From tony at bakeyournoodle.com Mon Feb 1 17:39:00 2016 From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 17:39:00 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Treasurers Report 2015 Message-ID: <20160201063855.GI72112@thor.bakeyournoodle.com> Hello everyone, Please find attached: 1. My Report Linux_Australia_2015_Treasurers_report.pdf 2. The Auditors Report LA2015-Audit-final.pdf 3. A summary P/L for the organisation as a whole Linux_Australia-Profit_Loss.pdf 3. A breakdown P/L for each operational area Linux_Australia-Profit_Loss_All_Areas.pdf I will of course be presenting this ate the AGM today. Yours Tony. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Linux_Australia_2015_Treasurers_report.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 221275 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucychili at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 12:49:21 2016 From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Reid) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 12:19:21 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: Redefine Engineering: Invitation to Link Festival 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thought this might be of interest? ====================== EWB respectfully acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Country on which we work. *Redefine Engineering with EWB Australia * Engineering - ?nd???n??r??/ noun - 'the action of working artfully to bring something about? At EWB Australia we are redefining engineering. We realised that to create real impact and lasting social change we need to break down the perceptions and cliches of our profession. That's why we created Link Festival. A collaboration between designers and doers, entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs, architects and engineers. Link Festival is for anyone interested in working towards social change. Engineering is about inspiration and agency, as well as skills. It's not just a profession it's about people. Come to Link Festival, help us redefine engineering and create a world of opportunity for all. *The Program* Check out speakers and times for both Melbourne (7-8 March) & Sydney (11 March) sessions. Speakers include Amina Horozic (fuse project) & Kyra Maya Phillips (the Misfit Economy) & Sally-Ann Williams (Google Australia). Check Out the Program http://www.linkfestival.com.au/program/melbourne/ Get Tickets http://www.ewb.org.au/explore/festival-registration/1 (Link Festival 2015 sold out.) *About Link Festival * Held for almost a decade as EWB Australia's Annual National Conference, Link Festival was developed when we realised that to create profound social change we must engage and collaborate with like minded professions, groups and people. Since 2013 Link Festival has been the manifestation of this and will continue as our flagship event in the future. Engineers WIthout Borders Australia PO Box 708 North Melbourne VIC 3051 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james at jamespurser.com.au Wed Feb 3 20:57:45 2016 From: james at jamespurser.com.au (Laurence Rowe) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 01:57:45 -0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000cba264b4$25a1c537$6e502df0$@jamespurser.com.au> Hey! Open message Laurence Rowe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Mon Feb 8 22:25:44 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:25:44 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] auDA Foundation call for submissions Message-ID: <56B87B38.2040805@kathyreid.id.au> May be of interest to this list --- *auDA Foundation applications now open* 8 February 2016 *auDA Foundation funding round for 2016 is NOW OPEN!* The auDA Foundation is now accepting applications for the 2016 funding round with a new, simplified application process for innovative, change-making Australian Internet-related projects and research. This year the Foundation has introduced a single, streamlined, easy-to-apply online form. Applications will be open from Monday 8 February until 5pm AEST on Friday 11 March 2016. Following the assessment process, grants will be awarded in mid-2016. The auDA Foundation offers grants of up to $25,000 for education and research initiatives that seek to enhance the use of the Internet for the Australian community, including schools, not-for-profit groups, and regional and remote communities. Last year?s grants were awarded to a diverse range of projects in areas such as sustainability, cyber-safety, indigenous digital literacy, and online resources for parents of young people at risk of eating disorders. auDA Foundation grants have assisted new and innovative initiatives to get off the ground or further develop to become sustainable. The Foundation also considers co-funding with other grantmakers. All funding information and details on applying for a grant can be found here: http://www.audafoundation.org.au/applying. If you have any specific questions about applying for an auDA Foundation grant, you can email info at audafoundation.org.au . The auDA Foundation is one of a number of programs run by auDA, aimed at supporting and recognising technological innovation and best practice, and advocating the benefits of the Internet to the wider Australian community. More information about auDA?s community programs can be found here: http://auda.org.au/about-auda/community/ *MEDIA CONTACTS: * Helen Hollins helen.hollins at auda.org.au Ph: +61 3 8341 4111 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Wed Feb 10 10:00:43 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 10:00:43 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee Message-ID: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> Good morning everyone! Fresh from the amazing experience that was linux.conf.au 2016 Geelong - LCA By the Bay (and a few days in which to recover), and with the motivation that comes from such an inspiring event still fresh in mind, I'd like to reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], Membership platform[1] and related pieces[2]. Please note I'm doing this with my 'Member' hat on rather than my 'Council' hat, and because I am highly motivated to deliver a better Membership platform for Linux Australia. The intent of this email is to seek expressions of interest from those who may be motivated and passionate about addressing the shortcoming of LA's current Membership platform, whether that be through a new platform, or enhancements to the current one. My intended approach here is to form a Membership Subcommittee under the Subcommittee Policy[3], should Council approve, and then use the Membership Subcommittee as a vehicle to drive recommendations and actions for improvement. So, who wants to join me in creating a better Membership platform? Kind regards, Kathy Reid [0] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021988.html [1] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021995.html [2] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/022016.html [3] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v2.md From neill at ingenious.com.au Wed Feb 10 11:41:11 2016 From: neill at ingenious.com.au (Neill Cox) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:41:11 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Hi Kathy, I have been quietly working on a possible replacement for memberdb. It's still in quite an early state, but the code, such as it is, is on github[0]. It uses the existing DB schema. My goals for this work are: 1/ Move to a modern, well supported platform - I've chosen flask[1] 2/ Re-implement the current functionality as a first step 3/ Implement the extra functionality as per the requirements doc I am not interested in working on either Drupal or CiviCRM. I have some sympathy for the arguments for CiviCRM but lack sufficient PHP skills to be useful in such work (and am not interested in acquiring them). OTOH, I don't want to get in the way of such efforts, and recognise the risk that the work I do may never actually be used by LA. I talked to several people at LCA who were also interested in working on memberdb, some of whom would probably be interested in PHP based solutions. I have at this point got most of the membersdhip side working, but am yet to seriously tackle elections. Progress is going to be slow for a little while as I catch up on my day job. My next step was going to be to contact the people who expressed an interest in helping. I would be happy to be part of or to work with a Membership Subcommittee. Regards, Neill [0] https://github.com/neillc/memberdb-ng [1] http://flask.pocoo.org/ On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Kathy Reid wrote: > Good morning everyone! > > Fresh from the amazing experience that was linux.conf.au 2016 Geelong - > LCA By the Bay (and a few days in which to recover), and with the > motivation that comes from such an inspiring event still fresh in mind, I'd > like to reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], > Membership platform[1] and related pieces[2]. > > Please note I'm doing this with my 'Member' hat on rather than my > 'Council' hat, and because I am highly motivated to deliver a better > Membership platform for Linux Australia. > > The intent of this email is to seek expressions of interest from those who > may be motivated and passionate about addressing the shortcoming of LA's > current Membership platform, whether that be through a new platform, or > enhancements to the current one. My intended approach here is to form a > Membership Subcommittee under the Subcommittee Policy[3], should Council > approve, and then use the Membership Subcommittee as a vehicle to drive > recommendations and actions for improvement. > > So, who wants to join me in creating a better Membership platform? > > Kind regards, > Kathy Reid > > > [0] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021988.html > [1] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021995.html > [2] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/022016.html > [3] > https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v2.md > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -- Neill Cox Ingenious Software -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at bakeyournoodle.com Wed Feb 10 12:40:55 2016 From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:40:55 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <20160210014055.GU94211@thor.bakeyournoodle.com> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00:43AM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: > Good morning everyone! > > Fresh from the amazing experience that was linux.conf.au 2016 Geelong - LCA > By the Bay (and a few days in which to recover), and with the motivation > that comes from such an inspiring event still fresh in mind, I'd like to > reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], Membership > platform[1] and related pieces[2]. > > Please note I'm doing this with my 'Member' hat on rather than my 'Council' > hat, and because I am highly motivated to deliver a better Membership > platform for Linux Australia. > > The intent of this email is to seek expressions of interest from those who > may be motivated and passionate about addressing the shortcoming of LA's > current Membership platform, whether that be through a new platform, or > enhancements to the current one. My intended approach here is to form a > Membership Subcommittee under the Subcommittee Policy[3], should Council > approve, and then use the Membership Subcommittee as a vehicle to drive > recommendations and actions for improvement. At this point my only comment is that subcommittee_policy_v2 [3] may be slightly burdensome for this activity. I'd recommend v1 [4]. The decisions is of course up to whomever ends up being on the sub-committee. I admit that my observation is tangential to collecting expressions of interest but I've said it now .... > [0] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021988.html > [1] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021995.html > [2] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/022016.html > [3] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v2.md [4] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v1.md Yours Tony. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From _ at chrisjrn.com Wed Feb 10 12:47:05 2016 From: _ at chrisjrn.com (Christopher Neugebauer) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 01:47:05 +0000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <20160210014055.GU94211@thor.bakeyournoodle.com> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160210014055.GU94211@thor.bakeyournoodle.com> Message-ID: On 10 February 2016 at 12:40, Tony Breeds wrote: > > At this point my only comment is that subcommittee_policy_v2 [3] may be > slightly burdensome for this activity. I'd recommend v1 [4]. The decisions is > of course up to whomever ends up being on the sub-committee. > > I admit that my observation is tangential to collecting expressions of interest > but I've said it now .... > >> [0] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021988.html >> [1] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/021995.html >> [2] http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2015-January/022016.html >> [3] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v2.md > > [4] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v1.md As the author of v2, I echo this sentiment. v2 is designed for recurring events with budgets, v1 remains suitable for committees that do not incur a budget. --Chris -- --Christopher Neugebauer Jabber: chrisjrn at gmail.com -- IRC: chrisjrn on irc.freenode.net -- WWW: http://chrisjrn.com -- Twitter: @chrisjrn From aj at erisian.com.au Thu Feb 11 16:32:39 2016 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:32:39 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00:43AM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: > I'd like to > reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], Membership > platform[1] and related pieces[2]. I wonder if it would work to structure this more along the lines of linux.conf.au bid teams, rather than as a sub-committee. ie, the council posts a date for bids to be in; Kathy does as civicrm demo/bid showing how cool it could be, maybe someone does a drupal bid/demo, and maybe Neill does flask/memberdb-ng bid. The council gives a few rounds of feedback to see how if the bids can be further improved, and then chooses the most promising bid (and a committee is formed at that point if needed). (Personally, I'm more philosophically inclined towards Neill's approach; but Donna pointed me at some drupal election modules which seemed pretty impressive, and while looking for survey software, I noticed civicrm actually has some and is already packaged for Debian, both of which seem like plusses to me) If people like this idea it could be implemented by the council doing a call for bids asking for: - a bid document describing what's great about the proposed solution - a public demo site where people can try things out - access to the demo site's management side, so the secretary at least can review that as well - instructions/packages/config items/etc for how to deploy the system (for public review, but more importantly for the admin team to review) - and anything else that seems helpful and enlightening and setting deadlines of maybe "now" for interested people to get together and start doing things, April 4th for sending expressions of interest to the list/council, June 1st for initial submissions and feedback, and August 1st for final submissions, so a decision could be made and rollout begin in September or October? Cheers, aj From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Thu Feb 11 20:54:36 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:54:36 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> Message-ID: <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> Thanks AJ for the thought you've put into this, and to Neill for the work that you've done around this as well. I'd be very comfortable with this approach - ie pitching for your idea to be developed further, with iterative proof points before an implementation. Are there any other people who'd be keen on being on "Team CiviCRM"? Kind regards, Kathy On 11/02/16 16:32, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00:43AM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: >> I'd like to >> reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], Membership >> platform[1] and related pieces[2]. > I wonder if it would work to structure this more along the lines of > linux.conf.au bid teams, rather than as a sub-committee. ie, the council > posts a date for bids to be in; Kathy does as civicrm demo/bid showing how > cool it could be, maybe someone does a drupal bid/demo, and maybe Neill > does flask/memberdb-ng bid. The council gives a few rounds of feedback > to see how if the bids can be further improved, and then chooses the > most promising bid (and a committee is formed at that point if needed). > > (Personally, I'm more philosophically inclined towards Neill's approach; > but Donna pointed me at some drupal election modules which seemed pretty > impressive, and while looking for survey software, I noticed civicrm > actually has some and is already packaged for Debian, both of which seem > like plusses to me) > > If people like this idea it could be implemented by the council doing > a call for bids asking for: > > - a bid document describing what's great about the proposed solution > - a public demo site where people can try things out > - access to the demo site's management side, so the secretary at least > can review that as well > - instructions/packages/config items/etc for how to deploy the system > (for public review, but more importantly for the admin team to review) > - and anything else that seems helpful and enlightening > > and setting deadlines of maybe "now" for interested people to get together > and start doing things, April 4th for sending expressions of interest > to the list/council, June 1st for initial submissions and feedback, > and August 1st for final submissions, so a decision could be made and > rollout begin in September or October? > > Cheers, > aj > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Feb 11 22:24:40 2016 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:54:40 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> CiviCRM is already a stable product, based on Drupal and no doubt could leverage the various Drupal modules already developed with sufficient technical knowledge. I doubt there's insufficient technical knowledge in Linux Australia to do so... ...why would we reinvent the wheel? Sure choosing a PHP based solution might hinder those who don't know PHP but choosing a Python based one hinders those who don't know Python. In fact, choosing a solution based on X will hinder those who don't like X and let's face it, we can't even sort out a name for the organisation - we're not going to settle on the best technical solution. This last point is probably a good thing BUT I would argue that Linux Australia doesn't exist to create a confounded CRM system. Or reinvent electoral systems. Or even create open source software itself. The tools we use for membership management are important but they're not our goal in life unless I've seriously misread Linux Australia's constitution and policies. The question I would actually put to the membership committee, would be: "Can you find ways that would cause the membership of Linux Australia to increase such that we needed a technical replacement urgently?". TL;DR - I think we're concentrating on the technical side and missing the actual issue... > -----Original Message----- > From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au] On Behalf > Of Kathy Reid > Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:25 PM > To: linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee > > Thanks AJ for the thought you've put into this, and to Neill for the work > that you've done around this as well. > > I'd be very comfortable with this approach - ie pitching for your idea to > be developed further, with iterative proof points before an > implementation. > > Are there any other people who'd be keen on being on "Team CiviCRM"? > > Kind regards, > Kathy > > On 11/02/16 16:32, Anthony Towns wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00:43AM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: > >> I'd like to > >> reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], > Membership > >> platform[1] and related pieces[2]. > > I wonder if it would work to structure this more along the lines of > > linux.conf.au bid teams, rather than as a sub-committee. ie, the > > council posts a date for bids to be in; Kathy does as civicrm demo/bid > > showing how cool it could be, maybe someone does a drupal > bid/demo, > > and maybe Neill does flask/memberdb-ng bid. The council gives a few > > rounds of feedback to see how if the bids can be further improved, > and > > then chooses the most promising bid (and a committee is formed at > that point if needed). > > > > (Personally, I'm more philosophically inclined towards Neill's > > approach; but Donna pointed me at some drupal election modules > which > > seemed pretty impressive, and while looking for survey software, I > > noticed civicrm actually has some and is already packaged for Debian, > > both of which seem like plusses to me) > > > > If people like this idea it could be implemented by the council doing > > a call for bids asking for: > > > > - a bid document describing what's great about the proposed solution > > - a public demo site where people can try things out > > - access to the demo site's management side, so the secretary at least > > can review that as well > > - instructions/packages/config items/etc for how to deploy the > system > > (for public review, but more importantly for the admin team to > review) > > - and anything else that seems helpful and enlightening > > > > and setting deadlines of maybe "now" for interested people to get > > together and start doing things, April 4th for sending expressions of > > interest to the list/council, June 1st for initial submissions and > > feedback, and August 1st for final submissions, so a decision could be > > made and rollout begin in September or October? > > > > Cheers, > > aj > > > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From neill.cox at ingenious.com.au Thu Feb 11 22:42:43 2016 From: neill.cox at ingenious.com.au (Neill Cox) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 22:42:43 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> Message-ID: To be honest, I chose flask because I wanted to learn about it. memberdb seemed like something that might be useful to LA. I was aware of the problems with the current implementation and thought a rewrite might be helpful. I've had some fun and learned quite a bit, it may yet prove to be useful, but if it isn't it's still been a worthwhile exercise for me. I encourage any LA members with knowledge of CiviCRM to step forward and help implement a replacement for memberdb. In the meantime I'll keep working on the flask version - gratefully accepting any help, and without expecting LA to feel any obligation to use the final product. This is one of the strengths of free software - we're all free to contribute and LA as an organization is free to choose the platform that best meets their need. I personally have a preference for python over php, but it's just that - a preference. I don't have hard data to back it up, just feelings :-) Reinventing the wheel can be fun, but feel free to stick with Wheel 1.0 if you prefer. Cheers, Neill On 11 Feb 2016 10:25 PM, "David Lloyd" wrote: > > CiviCRM is already a stable product, based on Drupal and no doubt could > leverage the various Drupal modules already developed with sufficient > technical knowledge. I doubt there's insufficient technical knowledge in > Linux Australia to do so... > > ...why would we reinvent the wheel? Sure choosing a PHP based solution > might hinder those who don't know PHP but choosing a Python based one > hinders those who don't know Python. In fact, choosing a solution based > on X will hinder those who don't like X and let's face it, we can't even > sort out a name for the organisation - we're not going to settle on the > best technical solution. > > This last point is probably a good thing BUT I would argue that Linux > Australia doesn't exist to create a confounded CRM system. Or reinvent > electoral systems. Or even create open source software itself. > > The tools we use for membership management are important but they're not > our goal in life unless I've seriously misread Linux Australia's > constitution and policies. > > The question I would actually put to the membership committee, would be: > > "Can you find ways that would cause the membership of Linux Australia to > increase such that we needed a technical replacement urgently?". > > TL;DR - I think we're concentrating on the technical side and missing > the actual issue... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au] On > Behalf > > Of Kathy Reid > > Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:25 PM > > To: linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee > > > > Thanks AJ for the thought you've put into this, and to Neill for the > work > > that you've done around this as well. > > > > I'd be very comfortable with this approach - ie pitching for your idea > to > > be developed further, with iterative proof points before an > > implementation. > > > > Are there any other people who'd be keen on being on "Team CiviCRM"? > > > > Kind regards, > > Kathy > > > > On 11/02/16 16:32, Anthony Towns wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00:43AM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: > > >> I'd like to > > >> reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], > > Membership > > >> platform[1] and related pieces[2]. > > > I wonder if it would work to structure this more along the lines of > > > linux.conf.au bid teams, rather than as a sub-committee. ie, the > > > council posts a date for bids to be in; Kathy does as civicrm > demo/bid > > > showing how cool it could be, maybe someone does a drupal > > bid/demo, > > > and maybe Neill does flask/memberdb-ng bid. The council gives a few > > > rounds of feedback to see how if the bids can be further improved, > > and > > > then chooses the most promising bid (and a committee is formed at > > that point if needed). > > > > > > (Personally, I'm more philosophically inclined towards Neill's > > > approach; but Donna pointed me at some drupal election modules > > which > > > seemed pretty impressive, and while looking for survey software, I > > > noticed civicrm actually has some and is already packaged for > Debian, > > > both of which seem like plusses to me) > > > > > > If people like this idea it could be implemented by the council > doing > > > a call for bids asking for: > > > > > > - a bid document describing what's great about the proposed > solution > > > - a public demo site where people can try things out > > > - access to the demo site's management side, so the secretary at > least > > > can review that as well > > > - instructions/packages/config items/etc for how to deploy the > > system > > > (for public review, but more importantly for the admin team to > > review) > > > - and anything else that seems helpful and enlightening > > > > > > and setting deadlines of maybe "now" for interested people to get > > > together and start doing things, April 4th for sending expressions > of > > > interest to the list/council, June 1st for initial submissions and > > > feedback, and August 1st for final submissions, so a decision could > be > > > made and rollout begin in September or October? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > aj > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > linux-aus mailing list > > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Feb 11 22:52:23 2016 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 22:22:23 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <006601d164c2$ac0e8200$042b8600$@adam.com.au> Neil, it?s actually not clear to me what?s broken about the current memberdb ? I actually think we?re concentrating on technical issues when the problem isn?t technical. I commend your work on membershipdb-ng. From: Neill Cox [mailto:neill.cox at ingenious.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 10:13 PM To: David Lloyd Cc: Kathy Reid ; linux-aus Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee To be honest, I chose flask because I wanted to learn about it. memberdb seemed like something that might be useful to LA. I was aware of the problems with the current implementation and thought a rewrite might be helpful. I've had some fun and learned quite a bit, it may yet prove to be useful, but if it isn't it's still been a worthwhile exercise for me. I encourage any LA members with knowledge of CiviCRM to step forward and help implement a replacement for memberdb. In the meantime I'll keep working on the flask version - gratefully accepting any help, and without expecting LA to feel any obligation to use the final product. This is one of the strengths of free software - we're all free to contribute and LA as an organization is free to choose the platform that best meets their need. I personally have a preference for python over php, but it's just that - a preference. I don't have hard data to back it up, just feelings :-) Reinventing the wheel can be fun, but feel free to stick with Wheel 1.0 if you prefer. Cheers, Neill On 11 Feb 2016 10:25 PM, "David Lloyd" > wrote: CiviCRM is already a stable product, based on Drupal and no doubt could leverage the various Drupal modules already developed with sufficient technical knowledge. I doubt there's insufficient technical knowledge in Linux Australia to do so... ...why would we reinvent the wheel? Sure choosing a PHP based solution might hinder those who don't know PHP but choosing a Python based one hinders those who don't know Python. In fact, choosing a solution based on X will hinder those who don't like X and let's face it, we can't even sort out a name for the organisation - we're not going to settle on the best technical solution. This last point is probably a good thing BUT I would argue that Linux Australia doesn't exist to create a confounded CRM system. Or reinvent electoral systems. Or even create open source software itself. The tools we use for membership management are important but they're not our goal in life unless I've seriously misread Linux Australia's constitution and policies. The question I would actually put to the membership committee, would be: "Can you find ways that would cause the membership of Linux Australia to increase such that we needed a technical replacement urgently?". TL;DR - I think we're concentrating on the technical side and missing the actual issue... > -----Original Message----- > From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au ] On Behalf > Of Kathy Reid > Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:25 PM > To: linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee > > Thanks AJ for the thought you've put into this, and to Neill for the work > that you've done around this as well. > > I'd be very comfortable with this approach - ie pitching for your idea to > be developed further, with iterative proof points before an > implementation. > > Are there any other people who'd be keen on being on "Team CiviCRM"? > > Kind regards, > Kathy > > On 11/02/16 16:32, Anthony Towns wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:00:43AM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: > >> I'd like to > >> reinvigorate the debate over our Membership Committee[0], > Membership > >> platform[1] and related pieces[2]. > > I wonder if it would work to structure this more along the lines of > > linux.conf.au bid teams, rather than as a sub-committee. ie, the > > council posts a date for bids to be in; Kathy does as civicrm demo/bid > > showing how cool it could be, maybe someone does a drupal > bid/demo, > > and maybe Neill does flask/memberdb-ng bid. The council gives a few > > rounds of feedback to see how if the bids can be further improved, > and > > then chooses the most promising bid (and a committee is formed at > that point if needed). > > > > (Personally, I'm more philosophically inclined towards Neill's > > approach; but Donna pointed me at some drupal election modules > which > > seemed pretty impressive, and while looking for survey software, I > > noticed civicrm actually has some and is already packaged for Debian, > > both of which seem like plusses to me) > > > > If people like this idea it could be implemented by the council doing > > a call for bids asking for: > > > > - a bid document describing what's great about the proposed solution > > - a public demo site where people can try things out > > - access to the demo site's management side, so the secretary at least > > can review that as well > > - instructions/packages/config items/etc for how to deploy the > system > > (for public review, but more importantly for the admin team to > review) > > - and anything else that seems helpful and enlightening > > > > and setting deadlines of maybe "now" for interested people to get > > together and start doing things, April 4th for sending expressions of > > interest to the list/council, June 1st for initial submissions and > > feedback, and August 1st for final submissions, so a decision could be > > made and rollout begin in September or October? > > > > Cheers, > > aj > > > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus _______________________________________________ linux-aus mailing list linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at blemings.org Thu Feb 11 23:00:47 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 23:00:47 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> Hiya, Have been following this thread with some interest and I guess my take is something along the lines of "A bit of Column A, Bit of Column B, Bit of Column C..." :) To elaborate on what I think are the key points as I'd see them - and I seek to do so as a member of the community in this case, not speaking for the Council or President though I'm sure they all have views too :) So; * The tooling we use to manage our membership is important - it should meet the various technical and non technical requirements. * Tools should also be philosophically aligned with LA * Tools should be maintainable, ideally without relying on any one person or organisation * The membership and voting tools are important for us as an organisation, but not ultimately our core business. I'd be reluctant then to burn too many cycles of our wonderful but busy volunteers on choosing and maintaining them. * The most open question on my mind is actually how many members we have - a way to non-intrusively reach out to the 3000+ people in the DB and ascertain their disposition towards their membership is I think a priority and a relatively urgent one at that. * We probably need a list of requirements somewhere in all this. This probably comes from the Council ultimately, but should be drawn from the wisdom of the broader membership * I'm not sure a bid process is necessary - my gut feeling is that I'd like a committee or group to form with a wide enough range of views and maturity to work out among themselves what the best technical solution is and recommend this :) There's probably other things, but that's a bit of a braindump for now. Cheers, Hugh From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Thu Feb 11 23:09:06 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 23:09:06 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <006601d164c2$ac0e8200$042b8600$@adam.com.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <006601d164c2$ac0e8200$042b8600$@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <56BC79E2.5060803@kathyreid.id.au> On 11/02/16 22:52, David Lloyd wrote: > > Neil, it?s actually not clear to me what?s broken about the current > memberdb ? I actually think we?re concentrating on technical issues > when the problem isn?t technical. > > I commend your work on membershipdb-ng. > It's a fair question David - and perhaps I haven't outlined the problem we're trying to solve clearly. The current MemberDB has *broken* functionality in the following ways: * Membership reporting is inconsistent, and we require consistent reporting to meet compliance requirements under the Fair Trading Act (NSW), as LA is an incorporated association. * The platform itself is aged, and runs on a difficult to support code base (an old version of PHP) The current MemberDB has functionality *gaps* in the following ways: * Memberships are not renewed, so we don't havea way to expire, or confirm currency of Membership * There are no targeted communications functionality - so we can't email subsets of Members, such as those in Victoria, those who are female - to provide useful information * We use a variety of tools to manage memberships of committees, and the current Membership platform does not make this easier. A list of requirements was started at; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tyTA3Fj5J9XL2D7UTIxw46smXGrLM5J-fI4g6GxK9hM/edit?usp=sharing and I'd warmly welcome contributions to this. Kind regards, Kathy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Feb 11 23:23:16 2016 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 22:53:16 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> Message-ID: <009301d164c6$fccb7730$f6626590$@adam.com.au> Hi Hugh, > * I'm not sure a bid process is necessary - my gut feeling is that I'd like a > committee or group to form with a wide enough range of views and > maturity to work out among themselves what the best technical solution > is and recommend this :) If the main committee isn't able to figure out the requirements for membership and the technical requirements for it (given the type of group we are) then I'd suggest we re-elect the committee. DSL From aj at erisian.com.au Fri Feb 12 01:46:22 2016 From: aj at erisian.com.au (Anthony Towns) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 00:46:22 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BC79E2.5060803@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <006601d164c2$ac0e8200$042b8600$@adam.com.au> <56BC79E2.5060803@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <20160211144622.GA29604@sapphire.erisian.com.au> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:09:06PM +1100, Kathy Reid wrote: > The current MemberDB has *broken* functionality in the following ways: Other misfeatures: * The election system doesn't handle ties (as we've seen this election) * At least historically, the election system wasn't really terribly secure against local attacks; but maybe that's been fixed * The election system isn't very friendly for letting members be more involved in decision making; eg the "name change vote" had to be mangled into an election for a variety of email aliases for John Ferlito... * There isn't really a strong featureset for interacting with members; if you do a mailout to everyone, capturing responses would be a manual process, eg. So even just a "please reconfirm you're interested in being a member of Linux Australia" or "let's send everyone a quick email to at least check their email addresses are still valid" means doing a lot of manual work. In an ideal world, maybe as an LA member you could just press a single button to fill in your details for registering at lca or PyCon AU rather than having to make a new account each year, for instance. In short, there are some reasonably significant improvements that could be made with a better membership system, and that's been true since at least a decade ago when I was secretary. It's *great* that people are pushing forward on this. Cheers, aj From craige at mcwhirter.com.au Fri Feb 12 18:18:32 2016 From: craige at mcwhirter.com.au (Craige McWhirter) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 17:18:32 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] What's in a name? Message-ID: <56BD8748.70201@mcwhirter.com.au> "that which we call a rose, By any other name would smell as sweet;" -- William Shakespeare With some of the recent discussions about whether the name "Linux Australia" is reflective of the complete range of our activities (I'm of the opinion that it no longer is), the name "Open Source Australia" is one of the more popular names suggested. With this in mind, I recently heard a representative of the Software Freedom Conservancy[0] make the following statement: "...the Free Software movement was overshadowed by this business interest in it, called OpenSource and we're in an ironic moment where more & more Free Software is being written every day...but I'm more likely to encounter a situation where I'm trying to get a job done or do something in the world where proprietary software is necessary." A rather big distinction is made between Free Software and Open Source software[1]. I'm interested in the community's opinion on this distinction. Is Mr Shakespeare correct or does the distinction between the names matter? [0] https://sfconservancy.org/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source#The_emergence_of_the_.22open_source.22_term -- Craige McWhirter M: +61 4685 91819 W: https://mcwhirter.com.au/ GNUSocial: craige at social.mcwhirter.io -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Fri Feb 12 19:25:04 2016 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 18:55:04 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] What's in a name? In-Reply-To: <56BD8748.70201@mcwhirter.com.au> References: <56BD8748.70201@mcwhirter.com.au> Message-ID: <004301d1656e$dffc31f0$9ff495d0$@adam.com.au> Hi Craige, > "...the Free Software movement was overshadowed by this business > interest in it, called OpenSource and we're in an ironic moment where > more & more Free Software is being written every day...but I'm more > likely to encounter a situation where I'm trying to get a job done or do > something in the world where proprietary software is necessary." > > I'm interested in the community's opinion on this distinction. Is Mr > Shakespeare correct or does the distinction between the names matter? That, of course, will depend on which group one asks and what their biases and preferences happen to be. I tend to think that "Open Source" is the more neutral term and that the term "Free Software" actually represents software that is, in the strictest sense, entirely free as per the various incarnations of the GPL [1]. I also see its proponents as being somewhat more fanatical about imposing their point of view regarding software freedom (small "L") than those of "Open Source". But, I am biased. I don't necessarily agree that imposing "Free Software" using licenses is necessary for a thriving software ecosystem; just take a look at the Apache Foundation and the myriad of projects there. I tend to take the point of view that an Apache 2, BSD (of various revisions), MIT and other similar licenses are more useful for introducing open source software (small letters) into a corporate environment because one can straight up say: "Nope, the license does not allow those to whom the binaries are distributed to request the rest of the proprietary code base." However, "Free Software" advocates [2] may choose to disagree here. In short, I think there's a few confusions: 1. "Free Software" and "Open Source" can mean the same thing if only talking about whether the software might be free as in beer, or somehow the software's source is available. 2. "Free Software" though may encompass a point of view that imposes "Free Software" upon those whom one distributes one's software to - it's a philosophy which says, "not Free Software is bad" (but clearly with the LGPL, though, there is some pragmatism going on). 3. "Open Source" is a philosophy too; I think it is related to (2) but I tend to see it as a more moderate, less confrontational term - as the article in Wikipedia itself points out, it emerged because people wanted to avoid the politics software freedom and just wanted software that was free in source form. Linux Australia has never been beholden to the "Free Software" crowd for as long as I've known it. It's actually become the umbrella organisation for "Open Source" activities in Australia especially after the collapse of the AUUG (3). But, back to the point, yes, a rose by any other name is the same. But "Free Software" and "Open Source" whilst talking about similar matters, concepts and philosophies, are two different species. To use the analogy, I don't even think our beloved Shakespeare would try to convince anyone that a plant that was clearly a cactus is a rose just because he called it so. I think he means, "were I, Shakespeare to point at that rose and call it an alligator, it would still be a rose and still smell sweet." But you couldn't point at an "alligator" and expect it to be a "rose". DSL [1] The source code must be available, modifiable and the license must be such that if you do redistribute it, you must redistribute it under the same terms; the license may not necessarily be the GPL of any version but I'm using this as an example as it's the most obvious license of this sort. (2) Symbiotic, maybe? Sometimes I've seen these two camps pitch all out flamewars at each other; (3) PS. The last chapter of AUUG is still going in a way - we've been meeting in fairly much the same place for about 15 years now although we don't call ourselves AUUG any longer. From james at jamespurser.com.au Sun Feb 14 01:31:33 2016 From: james at jamespurser.com.au (james at jamespurser.com.au) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 06:31:33 -0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000e20a2c49$ca00bd94$0119af28$@jamespurser.com.au> Hey! Open message james at jamespurser.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From secretary at linux.org.au Sat Feb 13 21:33:42 2016 From: secretary at linux.org.au (Linux Australia Secretary) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 21:33:42 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Declaration of election and welcome to new Council members Message-ID: <56BF0686.6040407@linux.org.au> Dear all, Pursuant to the Linux Australia constitution, an election was held recently and declared at the Annual General Meeting of Linux Australia held 01st February 2016. Thanks are extended to our Returning Officer, Mr Stewart Smith for overseeing the election, and to all those members in attendance. Please join me in extending a warm welcome to our new Council for 2016; HughBlemings - President Katherine (Kathy) Reid - Vice President Tony Breeds - Treasurer (returning) Sae Ra Germaine - Secretary (returning) Cherie Ellis - Ordinary Committee Member Katie McLaughlin - Ordinary Committee Member Craige McWhirter - Ordinary Committee Member (returning) Minutes of the AGM will follow in due course. If you're not currently a member of Linux Australia you may join at; http://www.linux.org.au/membership Membership entitles you to voting rights and to request Grants from Linux Australia. The Council welcomes your input and feedback and can be contacted via email to council at linux.org.au Warm Regards, Sae Ra -- Sae Ra Germaine Secretary Linux Australia secretary at linux.org.au http://linux.org.au Linux Australia Inc GPO Box 4788 Sydney NSW 2001 Australia ABN 56 987 117 479 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucychili at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 23:13:17 2016 From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Reid) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 22:43:17 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] TPP, comments open until 11 March Message-ID: The Committee invites interested persons and organisations to make submissions for the the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) by Friday, 11 March 2016. http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Treaties/9_February_2016/Treaty_under_consideration -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.carden at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 16:47:14 2016 From: mike.carden at gmail.com (Mike Carden) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:47:14 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Declaration of election and welcome to new Council members In-Reply-To: <56BF0686.6040407@linux.org.au> References: <56BF0686.6040407@linux.org.au> Message-ID: Thanks for publicising the election results Sae Ra. Thanks also to the LA members who voted in the election and to the LA members who attended the AGM and to the 2015 council members who are stepping down [1]. And last, but not least, thanks to all of you on our new council. I'm quite excited about the way we will shape the future together and very pleased by the excellent talent that the LA election has pushed to the top. We will all benefit from getting behind our new council to help even more people engage with the power of shared knowledge. -- MC [1] Er... I'm thanking for their service, not for stepping down. :) On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 9:33 PM, Linux Australia Secretary < secretary at linux.org.au> wrote: > Dear all, > > Pursuant to the Linux Australia constitution, an election was held > recently and declared at the Annual General Meeting of Linux Australia held > 01st February 2016. > > Thanks are extended to our Returning Officer, Mr Stewart Smith for > overseeing the election, and to all those members in attendance. > > Please join me in extending a warm welcome to our new Council for 2016; > > Hugh Blemings - President > Katherine (Kathy) Reid - Vice President > Tony Breeds - Treasurer (returning) > Sae Ra Germaine - Secretary (returning) > Cherie Ellis - Ordinary Committee Member > Katie McLaughlin - Ordinary Committee Member > Craige McWhirter - Ordinary Committee Member (returning) > > Minutes of the AGM will follow in due course. > > If you're not currently a member of Linux Australia you may join at; > http://www.linux.org.au/membership > Membership entitles you to voting rights and to request Grants from Linux > Australia. > > The Council welcomes your input and feedback and can be contacted via > email to council at linux.org.au > > Warm Regards, > > Sae Ra > > -- > > Sae Ra Germaine > Secretary > Linux Australia > secretary at linux.org.auhttp://linux.org.au > > Linux Australia Inc > GPO Box 4788 > Sydney NSW 2001 > Australia > > ABN 56 987 117 479 > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Mon Feb 15 13:18:04 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:18:04 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> Message-ID: <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> Agree with all of the below from Hugh. I haven't had anyone actually say "Yes, I'd like to be on the Membership Committee" as yet. Do we have any takers? Kind regards, Kathy On 11/02/16 23:00, Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hiya, > > Have been following this thread with some interest and I guess my take > is something along the lines of "A bit of Column A, Bit of Column B, > Bit of Column C..." :) > > To elaborate on what I think are the key points as I'd see them - and > I seek to do so as a member of the community in this case, not > speaking for the Council or President though I'm sure they all have > views too :) > > So; > > * The tooling we use to manage our membership is important - it should > meet the various technical and non technical requirements. > > * Tools should also be philosophically aligned with LA > > * Tools should be maintainable, ideally without relying on any one > person or organisation > > * The membership and voting tools are important for us as an > organisation, but not ultimately our core business. I'd be reluctant > then to burn too many cycles of our wonderful but busy volunteers on > choosing and maintaining them. > > * The most open question on my mind is actually how many members we > have - a way to non-intrusively reach out to the 3000+ people in the > DB and ascertain their disposition towards their membership is I think > a priority and a relatively urgent one at that. > > * We probably need a list of requirements somewhere in all this. This > probably comes from the Council ultimately, but should be drawn from > the wisdom of the broader membership > > * I'm not sure a bid process is necessary - my gut feeling is that I'd > like a committee or group to form with a wide enough range of views > and maturity to work out among themselves what the best technical > solution is and recommend this :) > > There's probably other things, but that's a bit of a braindump for now. > > Cheers, > Hugh > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From la at mjec.net Mon Feb 15 13:26:12 2016 From: la at mjec.net (Michael Cordover) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:26:12 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <1455503172.1208696.521158418.482E1AF9@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016, at 13:18, Kathy Reid wrote: > Agree with all of the below from Hugh. > I haven't had anyone actually say "Yes, I'd like to be on the Membership > Committee" as yet. Do we have any takers? I am keen. Michael From s.germaine at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 14:07:33 2016 From: s.germaine at gmail.com (Sae Ra Germaine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 14:07:33 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: I'm keen! Thanks Sae Ra On 15 February 2016 at 13:18, Kathy Reid wrote: > Agree with all of the below from Hugh. > I haven't had anyone actually say "Yes, I'd like to be on the Membership > Committee" as yet. Do we have any takers? > > Kind regards, > Kathy > > > On 11/02/16 23:00, Hugh Blemings wrote: > >> Hiya, >> >> Have been following this thread with some interest and I guess my take is >> something along the lines of "A bit of Column A, Bit of Column B, Bit of >> Column C..." :) >> >> To elaborate on what I think are the key points as I'd see them - and I >> seek to do so as a member of the community in this case, not speaking for >> the Council or President though I'm sure they all have views too :) >> >> So; >> >> * The tooling we use to manage our membership is important - it should >> meet the various technical and non technical requirements. >> >> * Tools should also be philosophically aligned with LA >> >> * Tools should be maintainable, ideally without relying on any one person >> or organisation >> >> * The membership and voting tools are important for us as an >> organisation, but not ultimately our core business. I'd be reluctant then >> to burn too many cycles of our wonderful but busy volunteers on choosing >> and maintaining them. >> >> * The most open question on my mind is actually how many members we have >> - a way to non-intrusively reach out to the 3000+ people in the DB and >> ascertain their disposition towards their membership is I think a priority >> and a relatively urgent one at that. >> >> * We probably need a list of requirements somewhere in all this. This >> probably comes from the Council ultimately, but should be drawn from the >> wisdom of the broader membership >> >> * I'm not sure a bid process is necessary - my gut feeling is that I'd >> like a committee or group to form with a wide enough range of views and >> maturity to work out among themselves what the best technical solution is >> and recommend this :) >> >> There's probably other things, but that's a bit of a braindump for now. >> >> Cheers, >> Hugh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From email at lukejohn.me Mon Feb 15 21:21:55 2016 From: email at lukejohn.me (Luke John) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:21:55 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Keen. On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Sae Ra Germaine wrote: > I'm keen! > > Thanks > > Sae Ra > > On 15 February 2016 at 13:18, Kathy Reid wrote: >> >> Agree with all of the below from Hugh. >> I haven't had anyone actually say "Yes, I'd like to be on the Membership >> Committee" as yet. Do we have any takers? >> >> Kind regards, >> Kathy >> >> >> On 11/02/16 23:00, Hugh Blemings wrote: >>> >>> Hiya, >>> >>> Have been following this thread with some interest and I guess my take is >>> something along the lines of "A bit of Column A, Bit of Column B, Bit of >>> Column C..." :) >>> >>> To elaborate on what I think are the key points as I'd see them - and I >>> seek to do so as a member of the community in this case, not speaking for >>> the Council or President though I'm sure they all have views too :) >>> >>> So; >>> >>> * The tooling we use to manage our membership is important - it should >>> meet the various technical and non technical requirements. >>> >>> * Tools should also be philosophically aligned with LA >>> >>> * Tools should be maintainable, ideally without relying on any one person >>> or organisation >>> >>> * The membership and voting tools are important for us as an >>> organisation, but not ultimately our core business. I'd be reluctant then >>> to burn too many cycles of our wonderful but busy volunteers on choosing and >>> maintaining them. >>> >>> * The most open question on my mind is actually how many members we have >>> - a way to non-intrusively reach out to the 3000+ people in the DB and >>> ascertain their disposition towards their membership is I think a priority >>> and a relatively urgent one at that. >>> >>> * We probably need a list of requirements somewhere in all this. This >>> probably comes from the Council ultimately, but should be drawn from the >>> wisdom of the broader membership >>> >>> * I'm not sure a bid process is necessary - my gut feeling is that I'd >>> like a committee or group to form with a wide enough range of views and >>> maturity to work out among themselves what the best technical solution is >>> and recommend this :) >>> >>> There's probably other things, but that's a bit of a braindump for now. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Hugh >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Mon Feb 15 23:09:22 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 23:09:22 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Motion to create a Membership Team Message-ID: <56C1BFF2.30808@kathyreid.id.au> We have some wonderful people to make a Membership Team happen! Council - could we please consider this motion at our next meeting? (cc Linux-Aus for transparency) Kind regards, Kathy --- MOTION by Kathy Reid That a subcommittee be formed in line with v1 of the Subcommittee policy (https://github.com/linuxaustralia/constitution_and_policies/blob/master/subcommittee_policy_v1.md) to oversee and deliver requirements, options, recommendations and actions pertaining to the Membership platform of Linux Australia to be referred to as the "Membership Team" with initial members being; Sae Ra Germaine Cameron Tudball Neill Cox Michael Cordover Luke John Kathy Reid From jaddi27 at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 23:26:26 2016 From: jaddi27 at gmail.com (Joel Addison) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:26:26 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re-igniting the Membership Committee In-Reply-To: References: <56BA6F9B.1080503@kathyreid.id.au> <20160211053239.GA20213@sapphire.erisian.com.au> <56BC5A5C.3000304@kathyreid.id.au> <003201d164be$cd28ebf0$677ac3d0$@adam.com.au> <56BC77EF.5010006@blemings.org> <56C1355C.4070905@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <6CA11F21-D35B-480F-9226-BDDEAFA89CC0@gmail.com> I?m also interested in this :) > On 15 Feb 2016, at 8:21 PM, Luke John wrote: > > Keen. > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Sae Ra Germaine wrote: >> I'm keen! >> >> Thanks >> >> Sae Ra >> >> On 15 February 2016 at 13:18, Kathy Reid wrote: >>> >>> Agree with all of the below from Hugh. >>> I haven't had anyone actually say "Yes, I'd like to be on the Membership >>> Committee" as yet. Do we have any takers? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Kathy >>> >>> >>> On 11/02/16 23:00, Hugh Blemings wrote: >>>> >>>> Hiya, >>>> >>>> Have been following this thread with some interest and I guess my take is >>>> something along the lines of "A bit of Column A, Bit of Column B, Bit of >>>> Column C..." :) >>>> >>>> To elaborate on what I think are the key points as I'd see them - and I >>>> seek to do so as a member of the community in this case, not speaking for >>>> the Council or President though I'm sure they all have views too :) >>>> >>>> So; >>>> >>>> * The tooling we use to manage our membership is important - it should >>>> meet the various technical and non technical requirements. >>>> >>>> * Tools should also be philosophically aligned with LA >>>> >>>> * Tools should be maintainable, ideally without relying on any one person >>>> or organisation >>>> >>>> * The membership and voting tools are important for us as an >>>> organisation, but not ultimately our core business. I'd be reluctant then >>>> to burn too many cycles of our wonderful but busy volunteers on choosing and >>>> maintaining them. >>>> >>>> * The most open question on my mind is actually how many members we have >>>> - a way to non-intrusively reach out to the 3000+ people in the DB and >>>> ascertain their disposition towards their membership is I think a priority >>>> and a relatively urgent one at that. >>>> >>>> * We probably need a list of requirements somewhere in all this. This >>>> probably comes from the Council ultimately, but should be drawn from the >>>> wisdom of the broader membership >>>> >>>> * I'm not sure a bid process is necessary - my gut feeling is that I'd >>>> like a committee or group to form with a wide enough range of views and >>>> maturity to work out among themselves what the best technical solution is >>>> and recommend this :) >>>> >>>> There's probably other things, but that's a bit of a braindump for now. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> linux-aus mailing list >>>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus From j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au Sat Feb 20 15:24:21 2016 From: j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au (j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:24:21 -0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fw: new message Message-ID: <000047e93ad9$1eb81b8a$488b6d26$@decisions-and-designs.com.au> Hey! Open message j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Wed Feb 24 22:52:29 2016 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:52:29 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Women in open source awards - voting now open Message-ID: <56CD997D.1080203@kathyreid.id.au> https://www.redhat.com/en/about/women-in-open-source Best, Kathy From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Feb 25 18:10:44 2016 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 17:40:44 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] LinuxSA - The IoT & The Cloud - 15 March - Romana Challans Message-ID: <003001d16f9b$a6a5e900$f3f1bb00$@adam.com.au> Hi There, Heard a lot about IoT? The Cloud? kind of understand it - but not sure you really do? Or know a lot about it, and want to share what you know? Come along to 'IoT & the Cloud - thoroughly mix a lot of old technologies with some new, a lick of paint, some spit and polish: and voila! New technology' Presented by Romana Challans. Romana is a long time member of LinuxSA who, after years of skirmishes in the famous Vi vs Emacs wars, (Vi/Vim of course), retired to lurk on the lists. She is also a lecturer in Information Technology/Computer Science topics at Flinders University - including the technology she will be discussing. She is also occasionally dangerous in her wheelchair. What? The monthly LinuxSA Meeting - "The IoT & The Cloud" Where? Marcellinas Pizza Bar, 273 Hindley Street, Adelaide (map link ) When? Tuesday, 15 March, 2016 What Time? We gather around about 18:00 and order food between 18:10-18:20; we aim to start the talk as close to 19:00 as possible. The venue is licensed and caters for most dietary requirements [1] . If eating please bring approximately $10-11 as we usually order shared pizza - drinks are paid on a per person basis. DSL [1] We'll do our best to ensure you can share with us, if sharing, but if you are concerned about any particular allergies, please contact the friendly staff at Marcellinas who'll be happy to do their best to ensure you can participate. -- David Lloyd http://www.validlyodd.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Feb 25 18:29:37 2016 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 17:59:37 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] LinuxSA - The IoT & The Cloud - 15 March - Romana Challans In-Reply-To: <003001d16f9b$a6a5e900$f3f1bb00$@adam.com.au> References: <003001d16f9b$a6a5e900$f3f1bb00$@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <005a01d16f9e$4862de90$d9289bb0$@adam.com.au> Hmmm, this was meant for LinuxSA but you're all welcome to come along. From: linux-aus [mailto:linux-aus-bounces at lists.linux.org.au] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: Thursday, 25 February 2016 5:41 PM To: linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au Subject: [Linux-aus] LinuxSA - The IoT & The Cloud - 15 March - Romana Challans Hi There, Heard a lot about IoT? The Cloud? kind of understand it - but not sure you really do? Or know a lot about it, and want to share what you know? Come along to 'IoT & the Cloud - thoroughly mix a lot of old technologies with some new, a lick of paint, some spit and polish: and voila! New technology' Presented by Romana Challans. Romana is a long time member of LinuxSA who, after years of skirmishes in the famous Vi vs Emacs wars, (Vi/Vim of course), retired to lurk on the lists. She is also a lecturer in Information Technology/Computer Science topics at Flinders University - including the technology she will be discussing. She is also occasionally dangerous in her wheelchair. What? The monthly LinuxSA Meeting - "The IoT & The Cloud" Where? Marcellinas Pizza Bar, 273 Hindley Street, Adelaide (map link ) When? Tuesday, 15 March, 2016 What Time? We gather around about 18:00 and order food between 18:10-18:20; we aim to start the talk as close to 19:00 as possible. The venue is licensed and caters for most dietary requirements [1] . If eating please bring approximately $10-11 as we usually order shared pizza - drinks are paid on a per person basis. DSL [1] We'll do our best to ensure you can share with us, if sharing, but if you are concerned about any particular allergies, please contact the friendly staff at Marcellinas who'll be happy to do their best to ensure you can participate. -- David Lloyd http://www.validlyodd.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at blemings.org Sun Feb 28 20:50:54 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 20:50:54 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia mail/list server In-Reply-To: <56CFE713.5020201@nerdvana.org.au> References: <56CFE713.5020201@nerdvana.org.au> Message-ID: <56D2C2FE.6000507@blemings.org> Dear Linux-Aus, I write to brief you on a recent issue with Linux Australia's mail server. If you are among the majority of folk that haven't experienced any problems, then you can safely ignore this email. However, in the interests of transparency and openness, we're providing the following details as it is an experience that many in our community may find interesting. Early on the morning of the 20th Feb, members of the new LA council were contacted by previous council members to advise that they appeared to have been re-subscribed to the council mailing list. In addition to this a number of community members noted the apparent intermittent absence of the Linux Australia mailing list archives. While investigating these reports on the 22nd, the Admin team was contacted by other users of the Linux Australia mail system to advise that it appeared their mailboxes had been rolled back to a version from December 2015. During the investigation, there were periods of the correct mailboxes and mailman subscriptions being returned, immediately followed by a return to the old information. As the last change to the system had been a reboot following a patch for the recent glibc buffer overflow vulnerability (CVE-2015-7547) which was applied on the 19th, the initial path of investigation was related to the possibility of an as yet unknown bug related to virtualisation disk caching and the recently applied update. On the 23rd February, whilst gathering hardware information on one of the virtualistation chassis that Linux Australia uses so as to lodge a maintenance case, a member of the Admin team discovered that this system, which had previously been removed from the storage pool and shutdown, had recently been powered on, and a duplicate copy of the mailhost virtual machine had been started on boot. Once this virtual machine was powered down, all users reported that the correct mailbox contents were now available and mailing lists had the correct subscribers. The chassis has subsequently been removed from the datacentre, and will re-installed once the existing maintenance issues have been resolved. No mail was lost during this period, as it was delivered to the now-powered down virtual machine. The Admin team is working to recover this mail and insert it into the relevant archives of the Linux Australia and other lists, as well as the user mailboxes. We expect to have this recovery concluded within the fortnight. ** Was this a malicious act? No. We believe this was a non-intentional occurrence. The server was powered down and removed from the cluster due partially to the failure of one of the system power supplies. These machines are set to power up on return of power, and we believe the server received a power "blip" on the functional power supply that had a sufficient duration to trigger the "power return" state action within the system controller, resulting in the machine booting into a running OS. ** How were two instances of the same machine allowed to be running? As the second server was not part of the cluster, there was no file lock to inhibit the starting of the virtual machine from local storage, and no ability for the operational system to know the second system had started a duplicate machine. ** What has been done to stop this happening again? The Admin team has changed the procedure for decommissioning a machine for maintenance to include the request for physical removal of power, as well as add the machine to a monitoring alert that will alert on power up. My apologies for any inconvenience caused by the above and thanks to the Admin team for acting quickly on the reports of errant behaviour. Kind Regards, Hugh -- Hugh Blemings, President, Linux Australia From dtbell91 at gmail.com Mon Feb 29 18:36:08 2016 From: dtbell91 at gmail.com (David Bell) Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 18:36:08 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] SPF problems too In-Reply-To: <201601170623.14304.russell@coker.com.au> References: <201601150311.36115.russell@coker.com.au> <5698E05D.6050709@nerdvana.org.au> <201601170623.14304.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: Because I'm finally making an attempt to catch up on email I thought I'd share my perspective as a moderator/admin of the mailing lists for LCA2016 (and lca-announce) as well as a user of mailhost for normal email. Following this thread the admin team disabled greylisting and SPF on mailhost which affects mail flow into LA's mailing lists (including LCA) and the various inboxes used by Council, the Admin Team, and the LCA team (among others). Whilst mail was delivered slightly quicker, the quantity of spam also increased notably. Across 8 mailing lists, 11 RT queues (most of which had email addresses published somewhere), and 6 inboxes you can imagine that would be quite a time sink. This meant: - more messages clogging our moderation queues for Mailman (including the endless notifications and then the bounces as well), this might have meant that some false-positive moderated messages didn't get released as quickly as they should have or may have even been accidentally dropped. - many spam RT tickets (and again more bounce messages) creating more work for the team to clear the queues so actual tickets could get our focus. - so many SEO emails. I'm not sure who they think is competing for ' linux.conf.au' search traffic but it was endless. If I had a dollar for every SEO email maybe we might have been able to afford some paid SEO. Based on these experiences (which I'd expect the other mailman moderators/admins, mailhost users would echo) I'd recommend the Admin Team enable greylisting and SPF once again. If configured well (as I believe it was previously) most users should barely notice a delay as repeat senders do not get greylisted again within certain time frames. Thanks, David On 17 January 2016 at 17:23, Russell Coker wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 03:44:32 AM Brent Wallis wrote: > > > On 01/15/2016 08:57 PM, Russell Coker wrote: > > >> Thanks for the vote of confidence in my abilities. I do make > mistakes > > >> on occasion, and in retrospect just adding a DMARC entry and sending > > >> mail to lists was a mistake. But a correctly behaving list won't > > >> unsubscribe people > > >> because of a mistake made by one member. > > > > > > In all seriousness, how will the list server know what happened here? > You > > > were experimenting with DMARC, there was a configuration error made ( a > > > mail server error? from RC? uh oh Brent, better find some tightey > > > whiteys), and a flurry of bounces came in. Mailman did what mailman is > > > programmed to do. > > > > Meh..... how dare _anyone_ make mistakes! ;-) > > > > I think I stand corrected? > > I did not make any mistakes in the configuration of my mail server/DNS as > such. > The mistake was in deciding to configure it that way at that time. > > I think this lets Brent off on a technicality. ;) > > > So be it... but someone will have to track me down the street with a > > "bucket" for those offended to the point of nausea... > > Perhaps even collect coins for a charity of someones chosing. > > Thankfully... my under garb is generally knee length lycra and a discrete > > cod piece... > > > > ....and honouring my commitment at 2am one Tuesday should definitely > > minimise social damage.... > > Remember, pics or it didn't happen. ;) > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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