member to work in my small business. I spent this > morning working through how to report PAYG and superannuation, but I'm > left feeling horrified and powerless at how proprietary this whole > process is - needing both proprietary Single Touch Payroll (STP) > software and the proprietary MyGovID app, with seemingly no alternative. > > > Problem 1: Single Touch Payroll software is all proprietary. > > A few years back the Australian Government mandated that all businesses > must begin using Single Touch Payroll (STP) software to report PAYG tax > witholding. You used to be able to report on paper, but it appears that > that's no longer allowed. So you need some STP software. It's all > proprietary unfortunately. I have pondered putting in an LA grant > application to write a FOSS STP tool, but that doesn't help me right > now. The least-worst option I've found is a Java-based tool called "Free > Accounting Software", that provides Linux support. > > > Problem 2: You need the proprietary MyGovID app - only available > from Google or Apple app stores. > > The above STP software needs a "Machine Credential file", which is a > digital key used to communicate with the Tax Office. To get a machine > credential, you first need the proprietary MyGovID mobile app. To get > MyGovID you need a Google or Apple account which I don't have, by > personal choice. > > Then when you get the MyGovID app, there's some sort of scary > "photograph your identity documents" dance to complete. Even putting the > proprietary software and security/privacy issues aside, I can't quite > believe that every small business in Australia has managed to deal with > the complexity of this whole process. > > > What are the alternatives? Not employing people? Forcing everyone to be > sub-contractors? (also problematic) Not running a business at all? I'm > hoping there's some secret loophole where I can just fill in a paper > form and be done with it, which I what I did while employing my wife > some years back before STP. > > I'd love to hear about your experience. Did you just end up using the > proprietary software? (no judgement) > > (If this rings a bell, I did get a bit upset a few years back about > changes requiring a MyGovID to submit business activity statements and > use the Superannuation Clearing House, but it turned out that > sole-traders like myself could still access these services via my.gov.au > without MyGovID. See: > https://stumbles.id.au/mygovid-ethical-privacy-and-security-problems-for-ato-business-portal.html) > > Regards, > Ben > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development Pty Ltd https://wwwalker.com.au From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Fri Jun 9 07:43:19 2023 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 07:43:19 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations Message-ID: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> I'm after an SMTP relay service, ie something that accepts email via SMTP on some port other than 25, and relays it for me. The reason is my families email server is one I run myself from a server sitting a home on a NBN connection with a static IP, but I'm moving house and will lose access to a static IP for a year or so. The simplest thing seems to me to move my email server into a VPS, but it seems VPS's now near universally block outgoing connections to port 25 for new customers for understandable reasons. The VPS providers say you should use an SMTP relay service instead, and one even suggests a free one to use. But the suggested free one hasn't respond to my new account request. There are others I can try, but following the other Russell's example I thought I'd ask here first. -- Regards, Russell Stuart +61 438 805 133 From ianbrown78 at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 08:22:43 2023 From: ianbrown78 at gmail.com (Ian Brown) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 08:22:43 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: Hi Russell, I use BinaryLane for my VPS servers and there is an option to unblock SMTP. The servers are cheap enough as well, which is just an added bonus. Cheers, Ian On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 07:43, Russell Stuart via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > I'm after an SMTP relay service, ie something that accepts email via > SMTP on some port other than 25, and relays it for me. > > The reason is my families email server is one I run myself from a server > sitting a home on a NBN connection with a static IP, but I'm moving > house and will lose access to a static IP for a year or so. The > simplest thing seems to me to move my email server into a VPS, but it > seems VPS's now near universally block outgoing connections to port 25 > for new customers for understandable reasons. > > The VPS providers say you should use an SMTP relay service instead, and > one even suggests a free one to use. But the suggested free one hasn't > respond to my new account request. There are others I can try, but > following the other Russell's example I thought I'd ask here first. > > > -- > Regards, > Russell Stuart > +61 438 805 133 > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at petermoulding.com Fri Jun 9 08:40:07 2023 From: info at petermoulding.com (Info) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 07:25:07 +0845 Subject: [Linux-aus] Employing staff/Single Touch Payroll/MyGovID - help! In-Reply-To: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> References: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> Message-ID: Government Web sites are full of Javascript trackware. I send requests for privacy to government departments and our "representatives" in parliament but get few replies and only one site changed. The fact that politicians use those tools on their own sites for tracking us shows they neither care nor think about privacy. You could have a tough time ahead. Could we, as a group, make privacy or open source an issue for an election? That might get some government attention? Peter On 8/6/23 19:56, Ben Sturmfels via linux-aus wrote: > Hi folks, > > Do anyone run a small business and have experience employing staff and > dealing with PAYG tax witholding? > > After many years of working with sub-contractors, I'm employing my first > (non-family) staff member to work in my small business. I spent this > morning working through how to report PAYG and superannuation, but I'm > left feeling horrified and powerless at how proprietary this whole > process is - needing both proprietary Single Touch Payroll (STP) > software and the proprietary MyGovID app, with seemingly no alternative. > > > Problem 1: Single Touch Payroll software is all proprietary. > > A few years back the Australian Government mandated that all businesses > must begin using Single Touch Payroll (STP) software to report PAYG tax > witholding. You used to be able to report on paper, but it appears that > that's no longer allowed. So you need some STP software. It's all > proprietary unfortunately. I have pondered putting in an LA grant > application to write a FOSS STP tool, but that doesn't help me right > now. The least-worst option I've found is a Java-based tool called "Free > Accounting Software", that provides Linux support. > > > Problem 2: You need the proprietary MyGovID app - only available > from Google or Apple app stores. > > The above STP software needs a "Machine Credential file", which is a > digital key used to communicate with the Tax Office. To get a machine > credential, you first need the proprietary MyGovID mobile app. To get > MyGovID you need a Google or Apple account which I don't have, by > personal choice. > > Then when you get the MyGovID app, there's some sort of scary > "photograph your identity documents" dance to complete. Even putting the > proprietary software and security/privacy issues aside, I can't quite > believe that every small business in Australia has managed to deal with > the complexity of this whole process. > > > What are the alternatives? Not employing people? Forcing everyone to be > sub-contractors? (also problematic) Not running a business at all? I'm > hoping there's some secret loophole where I can just fill in a paper > form and be done with it, which I what I did while employing my wife > some years back before STP. > > I'd love to hear about your experience. Did you just end up using the > proprietary software? (no judgement) > > (If this rings a bell, I did get a bit upset a few years back about > changes requiring a MyGovID to submit business activity statements and > use the Superannuation Clearing House, but it turned out that > sole-traders like myself could still access these services via my.gov.au > without MyGovID. See: > https://stumbles.id.au/mygovid-ethical-privacy-and-security-problems-for-ato-business-portal.html) > > Regards, > Ben > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From lukeh at hovo.id.au Fri Jun 9 08:54:49 2023 From: lukeh at hovo.id.au (Luke Hovington) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 08:54:49 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: Hi Russell, AWS has options for setting up reverse dns entries and unblocking port 25, I have my email server setup and running. Besides the normal pain of trying to get the IP trusted by other email providers, it was fairly straight forward. Cheers Luke On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 08:23, Ian Brown via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Hi Russell, > > I use BinaryLane for my VPS servers and there is an option to unblock SMTP. > The servers are cheap enough as well, which is just an added bonus. > > Cheers, > Ian > > On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 07:43, Russell Stuart via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> I'm after an SMTP relay service, ie something that accepts email via >> SMTP on some port other than 25, and relays it for me. >> >> The reason is my families email server is one I run myself from a server >> sitting a home on a NBN connection with a static IP, but I'm moving >> house and will lose access to a static IP for a year or so. The >> simplest thing seems to me to move my email server into a VPS, but it >> seems VPS's now near universally block outgoing connections to port 25 >> for new customers for understandable reasons. >> >> The VPS providers say you should use an SMTP relay service instead, and >> one even suggests a free one to use. But the suggested free one hasn't >> respond to my new account request. There are others I can try, but >> following the other Russell's example I thought I'd ask here first. >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Russell Stuart >> +61 438 805 133 >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Fri Jun 9 11:10:29 2023 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:10:29 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <20230609111029.5883e5d6@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > AWS has options for setting up reverse dns entries and unblocking port 25, > I have my email server setup and running. Besides the normal pain of trying > to get the IP trusted by other email providers, it was fairly straight > forward. I did the same thing. Originally I used Linode with port 25 unblocked, but then because latency was so high to the US, I moved to an Amazon EC2 hosted in Sydney and got port 25 unblocked there (later Linode set up shop in Australia so they are probably worth trying again). Amazon also provide a relay in the form of SES which has the benefit that they work on getting the IPs whitelisted, but also the downside that it appeals to a lot of spammers and they can't stamp them out quickly enough, so equally as many admins block Amazon's IPs too. Like Luke said, the hardest part with running your own SMTP server is getting the IP trusted. I had to create a separate account with Microsoft to log in to their portal that doesn't appear to have been updated since the 90s in order to apply to get my IP whitelisted, and other providers have similar hoops to jump through. Google doesn't, so my e-mails to GMail addresses still often end up in recipient's junk folders, even when I reply to messages they sent me first. If I was starting from scratch I'd probably go down the relay path, but I'd probably find a provider that isn't the cheapest as I don't think the cheap ones will put too much effort into getting their IPs whitelisted anywhere. Hopefully the more expensive ones would. Cheers, Adam. From timo at trinks.net Fri Jun 9 11:28:18 2023 From: timo at trinks.net (Timo Trinks) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:28:18 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: Hi! In addition to IP whitelisting, what's also helped tremendously to improve mail server reputation (running mine as an OpenBSD/OpenSMTP combo) was to have DMARC, DKIM and SPF properly set up... Cheers, Timo On 09.06.2023 08:54, Luke Hovington via linux-aus wrote: >Hi Russell, > >AWS has options for setting up reverse dns entries and unblocking port 25, >I have my email server setup and running. Besides the normal pain of trying >to get the IP trusted by other email providers, it was fairly straight >forward. > >Cheers >Luke > >On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 08:23, Ian Brown via linux-aus < >linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> Hi Russell, >> >> I use BinaryLane for my VPS servers and there is an option to unblock SMTP. >> The servers are cheap enough as well, which is just an added bonus. >> >> Cheers, >> Ian >> >> On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 07:43, Russell Stuart via linux-aus < >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: >> >>> I'm after an SMTP relay service, ie something that accepts email via >>> SMTP on some port other than 25, and relays it for me. >>> >>> The reason is my families email server is one I run myself from a server >>> sitting a home on a NBN connection with a static IP, but I'm moving >>> house and will lose access to a static IP for a year or so. The >>> simplest thing seems to me to move my email server into a VPS, but it >>> seems VPS's now near universally block outgoing connections to port 25 >>> for new customers for understandable reasons. >>> >>> The VPS providers say you should use an SMTP relay service instead, and >>> one even suggests a free one to use. But the suggested free one hasn't >>> respond to my new account request. There are others I can try, but >>> following the other Russell's example I thought I'd ask here first. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Russell Stuart >>> +61 438 805 133 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Fri Jun 9 11:36:27 2023 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 21:36:27 -0400 Subject: [Linux-aus] Employing staff/Single Touch Payroll/MyGovID - help! In-Reply-To: References: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> Message-ID: On 6/8/2023 6:40 PM, Info via linux-aus wrote: > Government Web sites are full of Javascript trackware. I send requests > for privacy to government departments and our "representatives" in > parliament but get few replies and only one site changed. The fact > that politicians use those tools on their own sites for tracking us > shows they neither care nor think about privacy. You could have a > tough time ahead. > > Could we, as a group, make privacy or open source an issue for an > election? That might get some government attention? I'm sure you could, but it's an issue that seems to confuse many voters; to be perfectly honest, the long game would be to "infiltrate" all of the major political parties (ALP, LNP, and probably the Greens) and ensure that the voice is heard from within somehow. Unless someone can buy enough media/coverage (i.e. buy votes) to persuade the parties from outside of their inner structure, this - I think - should be one significant goal. Then again, once one is in one of the main parties - especially one of the groupings likely to be able to form Government (currently the ALP or LNP -- but I wouldn't be surprised one day if that changes to ALP or Greens...but never write off the LNP until they truly fade away) - one finds that there's a whole plethora of issues in running countries and politics, and maybe fixing proprietary software *in and of itself* isn't necessarily the best high priority ALTHOUGH it is, of course, an admirable one. Anyway, My 2c. From ben at stumbles.id.au Fri Jun 9 13:44:01 2023 From: ben at stumbles.id.au (Ben Sturmfels) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 03:44:01 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Employing staff/Single Touch Payroll/MyGovID - help! In-Reply-To: <27e97310-3662-4ec7-b0aa-672f27f9b30a@app.fastmail.com> References: <87a5xa9lg4.fsf@stumbles.id.au> <27e97310-3662-4ec7-b0aa-672f27f9b30a@app.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <715e939f-8b4e-9d27-caa7-1d52c8cfea09@stumbles.id.au> Thanks Fraser, I'm really grateful for your efforts on this front! On 8/6/23 13:52, Fraser Tweedale wrote: > w.r.t. Problem 2, I can tell you that my FOI request for MyGovID source code was > refused based on "Commercially Valuable Information" exemption, and the decision > was affirmed (with narrower reasons) on internal review. My view (IANAL) is that > their reasons are based in fact and valid. But my perception is - as is often the case > with FOI requests - they first decide to refuse, then contrive a legal basis to do so. > > https://www.righttoknow.org.au/request/mygovid_source_code_and_technica > > It's a sorry state of affairs. Fortunately I do not need MyGovID (yet). But I filed the > request in response to your previous blog post about this problem, Ben. Sadly > the result was contrary to the public interest. > > Cheers, > Fraser > > On Thu, Jun 8, 2023, at 9:11 PM, Ben Sturmfels via linux-aus wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> Do anyone run a small business and have experience employing staff and >> dealing with PAYG tax witholding? >> >> After many years of working with sub-contractors, I'm employing my first >> (non-family) staff member to work in my small business. I spent this >> morning working through how to report PAYG and superannuation, but I'm >> left feeling horrified and powerless at how proprietary this whole >> process is - needing both proprietary Single Touch Payroll (STP) >> software and the proprietary MyGovID app, with seemingly no alternative. >> >> >> Problem 1: Single Touch Payroll software is all proprietary. >> >> A few years back the Australian Government mandated that all businesses >> must begin using Single Touch Payroll (STP) software to report PAYG tax >> witholding. You used to be able to report on paper, but it appears that >> that's no longer allowed. So you need some STP software. It's all >> proprietary unfortunately. I have pondered putting in an LA grant >> application to write a FOSS STP tool, but that doesn't help me right >> now. The least-worst option I've found is a Java-based tool called "Free >> Accounting Software", that provides Linux support. >> >> >> Problem 2: You need the proprietary MyGovID app - only available >> from Google or Apple app stores. >> >> The above STP software needs a "Machine Credential file", which is a >> digital key used to communicate with the Tax Office. To get a machine >> credential, you first need the proprietary MyGovID mobile app. To get >> MyGovID you need a Google or Apple account which I don't have, by >> personal choice. >> >> Then when you get the MyGovID app, there's some sort of scary >> "photograph your identity documents" dance to complete. Even putting the >> proprietary software and security/privacy issues aside, I can't quite >> believe that every small business in Australia has managed to deal with >> the complexity of this whole process. >> >> >> What are the alternatives? Not employing people? Forcing everyone to be >> sub-contractors? (also problematic) Not running a business at all? I'm >> hoping there's some secret loophole where I can just fill in a paper >> form and be done with it, which I what I did while employing my wife >> some years back before STP. >> >> I'd love to hear about your experience. Did you just end up using the >> proprietary software? (no judgement) >> >> (If this rings a bell, I did get a bit upset a few years back about >> changes requiring a MyGovID to submit business activity statements and >> use the Superannuation Clearing House, but it turned out that >> sole-traders like myself could still access these services via my.gov.au >> without MyGovID. See: >> https://stumbles.id.au/mygovid-ethical-privacy-and-security-problems-for-ato-business-portal.html) >> >> Regards, >> Ben >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From simon at darkmere.gen.nz Fri Jun 9 15:33:51 2023 From: simon at darkmere.gen.nz (Simon Lyall) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 17:33:51 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Russell Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > I'm after an SMTP relay service, ie something that accepts email via SMTP on > some port other than 25, and relays it for me. Unfortunately this service barely exits these days. Most companies will be targeting the $20/month small-business crowd. They usually have a free account below that level but it feels risky to use that. Example: https://www.brevo.com/pricing/ https://www.mailersend.com/pricing Another option is to go with a paid mailbox provider like fastmail. Most of these "personal mail" providers will also allow you to send mail via authenticated SMTP. Another option is Amazon SES, cheap and reasonable delivery. The only provider I'm aware of that is roughly what you want is: https://mxroute.com/ But I've not actually used them. -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar From lists at ebourne.me.uk Fri Jun 9 18:07:00 2023 From: lists at ebourne.me.uk (lists at ebourne.me.uk) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2023 17:37:00 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: Hi Russell, I run my postfix on Linode. They are lot more savvy and flexible than many other VPS providers, and have a range of locations to choose from for latency. Despite having DMARC/SPF set up the problem is still one of server reputation. Companies and organisations using Microsoft's hosted email which is backed by outlook.com are a real problem. Despite trying to jump through the Microsoft white listing process I've had no luck with it. For outlook.com I eventually gave up and put that through an SMTP relay service which has helped (using smtpd_sender_restrictions with check_recipient_mx_access). I use sendgrid.com which for my level of traffic is free, and has worked. In recent months gmail has started putting my emails in spam, even for people I regularly communicate with, and even if I reply to their emails. Gmail's spam filtering is clearly not very good. I might have to switch gmail destinations to route through sendgrid.net as well. Regards, Martin On Fri, Jun 9 2023 at 07:43:19 +1000, Russell Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > I'm after an SMTP relay service, ie something that accepts email via > SMTP on some port other than 25, and relays it for me. > > The reason is my families email server is one I run myself from a > server sitting a home on a NBN connection with a static IP, but I'm > moving house and will lose access to a static IP for a year or so. > The simplest thing seems to me to move my email server into a VPS, > but it seems VPS's now near universally block outgoing connections to > port 25 for new customers for understandable reasons. > > The VPS providers say you should use an SMTP relay service instead, > and one even suggests a free one to use. But the suggested free one > hasn't respond to my new account request. There are others I can > try, but following the other Russell's example I thought I'd ask here > first. > > > -- > Regards, > Russell Stuart > +61 438 805 133 > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 12 21:58:53 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 21:58:53 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] SMTP Server recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <27967e57-b142-db3f-c011-c7908f76e364@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <6906334.tWeucmBOSa@xev> On Friday, 9 June 2023 08:54:49 AEST Luke Hovington via linux-aus wrote: > AWS has options for setting up reverse dns entries and unblocking port 25, > I have my email server setup and running. Besides the normal pain of trying > to get the IP trusted by other email providers, it was fairly straight > forward. There are lots of options if you want to go for the regular cloud hosting companies. https://etbe.coker.com.au/2021/09/07/oracle-cloud-free-tier/ I blogged about using the Oracle Cloud free tier 2 years ago and I still have my ARM VM there running nicely. The default setup allows you to run 4 VMs in the free tier that each have one fast ARM core (similar speed to cores of desktop systems with DDR3 RAM) and 6G of RAM. You can run more cores and more RAM (the total allocation is 4 cores and 24G) but in that case they won't be started if paying customers are doing stuff. In the comments on that blog post there are links to a couple of sites showing free tier cloud providers. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 19 23:43:56 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 23:43:56 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps Message-ID: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> I recall that there was a lecture at an LCA some years ago about sandboxing many (most?) desktop apps. I don't recall if it was using Flatpak, Snap, Docker, or something else. I think that the aim was for version control which didn't interest me but I am now interested in such things for security. Google searches haven't turned up anything on it. Youtube searches have turned up a dozen interesting talks about various container issues but only from the last ~4 years and I recall there was a good one earlier than that. Anyone remember anything like that? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From andrewreds at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 00:25:17 2023 From: andrewreds at gmail.com (Andrew Reimers) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 00:25:17 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps In-Reply-To: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> References: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> Message-ID: Have you looked into QubesOS? (https://www.qubes-os.org/) It uses VMs to isolate different desktop applications. And has a security model that doesn't outright suck. We did a couple of LCA talks on what it is and why people should use it. I guess it's biggest disadvantages are: - It can be a bit of a memory hog. (Especially if you start launching 4x copies of firefox in different networking contexts) - Applications can't access the GPU, and must be fully software rendered I've used it as my OS for the last ~ 5-7 years. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Thanks, Andrew On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 23:44, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > I recall that there was a lecture at an LCA some years ago about > sandboxing > many (most?) desktop apps. I don't recall if it was using Flatpak, Snap, > Docker, or something else. I think that the aim was for version control > which > didn't interest me but I am now interested in such things for security. > Google searches haven't turned up anything on it. Youtube searches have > turned up a dozen interesting talks about various container issues but > only > from the last ~4 years and I recall there was a good one earlier than that. > > Anyone remember anything like that? > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jun 20 10:44:33 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 10:44:33 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps In-Reply-To: References: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> Message-ID: <24031380.5W6oEpyPa8@xev> On Tuesday, 20 June 2023 00:25:17 AEST Andrew Reimers via linux-aus wrote: > Have you looked into QubesOS? (https://www.qubes-os.org/) > > It uses VMs to isolate different desktop applications. And has a security > model that doesn't outright suck. > > We did a couple of LCA talks on what it is and why people should use it. > > I guess it's biggest disadvantages are: > > - It can be a bit of a memory hog. (Especially if you start launching 4x > copies of firefox in different networking contexts) > - Applications can't access the GPU, and must be fully software rendered Thanks for the information, I had heard of Qubes before, I wasn't aware of the GPU issue but I was aware of the memory issue. The scenario I'm most interested in at this time is mobile phones where memory is limited and CPUs are somewhat slow and also less energy efficient for rendering type tasks than the GPU. So Qubes probably won't fit, and even Snap probably won't work. But something along similar lines could. Qubes definitely solves some problems quite well. I've added some Qubes videos to my watch list, not to use Qubes but to see how you dealt with some of the technical challenges and work out other ways of achieving comparable results. Also for Qubes have you tried to address the issue of multiple types of data on the same device, EG company and personal data? Something similar in concept to Samsung's Knox. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From trent at lloyd.id.au Tue Jun 20 11:47:41 2023 From: trent at lloyd.id.au (Trent Lloyd) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 09:47:41 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps In-Reply-To: <24031380.5W6oEpyPa8@xev> References: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> <24031380.5W6oEpyPa8@xev> Message-ID: <9DDC5862-3C51-42D7-B80D-B50B2B766FA4@lloyd.id.au> Russell, > On 20 Jun 2023, at 8:44 am, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > On Tuesday, 20 June 2023 00:25:17 AEST Andrew Reimers via linux-aus wrote: >> Have you looked into QubesOS? (https://www.qubes-os.org/) >> >> It uses VMs to isolate different desktop applications. And has a security >> model that doesn't outright suck. >> >> We did a couple of LCA talks on what it is and why people should use it. >> >> I guess it's biggest disadvantages are: >> >> - It can be a bit of a memory hog. (Especially if you start launching 4x >> copies of firefox in different networking contexts) >> - Applications can't access the GPU, and must be fully software rendered > > Thanks for the information, I had heard of Qubes before, I wasn't aware of the > GPU issue but I was aware of the memory issue. > > The scenario I'm most interested in at this time is mobile phones where memory > is limited and CPUs are somewhat slow and also less energy efficient for > rendering type tasks than the GPU. So Qubes probably won't fit, and even Snap > probably won't work. But something along similar lines could. > > Qubes definitely solves some problems quite well. > > I've added some Qubes videos to my watch list, not to use Qubes but to see how > you dealt with some of the technical challenges and work out other ways of > achieving comparable results. > > Also for Qubes have you tried to address the issue of multiple types of data > on the same device, EG company and personal data? Something similar in > concept to Samsung's Knox. I recently read this article: https://privsec.dev/posts/linux/desktop-linux-hardening Various interesting bits but in particular it linked me to a couple of AppArmor profile repositories trying to contain much more of, or, the entire system including systemd etc that I hadn?t previously heard of. They may be of interest. By default Ubuntu only applies AppArmor profiles to various specific bits of software and not too many of them (excepts snaps; which uses AppArmor for much of it's isolation work): https://github.com/Kicksecure/apparmor-profile-everything https://github.com/krathalan/apparmor-profiles According to another article (it seems to have been a popular topic lately) ChromeOS apparently is also sandboxing everything including the system processes, and you may find some inspiration there. I got that from this article: https://bjornpagen.com/en_US/desktop%20linux%20is%20insecure There?s also a few interesting tidbits in the hacker news comments of both articles. Though not a complete solution, I hope that maybe gives you some interesting reference material to build from. Cheers, Trent https://fosstodon.org/@lathiat From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jun 20 15:15:37 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 15:15:37 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps In-Reply-To: References: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> Message-ID: <5785059.24cOQSKZR9@xev> On Tuesday, 20 June 2023 00:25:17 AEST Andrew Reimers via linux-aus wrote: > We did a couple of LCA talks on what it is and why people should use it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3chZTdBgRSE I haven't finished watching this but I've already got enough value to make it worth mentioning. It shows Qubes asking the user for permissions for data transfer between VMs and for access to specific types of hardware. The hardware access part is something we need in phones right now. I don't know whether it's worth trying to copy some of this code to other situations such as a container based sandbox situation on a resource constrained phone, but the concepts are definitely worth copying. This video has given me ideas for things I hadn't previously considered. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From james at jamesh.id.au Tue Jun 20 20:43:04 2023 From: james at jamesh.id.au (James Henstridge) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 18:43:04 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps In-Reply-To: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> References: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 21:44, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > I recall that there was a lecture at an LCA some years ago about sandboxing > many (most?) desktop apps. I don't recall if it was using Flatpak, Snap, > Docker, or something else. I think that the aim was for version control which > didn't interest me but I am now interested in such things for security. > Google searches haven't turned up anything on it. Youtube searches have > turned up a dozen interesting talks about various container issues but only > from the last ~4 years and I recall there was a good one earlier than that. > > Anyone remember anything like that? Could it be "Package managers all the way down" from 2017? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ua5aeKKDzU It's more about the speaker's journey from traditional packaging systems to the bundled dependencies approach taken by container and sandbox based packaging systems. James. From simon at darkmere.gen.nz Wed Jun 21 20:42:02 2023 From: simon at darkmere.gen.nz (Simon Lyall) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 22:42:02 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [Linux-aus] LCA Lecture about sandboxing desktop apps In-Reply-To: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> References: <1767842.VLH7GnMWUR@cupcakke> Message-ID: <43218068-65e8-4e59-703e-94f6fd15236d@darkmere.gen.nz> Possibly: Containers aka crazy user space fun by Jess Frazelle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mzbIOtcIaQ On Mon, 19 Jun 2023, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > I recall that there was a lecture at an LCA some years ago about sandboxing > many (most?) desktop apps. I don't recall if it was using Flatpak, Snap, > Docker, or something else. I think that the aim was for version control which > didn't interest me but I am now interested in such things for security. > Google searches haven't turned up anything on it. Youtube searches have > turned up a dozen interesting talks about various container issues but only > from the last ~4 years and I recall there was a good one earlier than that. > > Anyone remember anything like that? -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 26 12:33:54 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:54 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops Message-ID: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/783814 These look like good deals, laptops with 8G of RAM for $200 or less. 8G isn't good for Windows but is great for Linux, my personal laptop has 8G of RAM and works very nicely. Some of those laptops have USB-C which allows connecting to a dock to easily run with a big monitor (or multiple monitors) and the full range of desktop peripherals. A USB-C dock with Ethernet, HDMI, and multiple USB ports starts at about $25 on ebay. But if you want to run an older laptop that way you need to check the specs carefully, there were some laptops released with USB-C that didn't have Displayport/HDMI/Thunderbolt functionality in that port. I haven't checked the specs carefully on those laptops, just briefly skimmed them to determine that some have USB-C and some don't. Also these prices while deemed a bargain by the ozbargain people probably aren't that far outside the general price range. If you want something similar but slightly different you can probably find it on ebay or amazon. https://etbe.coker.com.au/2023/06/01/desktop-computers-sense/ As an aside I think that nowadays for most people desktop computers don't make sense. Unless you do serious 3d gaming a laptop can probably do everything you need to do. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From tfeccles at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 13:20:52 2023 From: tfeccles at gmail.com (Colin Fee) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 13:20:52 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 12:34, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/783814 > > These look like good deals, laptops with 8G of RAM for $200 or less. 8G > isn't > good for Windows but is great for Linux, my personal laptop has 8G of RAM > and > works very nicely. > > Some of those laptops have USB-C which allows connecting to a dock to > easily > run with a big monitor (or multiple monitors) and the full range of > desktop > peripherals. A USB-C dock with Ethernet, HDMI, and multiple USB ports > starts > at about $25 on ebay. But if you want to run an older laptop that way you > need to check the specs carefully, there were some laptops released with > USB-C > that didn't have Displayport/HDMI/Thunderbolt functionality in that port. > I > haven't checked the specs carefully on those laptops, just briefly skimmed > them to determine that some have USB-C and some don't. > > Some laptops, while they have Displayport/HDMI/Thunderbolt in the port, can only drive monitors at higher resolutions by connecting directly to the laptop port i.e the higher res and refresh rates won't pass through the dock. -- Colin Fee tfeccles at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steven.ellis at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 14:59:27 2023 From: steven.ellis at gmail.com (Steven Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:59:27 +1200 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 2:34?PM Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/783814 > > These look like good deals, laptops with 8G of RAM for $200 or less. 8G > isn't > good for Windows but is great for Linux, my personal laptop has 8G of RAM > and > works very nicely. > > > I suppose it depends on your usage, but I wouldn't touch anything below 16GB for personal and 32GB for work these days. My web browser alone uses 16 GB on a regular basis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Mon Jun 26 15:34:07 2023 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:34:07 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: On 26/6/23 14:59, Steven Ellis via linux-aus wrote: > I suppose it depends on your usage, but I wouldn't touch anything > below 16GB for personal and 32GB for work these days. My web browser > alone uses 16 GB on a regular basis. On my laptop I run a browser, vscode, SQL DB's, web servers and the other usual stuff that I forget. $ free -h total used free shared buff/cache available Mem: 15Gi 7.5Gi 1.3Gi 459Mi 6.6Gi 7.1Gi Swap: 15Gi 0B 15Gi As you say it depends on what you are doing. 8GB would be fine for me on typical days. Occasionally I run a Windows VM and then 16GB isn't enough without swap. With swap I get by. If you aren't spilling over into swap very occasionally, I'd say you've spent too much on memory and using too much battery. From bob.hepple at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 17:09:00 2023 From: bob.hepple at gmail.com (Bob Hepple) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 17:09:00 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: 8Gb is ample for me - fedora-38/sway/firefox (24 tabs presently): $ free -h total used free shared buff/cache available Mem: 7.6Gi 5.3Gi 200Mi 740Mi 2.2Gi 1.3Gi Swap: 7.6Gi 1.8Gi 5.8Gi $ sudo ps_mem: ... 43.1 MiB + 618.5 KiB = 43.7 MiB pipewire-pulse 44.7 MiB + 37.5 KiB = 44.7 MiB nordvpnd 22.9 MiB + 25.5 MiB = 48.4 MiB sway 45.0 MiB + 9.9 MiB = 54.9 MiB keepassxc 70.3 MiB + 4.8 MiB = 75.1 MiB syncthing (2) 59.0 MiB + 18.3 MiB = 77.3 MiB com.github.johnfactotum.Foliate 79.9 MiB + 17.2 MiB = 97.1 MiB WebKitWebProcess 181.0 MiB + 9.7 MiB = 190.7 MiB mythfrontend 218.8 MiB + 5.0 MiB = 223.9 MiB emacs-29.0.91 186.3 MiB + 43.0 MiB = 229.4 MiB rclone (12) 3.3 GiB + 162.2 MiB = 3.5 GiB firefox (33) --------------------------------- 4.9 GiB ================================= I don't even notice the swapping. No VM's, mind. On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 15:34, Russell Stuart via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > On 26/6/23 14:59, Steven Ellis via linux-aus wrote: > > I suppose it depends on your usage, but I wouldn't touch anything > > below 16GB for personal and 32GB for work these days. My web browser > > alone uses 16 GB on a regular basis. > > On my laptop I run a browser, vscode, SQL DB's, web servers and the > other usual stuff that I forget. > > $ free -h > total used free shared > buff/cache available > Mem: 15Gi 7.5Gi 1.3Gi 459Mi > 6.6Gi 7.1Gi > Swap: 15Gi 0B 15Gi > > As you say it depends on what you are doing. 8GB would be fine for me > on typical days. Occasionally I run a Windows VM and then 16GB isn't > enough without swap. With swap I get by. > > If you aren't spilling over into swap very occasionally, I'd say you've > spent too much on memory and using too much battery. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neil at brown.name Mon Jun 26 18:03:19 2023 From: neil at brown.name (NeilBrown) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 18:03:19 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: <168776659997.12120.5762650639690270149@noble.neil.brown.name> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, russell at coker.com.au wrote: > > As an aside I think that nowadays for most people desktop computers don't make > sense. Unless you do serious 3d gaming a laptop can probably do everything > you need to do. > That's a rather ... strange comment. I insist on a fanless laptop, so performance isn't amazing, but is adequate for many things. Doing a full compile of the Linux kernel is not one of them. It takes MUCH longer on my laptop than on my desktop (which also has 4 times as many monitors as my laptop). I think we are lots of individuals with lots of different use cases, and fortunately the set of available hardware has many different configurations, allowing us all to be reasonably satisfied. NeilBrown From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jun 26 22:54:35 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 22:54:35 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <168776659997.12120.5762650639690270149@noble.neil.brown.name> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <168776659997.12120.5762650639690270149@noble.neil.brown.name> Message-ID: <3342138.FMhQkTaH9n@xev> On Monday, 26 June 2023 18:03:19 AEST NeilBrown via linux-aus wrote: > > As an aside I think that nowadays for most people desktop computers don't > > make sense. Unless you do serious 3d gaming a laptop can probably do > > everything you need to do. > > That's a rather ... strange comment. It's a rather logical comment. For evidence look at all the companies that have most people using laptops. Look at the prices of desktops vs laptops for systems that work for most people, they are very similar before you buy a monitor. > I insist on a fanless laptop, so performance isn't amazing, but is > adequate for many things. Doing a full compile of the Linux kernel is > not one of them. It takes MUCH longer on my laptop than on my desktop > (which also has 4 times as many monitors as my laptop). That's what servers are for. https://etbe.coker.com.au/2023/06/01/desktop-computers-sense/ In my blog post that I gave the URL for previously I wrote "For people doing serious programming or other compute or IO intensive tasks some variation on the server theme is the best option". Compiling a kernel counts as a "serious programming" task. If you use a "desktop system" to compile things and ssh to it from your laptop then you really have a home server with a monitor. Even on this mailing list most people don't compile their own kernels, desktop environment, LibreOffice, etc. The only strange thing about this discussion is the number of people with unusual use cases that seem to think that my comment about "most people" applies to them. How many monitors do you need on a desktop anyway? I've had 2*FullHD and one 4K on a laptop and also had 2*4k without any problems. According to the specs of hardware I have access to I should be able to run at least 3*4k monitors in addition to the build-in FullHD display. But this is a long way from what most people would want to do, even on this list there's probably only a few percent of the people who want three monitors. I noted in my blog post that support for one 4K monitor in laptops apparently became common in 2012, I don't know if the majority of people who have external monitors for their laptops have even a single 4k monitor yet, there seems to be a lot of people happy with FullHD and 1440p and there's a heap of new fancy curved monitors with resolutions less than 4k. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jun 27 00:04:42 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 00:04:42 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Flounder meeting 1st July 13:00 Melbourne time 03:00 UTC Message-ID: <112527746.nniJfEyVGO@cupcakke> Below is the announcement of the July meeting. Yifei and I don't plan to give formal lectures about what we are doing, just chatting to everyone there and giving demos. For the container stuff there will be some things people can do on their own Linux PCs but that won't be required to learn about it. As this will include a status report of the work related to the grant it will be more interesting to Linux Australia people than most meetings. https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-jul-2023-pinephone-containers/ July event, a less formal event mostly focused around the PinePhonePro and Linux containers. Yifei and Russell have grants from Linux Australia to do development on PinePhonePro devices and this will be the first report on that. Topics to be covered are Debian and OpenBSD on the PinePhone and some experiments on containers working towards the goal of converging the functionality of phones and desktop PCs. Meeting will be at http://b.coker.com.au. No need to register just click on the link on the day. Meeting officially opens at 1PM Melbourne time (03:00UTC). -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From steven.ellis at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 07:27:27 2023 From: steven.ellis at gmail.com (Steven Ellis) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:27:27 +1200 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 5:34?PM Russell Stuart via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > On 26/6/23 14:59, Steven Ellis via linux-aus wrote: > > I suppose it depends on your usage, but I wouldn't touch anything > > below 16GB for personal and 32GB for work these days. My web browser > > alone uses 16 GB on a regular basis. > > On my laptop I run a browser, vscode, SQL DB's, web servers and the > other usual stuff that I forget. > > $ free -h > total used free shared > buff/cache available > Mem: 15Gi 7.5Gi 1.3Gi 459Mi > 6.6Gi 7.1Gi > Swap: 15Gi 0B 15Gi > > As you say it depends on what you are doing. 8GB would be fine for me > on typical days. Occasionally I run a Windows VM and then 16GB isn't > enough without swap. With swap I get by. > > If you aren't spilling over into swap very occasionally, I'd say you've > spent too much on memory and using too much battery. > free -h total used free shared buff/cache available Mem: 31Gi 18Gi 2.8Gi 7.3Gi 9Gi 4.7Gi Swap: 18Gi 8.2Gi 10Gi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steven.ellis at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 07:29:03 2023 From: steven.ellis at gmail.com (Steven Ellis) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:29:03 +1200 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 9:27?AM Steven Ellis wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 5:34?PM Russell Stuart via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> On 26/6/23 14:59, Steven Ellis via linux-aus wrote: >> > I suppose it depends on your usage, but I wouldn't touch anything >> > below 16GB for personal and 32GB for work these days. My web browser >> > alone uses 16 GB on a regular basis. >> >> On my laptop I run a browser, vscode, SQL DB's, web servers and the >> other usual stuff that I forget. >> >> $ free -h >> total used free shared >> buff/cache available >> Mem: 15Gi 7.5Gi 1.3Gi 459Mi >> 6.6Gi 7.1Gi >> Swap: 15Gi 0B 15Gi >> >> As you say it depends on what you are doing. 8GB would be fine for me >> on typical days. Occasionally I run a Windows VM and then 16GB isn't >> enough without swap. With swap I get by. >> >> If you aren't spilling over into swap very occasionally, I'd say you've >> spent too much on memory and using too much battery. >> > > free -h > total used free shared buff/cache > available > Mem: 31Gi 18Gi 2.8Gi 7.3Gi 9Gi > 4.7Gi > Swap: 18Gi 8.2Gi 10Gi > > > and from ps_mem 496.2 MiB + 135.4 MiB = 631.6 MiB gnome-shell 2.3 GiB + 133.7 MiB = 2.5 GiB chrome (27) 11.5 GiB + 297.3 MiB = 11.8 GiB firefox (60) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at clyne.com.au Tue Jun 27 09:16:12 2023 From: paul at clyne.com.au (Paul Clyne) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:16:12 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops Message-ID: <2bf4773f-dbf6-9cbf-f299-2dab539bd210@clyne.com.au> If you live in Maitland (NSW) and want a free laptop you should reach out to me. One of my hobbies is refurbishing machines (both laptops and desktops) and giving them back to the community for free. Technically that's not 100% true as I ask you do two good deeds in your local community as payment.. They are OLDER machines (like 2/3rd gen i5's mostly) and won't win speed awards but better then nothing... I have been known to post them {for cost} within Australia... _if_ you want to see the list it's here. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NUS7DBp-IRxujntuRO5zueK-3kFc8EkW2nmmVvHQvao/edit?usp=sharing From neil at brown.name Wed Jun 28 09:43:29 2023 From: neil at brown.name (NeilBrown) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:43:29 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <3342138.FMhQkTaH9n@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev>, <168776659997.12120.5762650639690270149@noble.neil.brown.name>, <3342138.FMhQkTaH9n@xev> Message-ID: <168790940905.9283.6164183465846058985@noble.neil.brown.name> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, russell at coker.com.au wrote: > > Even on this mailing list most people don't compile their own kernels, desktop > environment, LibreOffice, etc. The only strange thing about this discussion > is the number of people with unusual use cases that seem to think that my > comment about "most people" applies to them. I think my response to your post was in part because your comment seemed rather presumptuous. I genuinely don't know what "most" people need, and I doubt you or anyone else really does. Is certainly don't think that "what many businesses impose on their employees" is a good metric for "what those employees need". I'm very happy to hear about your experiences of how current technology meets your needs, possibly in new and different ways to earlier technology. The stuff you mentioned a while ago about convergence was certainly interesting. After you can reasonably be expected to be well informed about your own needs and experiences. But sweeping generalisation about "most people" tend to annoy me. They are rarely based on fact (though maybe that is a sweeping generalisation on my part ... maybe I should say that generalisations about "most people" are, in my experience, rarely accompanied by references to data sources). Thanks, NeilBrown From russell at coker.com.au Wed Jun 28 11:42:51 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 11:42:51 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <168790940905.9283.6164183465846058985@noble.neil.brown.name> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <3342138.FMhQkTaH9n@xev> <168790940905.9283.6164183465846058985@noble.neil.brown.name> Message-ID: <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> On Wednesday, 28 June 2023 09:43:29 AEST NeilBrown via linux-aus wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, russell at coker.com.au wrote: > > Even on this mailing list most people don't compile their own kernels, > > desktop environment, LibreOffice, etc. The only strange thing about this > > discussion is the number of people with unusual use cases that seem to > > think that my comment about "most people" applies to them. > > I think my response to your post was in part because your comment seemed > rather presumptuous. I genuinely don't know what "most" people need, > and I doubt you or anyone else really does. Is certainly don't think > that "what many businesses impose on their employees" is a good metric > for "what those employees need". I don't think I'm at all presumptuous in thinking that I have a good rough idea of what most people need. I'm involved in a lot of discussions among Linux users and even in the more technical places like r/homelab it's rare to see people compiling their own kernel. I agree that many businesses impose silly things on their employees, but working in a corporate IT department I see the reasons why some things that seem silly aren't and also why some things users ask for aren't good solutions. EG users ask for fast laptops to compile when low end laptops and build servers would be better. High end laptops (in the "reliable workstation" category) have 16 cores and 64G of RAM while low end servers have 32 cores and 256G of RAM. > I'm very happy to hear about your experiences of how current technology > meets your needs, possibly in new and different ways to earlier > technology. The stuff you mentioned a while ago about convergence was > certainly interesting. After you can reasonably be expected to be well > informed about your own needs and experiences. The current phone technology doesn't yet meet my needs for convergence. It's disappointing that phones with 2012 laptop levels of CPU performance and RAM don't have 2012 laptop levels of video output. But things keep improving. > But sweeping generalisation about "most people" tend to annoy me. They > are rarely based on fact (though maybe that is a sweeping generalisation > on my part ... maybe I should say that generalisations about "most > people" are, in my experience, rarely accompanied by references to data > sources). You can get a rough idea of what people want to pay for by what companies are selling. Making laptops with 32G of RAM now is easier as a technology issue than laptops with 8G of RAM were 10 years ago, but most laptops don't have more than 16G so it seems clear that most people don't perceive a need for such RAM that makes them pay for it. I'm personally mystified as to why someone would want a Windows system with 4G of RAM, but the fact that they are sold and presumably don't have lots of returns suggests that people are happy with it. There used to be some jokes of the form "Amigas are used for games, Windows computers are used for wordprocessing, and Linux computers are used for compiling kernels". But that was more than 20 years ago. If we exclude the majority of Linux systems that are Android phones and routers then the majority of the remainder might soon be systems used mostly for web browsing and thin client computing. I wonder if the downturn in LUGs in recent years is partly due to most people having systems that just work and not having to do things like compile kernels. LUV is a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago, CLUG was inactive last I heard, and the SLUG web site seems to indicate that it hasn't had meetings since 2020. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Wed Jun 28 17:28:16 2023 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:28:16 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <3342138.FMhQkTaH9n@xev> <168790940905.9283.6164183465846058985@noble.neil.brown.name> <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> Message-ID: <20230628172816.010d4ddf@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > I don't think I'm at all presumptuous in thinking that I have a good rough > idea of what most people need. I'm involved in a lot of discussions among > Linux users and even in the more technical places like r/homelab it's rare to > see people compiling their own kernel. To be fair those are all very technical groups of people. Different groups will have different needs. As a random example I recently started using the excellent open source QGIS program for land management, and once you start loading in multi-gigabyte data sets for things like offline Google Maps satellite views, high resolution elevation/contour maps, or government property boundaries for a whole city, you quickly realise a fast disk, CPU and lots of memory are mandatory, even though you're not gaming or compiling a kernel. Likewise a lot of younger people today want to become YouTube stars, and if you ever see the type of set up that a successful content creator uses for producing their videos, it's not a low end laptop and often a full sized desktop. So I think there are still plenty of use cases for these 'workstation' users, which wouldn't necessarily work by having a cheap 'dumb terminal' and servers. I know myself when I do web development, the IDE will easily chew up 8 GB or more memory on its own, plus 2-3 GB per project for the NodeJS backend and React frontend. Once you factor in another 8-16 GB for Firefox (because you're using the Multi-Account Containers extension so you can log in to your production, staging and test accounts all at the same time), it's almost impossible to manage on a machine with only 16 GB of memory, unless you're lucky enough to work on only one small project at a time. Heaven forbid you have to have Zoom or Microsoft Teams open as well (or both in my employer's case). If anything it seems to be splitting into two extremes. You have the basic stuff at one end - simple office tasks and web browsing - and the more demanding stuff at the other end. The middle ground appears to be less useful now as it's overkill for one group of people and not powerful enough for the other. > You can get a rough idea of what people want to pay for by what companies are > selling. Where are you looking for this though? If you are looking in the junk mail in your physical letterbox or consumer electronics shops you will only see products targeted at the low end of the market, made from cheap parts that manufacturers can't extract much of a profit from any longer as the technology has been superseded at the higher end of the market. These products are aimed at people who can just about get away with doing everything on their phone already. If you go to Dell's website for example, they will happily sell you a massively overpowered workstation and so enough people must be buying them to make it worth their while to mass produce them. But they don't advertise that product range because that type of customer seeks them out instead - they already know what they need. > I wonder if the downturn in LUGs in recent years is partly due to most people > having systems that just work and not having to do things like compile > kernels. Having recently uploaded a whole bunch of scanned Brisbug magazines (Brisbane PC User's Group, from the 1990s) to archive.org [1], it reminded me how complicated it used to be to use a computer. I think you are absolutely right that computers now are easy enough that most people can figure it out on their own - or at least look it up online - without having to attend a user group for advice. Cheers, Adam. [1] If you're missing MS-DOS: https://archive.org/details/brisbug-significant-bits From stephen.hocking at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 18:36:36 2023 From: stephen.hocking at gmail.com (Stephen Hocking) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:36:36 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> Message-ID: I have a crapton of laptops. The 2 I use the most are a 13" Macbook Pro, which I specced out to the max on everything except the disk (32GB ram, i7, 2TB SSD) on the last of the Intel Mac laptops. The 2nd is a Acer Chromebook 514, an ARM based unit with 8 cores and 8GB of memory. It has the ability to run Android apps, plus a Linux subsystem, and is quite useful. A lot of scientific instruments are controlled via Android apps (my telescopes and microscope for example) and it's nice to be able to have a decent sized screen and keyboard for that. The other laptops range from el-cheapo laptops that were originally running home Windows (2G ram, 32G SSD) which I've dropped Linux on to make it useful, a GPD Pocket PC which has built in serial & ethernet, and fits in a pock, a GPD Pocket 3, which has a lot of useful plugins (HDMI capture, serial, ethernet), but as yet, doesn't do deep sleeping nicely under Linux, and few of the other GPD units On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 12:34, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/783814 > > These look like good deals, laptops with 8G of RAM for $200 or less. 8G > isn't > good for Windows but is great for Linux, my personal laptop has 8G of RAM > and > works very nicely. > > Some of those laptops have USB-C which allows connecting to a dock to > easily > run with a big monitor (or multiple monitors) and the full range of > desktop > peripherals. A USB-C dock with Ethernet, HDMI, and multiple USB ports > starts > at about $25 on ebay. But if you want to run an older laptop that way you > need to check the specs carefully, there were some laptops released with > USB-C > that didn't have Displayport/HDMI/Thunderbolt functionality in that port. > I > haven't checked the specs carefully on those laptops, just briefly skimmed > them to determine that some have USB-C and some don't. > > Also these prices while deemed a bargain by the ozbargain people probably > aren't that far outside the general price range. If you want something > similar but slightly different you can probably find it on ebay or amazon. > > https://etbe.coker.com.au/2023/06/01/desktop-computers-sense/ > > As an aside I think that nowadays for most people desktop computers don't > make > sense. Unless you do serious 3d gaming a laptop can probably do > everything > you need to do. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -- "I and the public know what all schoolchildren learn Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return" W.H. Auden, "September 1, 1939" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Wed Jun 28 22:13:22 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 22:13:22 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] cheap laptops In-Reply-To: <20230628172816.010d4ddf@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> <20230628172816.010d4ddf@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <12218344.3WhfQktd6Z@xev> On Wednesday, 28 June 2023 17:28:16 AEST Adam Nielsen via linux-aus wrote: > If anything it seems to be splitting into two extremes. You have the > basic stuff at one end - simple office tasks and web browsing - and the > more demanding stuff at the other end. The middle ground appears to be > less useful now as it's overkill for one group of people and not > powerful enough for the other. Why do you think that the "simple office tasks and web browsing" group is in the minority? That group covers all but one person (*) I know from outside the computer industry and most employees of every IT company with >12 employees I've worked for. (*) He has a high end gamer PC to play Minecraft. He is currently borrowing a laptop from me due to home renovations leaving no space for a full PC, that laptop gave about the same frame rate as his PC in his initial tests... > > I wonder if the downturn in LUGs in recent years is partly due to most > > people having systems that just work and not having to do things like > > compile kernels. > > Having recently uploaded a whole bunch of scanned Brisbug magazines > (Brisbane PC User's Group, from the 1990s) to archive.org [1], it > reminded me how complicated it used to be to use a computer. I think > you are absolutely right that computers now are easy enough that most > people can figure it out on their own - or at least look it up online - > without having to attend a user group for advice. Linux is easy enough that the people who have less demanding needs can figure most things out on their own (except printers, they still suck). If this is the cause of the decline of LUGs then it is evidence to suggest that the majority of Linux users have less demanding needs. Should we try to have less of an emphasis on computer science in LUGs if that's not what the users want? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From heracles1108 at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 09:54:45 2023 From: heracles1108 at gmail.com (Ashley) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:54:45 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] LUGs In-Reply-To: <12218344.3WhfQktd6Z@xev> References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> <20230628172816.010d4ddf@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> <12218344.3WhfQktd6Z@xev> Message-ID: On 28/06/2023 10:13 pm, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > Linux is easy enough that the people who have less demanding needs can figure > most things out on their own (except printers, they still suck). If this is > the cause of the decline of LUGs then it is evidence to suggest that the > majority of Linux users have less demanding needs. > > Should we try to have less of an emphasis on computer science in LUGs if > that's not what the users want? > I'm not sure about the other LUGs but I was a member of SLUG starting in the mid 90s. I think I started going to the meetings at the Sydney Institute of Technology in about 1996. It was here that I learned a great deal about Linux. My first successful install was in about '92 or '93 with Yggdrasil Linux and kernel 0.99. SLUG introduced me to the much friendlier desktop versions and taught me about such things as bash scripting and getting things working. We would have in depth discussions about the use of various programs such as the VIM and Emacs editors and, of course, other useful programs such as the GIMP, Mutt and Mozilla. Slug was a great place for normal users to meet and learn. Then in the later years from about 2014 or so it was taken over by the corporate users, sysadmins and such and moved completely away from its roots. Is it relevant to the average user today? Probably not as anyone who asks a question that indicates that they are not familiar with the kernel code and creating a VPN from scratch is treated as irrelevant and is usually either ignored or treated with disdain by most members these days. I used to really enjoy SLUG meetings and was really disappointed when the meeting changed from trying to upgrade the members' knowledge and skills to just showing their knowledge about corporate issues. Sorry about the rant but LUGs have moved away from general users to corporate computer engineering groups. Ashley From tfeccles at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 11:22:07 2023 From: tfeccles at gmail.com (Colin Fee) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 11:22:07 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] LUGs In-Reply-To: References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> <20230628172816.010d4ddf@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> <12218344.3WhfQktd6Z@xev> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 09:55, Ashley via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > On 28/06/2023 10:13 pm, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > > > Linux is easy enough that the people who have less demanding needs can > figure > > most things out on their own (except printers, they still suck). If > this is > > the cause of the decline of LUGs then it is evidence to suggest that the > > majority of Linux users have less demanding needs. > > > > Should we try to have less of an emphasis on computer science in LUGs if > > that's not what the users want? > > > I'm not sure about the other LUGs but I was a member of SLUG starting in > the mid 90s. I think I started going to the meetings at the Sydney > Institute of Technology in about 1996. It was here that I learned a > great deal about Linux. My first successful install was in about '92 or > '93 with Yggdrasil Linux and kernel 0.99. > > SLUG introduced me to the much friendlier desktop versions and taught me > about such things as bash scripting and getting things working. We would > have in depth discussions about the use of various programs such as the > VIM and Emacs editors and, of course, other useful programs such as the > GIMP, Mutt and Mozilla. > > I wonder how the maturation on Linux distros, certainly wrt the more popular distros, along with the proliferation of online help communities/forums etc has contributed to the downturn of in person LUGs? -- Colin Fee tfeccles at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simon at simotek.net Thu Jun 29 21:04:37 2023 From: simon at simotek.net (Simon Lees) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 20:34:37 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] LUGs In-Reply-To: References: <5692100.8vf5iQgoFF@xev> <3289680.esFFXGZ24q@xev> <20230628172816.010d4ddf@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> <12218344.3WhfQktd6Z@xev> Message-ID: On 6/29/23 10:52, Colin Fee via linux-aus wrote: > > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 09:55, Ashley via linux-aus > > wrote: > > > On 28/06/2023 10:13 pm, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > > > Linux is easy enough that the people who have less demanding > needs can figure > > most things out on their own (except printers, they still suck). > If this is > > the cause of the decline of LUGs then it is evidence to suggest > that the > > majority of Linux users have less demanding needs. > > > > Should we try to have less of an emphasis on computer science in > LUGs if > > that's not what the users want? > > > I'm not sure about the other LUGs but I was a member of SLUG > starting in > the mid 90s. I think I started going to the meetings at the Sydney > Institute of Technology in about 1996. It was here that I learned a > great deal about Linux. My first successful install was in about '92 or > '93 with Yggdrasil Linux and kernel 0.99. > > SLUG introduced me to the much friendlier desktop versions and > taught me > about such things as bash scripting and getting things working. We > would > have in depth discussions about the use of various programs such as the > VIM and Emacs editors and, of course, other useful programs such as the > GIMP, Mutt and Mozilla. > > > I wonder how the maturation on Linux distros, certainly wrt the more > popular distros, along with the proliferation of online help > communities/forums etc has contributed?to the downturn of in person LUGs? As someone who works on and provides support for community distro's i'm sure this plays a part. When I first installed Linux I still had a Dial Up connection and the only practical way was to buy a magazine with DVD's and it certainly wasn't the polished experience it can be today. Having said that I know that parts of the openSUSE community still occasionally run install fests in some parts of the world, but often these are in places where internet connections aren't ideal or where there can be language barriers. These days many people in the English speaking world tend to just jump on Discord, Matrix or one of our other platforms if they need any help. Cheers Simon From teacher at tutanota.com Mon Jun 5 23:59:15 2023 From: teacher at tutanota.com (teacher at tutanota.com) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 13:59:15 -0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] FOSS in education Message-ID: Hello everyone, I?m a digital learning manager* who moved toAustralia last year and I?m also a member of Free SoftwareAustralia. I?ve been using and advocating for the use of FOSS inEducation for a few years now and I?m willing to push it forwardalso here, down under. I?m actually looking for an internship (andlater for a position) in an organization / company / university /educational structure that would be able to take advantage of mycompetences and interest. Can you think of an institution I shouldreach out ? This isa video I posted a while back about this topic: https://video.tedomum.net/w/6dzVcJo6uDMVTAqfchobJ8 FOSSin the French public educational system is a thing impelled by thegovernment (after years of organizations lobby). I?m surprised I don?t even see discussions about itdown under. Maybe it's a topic to be discussed ? *Asa digital learning manager, I create, shoot, edit videos, designonline interactive modules and courses, provide pedagogical guidancein online education settings, manage learning management systems. I?mnot approved yet into this mailing list, so contact me directly ifneeded. Julien Danglard Digital learning manager / Professeur de fran?ais -- Tutanota respects your privacy and it's for free, try it ! https://tutanota.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: