From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 1 10:07:41 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (recluse103.arach.net.au [203.22.197.231]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4127Ooi016362 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 10:07:41 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D6E13CCE for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 10:07:56 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication User-Agent: KMail/1.5 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="Boundary-00=_8FIs+xinRxdGvPE" Message-Id: <200305011007.56415.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: IBM launches project to boost open source use Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 1 10:08:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:07:56 +0800 --Boundary-00=_8FIs+xinRxdGvPE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forward; originally to "echalk List" ---------- Subject: IBM launches project to boost open source use Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:20 From: "Kim Flintoff" To: "echalk List" IBM launches project to boost open source use By Online Staff April 30 2003 IBM Australia has announced a three-year project to focus on increasing the performance of open source software like Linux to facilitate the movement of such software into enterprise computing. The project will be the first under a new initiative - the Centre for Advanced Studies (CAS) - which was announced by the company in Sydney today. The CAS aims to consolidate the amount - over $40 million - which IBM invests in national research each year. The project will be carried out in collaboration with the Federal Government's ICT Centre of Excellence. The CAS, the first outside North America, will give Australian researchers access to the company's worldwide research resources. IBM's 15 existing research relationships/projects in Australia will now come under the centre's programme. The project will be undertaken by National ICT Australia (NICTA) at its University of New South Wales site. The initial phase will involve seconded staff, as well as PhD and honours students from the University. IBM Australia CEO Philip Bullock said: "Open source is key to the future of business as it enables greater levels of connectivity and integration within an organisation and with its business partners, customers and suppliers." This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/30/1051381980670.html ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia --Boundary-00=_8FIs+xinRxdGvPE Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"; name=" " Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IBM=20 launches project to boost open source use
By Online Staff
April 30 2003

IBM Australia has announced a three-year project to focus on = increasing the=20 performance of open source software like Linux to facilitate the = movement of=20 such software into enterprise computing.

The project will be the first under a new initiative - the Centre for = Advanced Studies (CAS) - which was announced by the company in Sydney = today.=20

The CAS aims to consolidate the amount - over $40 million - which IBM = invests=20 in national research each year.

The project will be carried out in collaboration with the Federal=20 Government's ICT Centre of Excellence.

The CAS, the first outside North America, will give Australian = researchers=20 access to the company's worldwide research resources.

IBM's 15 existing research relationships/projects in Australia will = now come=20 under the centre's programme.

The project will be undertaken by National ICT Australia (NICTA) at = its=20 University of New South Wales site. The initial phase will involve = seconded=20 staff, as well as PhD and honours students from the University.

IBM Australia CEO Philip Bullock said: "Open source is key to the = future of=20 business as it enables greater levels of connectivity and integration = within an=20 organisation and with its business partners, customers and suppliers." =

This story was found at:=20 http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/30/1051381980670.html=20

--Boundary-00=_8FIs+xinRxdGvPE-- From bhards@bigpond.net.au Thu May 1 16:28:58 2003 Received: from mta03bw.bigpond.com (mta03bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.86]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h418Shoi000897 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 16:28:58 +0800 Received: from rachel ([144.135.24.72]) by mta03bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta03bw Jul 16 2002 22:47:55) with SMTP id HE78VP00.D4J for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 18:28:37 +1000 Received: from CPE-203-51-30-237.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.30.237]) by bwmam02bpa.bigpond.com(MAM V3.3.2 17/17936052); 01 May 2003 18:28:37 From: Brad Hards To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by digital.linux.org.au id h418Shoi000897 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 1 16:29:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:25:25 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Below is a message I sent to Pia Smith in response to a message sent to everyone that attended LCA2003. Since a month has passed and I have received no response, I'll go wider. Note that I have editted it slightly to correct spellos. On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? Brad - - - - On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57, Pia Smith wrote: > ___________________________________________ > > > Welcome to Linux Australia. > > As you may (or may not) be aware, your Linux Conf Au 2003 registration > included membership to Linux Australia. Nice idea, but I think it is illegal. Because being a member carries certain obligations, people can't be members without their explicit consent - it is a common law issue relating to how to two people cannot act to bind a third person (or something like that - IANAL). Also, it is unconstitutional: (1) An application by a person for normal membership of the association: (a) must be made by a member of the association in writing in the form set out in Appendix 1 to these rules; and (b) must be lodged with the secretary of the association. Appendix 1 shows that the application needs to be signed by the applicant, which clearly hasn't been done for all the "auto-members". Thoughts? Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sNn2W6pHgIdAuOMRAqO9AJ9Uc0w6onTUNcSwrpShN4AzY1LWSACeNf2j ExuoFYANUNZOSK2PKbfS6XA= =MMA3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub@perkypants.org Thu May 1 17:01:55 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4191eoi004990 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 17:01:55 +0800 Received: (qmail 27957 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 08:44:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.69.112) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 1 May 2003 08:44:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CE28C0EE; Thu, 1 May 2003 18:44:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19661-06; Thu, 1 May 2003 18:44:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C738C0ED; Thu, 1 May 2003 18:44:37 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8FF9E12B730; Thu, 1 May 2003 18:44:37 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: allies@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, allies@lists.linux.org.au References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun May 4 18:42:31 EST 2003 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-pre5 i686 X-Uptime: 18:42:31 up 20 days, 12 min, 4 users, load average: 0.10, 0.03, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 1 17:03:27 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:44:37 +1000 Hi Ian, As this is of general interest (more general than education), it's probably more appropriate on the linux-aus mailing list. Thanks, - Jeff > This notice has just appeared in the Linux SA mailing list. > _____________________________ > I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat > spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is > introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. > > In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: > > > 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about > > the procurement of computer software for its operations, > > have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a > > public authority should use open source software in > > preference to proprietary software. > > I've put up his draft speech at > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/oss-bill/and > put up the bill at > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/oss-bill/open-source-bill.pdf > > For the Bill to move forward, it needs support from the > Government or the Opposition (or both!), so if you want to > lobby your local member of Parliament to support it, I think > that would be a good thing. Any political-type people have > any suggestions on doing this? I gather that you can find > your local member of Parliament at: > http://www.seo.sa.gov.au/apps/news/?year=2002 > _____________________________ > > Cheers, Ian -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Women are too irrational to be crazed killers anyway." - Angus Lees From maddog@li.org Thu May 1 20:24:24 2003 Received: from localhost.localdomain (pool-64-223-151-204.man.east.verizon.net [64.223.151.204]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h41CO2oi029395 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 20:24:24 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h41CPDUX001290; Thu, 1 May 2003 08:25:18 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h41CP55m001286; Thu, 1 May 2003 08:25:07 -0400 Message-Id: <200305011225.h41CP55m001286@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brad Hards cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: Message from Brad Hards of "Thu, 01 May 2003 18:25:25 +1000." <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 1 20:25:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 08:25:05 -0400 Hi, USENIX in the United States has a check box on the form that allows the person to elect membership when they register for the conference. The members conference fee plus membership fee usually is equal to the non-members conference fee, but there is the concept of "value transferred" and "election". md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From james@rcpt.to Fri May 2 07:28:19 2003 Received: from pelicanmanufacturing.com.au (puffbird.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au [203.59.220.18]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h41NRwoi011116 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 07:28:18 +0800 Received: from phobe.internal.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pelicanmanufacturing.com.au (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id h41NQjSQ000980; Fri, 2 May 2003 07:26:45 +0800 Received: (from james@localhost) by phobe.internal.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) id h41NQjw8000978; Fri, 2 May 2003 07:26:45 +0800 X-Authentication-Warning: phobe.internal.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au: james set sender to james@rcpt.to using -f From: James Bromberger To: Brad Hards Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership Message-ID: <20030501232644.GA908@phobe.internal.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZPt4rx8FFjLCG7dd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 07:29:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:26:44 +0800 --ZPt4rx8FFjLCG7dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad Hards (bhards@bigpond.net.au) wrote: > Below is a message I sent to Pia Smith in response to a message sent to= =20 > everyone that attended LCA2003. Since a month has passed and I have recei= ved=20 > no response, I'll go wider. Note that I have editted it slightly to corre= ct=20 > spellos. >=20 > On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? >=20 > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57, Pia Smith wrote: > > As you may (or may not) be aware, your Linux Conf Au 2003 registration > > included membership to Linux Australia. > Nice idea, but I think it is illegal. Because being a member carries cert= ain > obligations, people can't be members without their explicit consent - it = is a > common law issue relating to how to two people cannot act to bind a third > person (or something like that - IANAL). Well, IIRC from the haze and flashing lights that was LCA2003, there was a membership form to be returned to the then LCA committee to give consent, no? I know I madly made sure mine was filled in and handed to Anand at the time. =20 > Appendix 1 shows that the application needs to be signed by the applicant, > which clearly hasn't been done for all the "auto-members". >=20 > Thoughts? IMHO, the 'auto-members' is the pickup for those that were given membership, and didn't bother to fill in the form. So, the question is, if our there are people who were given memberships and did not fill them in, do they: (a) get a membership anyway (b) get prompted via email saying "you got a free membership, but you should have filled in the form in the conference pack. We cant find yours; please complete by return email"... (c) get forgotten since they couldn't be bothered (however some may have been misplaced??) OK, off to bed. 00:26 BST (+0100). Regards, James --=20 James Bromberger www.james.rcpt.to Remainder moved to http://www.james.rcpt.to/james/sig.html I am in London on UK mobile +44 7952 042920. --ZPt4rx8FFjLCG7dd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sa00pfJwKAkXqeQRAtQFAJ0dMhxW3jfjIH9tvkyvcMalSvdKugCfVrWg Z1NdWJobpQckRGPys/S2Dag= =FhH9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZPt4rx8FFjLCG7dd-- From president@linux.org.au Fri May 2 09:00:57 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-06.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.38]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4210doi021331 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 09:00:57 +0800 Received: (qmail 17734 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 01:00:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.69.112) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 2 May 2003 01:00:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A332A8C0EE; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:00:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12509-03; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:00:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from [192.168.10.120] (unknown [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7548C0ED; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:00:31 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership From: Pia Smith To: Brad Hards Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, announce , lca-organisers@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Linux Australia Message-Id: <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 09:02:33 2003 X-Original-Date: 02 May 2003 10:46:52 +1000 Hi all, First of all, an apology to Brad for not getting back to him sooner. Unfortunately our responses are not always as prompt as we'd like, but we are getting through quote a few :) On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 18:25, Brad Hards wrote: > On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? One of the first things we discussed was the consitution and how legit the preceedings at LCA Perth were. The decision was made by the previous committee in an attempt to jump start the organisation to be something better for everyone. All people who attended LCA had on their receipt notice of their free membership to LA, with the idea that if anyone didn't want it, they could let LA know. As James mentioned we also had the forms to fill out in the LCA bags, and we received quite a few of them back, we also had a few people wish to not be a member, so they were taken off the membership. Jons suggestion for the "Do you want free Linux Australia membership" check box on the registration page is an excellent idea (hence this being forwarded to lca2004 organisers :) thanks Jon!) and certainly takes care of the current issue for next year. We have a team of people (headed by Stewart) who are working on what exact constitution changes need to be made, and we will be presenting them at the next AGM to sort it all out. Anyone with an interest is welcome to email him or the committee. Unfortunately, at the end of the day it is already done. We really want to do what we can for the community, and build this organisation into something useful and interesting for the Australian Linux community. Hopefully we can get all the internal stuff sorted out this year so that next year Linux Australia will not have the same problems :) Our minutes are now up publicly under "Committee News" at http://linux.org.au We've had them publicly accessible for a while but they weren't anywhere sane until recently. Thanks and regards, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Fri May 2 09:26:32 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h421Q8oi024243; Fri, 2 May 2003 09:26:31 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA02368; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:26:02 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5413D57BADF; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:26:02 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, allies@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill Message-ID: <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 09:27:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:26:02 +1000 On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 06:44:37PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi Ian, > > As this is of general interest (more general than education), it's probably > more appropriate on the linux-aus mailing list. > > Thanks, > > - Jeff > > > > > This notice has just appeared in the Linux SA mailing list. > > _____________________________ > > I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat > > spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is > > introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. > > > > In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: > > > > > 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about > > > the procurement of computer software for its operations, > > > have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a > > > public authority should use open source software in > > > preference to proprietary software. Much as I'd like to see free software in widest possible deployment, I don't believe this approach is the most effective. There's too much that can easily be attacked as partisan, which will cause many politicians who would otherwise have supported such law, to back off. It's also too easy for well leveraged vested interest groups to (appear) justifiably antagonistic towards. I would posit that the most effective case to be made in this country (other countries will need different tactics) is to push for the following: 1) All government bodies should only use technologies for which file formats and network communication protocols are open and documented. 2) Preference should be given to technologies for which there are multiple vendors, helping better position future government purchasing tactically and avoiding vendor lock-in and price gouging. 3) Preference should be given to technologies for which there is is a case to be made that local industry can benefit, and that import replacements can be reduced, helping improve our balance of trade imbalance. Simply by implementing such a rule-set in state and federal purchasing policy, we will see FOSS acquisition skyrocket. Note, FOSS was not even mentioned. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From pia@linux.org.au Fri May 2 09:40:17 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-09.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.41]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h421droi025821 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 09:40:17 +0800 Received: (qmail 10022 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 01:22:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.69.112) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 2 May 2003 01:22:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411048C0EE; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:22:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16754-04; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:22:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from [192.168.10.120] (unknown [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A598C0ED; Fri, 2 May 2003 11:22:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership From: Pia Smith To: Brad Hards Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, announce , lca-organisers@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1051837744.22494.3647.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 09:42:26 2003 X-Original-Date: 02 May 2003 11:09:04 +1000 Sorry, just to clarify one point: On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 10:46, Pia Smith wrote: > We have a team of people (headed by Stewart) who are working on what > exact constitution changes need to be made, and we will be presenting > them at the next AGM to sort it all out. Anyone with an interest is > welcome to email him or the committee. The draft of changes will be presented to the membership as per the constitution (21 days notice for a special resolution). We hope to have enough open discussion to make the changes agreeable to everyone, and then have a new improved constitution for next year. Thanks again, -- Pia Smith From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri May 2 13:21:39 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (recluse103.arach.net.au [203.22.197.231]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h425LNoi017212 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 13:21:38 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CDE13BFC; Fri, 2 May 2003 13:22:41 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> Cc: ian.gilfillan@democrats.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 13:22:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:22:40 +0800 On Fri, 2 May 2003 09:26, Con Zymaris wrote: >...> Ian Loxton wrote: >...> I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat >...> spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is >...> introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. >...> In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: >...> 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about >...> the procurement of computer software for its operations, >...> have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a >...> public authority should use open source software in >...> preference to proprietary software. > Much as I'd like to see free software in widest possible deployment, > I don't believe this approach is the most effective. In essence, I agree. I think I would rather see partisan feather-ruffling legislation than no legislation, given that several proprietary vendors are outstanding in their field for a no-holds-barred no-quarter ends-justify-the-means approach to winning contracts and we have no fair counter to that. I base my approach on the idea that sailing in any direction is a step ahead of being becalmed. However, I'm willing to be convinced that it's a bad idea in this case, since it might be very hard to amend or excise bad legislation because many pollies wouldn't see the need to distinguish and would rather see the problem stay fixed, however badly. > It's also too easy for well leveraged vested interest groups to > (appear) justifiably antagonistic towards. > I would posit that the most effective case to be made in this country > (other countries will need different tactics) is to push for the > following: > > 1) All government bodies should only use technologies for which file > formats and network communication protocols are open and > documented. > 2) Preference should be given to technologies for which there are > multiple vendors, helping better position future government > purchasing tactically and avoiding vendor lock-in and price > gouging. > 3) Preference should be given to technologies for which there is a > case to be made that local industry can benefit, and that import > replacements can be reduced, helping improve our balance of < trade imbalance. Agree all around. How about suggesting an alternative like this: 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about the procurement of computer software for its operations, have regard to these principals: 17A. (1a) a public authority has a moral obligation to strongly prefer technologies and products for which all protocols, structures and formats are completely and accurately documented and that documentation is available to the public without restriction; and 17A. (1b) technologies should be preferred if they are available from multiple independent vendors, and requirements for technologies and products should as far as reasonably possible be laid out in terms of functionality rather than brands or individual products; and 17A. (1c) technologies should be preferred if they include an Australian component, and particularly substantial local creative input, or their adoption would favourably influence Australia's balance of trade. Not sure whether to explicitly state in (1a) that source code counts as implicit documentation, or rely on people having brains in exchange for keeping the wqording simpler. > Note, FOSS was not even mentioned. Aye, no target to shoot at, no zealots to castigate. And any attack will have to be considerably more subtle, especially if we can subtext the discussion of each point with its advantages. Is there such a thing as a comment field for legislation, or do we have to rely on people looking up Hansard or the like? Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's official Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows of a better palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From g@april.netcraft.com.au Fri May 2 13:40:05 2003 Received: from april.netcraft.com.au (april.netcraft.com.au [203.16.231.73]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h425dloi019287 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 13:40:04 +0800 Received: from april.netcraft.com.au (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by april.netcraft.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h425ddvh015768; Fri, 2 May 2003 15:09:39 +0930 Received: (from g@localhost) by april.netcraft.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h425ddUY015767; Fri, 2 May 2003 15:09:39 +0930 From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" To: Leon Brooks Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill Message-ID: <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 13:41:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:09:39 +0930 On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:22:40PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > have to be considerably more subtle, especially if we can subtext the > discussion of each point with its advantages. Is there such a thing as > a comment field for legislation, or do we have to rely on people > looking up Hansard or the like? > > Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's official > Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows of a better > palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: If you CC your comments to Andy.Johnstone@parliament.sa.gov.au as well, I'm sure he'd be interested -- it was him who originally contacted me with the draft bill and speech. -- Geoffrey D. Bennett, RHCE, RHCX geoffrey@netcraft.com.au Senior Systems Engineer http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/ NetCraft Australia Pty Ltd http://www.netcraft.com.au/linux/ From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri May 2 14:04:46 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (recluse103.arach.net.au [203.22.197.231]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4264Soi022041 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 14:04:46 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923DA13BFC; Fri, 2 May 2003 14:05:47 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill User-Agent: KMail/1.5 Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, Andy.Johnstone@parliament.sa.gov.au, ian.gilfillan@democrats.org.au References: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305021405.46983.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 2 14:05:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 14:05:46 +0800 On Fri, 2 May 2003 13:39, Geoffrey D. Bennett wrote: > On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:22:40PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: >> Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's >> official Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows >> of a better palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: > If you CC your comments to Andy.Johnstone@parliament.sa.gov.au as > well, I'm sure he'd be interested -- it was him who originally > contacted me with the draft bill and speech. Ta. I'll re-send him my original message. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From stewartsmith@mac.com Fri May 9 15:39:09 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.87]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h497cfoi010375 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 15:39:08 +0800 Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h497ccGm013117 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 00:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([210.49.254.166]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HELZWD00.U8Z for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 00:38:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Stewart Smith To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 0.5.4 (v22 Jaguar) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [Linux-aus] Constitution working group Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 9 15:40:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:38:56 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As you may be aware, there are some (minor) changes that need to be made to the Linux Australia constitution so that LA may function effectively. Any changes to the constitution will require approval at a general meeting (for details of what is required for a general meeting, see the const). I ask anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion about changes to the current constitution to please email me (privately) at stewart@linux.org.au - ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart@linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+u1sVFtJC9tN9SokRAnb/AJ4yBoMMKa6SSL22eI0VGRIjvlB55gCZASV4 zMWwPu3UdnFrOLv/Hb497j0= =EuhA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From twtshop3@sina.com Fri May 9 20:27:23 2003 Received: from sina.com ([211.162.239.117]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h49CQnoj009217 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 20:27:21 +0800 Message-Id: <200305091227.h49CQnoj009217@digital.linux.org.au> From: "twtshop3" To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Reply-To: twtshop3@sina.com X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: FoxMail 4.0 beta 2 [cn] Subject: [Linux-aus] =?GB2312?B?xOPSqrXEyO28/s7SsO/E49XStb3By6Gj?= Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 9 20:28:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:27:55 +0800 ...::www.RegLove.com::...
 
 
From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon May 12 08:34:16 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4C0Xsoi005291 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 08:34:16 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 12 May 2003 10:03:31 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Stewart Smith Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Constitution working group Message-Id: <20030512100345.64baf736.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.j4YU6/mOtPWA,=" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 12 08:35:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:03:45 +0930 --=.j4YU6/mOtPWA,= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I ask anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion > about changes to the current constitution to please email me > (privately) at stewart@linux.org.au I'll try again ;-P DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.j4YU6/mOtPWA,= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+vuvpNBhAwwyvg/kRAmkDAJ4528NZKgHLWlxUJBiSiD2Iflz8egCbBeJx sfI8m8CZR1PNY3ZQtf8eJ3g= =U5aR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.j4YU6/mOtPWA,=-- From market@assuredigit.com Tue May 13 00:56:33 2003 Received: from assuredigit.com ([61.171.226.116]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4CGtkoj013003 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 00:56:30 +0800 Message-Id: <200305121656.h4CGtkoj013003@digital.linux.org.au> From: "A.Lin" To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Content-Type: multipart/related;boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C313C9.968293C0";type="multipart/alternative";charset="GB2312" Reply-To: market@assuredigit.com X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Foxmail 4.2 [cn] Subject: [Linux-aus] =?GB2312?B?yc+6o7Ci0OvK/cLrvLzK9dPQz965q8u+?= Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 00:57:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:58:57 +0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C313C9.968293C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 上海阿须数码技术有限公司是国内首家专门从事数字水印、多媒体信息和网络安全、防 伪技术等软硬件开发的高科技归国创业公司，主要从事以下技术的研发与应用： a. 数字水印与信息隐藏 b. 多媒体数据版权保护 c. 电子文本（电子公文）、纸质文本、印刷材料的真伪鉴别与认证 d. 票据防伪、ID卡防伪、证件防伪与商标防伪 e. 数字公章（数字印章）、电子公章（电子印章）、数字签名与数字证书 f. 一维条形码、二维条形码与数字水印条形码 g. ADOBE PDF文件的创建、跟踪、真伪鉴别与认证 h. 电子商务与电子政务的相关技术 i. 网络信息安全、网络内容检测与过滤 j. 模式识别和图像处理的技术支持 欢迎联系与合作。如果您对这封邮件不感兴趣，请删除之，谢谢。 === 上海阿须数码技术有限公司 Shanghai AssureDigit Technologies Co. Ltd 电子邮件: market@assuredigit.com 主页：http://www.assuredigit.com 电话:021-63696077 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C313C9.968293C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 上海阿须数码技术有限公司
　
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上海阿须数码技术有限公司是国内首家专 门从事数字水印、多媒体信息和网络安全、防伪技术等软硬件开发的高科技归国创业公 司，主要从事以下技术的研发与应用：

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  • 一维条形码、二维条形码与 数字水印条形码

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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C313C9.968293C0-- From dstone@trinity.unimelb.edu.au Tue May 13 14:47:15 2003 Received: from epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (postfix@epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au [203.28.240.16]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4D6kloi005066 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 14:47:15 +0800 Received: by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 105) id BC4AE1801D; Tue, 13 May 2003 16:46:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FCE1801F for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 16:46:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au [203.28.240.3]) by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945391801D for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 16:46:41 +1000 (EST) Received: by roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 1280) id 4E21B17F10; Tue, 13 May 2003 16:46:39 +1000 (EST) From: Daniel Stone To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3cI6DWK3Xt33P8nt" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-GnuPG-Key: 3CED7EFD X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020316 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-26.2 required=6.0 tests=AWL,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 14:48:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:46:39 +1000 --3cI6DWK3Xt33P8nt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) --=20 Daniel Stone KDE: Konquering a desktop near you - http://www.kde.org --3cI6DWK3Xt33P8nt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wJTPcPClnTztfv0RAqkBAKCCAdbkOdOKNBFuZ1quuWIASKPtcACfQ7AP 521cRtrULecQCLvvVqxMFIs= =HNhG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3cI6DWK3Xt33P8nt-- From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue May 13 15:00:35 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4D706oi006605 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 15:00:35 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 13 May 2003 16:29:53 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Daniel Stone Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-Id: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.QTd9JG8e(gJt37" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 15:01:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:30:05 +0930 --=.QTd9JG8e(gJt37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only > seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that moment. In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... ;-) -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.QTd9JG8e(gJt37 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wJf3NBhAwwyvg/kRApiJAJ93HOabiA0NLGxq7wRU+2JGY7yZngCfXCQO hMydwU5coPiUqXqoTwCV9xM= =o9Tu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.QTd9JG8e(gJt37-- From jeremy@austux.net Tue May 13 15:01:51 2003 Received: from europa.austux.net (europa.austux.net [61.95.75.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4D71Toi006766 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 15:01:51 +0800 Received: by europa.austux.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DE19A501269; Tue, 13 May 2003 17:01:25 +1000 (EST) To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030513070125.GA26226@austux.net> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: jeremy@austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 15:04:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:01:25 +1000 --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:46:39PM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html >=20 > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems > to be a "spokeswoman". ;) Media have a habbit of doing that. They even manage to change the names of organisations. --=20 Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wJhFkbP49ojM5yARAiosAJ446yaHoXKbMOFOnbBNb5epVCpFpQCgnGP+ Lai+h+ii4JOqWqV1c+qMAng= =2nSO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- From dstone@trinity.unimelb.edu.au Tue May 13 15:06:42 2003 Received: from epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (postfix@epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au [203.28.240.16]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4D76Foi007442 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 15:06:41 +0800 Received: by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 105) id 6C2411801F; Tue, 13 May 2003 17:06:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1591801D; Tue, 13 May 2003 17:06:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au [203.28.240.3]) by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1065F1801F; Tue, 13 May 2003 17:06:07 +1000 (EST) Received: by roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 1280) id BB4DB17E45; Tue, 13 May 2003 17:06:06 +1000 (EST) From: Daniel Stone To: David Lloyd Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Mail-Followup-To: David Lloyd , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GLa4d69Ev2s1FDzP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-GnuPG-Key: 3CED7EFD X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020316 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-39.0 required=6.0 tests=AWL,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 15:07:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:06:06 +1000 --GLa4d69Ev2s1FDzP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only > > seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) >=20 > Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The > Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a > spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her > being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that > moment. >=20 > In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is > The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... Not incorrect per se, but not the full story ... ;) --=20 Daniel Stone Developer, Trinity College, University of Melbourne --GLa4d69Ev2s1FDzP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wJlecPClnTztfv0RAm6TAJ4ywNE+FssFV71OqTSf3smSZf2H5ACdG/Ue nrHHDRrw4wyoqeJhpYYQqPM= =NBJw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GLa4d69Ev2s1FDzP-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 13 15:23:17 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (recluse103.arach.net.au [203.22.197.231]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4D7Msoi009322 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 15:23:17 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421EC13CBF for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 15:29:15 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news: trinity User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131529.14364.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 15:24:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:29:14 +0800 On Tue, 13 May 2003 15:06, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: >>> The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared >>> in The Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia >>> now only seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) >> Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The >> Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a >> spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from >> her being President - it only gives her the role she was >> undertaking at that moment. >> In other words, there is only One God, however in his different >> roles is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... > Not incorrect per se, but not the full story ... ;) Looking at your domain, I guess you would be the one to know. (-: David's definition looks a bit Unitarian to me, or possibly similar to Watchtower's not-really-Trinity style. I've not kept up with these things much lately, I think we've frightened the local Witnesses away. I think something along the lines of the ancient idol, Dagon, would be more appropriate. Dagon was the Sun, but of an evening would hit the Western ocean (presumably with an enormous hiss), turn into a huge fish, swim under the world, and emerge from the Eastern ocean the next morning ready for a full day's shining. In keeping with the dualism common in such religions, the fish was often nominally female. I'm sure we could work something up with Linux running on a Sun box populated with Seagate Barracuda (ie fish) hard drives, but should we? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Tue May 13 16:04:25 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4D845oi014130 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 16:04:25 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4D83xpi025310 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 18:03:59 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4D83xIt025308 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Tue, 13 May 2003 18:03:59 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 16:05:28 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:03:59 +1000 On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The > Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a > spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her > being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that > moment. > > In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is > The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... Or.. The Mother, The Daughter and The power behind the Throne (although the later is slowly changing :) Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From admin12@ensim.rackshack.net Tue May 13 18:25:33 2003 Received: from ensim.rackshack.net ([207.44.136.5]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4DAP0oi029283 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 18:25:32 +0800 Received: (from admin12@localhost) by ensim.rackshack.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h4D6gCn25512 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Tue, 13 May 2003 01:42:12 -0500 Message-Id: <200305130642.h4D6gCn25512@ensim.rackshack.net> From: 0949243815@pchome.com.tw To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: [Linux-aus] 〗DVD紇100じ Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 18:26:48 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:42:12 -0500 〈臸з场Ρ-蛮垦.DVD紇 http://hocom.51.net/menu/index.htm 〈2002DVD紇砯╃芥100じ〈 http://hk.geocities.com/hocomdvd2000/dvd-shopping-auction.htm From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 13 21:39:35 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4DDcwoi017573 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 21:39:35 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B1513CBC for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 21:45:23 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> In-Reply-To: <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305132145.22803.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 13 21:40:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:45:22 +0800 On Tue, 13 May 2003 16:03, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > The Mother, The Daughter and The power behind the Throne > (although the later is slowly changing :) I thought it was the Maiden, the Mother and... the other one? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From brent.w@infosynergy.com.au Thu May 15 11:07:28 2003 Received: from mail.infosynergy.com.au (202-44-172-213.nexnet.net.au [202.44.172.213]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F372oi032346 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:07:27 +0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h4F36uL18762 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au.PROCMAIL; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:06:56 +1000 Received: from ernie.infosynergy.com.au (ernie.infosynergy.com.au [10.254.254.22]) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h4F36uS18758 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:06:56 +1000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... Thread-Index: AcMajwfGDyc6gJZgR2WVe+frXFLdYw== From: "Brent Wallis" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mail.infosynergy.com.au id h4F36uS18758 Subject: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 11:08:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:06:51 +1000 Hi, A quick follow up on the NOIE thread that started on the list a few weeks back. Below is an extract from the International Herald Tribune, (linked via /.) specifically: http://www.iht.com/articles/96289.html The Microsoft documents also show a sophisticated and complex lobbying program aimed at getting governments on their side. A confidential document titled "Open Source Software Government: World Wide Initiative" outlines the company's lobbying objectives. . One aim, the document says, is to "prevent adoption of procurement policies favoring OSS," or open-source software. Legislators in several European countries, including Denmark, France and Germany, have proposed laws that would encourage or require government offices to adopt open-source software. The article implies that M$ are actually doing what many of us surmised during the NOIE roadtrip, namely " the gathering of market intelligence via being your friend....." Australia is not mentioned specifically, but the general flavour has a familiar ring does it not? Any comments? Rgds Brent Wallis From chris@csamuel.org Thu May 15 11:47:55 2003 Received: from snoopy.pacific.net.au (snoopy.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F3lVoi004278 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47:54 +0800 Received: from sunny.pacific.net.au (sunny.pacific.net.au [203.2.228.40]) by snoopy.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4F3lVPc018344 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:47:31 +1000 Received: from wisma.pacific.net.au (wisma.pacific.net.au [210.23.129.72]) by sunny.pacific.net.au with ESMTP id h4F3lUQg015303 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:47:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (ppp79.dyn230.pacific.net.au [203.100.230.79]) by wisma.pacific.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4F3lTYZ014073 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:47:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8BA74011 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 23:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Chris Samuel To: User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 11:48:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:47:46 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Some more FUD from SCO: http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsMN4o1yjaOTJg85AQF1Jgf/R5pCVwlJTRPVQHXO3nX++msyjtRuXlT/ bVN4GOkHPjj5Dbi1vXc8oJmD360SZrQrvmt0s52L+7ys/7jFraBNcIMZZZR9BZfT 3ejP1cynndTkT302MIKxP2ydgm6N1IDXfeGcZ1sZOiSF0QUsHlAQhbzxorybV9mA 6uYwhSEHcYZk+IRTkzuzz55RdR1aksfT4Z/Ih5gj3Wv1mB66djUufxGYbDsaGMq8 S8+2cA2ZpN1sQJKcA3SlsCe+dsFGfUONzfZ9ED5FLWtLmWxOoA1KYV7lHdkVu3HZ 649rOnRMcvJnjNoasKhPddQi3jD62NRt6RQjO1gdkITbhdpn8rzyWg== =irAA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grog@lemis.com Thu May 15 11:49:17 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F3msoi004430 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:49:16 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BA96E51A78; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:18:36 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 11:50:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:18:36 +0930 --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday, 13 May 2003 at 16:46:39 +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems > to be a "spokeswoman". ;) This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no offence. A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+ww4UIubykFB6QiMRApi2AJ0ZpmKm45iTHJsYw7sy5Y6UollKcQCgkiTq NvMdgc0vMGVbTDDS4hS8jXE= =XsYr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Thu May 15 12:05:04 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4F44ioi006560 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 12:05:03 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:34:30 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Chris Samuel Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-Id: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.amxeM/(Mg)O:LY" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 12:06:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:34:45 +0930 --=.amxeM/(Mg)O:LY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRESS RELEASE ------------- Santa Cruz Operations - owner of the Unix (tm) Trade Mark - sues Santa Cruz Operations for illegal use of Unix (tm) code in the organisations' OpenLinux distribution... LMAO --=.amxeM/(Mg)O:LY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wxHdNBhAwwyvg/kRArEOAJ9HxD+UZRZKDnrcGrQrFt4Nw4PAegCfXDM/ Za2szIt+c1t0npF51tNda6M= =al9z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.amxeM/(Mg)O:LY-- From dstone@trinity.unimelb.edu.au Thu May 15 12:53:33 2003 Received: from epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (postfix@epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au [203.28.240.16]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F4r6oi011891 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 12:53:32 +0800 Received: by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 105) id 759141801F; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:53:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8416B1801D; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:53:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au [203.28.240.3]) by epistula.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBF01801F; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:52:57 +1000 (EST) Received: by roger.trinity.unimelb.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 1280) id 17F3A17F10; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:52:56 +1000 (EST) From: Daniel Stone To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Mail-Followup-To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KscVNZbUup0vZz0f" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-GnuPG-Key: 3CED7EFD X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020316 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-39.0 required=6.0 tests=AWL,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 12:54:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:52:55 +1000 --KscVNZbUup0vZz0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. > I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice > that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no > offence. Oh, I don't doubt that it was intended, at all. I also have quite some respect for Nathan, and I know he wouldn't do something like that deliberately; just an interesting aside. I actually read the article in dead tree form, then went online and found its URL; it's entirely possible, as you state below, that 'President' only appears online, because I certainly didn't see it in dead-tree, after reading it about 3 times. :) d --=20 Daniel Stone KDE: Konquering a desktop near you - http://www.kde.org --KscVNZbUup0vZz0f Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wx0ncPClnTztfv0RApl3AJ9zkLr+vTFW+elfafOklZNxrvhCAgCghcgz axk3enkbwiaO63N9qA2r7r0= =UM6S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KscVNZbUup0vZz0f-- From grog@lemis.com Thu May 15 13:01:34 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F515oi012819 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:01:33 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A83E351A78; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:30:49 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515050049.GH21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8sldprk+5E/pDEv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:02:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:30:49 +0930 --a8sldprk+5E/pDEv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 14:52:55 +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. >> I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice >> that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no >> offence. > > Oh, I don't doubt that it was intended, at all. I also have quite some > respect for Nathan, and I know he wouldn't do something like that > deliberately; just an interesting aside. > > I actually read the article in dead tree form, then went online and > found its URL; it's entirely possible, as you state below, that > 'President' only appears online, because I certainly didn't see it in > dead-tree, after reading it about 3 times. No, it wasn't on the web site either. Nathan has updated it. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --a8sldprk+5E/pDEv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+wx8BIubykFB6QiMRAvqlAJ41Gtqc9rTg03i1xLLSS96+I6mNeACbBFpH kT+5KG6fKy2KH5nNVdxcAUQ= =DAzH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8sldprk+5E/pDEv-- From jeremy@austux.net Thu May 15 13:02:49 2003 Received: from europa.austux.net (europa.austux.net [61.95.75.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F52Soi012984 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:02:49 +0800 Received: by europa.austux.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5C3D1501269; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:02:28 +1000 (EST) To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515050228.GB22686@austux.net> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: jeremy@austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:04:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:02:28 +1000 --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often > trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. Hence quotes like: "Ironically, it is the software from Microsoft that helps to run the Internet." I know for a fact that in the article where that appeared, it wasn't put there by the reporter. --=20 Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia http://www.jabber.org/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging. --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wx9kkbP49ojM5yARArhxAJ4np4lxIuCOPrzIMpNCOLhxfSdcSwCgqxiq y8RYdHQz/8FKTKEXnDJE86A= =zgGK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv-- From jmlists@chaoshouse.net Thu May 15 13:05:48 2003 Received: from trurl.chaoshouse.net ([203.56.250.130]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F55Koi013350 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:05:47 +0800 Received: from localhost (jess@localhost) by trurl.chaoshouse.net (8.11.4/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4F53sY00955; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:03:54 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: trurl.chaoshouse.net: jess owned process doing -bs From: Jessica Mayo X-X-Sender: To: David Lloyd cc: Chris Samuel , Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:06:28 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:03:54 +1000 (EST) On Thu, 15 May 2003, David Lloyd wrote: > PRESS RELEASE > ------------- > > Santa Cruz Operations - owner of the Unix (tm) Trade Mark - sues Santa > Cruz Operations for illegal use of Unix (tm) code in the organisations' > OpenLinux distribution... It's like that, isn't it? It seems OpenLinux sales didn't increase due to SCO/Caldera being the ones who hold the original X86 SysV Unix licences? I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be uninformed. :) -- Jess (Everything with a grin :) From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Thu May 15 13:15:37 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4F5F5oi014601 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:15:36 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:31 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Jessica Mayo Cc: chris@csamuel.org, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-Id: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: References: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="0VDBOEe26c+hz=.:" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:16:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930 --0VDBOEe26c+hz=.: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessica, > I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I > never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be > uninformed. :) The BSD war happened years ago. AT&T decided that it would have a go at the University of California, Berkeley Systems Division about use of Unix (tm) [it was AT&T's at the time] code in the BSD kernel. Eventually these two organisations settled this out of court, if I recall, and BSD released two versions of BSD: * BSD Encumbered - you had to have a Unix (tm) licence * BSD Lite - BSD rewrote all the stuff they had to take out I believe that this was around the time that an operating system called MSDOS appeared. These wars only served to destroy the Unix (tm) market. In my opinion, Unix (tm) is dying anyway ... DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --0VDBOEe26c+hz=.: Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wyJHNBhAwwyvg/kRAi9yAJ9lbziT9KQB0AKIa/yzX/YmF6pA/gCfUzCn xBt/gjSuBF7+Hbdc2QXCSQs= =lSDC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0VDBOEe26c+hz=.:-- From stewartsmith@mac.com Thu May 15 13:40:48 2003 Received: from mail016.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail016.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F5eOoi017405 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:40:48 +0800 Received: from saturn (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) by mail016.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4F5eIv22876; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:40:18 +1000 Received: from saturn ([127.0.0.1] ident=www-data) by saturn with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19GBan-0003NU-00; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:49 +1000 Received: from 130.194.13.104 (SquirrelMail authenticated user stewart) by 127.0.0.1 with HTTP; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:49 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news From: "Stewart Smith" To: In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:41:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:49 +1000 (EST) Greg groggy Lehey said: > This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I > mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice > that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no > offence. > > A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often > trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? :) > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------- Stewart Smith stewartsmith@mac.com ICQ: 6734154 Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 From jdub@perkypants.org Thu May 15 13:47:54 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-03.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.35]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4F5lToi018303 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:47:54 +0800 Received: (qmail 12869 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 05:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 15 May 2003 05:47:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0188C206 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23488-03 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E5F8C203 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:24 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9B63112B6B0; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:21 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515054721.GV28837@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Reply-By: Sun May 18 15:46:15 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:46:15 up 11 days, 22:06, 3 users, load average: 0.09, 0.14, 0.10 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:48:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:21 +1000 > I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, > could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? I would have no problems being in the paper again for a larger grant. ;-) (Report on what I've been doing with the hardware coming in this month's linmagau!) - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "I'm taking no part in your merry 5-way clusterfuck - sort that mess out between yourselves." - Alexander Viro From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Thu May 15 13:50:24 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4F5nvoi018618 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:50:24 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:19:42 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: "Stewart Smith" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-Id: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.VE7.gvCe/bgg4r" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:51:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:19:58 +0930 --=.VE7.gvCe/bgg4r Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stewart, > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this > scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some > *serious* money?:) /me wants a new Porsche ;-) -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.VE7.gvCe/bgg4r Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wyqGNBhAwwyvg/kRAnCoAJ9mSqmz1gLGNOGf0eu3ZkoOg2Uq7ACggSjm KpVaEPoZaBVF6yWwbKRkPUY= =vBm2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.VE7.gvCe/bgg4r-- From grog@lemis.com Thu May 15 13:56:03 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F5taoi019389 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:56:01 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BB3D251A94; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:25:34 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Stewart Smith Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515055534.GI21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:57:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:25:34 +0930 --FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 15:47:49 +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: > > Greg groggy Lehey said: > >> This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I >> mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice >> that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no >> offence. >> >> A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often >> trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. > > I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, > could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? > :) Heh, yes, I was wondering about that too. I suspect that part of the intention of the article was to show how you can achieve results with the expenditure of almost nothing. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+wyvWIubykFB6QiMRAkMBAJ9I+YCOErv5JvsWHukzYxB6r/KoKQCfffOB A7MWsOUVXMkUQ9oR9izuVFw= =TsX7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4-- From grog@lemis.com Thu May 15 13:57:36 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F5vEoi019609 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 13:57:35 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DF0C351A95; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:27:12 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: David Lloyd Cc: Stewart Smith , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030515055712.GJ21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 13:59:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:27:12 +0930 --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 15:19:58 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Stewart, > >> case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this >> scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some >> *serious* money?:) > > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) They don't work too well. My last one is broken: === grog@wantadilla (/dev/ttypa) /src/vinum 9 -> ping porsche PING porsche.lemis.com (192.109.197.143): 56 data bytes ping: sendto: Host is down ping: sendto: Host is down (etc) ping: sendto: Host is down ^C --- porsche.lemis.com ping statistics --- 20 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+wyw4IubykFB6QiMRAoTrAJ0Qa0zJMa2P/UJk/z6N9YQYisgkYwCggV/g LX80JIW2xuHx3toZAmahnvY= =CoIR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z-- From xfesty@computeraddictions.com.au Thu May 15 14:04:09 2003 Received: from quack.2xstreams.com ([216.158.96.65]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F63ioi020460 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:04:09 +0800 Received: from computeraddictions.com.au (mail.arnoulmedia.com [150.101.232.134]) by phunkrepublic.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4F63MN22416; Wed, 14 May 2003 23:03:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Stewart Smith" , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: David Lloyd From: Ryan Verner In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 0.5.4 (v22 Jaguar) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 14:05:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:33:15 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:19 PM, David Lloyd wrote: David, > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) What happened to the old one? R > -- > Microbits Linux Technician > > 08 8362 9220 > > - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 ICQ: 76626240 IRC: xf / irc.oublinet.net PH: +61 418 186 604 EQ: Mummer (Bard), Tholuxe In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+wy2mRcxk39PM6wcRAjijAJsE1OD1S5eFkQp/CiYts3ZNCnHPDACfdC5d ilMryliVWXIAkBbFFevd+Fs= =luvA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog@li.org Thu May 15 14:34:37 2003 Received: from IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com ([12.104.145.50]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F6YCoi024005 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:34:36 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([172.17.2.149]) by IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4F6P3u06432 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 00:25:03 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4F6bnkt002041; Thu, 15 May 2003 02:37:49 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h4F6bkmq002037; Thu, 15 May 2003 02:37:47 -0400 Message-Id: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: David Lloyd cc: Jessica Mayo , chris@csamuel.org, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from David Lloyd of "Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930." <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 14:35:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:37:46 -0400 dlloyd@microbits.com.au said: >> I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >> never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >> uninformed. :) >> The BSD war happened years ago..... No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Thu May 15 14:37:43 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4F6bHoi024364 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:37:42 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Thu, 15 May 2003 16:07:05 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Jon maddog Hall Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-Id: <20030515160720.22edb3bb.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.0ZfQ_,It+,c9Sk" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 14:38:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:07:20 +0930 --=.0ZfQ_,It+,c9Sk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon, > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets > interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. I'm not so sure about that...and it's not entirely true that there are no large companies playing with any of the BSD's either. I'm sure that IBM does for example. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.0ZfQ_,It+,c9Sk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+wzWgNBhAwwyvg/kRAg0eAJ9f5AUuwoH0Zgf5qGjf7Tub3RGJrACfeMrd vurrDATy9bHkRnJ0fyC4qeE= =kgz7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.0ZfQ_,It+,c9Sk-- From chris.debenham@sun.com Thu May 15 14:48:39 2003 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4F6mGoi025633 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48:38 +0800 Received: from war.Aus.Sun.COM ([129.158.80.191]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3p2+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06293; Wed, 14 May 2003 23:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (hackbox [129.158.10.227]) by war.Aus.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h4F6lwaY021539; Thu, 15 May 2003 16:47:59 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> From: Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux sparc64; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030508 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon maddog Hall CC: David Lloyd , Jessica Mayo , chris@csamuel.org, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 14:49:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:48:01 +1000 What about apple?... Oh wait, you said 'deep' pockets :-) Jon maddog Hall wrote: > dlloyd@microbits.com.au said: > >>>I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >>>never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >>>uninformed. :) > > >>>The BSD war happened years ago..... > > > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets interested > in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. > > md > > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ,-_|\ Systems Engineer - eSun E-mail : chris.debenham@sun.com / \ Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd. Direct : +61 (2) 9844 5188 \_,-\_* 828 Pacific Highway Phone : +61 (2) 9844 5000 v Gordon, N.S.W. 2072 Fax : +61 (2) 9844 5189 Mobile : +61 (40) 9844 514 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!! From stewartsmith@mac.com Thu May 15 18:46:33 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FAkCoi018924 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 18:46:32 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4FAk51H001972 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 03:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4FAfYFP023938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Thu, 15 May 2003 03:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: David Lloyd From: Stewart Smith In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 18:47:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:42:23 +1000 On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:49 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) Try a Jag, some of them have PowerPC processors in them and porting Linux to it would be easier due to the fact that Linux already runs on PPC..... :) ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith@mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From stewartsmith@mac.com Thu May 15 18:46:36 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-85.apple.com [17.250.248.85]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FAkFoi018933 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 18:46:35 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4FAkC1e018851 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 03:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4FAdAFP023604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Thu, 15 May 2003 03:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: Jeff Waugh From: Stewart Smith In-Reply-To: <20030515054721.GV28837@lazarus> Message-Id: <93738755-86C1-11D7-908B-00039346F142@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 18:49:56 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:39:59 +1000 On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:47 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I would have no problems being in the paper again for a larger grant. > ;-) > > (Report on what I've been doing with the hardware coming in this > month's > linmagau!) That's great, hope we can help the GNOME project further. I seem to be further impressed with every update. I'm starting to get a big warm and fuzzy feeling about how the grants scheme is going :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart@linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From chris@csamuel.org Thu May 15 20:13:56 2003 Received: from snoopy.pacific.net.au (snoopy.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FCDToi029019 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 20:13:56 +0800 Received: from sunny.pacific.net.au (sunny.pacific.net.au [203.2.228.40]) by snoopy.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4FCDAPc003605; Thu, 15 May 2003 22:13:10 +1000 Received: from wisma.pacific.net.au (wisma.pacific.net.au [210.23.129.72]) by sunny.pacific.net.au with ESMTP id h4FCDAQg006404; Thu, 15 May 2003 22:13:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (ppp160.dyn141.pacific.net.au [210.23.141.160]) by wisma.pacific.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4FCD7YZ014398; Thu, 15 May 2003 22:13:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA9244F6; Thu, 15 May 2003 08:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: Jon maddog Hall , David Lloyd Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: Jessica Mayo , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 20:14:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:10:00 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 4:37 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets > interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. I believe that SCO is bound by the 1994 settlement between USL Inc (then owned by Novell) and UCB which released BSD 4.4 Lite as completely unencumbered. I don't think even SCO would be dumb enough to try and reopen a lawsuit when it's already been settled that the BSD 4.4 Lite release was unencumbered. I believe that all the BSD's (including BSDI, if they are still going) are based on BSD 4.4 Lite. Chris (bought the t-shirt, literally :-)) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsODmI1yjaOTJg85AQHhVAgAmEA9vBLbt225ST/07dc7DxzF2zE+WUTo t6Qt8AOGPLNgovWulzmyEIUvp+m2gSG3ZybXeMB2Rxa14ZZWzaBvd/I12uWwvvEY KbTBguSZTNC/XGj1X4dDQ73FZEB6hhcoIDeBVJmVyRx7WwO50nBia/GaWgoo0Cxn hdnNR42j1D6Qr1WAOFakSheK5y1UlZ/dDoBuwwoq4VCmDYv9shEMPSZ9SX8je3kS g+WHGZp2HhUubnfRY0dG8RWCYFEkd3uDnnz4DvKmXmEZ+0e6Qj5VASeRWzM8h9H2 tag3poxr5kY8UxKU/3hMx+wnhwizF5yZ0lpV3oQA/Ps1SnSJyrrCCQ== =x+5O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog@li.org Thu May 15 20:57:44 2003 Received: from IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com ([12.104.145.50]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FCv2oi001266 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 20:57:43 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([172.17.2.149]) by IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4FClqu13410 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 06:47:52 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4FD0g2l001323; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:00:42 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h4FD0fmn001319; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:00:41 -0400 Message-Id: <200305151300.h4FD0fmn001319@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: David Lloyd cc: Jessica Mayo , chris@csamuel.org, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from David Lloyd of "Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930." <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 20:58:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:00:41 -0400 dlloyd@microbits.com.au said: > I'm not so sure about that...and it's not entirely true that there are > no large companies playing with any of the BSD's either. I'm sure that > IBM does for example. Even if IBM is "playing with any of the BSD's", they have not stated that BSD is part of their strategic future the same way they have with Linux. If they had, then SCO would be going after BSD the same way. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:00:13 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FCxhoi001565 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:00:13 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F0D13CBC for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:01:00 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> In-Reply-To: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 21:01:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:00:59 +0800 On Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47, Chris Samuel wrote: > Some more FUD from SCO: > http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:01:37 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FD19oi001761 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:01:37 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4236113CBC for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:02:26 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305152102.25927.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 21:03:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:02:25 +0800 On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:03, Ryan Verner wrote: > On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:19 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> /me wants a new Porsche ;-) > What happened to the old one? Physics, in the form of a tree? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:02:38 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FD2Hoi001900 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:02:38 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9E013CBC for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:03:33 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 21:04:39 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:03:33 +0800 On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > What about apple?... Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From maddog@li.org Thu May 15 21:03:55 2003 Received: from IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com ([12.104.145.50]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FD3Toi002056 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:03:53 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([172.17.2.149]) by IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4FCsJu13530 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 06:54:19 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4FD6w2l001384; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:06:59 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h4FD6t7B001380; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:06:55 -0400 Message-Id: <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Chris Samuel cc: Jon maddog Hall , David Lloyd , Jessica Mayo , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Samuel of "Thu, 15 May 2003 22:10:00 +1000." <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 21:07:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:06:55 -0400 SCO's current suit is based on code getting into Linux that arrived AFTER all the AT&T hubbub. Their claim is that "unprofessional programmers" did not check the sources of their code, and therefore there are pieces of code that arrived (through the kernel and the libraries) that belong to SCO. Whether this is true or not does not stop a suit from happening. Trust me, if the BSDs were seen as likely to snuff out the commercial AT&T code stream and royalties, then SCO would be suing BSD just to see what they could get out of it, whether or not there was any legal relevance. Here in the USA, you sue first, and ask questions later. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From jeremy@austux.net Thu May 15 21:19:22 2003 Received: from europa.austux.net (europa.austux.net [61.95.75.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FDIwoi003970 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:19:22 +0800 Received: by europa.austux.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 53643501269; Thu, 15 May 2003 23:18:58 +1000 (EST) To: Jon maddog Hall Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: <20030515131858.GC25602@austux.net> References: <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: jeremy@austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 21:20:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:18:58 +1000 On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 09:06:55AM -0400, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > Here in the USA, you sue first, and ask questions later. In some cases it's the same here. Public liability insurance has gone through the roof as of recent years. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia There are 10 types of people - those who understand binary and those who don't. From maddog@li.org Thu May 15 21:20:59 2003 Received: from IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com ([12.104.145.50]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FDKQoi004157 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:20:58 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([172.17.2.149]) by IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4FDB7u13888 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 07:11:07 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4FDNl2l001506; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:24:02 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h4FDNj5w001502; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:23:45 -0400 Message-Id: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Leon Brooks cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@IPOfCard1.guest-tek.com Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from Leon Brooks of "Thu, 15 May 2003 21:03:33 +0800." <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 15 21:23:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:23:45 -0400 >Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Actually, when Sun got the System V code, it was my understanding that they ripped it apart, and worked very hard to make it a decent operating system, replacing a good deal of the kernel code, and basically just keeping the system call interfaces. The port of Sun's customers from SunOS to Solaris (often called Slowaris in the early days) was one of the low points of Sun's history. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From lesbell@lesbell.com.au Fri May 16 06:47:04 2003 Received: from bifrost.lesbell.com.au (ffps.lesbell.com.au [203.35.202.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FMkToi031932 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 06:47:04 +0800 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution To: Leon Brooks Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Les Bell" X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Bifrost/Les Bell and Associates Pty Ltd(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 16/05/2003 08:26:15 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 06:54:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:25:57 +1000 Leon Brooks wrote: >> After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? << You think it's confusing - imagine how *I* feel: I do work under contract for IBM, I'm a Caldera OpenLearning certified Master Instructor, and worst of all, I'm a SCO shareholder. I would have dumped the stock ages ago, except for some US IRS paperwork I forgot to file with eTrade, and now the stock is worth so little, it's worth more to me to hold onto it for the dubious satisfaction of being a disgusted SCO shareholder. I don't think SCO has a friend in the world, at this point. I know companies who have migrated from SCO unix to Linux (specifically, Red Hat), and I'll bet some of their biggest customers, who were undoubtedly considering the same move, have brought forward their planning. With respect to their statements of the last few days: I've never seen an entire corporation foaming at the mouth before. Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au] From president@linux.org.au Fri May 16 06:40:33 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-04.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4FMe1oi031206 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 06:40:25 +0800 Received: (qmail 28273 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 22:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 15 May 2003 22:39:54 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277FF8C203 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 08:39:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00629-01 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 08:39:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC148C164 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 08:39:55 +1000 (EST) From: Pia Smith To: linux aus Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Linux Australia Message-Id: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 06:57:10 2003 X-Original-Date: 16 May 2003 08:19:03 +1000 Hi all, As per our new Grant Scheme here is application number two :) Please see bottom of email for committee comments: -----Forwarded Message----- From: Kimberly Shelt To: committee@linux.org.au, pia@linux.org.au Subject: [LACTTE] Application Date: 08 May 2003 15:59:54 +1000 As per the guidelines please find below an application for contributioni/supporting funds from LA to LinMagAU. *** Date: 7th March 2003 Project Name: LinmagAU.org Aim of Project: :Continue on line magazine production (currently monthly edition) :Investigate ability to move to fortnightly editions :Create proto-type hard copy for distribution throughout LUGS (within 3 months) General Aims: :Promote various Linux/OSS/Community related projects/people within Australia :Encourage penetration of both Linux/OSS knowledge and usage within the computing community. Person Responsible for Request: Kimberly Shelt (kim@linmagau.org) Request: : $200 per month : $? per click through (Upper limit per month) (On line) On going hosting and bandwidth charges. Associated costs (ie telephone) for contact with vendors/advertisers, authors and other contributors. (Hard Copy) Purchase of paper, printing needs, industrial stapler etc (for inhouse build) Printing costs for front page (professional cover) Associated costs (ie telephone, postage) for contact with LUGS/distribution, advertisers, authors and other contributors. --------------------------------------- Currently the magazine is running banner advertising for many organisations at no cost.. the suggestion of $? being paid per click through on the banners has been raised. Stats for the current edition Linux Australia home page Views 3644 Clicks 12 Linux Australia users groups page Views 3770 Clicks 12 This month has been the busiest so far, 300% improvement on last month, with many stories being taken up by large on line news sites, including the on line IT spaces of SMH & The Age. We have been approached by several LUGS, organisations and companies with regards to banner advertising, and general support and in the coming weeks will be investigating either "charged advertising" or "tiered sponsorship" Currently we received consistent support (by way of links to articles) from the following : LinuxToday, LWN, SMH & The Age (on line) and usually something in Slashdot. Some sites that have linked to the mag over the last few months::debian, osnews, (several) KDE sites, pclinuxonline, openbsd sites, whist many of these sites are "overseas" based, the number of members (with .au or .nz mailing addresses) joining the site outweighs others. It is obvious we are reaching a fair proportion of users, a small group of "small business" etc, however I do not think we have as yet tapped the vendor area :). which of course is my next foray :) ** Thanks Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org _______________________________________________ The committee have discussed this and we'd like to go ahead for several reasons: - linmagau fills the community newspaper role. It provides a service and a community focused hub of information. We believe with a little more support it will prove to be an excellent resource. - Linux Australia benefits directly, as we have a banner on linmagau that receives click throughs every month. We should support those that support us. Ammendments: - $200 per month only (click-through incentive encourages Linux Australia banners all over the place :) so we're not as keen on this) If anyone disagrees with this then please post within the next two weeks, or we will assume it is accepted by the membership, and go ahead. Positive comments are welcome too :) Thanks and regards, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From brent.w@infosynergy.com.au Fri May 16 07:48:58 2003 Received: from mail.infosynergy.com.au (202-44-172-213.nexnet.net.au [202.44.172.213]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FNmYoi006189 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 07:48:57 +0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h4FNmS101715 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au.PROCMAIL; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:48:28 +1000 Received: from ernie.infosynergy.com.au (ernie.infosynergy.com.au [10.254.254.22]) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h4FNmSS01711 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:48:28 +1000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Thread-Index: AcMbNjojtVw6ak5rSNS0WllKuP33SgAA0/ow From: "Brent Wallis" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mail.infosynergy.com.au id h4FNmSS01711 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 07:49:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:48:23 +1000 Hi, Les Bell said: >I know companies who have migrated from SCO unix to Linux (specifically, Red Hat), >and I'll bet some of their biggest customers, who were undoubtedly >considering the same move, have brought forward their planning. We deal in the SME sector, and have consulted on quite a few jobs in the last 24 months doing what you describe.... ie: Open Server -> RH Linux, Unixware -> RH Linux One particular upbeat (for us at least) move from RedHat in the last few weeks has been the release of the AS, ES, WS systems set, which has enabled us to approach the core ISV we resell an ERP package for, in order to encourage them to support their product on Linux. For this particular ISV, the idea of an extended support cycle has appeal. The ISV in question are conservative to say the least,and our lobbying has been long and hard ... we were almost there..... But the latest SCO move could kill all the hard work. The ISV is already a little edgy about the change required, the thought of the platform being subverted (albeit a distant maybe) will probably make them wait even longer before committing. In a tough IT market, who can blame them. Herein lies the problem for us at least. Could it be that this move was intended to scare the ISV sector as well? If it was, they have damn well gone a long way to achieving it in my small neck of the planet. (grr, where did I put my knee pads....;-) BW From chris.debenham@sun.com Fri May 16 07:56:19 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4FNtpoi007029 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 07:56:18 +0800 Received: from war.Aus.Sun.COM ([129.158.80.191]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4FNtjsa009951; Thu, 15 May 2003 17:55:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (hackbox [129.158.10.227]) by war.Aus.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h4FNthaY026734; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:55:44 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3EC428F0.3090201@sun.com> From: Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux sparc64; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030508 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leon Brooks CC: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 07:57:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:55:28 +1000 Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > >>What about apple?... > > > Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: > > Cheers; Leon > SunOS was BSD-derived, but Solaris is System V derived. But even so we previously bought complete UNIX IP rights from SCOs predecessors (perpetual license and all that) so we can make/ship derivative products without issue. /me dons flame-proof suit If you want a platform safe from IP issues don't forget Solaris x86 :-) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ,-_|\ Systems Engineer - eSun E-mail : chris.debenham@sun.com / \ Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd. Direct : +61 (2) 9844 5188 \_,-\_* 828 Pacific Highway Phone : +61 (2) 9844 5000 v Gordon, N.S.W. 2072 Fax : +61 (2) 9844 5189 Mobile : +61 (40) 9844 514 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!! From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Fri May 16 08:04:09 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4G03koi008227; Fri, 16 May 2003 08:04:08 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:33:28 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Pia Smith Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-Id: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.3P1zCpDyBXF?sO" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 08:05:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:33:46 +0930 --=.3P1zCpDyBXF?sO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pia, > - $200 per month only (click-through incentive encourages Linux > Australia banners all over the place :) so we're not as keen on this) > > If anyone disagrees with this then please post within the next two > weeks, or we will assume it is accepted by the membership, and go > ahead. Positive comments are welcome too :) How about: $200 per month with a [half-yearly | yearly | some time period] review ..that is to say I think we should either : 1) set an explicit date at which the sponsorship stops - I don't like that idea 2) set a date or time period to review the sponsorship Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? We probably should ask all those we sponsor to provide some type of summary of how they've used the sponsorship so that we can explain to our members and the public what we're doing and supporting. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.3P1zCpDyBXF?sO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xCriNBhAwwyvg/kRAjptAJ4m9vqhosBng5Pwm9w2WIFeZQ5tSwCfZIBw 5WoM3vUX7ut5/FtwFAz3A7A= =qE7O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.3P1zCpDyBXF?sO-- From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Fri May 16 08:11:23 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4G0Atoi009061 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 08:11:23 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:40:30 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Stewart Smith Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-Id: <20030516094046.51d50c5b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: References: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.krMv0hozMs_.0o" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 08:12:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:40:46 +0930 --=.krMv0hozMs_.0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stewart, > Try a Jag, some of them have PowerPC processors in them and porting > Linux to it would be easier due to the fact that Linux already runs on On the subject of cars, a guy called Toby Corkindale who used to live in Adelaide managed to get a Commodore car speaking to his Linux laptop: * http://www.linuxsa.org.au/mailing-list/2002-03/220.html ..his e-mail is different now though. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.krMv0hozMs_.0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xCyGNBhAwwyvg/kRAtUVAKCOH1tiRLFjEsMi3XFog93D6T3DJACfbLIr p8QE/8nYJ1SSalZgqDyGjhc= =iOVp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.krMv0hozMs_.0o-- From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Fri May 16 09:07:35 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G171oi015061 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:07:35 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4G16xah024228 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:07:00 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4G16xJJ024226 for linux-aus@linux.org.au; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:06:59 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 09:08:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:06:59 +1000 On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 09:33:46AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > How about: > $200 per month with a [half-yearly | yearly | some time period] review > ..that is to say I think we should either : > > 1) set an explicit date at which the sponsorship stops > - I don't like that idea > > 2) set a date or time period to review the sponsorship I am ok with either.. also it occurs to me that I didn't include in the application, something about "if the mag folds" I promise not to keep taking the money. :) of course this is not going to happen because so many people are going to read this, and put up their hands to help :) > > Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how > she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? > > We probably should ask all those we sponsor to provide some type of > summary of how they've used the sponsorship so that we can explain to > our members and the public what we're doing and supporting. Shame on you you didn't read the LA update in the mag this month did you :) http://www.linmagau.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=88&page=2 The applicant must: (Points 5,6,7) Be responsible for supplying Linux Australia with any necessary receipts Provide Linux Australia with a brief report as to how the project went, results, etc Be responsible for updating the project page with how the funds were used (this is to come) Thanks LA Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Fri May 16 09:41:17 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4G1eloi018733 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:41:17 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:10:21 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Kimberly Shelt Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-Id: <20030516111036.4324629f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.o.IQ0jv'Gn:S2Z" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 09:42:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:10:36 +0930 --=.o.IQ0jv'Gn:S2Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim, > Shame on you you didn't read the LA update in the mag this month did > you :) Oh behave...the Palantir was malfunctioning at the time. All I could dial was a picture of some guy's "Eye" :( -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.o.IQ0jv'Gn:S2Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xEGXNBhAwwyvg/kRAgsFAJ9YaNPdPI1VuNCmL3S3Zw7+jBQV5gCdFcfk Zj2+HIqu9Mc2/ouTsQhw9wE= =3tL1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.o.IQ0jv'Gn:S2Z-- From grog@lemis.com Fri May 16 09:41:21 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G1eqoi018743 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:41:19 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2A12051A98; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:10:50 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Samuel , Jon maddog Hall , Leon Brooks Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YBGzgpgHAney5ErF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 09:44:27 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:10:50 +0930 --YBGzgpgHAney5ErF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 22:10:00 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 15 May 2003 4:37 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >> No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The >> real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets >> interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. > > I believe that SCO is bound by the 1994 settlement between USL Inc > (then owned by Novell) and UCB which released BSD 4.4 Lite as > completely unencumbered. > > I don't think even SCO would be dumb enough to try and reopen a > lawsuit when it's already been settled that the BSD 4.4 Lite release > was unencumbered. More to the point, SCO (well, Caldera at the time) released all precursors to BSD, including notably Research UNIX up to the Seventh Edition, and also 32V, under a BSD license on 20 January 2002. As a result, BSD is no longer encumbered. See http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ for more details. Yes, it's a pity they don't have it on their own web site, but there's no doubt in anybody's minds (except possibly SCO's new lawyers) that it happened. > I believe that all the BSD's (including BSDI, if they are still > going) are based on BSD 4.4 Lite. Correct. And yes, BSD[Ii] isn't completely dead yet. It belongs to Wind River Systems. On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 9:06:55 -0400, Jon Maddog Hall wrote: > > Trust me, if the BSDs were seen as likely to snuff out the > commercial AT&T code stream and royalties, then SCO would be suing > BSD just to see what they could get out of it, whether or not there > was any legal relevance. Absolutely. That was the background for the BSDI lawsuit ten years ago. On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 21:00:59 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47, Chris Samuel wrote: >> Some more FUD from SCO: > >> http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 > > After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the > hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. > > I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? I think it's pretty clear that SCO's sales model for Linux didn't work. The real reason for the suspension is almost certainly that it wasn't selling, but by stating these reasons they can gain more credibility in their lawsuit. I must say that this particular lawsuit has reached a level of stupidity which far exceeds anything I've seen before. The stock market doesn't, though. Take a look at http://ir.sco.com/stock.cfm for one good reason for the lawsuit. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --YBGzgpgHAney5ErF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+xEGiIubykFB6QiMRAvMMAJ9JynUlzlmZzTLqwJPRlcHnGOH85gCfTA1Q L1Psd+AoK+kTgQlfMnUo4c0= =LxVQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YBGzgpgHAney5ErF-- From grog@lemis.com Fri May 16 09:43:46 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G1hMoi019012 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:43:45 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1734151A98; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:13:20 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: David Lloyd Cc: Jessica Mayo , chris@csamuel.org, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: <20030516014320.GZ21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YPOU9eFKIy6Wf5kE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 09:47:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:13:20 +0930 --YPOU9eFKIy6Wf5kE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 14:44:42 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Jessica, > >> I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >> never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >> uninformed. :) > > The BSD war happened years ago. AT&T decided that it would have a go at > the University of California, Berkeley Systems Division about use of > Unix (tm) [it was AT&T's at the time] code in the BSD kernel. No, the suit was initially filed against BSDI. They brought in UCB (which had a significant law school; what idiots) shortly before settlement was reached. I don't see this as a coincidence. The time frame was 1992 to 1994. > Eventually these two organisations settled this out of court, if I > recall, and BSD CSRG > released two versions of BSD: > > I believe that this was around the time that an operating system > called MSDOS appeared. These wars only served to destroy the Unix > (tm) market. No, MS-DOS appeared in 1981. At the time, 4BSD was in the early development stages. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --YPOU9eFKIy6Wf5kE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+xEI3IubykFB6QiMRAhSZAKCkpAZtb50kUqqyO/h1wyQCmbd3twCeNkvE YnVG40zqE7/flRZGz/SjIdw= =Z+LR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YPOU9eFKIy6Wf5kE-- From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Fri May 16 09:51:52 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4G1pToi020059 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 09:51:52 +0800 Received: from orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au by mail.microbits.com.au; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:21:11 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-Id: <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.memDb6/yR:wqTs" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 09:52:24 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:21:28 +0930 --=.memDb6/yR:wqTs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg, > I must say that this particular lawsuit has reached a level of > stupidity which far exceeds anything I've seen before. The stock > market doesn't, though. Take a look at http://ir.sco.com/stock.cfm > for one good reason for the lawsuit. But the stock market is rarely "sane". This sounds like the lull before the storm...at the moment everyone's holding onto their SCO shares to see what's happening...and then suddenly...WHOOSH...and everyone goes: "Oh !@#$ - they _are_ going down the gurgler...let's all sell"... *sigh* We do realise that "S" stands for "Stupid". DSL (1) Maybe SCO could be as their first name's sake and just GIVE us the damned code for Christmas. -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.memDb6/yR:wqTs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xEQgNBhAwwyvg/kRAmXpAJwN6QqXE8r5pwetIn5g7eeZ526lxwCfX5Sb mj7sWN6Wmj+fNZGxpepTlEg= =sO6M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.memDb6/yR:wqTs-- From michaeld@senet.com.au Fri May 16 10:18:44 2003 Received: from saturn.senet.com.au (saturn.senet.com.au [203.56.239.210]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G2IIoi023170 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 10:18:44 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by saturn.senet.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4G2ICWT010547; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:48:12 +0930 (CST) Received: from 203.202.88.90 ( [203.202.88.90]) as user michaeld@mail.senet.com.au by webmail.senet.com.au with HTTP; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:48:12 +091800 Message-ID: <1053051492.3ec44a64c01c7@webmail.senet.com.au> From: michaeld@senet.com.au To: David Lloyd Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 203.202.88.90 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 10:19:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:48:12 +091800 Quoting David Lloyd : > (1) Maybe SCO could be as their first name's sake and just GIVE us the > damned code for Christmas. Perhaps it's really the Satan Cruise Organisation. -- Michael Davies Linux.Conf.Au Adelaide Jan 12-17 2004 michaeld [at] senet.com.au Australia's Premier Linux Conference mirky on irc http://lca2004.linux.org.au ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through SE Net Webmail http://webmail.senet.com.au From andrew@operationaldynamics.com.au Fri May 16 15:10:34 2003 Received: from procyon.mobeous.net (dyn56.syd1.homedsl.pacific.net.au [203.100.232.56]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4G7A1oi022343 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 15:10:33 +0800 Received: (qmail 31198 invoked by uid 1000); 16 May 2003 07:09:14 -0000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... From: Andrew Cowie To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Operational Dynamics Message-Id: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4- Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 15:11:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 16 May 2003 17:09:14 +1000 [This is *not* a M$ bashing story] On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 13:06, Brent Wallis wrote: > The Microsoft documents also show a sophisticated and > complex lobbying program aimed at getting governments > on their side. In related news, those of you who watch Google News will have seen a link to this story: http://www.internetwk.com/breakingNews/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=10000073 Its a bit to the effect that, in the case of *large* government and educational contracts, Microsoft may be ready to offer their software for free when the competition is "low-cost or zero-cost". This isn't likely to become their mass market approach any time soon (certainly not in the commercial sector!) but I thought it was interesting that Microsoft is responding to the one striking argument that Free and Open Source alternatives offer - the free part. I only bring this up in the context of continuing points raised by Jeff Waugh and others: we have to compete on the quality of our actions [products], not our rhetoric. So to all the developers out there, keep up the good work. Of course, this could be nothing more than a trial balloon, or a trial toilet. AfC [What on earth were they thinking: Portable Internet Enabled Toilets? Is that so like you can log on while, er, laying a log? If you don't know what I'm talking about, see http://www.web-user.co.uk/news/article/?afw_source_key=%7b5BF50883-41F4-4CF3-9F76-83A761DBF3CC%7d Brings a new meaning to clogging up the network. iLoo. Now THAT's a product that has Open Source potential :) I can see it now: http://linux.conf.loo ] -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew@operationaldynamics.com.au From chris@csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:36:42 2003 Received: from snoopy.pacific.net.au (snoopy.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G7aKoi025209 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 15:36:42 +0800 Received: from sunny.pacific.net.au (sunny.pacific.net.au [203.2.228.40]) by snoopy.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4G7aJPc022235 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:19 +1000 Received: from wisma.pacific.net.au (wisma.pacific.net.au [210.23.129.72]) by sunny.pacific.net.au with ESMTP id h4G7aJQg014346 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (ppp203.dyn132.pacific.net.au [210.23.132.203]) by wisma.pacific.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4G7aHYZ018888 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5097403B for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 03:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 15:37:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:29:31 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: > > No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch > to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Actually, when Sun got > the System V code, it was my understanding that they ripped it apart, and > worked very hard to make it a decent operating system, replacing a good > deal of the kernel code, and basically just keeping the system call > interfaces. My understanding was one of the major reasons that Sun went System V for Solaris was for the SMP scalability. Apparently SunOS's MP didn't quite cut it. > The port of Sun's customers from SunOS to Solaris (often called Slowaris in > the early days) was one of the low points of Sun's history. Yeah, I remember getting 4.1.3_u1 and then being extremely happy to receive 4.1.4 and hoping that Sun would get the message and a 4.1.5 would appear. Oh well, at least now there's a variety of Linux and *BSD's for their hardware. :-) Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSTW41yjaOTJg85AQE2mgf/ZNRr62d3ReS93V3rkaFVdONwXOBDrKHb mW9nFbsTEZjHxiv4o10iA0XZ17aPm4P8bSYhDusfMHmTYffeVCrEOAizMmQtz7i6 FqCUFCBosSt0zYwZ6WHlOiZbJ+lK4vZE078ocGuWr7AxEJqYjJlzOGK07L4aSW0r tdTejWZBhr8mdqjcFRlKkErNmBq1xJEGykBtN3T/+Pmz3fAd2XdOoP4ussAtK6VM 15H7Fj3pjfjOQaqGHi0NFoYIQrOT6INpoFd/dJCTloM7j4/JLZ1dRlnj8bbfKJDf YpiW4eu0SBmFyovVBDvmMMwMS3txRiyngQvpQx/KaSSSBMTRi9n2Cg== =CgLa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris@csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:36:42 2003 Received: from snoopy.pacific.net.au (snoopy.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G7aJoi025208 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 15:36:42 +0800 Received: from sunny.pacific.net.au (sunny.pacific.net.au [203.2.228.40]) by snoopy.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4G7aJPc022232 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:19 +1000 Received: from wisma.pacific.net.au (wisma.pacific.net.au [210.23.129.72]) by sunny.pacific.net.au with ESMTP id h4G7aJQg014342 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (ppp203.dyn132.pacific.net.au [210.23.132.203]) by wisma.pacific.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4G7aHYZ018887 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1834038 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 03:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305161726.26735.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 15:38:46 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:26:25 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:03 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > > What about apple?... > > Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: No, SunOS was, but Solaris is SysV based. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSSoY1yjaOTJg85AQGuWAgAwgUD/NajEPujM9KceJKA6+sx1tOjLnk8 5HU4ekVGfYorp+gm3DsQsBcDOuxrludyCXTDdRlmIAzlTOtJfd2Q/vFF/D0riDbu hCo32Yee0kCAbfOKmXWAlt+51NPBsFW03G2VQXTqq9VuUirh8NfdupJdIFJA5H5X wFVfIALLAy6CVa2DjMriUCN97/Gbf3JiHtxdWfXhLyd4vo3zRIIl3CEa+zmgcreC KB2xw5FttTKubywI31hNJUqwiKLgFjpRa52yK8HcUr51OtIMs+TAbJcodUQ/ex/S xAkAO7LawpZ9fogVEHzW8FIyaC3B84V2faXNvcseJDQVzD3aRKHmbA== =BwnP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeremy@austux.net Fri May 16 15:42:24 2003 Received: from europa.austux.net (europa.austux.net [61.95.75.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G7fuoi025944; Fri, 16 May 2003 15:42:23 +0800 Received: by europa.austux.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 14959501269; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:41:53 +1000 (EST) To: David Lloyd Cc: Pia Smith , linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SUOF0GtieIMvvwua" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: jeremy@austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 15:43:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:41:53 +1000 --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 09:33:46AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how > she's used the sponsorship in a year's time?=20 Is Linuxmagau incorporated or planning to incorporate? Perhaps a project of this scale should form an incorporated association and then that can receive the funds, and the association when then have to produce an annual report. Of course linuxmagau could also be setup to be considered part of Linux Australia and a financial report could still be required. Either way it's probably also a good idea to ensure anyone working with linuxmagau is covered, either by limited liability or insurance. --=20 Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xJZAkbP49ojM5yARAp07AJ9YVwMUCkrh5+z90Lau8Cop2xbZIACdGxni +ZSVhECvqEhAc8pNhyGiUJY= =ym8o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua-- From chris@csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:48:53 2003 Received: from snoopy.pacific.net.au (snoopy.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G7mRoi026701 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 15:48:53 +0800 Received: from sunny.pacific.net.au (sunny.pacific.net.au [203.2.228.40]) by snoopy.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4G7mQPc025362; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:48:27 +1000 Received: from wisma.pacific.net.au (wisma.pacific.net.au [210.23.129.72]) by sunny.pacific.net.au with ESMTP id h4G7mQQg016889; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:48:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (ppp203.dyn132.pacific.net.au [210.23.132.203]) by wisma.pacific.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4G7mPYZ002049; Fri, 16 May 2003 17:48:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C062A4021; Fri, 16 May 2003 03:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: Andrew Cowie , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: MS iLoo an unoriginal hoax (was Re: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back....) User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305161748.41523.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 15:49:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:48:26 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Friday 16 May 2003 5:09 pm, Andrew Cowie wrote: > [What on earth were they thinking: Portable Internet Enabled Toilets? Is > that so like you can log on while, er, laying a log? If you don't know > what I'm talking about, see http://www.web-user.co.uk/news/?mod_article_id={14909A49-E9CF-407E-BE67-EBAD678A8B4C}&mod_article_show_only= [start quote] But according to US news sources, Microsoft US has apologised for the joke and said it was an April Fool's gag circulated by their UK counterparts. Presumably the company forgot this was on 1 April and not 30 April when the press release was issued. A spokeswoman for Microsoft told US news channel CBS News: "This iLoo release came out of the UK office and was not a Microsoft sanctioned communication and we apologise for any confusion or offence it may have caused." There's also further embarrassment for MSN. According to the Inquirer website, British inventor Andrew Cubitt claims he designed and made an internet toilet two years ago, which made an appearance at the Ideal Home Show. [end quote] To see Andrew's invention, which printed onto toilet paper (about right for some websites out there!), see: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9442 and the webpage for it at the UK Ideal Home Show 2003: http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/content/attractions/content.asp?location=32 No details about what OS it used though.. :-) I still prefer the Internet Chopping Board: http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/content/attractions/content.asp?location=26 (These are not late April Fools) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSXyo1yjaOTJg85AQEKnwf/acQMXu5ODyVEkTNxDkd4RI+uPCq4SylS MrCIs8DkZMzwOGZGNGEHorSvuXTDanmOQJ/bn2PIcBfhKxtCYYVfqje2V9QX6/q4 BpdHnCHHRqh5DF8eOi7PzWqbfdp2cS/jRa8Lz+PO2gOTI9nA9EBc9qCB+5Lz29/T iJNW7pwDUjXb+ua2n/vG69VgRcymgrcHfyuqc6YXTlCl5/MVdwRMdKR5LOMIy/eb 3K5yDmb5+ufiUDnBOPxMnLAI2oGbSqgE7uImJaqnIPVXYOWT6GK4NI7GNTKHBnop aeORhB41OR+1Ht1BmYbXqz2Tfl7zCbc2deQ8uzuYdLUGufN47yLWfA== =kSye -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Fri May 16 16:38:23 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4G8bxoi032392 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 16:38:23 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4G8bvah000996 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 18:37:58 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4G8bvbe000994 for linux-aus@linux.org.au; Fri, 16 May 2003 18:37:57 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 16:39:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:37:57 +1000 Hi Jeremy/all, On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 05:41:53PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > Is Linuxmagau incorporated or planning to incorporate? Perhaps a > project of this scale should form an incorporated association and then > that can receive the funds, and the association when then have to > produce an annual report. Of course linuxmagau could also be setup to > be considered part of Linux Australia and a financial report could still > be required. Either way it's probably also a good idea to ensure anyone > working with linuxmagau is covered, either by limited liability or > insurance. Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) I am not sure what sort of liability you mean? Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) the authors are all single entities, not bound to LinMagAu in anyway, nor is LinMagAU to the authors.. we run a standard copyright at the footer of the pages.. ** All logos,trademarks, articles, photographs and comments are property of the respective owner/s where shown. All other is property of linmagau.org. For questions regards Copyright, email legal@linmagau.org or the respective owners of the article concerned. ** When I am writing articles using others words, I always get permission first if someone who submits an article does not, the copyright I think covers this? I am not sure LinMagAU as an entity is liable for any action ? I would be grateful for any feedback on this if someone knows better. What sort of insurance do you mean ? Right now the mag is created by me (with the terrific assistance from the authors of the stories) but from my house.. I am not about to sue myself for stubbing my toe on the bed end :) Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. (with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. I have started the process to register a business name so that we can open a bank account..and as per the Linux Australia requirements for the sponsorship/support, LinMagAu will be accounting directly to LA for the use of this money. Any suggestions are always great. Thanks Kimberly Shelt From jeremy@austux.net Fri May 16 18:42:35 2003 Received: from europa.austux.net (europa.austux.net [61.95.75.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4GAgBoi013167 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 18:42:35 +0800 Received: by europa.austux.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8AA23501269; Fri, 16 May 2003 20:42:11 +1000 (EST) To: Kimberly Shelt Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: jeremy@austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 18:43:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:42:11 +1000 On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 06:37:57PM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) Whoops :) > I am not sure what sort of liability you mean? > Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) The only problem with this is that if someone for any reason decides to sue LinMagAU then the onus falls back on you. As a result you could loose your house or any property. One way to solve that is with incorporation, another way is with insurance (could be costly). Alternatively you could probably do it so that LinMagAU becomes part of Linux Australia. > Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may > be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. > (with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). > So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. Yep, well the only thing with incorporation is that you have to follow certain rules and comply with the Act. Though apart from that it's very cheap to do (in Victoria it costs $60 to register which is cheaper than registering a business name) and not too hard to do. The hardest part can perhaps be getting the people together, you need at least five members (though that may vary from state to state), though usually more since in most states the model rules seem to require about six committee members. I'm in the process of setting up an incorporated association so if you ever do need any help with that do feel free to ask me (though the laws will probably differ in other states). -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Fri May 16 19:00:04 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4GAxNoi015040 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 19:00:04 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4GAxMah004164; Fri, 16 May 2003 20:59:22 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4GAxLd4004162; Fri, 16 May 2003 20:59:21 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: Jeremy Lunn Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 19:01:27 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:59:21 +1000 On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 08:42:11PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 06:37:57PM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > > Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) > > Whoops :) NP :) > The only problem with this is that if someone for any reason decides to > sue LinMagAU then the onus falls back on you. As a result you could > loose your house or any property. One way to solve that is with > incorporation, another way is with insurance (could be costly). > Alternatively you could probably do it so that LinMagAU becomes part of > Linux Australia. > Good points :).. although I think my debts outweight my assets right now :) > > Yep, well the only thing with incorporation is that you have to follow > certain rules and comply with the Act. Though apart from that it's very > cheap to do (in Victoria it costs $60 to register which is cheaper than > registering a business name) and not too hard to do. The hardest part > can perhaps be getting the people together, you need at least five > members (though that may vary from state to state), though usually more > since in most states the model rules seem to require about six committee > members. > > I'm in the process of setting up an incorporated association so if you > ever do need any help with that do feel free to ask me (though the laws > will probably differ in other states). Excellent.. as in other mail directly to you, Thanks Jeremy, I shall do some investigation over this side of the country, and get in contact :) Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? I think we can take this part of the thread off line, and all those who are interested in assisting, let me know via email :) Thanks Jeremy. Regards Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org > > -- > Jeremy Lunn > Melbourne, Australia > Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From tony@linuxworks.com.au Fri May 16 19:35:24 2003 Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-203-51-204-227.qld.bigpond.net.au [203.51.204.227]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4GBZ0oi018887 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 19:35:23 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h4GBZ0XZ016934 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 21:35:00 +1000 Received: from linuxworks.com.au (tony@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) with ESMTP id h4GBZ0pu016932 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 21:35:00 +1000 Message-Id: <200305161135.h4GBZ0pu016932@gandalf.linuxworks.com.au.nospam> To: Linux Australia Email List From: Tony Nugent X-image-url: http://www.linuxworks.com.au/tony48x48.jpg X-Face: ]IrGs{LrofDtGfsrG!As5=G'2HRr2zt:H>djXb5@v|Dr!jOelxzAZ`!}("]}] Q!)1w#X;)nLlb'XhSu,QL>;)L/l06wsI?rv-xy6%Y1e"BUiV%)mU;]f-5<#U6 UthZ0QrF7\_p#q}*Cn}jd|XT~7P7ik]Q!2u%aTtvc;)zfH\:3f<[a:)M Organization: Linux Works X-Mailer: nmh-1.0.4 exmh-2.6.3 X-OS: Linux-2.4 RedHat 7.3 In-Reply-To: message-id <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> of Thu, May 15 13:47:46 2003 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 16 19:36:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:34:59 +1000 On Thu May 15 2003 at 13:47, Chris Samuel wrote: > Some more FUD from SCO: > > http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 These URLs may be of interest for those looking for more information about this very sad story: The SCO Complaint http://www.sco.com/scosource/complaint3.06.03.html OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint (Eric Raymond) http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html UNIX is free! (Subject: Liberal license for ancient UNIX sources) (23 Jan 2002) http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ Are Linux Users Infringing on SCO's Property? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-01-23-023-26-NW-CD-LL SCO Group On the Licensing Warpath? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-03-03-010-26-NW-CD-LL Has SCO Fired Volley to Start Linux Legal War? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-13-009-26-NW-CD-LL OSOpinion.com: Linux' New Worst Enemy http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-12-007-26-OP-CD-LL A look at the SCO complaint http://lwn.net/Articles/24747/ SCO sues Big Blue over Unix, Linux | CNET News.com http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html SCO vs IBM http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html SCO vs Linux http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-03-07-011-26-NW-CD-LL SCO to enforce its intellectual property in Linux world (Jan 23 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,77815,00.html SCO sues IBM for $1B in intellectual property fight (Mar 7 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,79153,00.html SCO warns commercial Linux users of potential 'legal liability' (May 14 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0%2c10801%2c81235%2c00.html Cheers Tony From jdub@perkypants.org Sat May 17 01:31:45 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-02.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.34]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4GHVOoi024693 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 01:31:45 +0800 Received: (qmail 14439 invoked from network); 16 May 2003 17:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 16 May 2003 17:31:19 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1A18C203 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 03:31:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23756-10 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 03:31:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669C78C164 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 03:31:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3F9E312B6B0; Sat, 17 May 2003 03:31:18 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@linux.org.au References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> Reply-By: Tue May 20 03:29:49 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 03:29:49 up 13 days, 9:49, 11 users, load average: 0.06, 0.05, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 17 01:32:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:31:18 +1000 > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing association). - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "And up in the corporate box there's a group of pleasant thirtysomething guys making tuneful music for the masses of people who can spell 'nihilism', but don't want to listen to it in the car." - Richard Jinman, SMH From grog@lemis.com Sat May 17 10:36:59 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4H2aeoi021786 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 10:36:57 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C3D3351A9F; Sat, 17 May 2003 11:03:03 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Samuel Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TYecfFk8j8mZq+dy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 17 10:38:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:03:03 +0930 --TYecfFk8j8mZq+dy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 16 May 2003 at 17:29:31 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >>> Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: >> >> No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch >> to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Well, in fact they adopted the term Solaris at the time. Solaris 1 was the complete package round the (BSD-based) SunOS 4 kernel. Solaris 2 was the complete package round the (System V.4-based) SunOS 5 kernel. And note that System V.4 has just about the complete 4.3BSD sources in it. The file system was UFS, for example. >> Actually, when Sun got the System V code, it was my understanding >> that they ripped it apart, and worked very hard to make it a decent >> operating system, replacing a good deal of the kernel code, and >> basically just keeping the system call interfaces. They certainly did a lot of work on it, but SunOS 5.2 (Solaris 2.2) was still very recognizably System V.4. > My understanding was one of the major reasons that Sun went System V > for Solaris was for the SMP scalability. Apparently SunOS's MP > didn't quite cut it. I haven't heard that, but most of the SMP work on SunOS 5 was done by Sun, not by AT&T. It's possible that System V.4 was a better basis to start working on. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --TYecfFk8j8mZq+dy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+xZFPIubykFB6QiMRAlpDAJwIGS/PnI7Am507RMGy2ycEs2ZFQQCePqZq /Nnga/6tOWtlKHcycNd18Us= =/4y5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TYecfFk8j8mZq+dy-- From chris@csamuel.org Sat May 17 14:03:22 2003 Received: from snoopy.pacific.net.au (snoopy.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.36]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4H630oi011377 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 14:03:22 +0800 Received: from sunny.pacific.net.au (sunny.pacific.net.au [203.2.228.40]) by snoopy.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4H62pPc025087; Sat, 17 May 2003 16:02:51 +1000 Received: from wisma.pacific.net.au (wisma.pacific.net.au [210.23.129.72]) by sunny.pacific.net.au with ESMTP id h4H62oQg028316; Sat, 17 May 2003 16:02:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (ppp1.dyn134.pacific.net.au [210.23.134.1]) by wisma.pacific.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4H62nYZ023597; Sat, 17 May 2003 16:02:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0699F4021; Sat, 17 May 2003 02:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305171600.51832.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 17 14:04:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:00:45 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Saturday 17 May 2003 11:33 am, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 16 May 2003 at 17:29:31 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >> > >> No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to > >> switch to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). > > Well, in fact they adopted the term Solaris at the time. Solaris 1 > was the complete package round the (BSD-based) SunOS 4 kernel. Now, if my memory is correct, that was kind of reverse engineered onto SunOS after Solaris was announced wasn't it ? Aha - found an official Sun Solaris release history which says that Solaris 1.0 was actually SunOS 4.1.1 Rev. B, a little over a year before Solaris 2.0 was released. http://jp.sun.com/software/solaris/history/ SunOS 4.1.1 and previous was just called SunOS. [...] > I haven't heard that, but most of the SMP work on SunOS 5 was done by > Sun, not by AT&T. It's possible that System V.4 was a better basis to > start working on. It looks like that, from the Solaris Transistion Guide at: http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/805-3864/6j3lvpage?a=view Although the foundation of the Solaris operating environment is based on SVR4, Sun has added extensive functionality in areas such as symmetric multiprocessing with multithreads, real-time functionality, increased security, and improved system administration. and why it's better than SunOS for SMP http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/805-3864/6j3lvpaka?a=view Under the SunOS release 4.x software, only one processor could be in the kernel at any one time. This was accomplished by using a master lock around the entire kernel. When a processor wanted to execute kernel code, it would acquire the lock (excluding other processors from running the code protected by the lock) and it would release the lock when it finished. The Solaris 7 kernel is multithreaded. Instead of one master lock, there are many smaller locks that protect smaller regions of code. For example, there may be a kernel lock that protects access to a particular vnode, and one that protects an inode. Only one processor can be running code dealing with that vnode at a time, but another could be accessing an inode. This allows a greater amount of concurrency. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsXQDY1yjaOTJg85AQGwlAf7B+7nON3PMEv7l6LAVvWWU8/fTdxpDqhB M2a9M/QJayPq4Aegpz0LnARUTYC5JPYa1sP85/cazeXIF59JgVF6lvLIUB1PhUrx vmAz5NLH4xUpXMjCK9zrzrmCiQ8mi/+cl7NVVBU+euOkgLi42VuLcKIX0OBrD4z3 82NfdbOOsjK7lrqUgl645lANmt70L69Qn5RDMPmckXJ3Z+nqZkmebZinW4DUnKkw 74OgdsWWIYydF0GNMmDWm7du0FkJzbA4q8ZBu3c9X+K8NISTNzPWFvA7JA55MHxD hqM3c/T4uTl0zmvpbJQyQeMLTWv3nQbAERtLaLU7lTzJ5FWTDoFKHA== =O7Tr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Sat May 17 23:08:24 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4HF86oi004600 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 23:08:24 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4HF85ah005187 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:08:06 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4HF84xY005185 for linux-aus@linux.org.au; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:08:04 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 17 23:09:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:08:04 +1000 On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > association). Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? What are the benefits? LA Committe..can you help here? I think there are lots of pros & cons.. intersted to hear others thoughts? Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From dtnguyen@ecr.mu.oz.au Sat May 17 23:24:48 2003 Received: from gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au (gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.70.62]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4HFOWoi006356 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 23:24:47 +0800 Received: from gromit.ecr.mu.oz.au (gromit.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.61.61]) by gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au (8.12.8p1/8.12.0) with ESMTP id h4HFOUWM001758; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:24:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (dtnguyen@localhost) by gromit.ecr.mu.oz.au (8.12.8p1/8.12.0) with SMTP id h4HFOUT12264373; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:24:30 +1000 (AEST) From: Dai_Thai NGUYEN To: Kimberly Shelt cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 17 23:25:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:24:30 +1000 (AEST) On Sun, 18 May 2003, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > > association). > > Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? > > What are the benefits? > > LA Committe..can you help here? > > I think there are lots of pros & cons.. intersted to hear others thoughts? > > Kim > -- > http://www.linmagau.org > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > Do we really need a LA Committee? The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders this in my opinion. What would they do anyway? Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this work? Binh. From jdub@perkypants.org Sat May 17 23:51:36 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-07.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.39]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4HFpGoi009177 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 23:51:36 +0800 Received: (qmail 19673 invoked from network); 17 May 2003 15:43:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 17 May 2003 15:43:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031B98C203; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:43:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25031-09; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:43:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE6C8C164; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:43:58 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BB73C12B6B0; Sun, 18 May 2003 01:43:56 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Dai_Thai NGUYEN Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Dai_Thai NGUYEN , linux-aus@linux.org.au References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Wed May 21 01:36:16 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 01:36:16 up 14 days, 7:55, 11 users, load average: 0.18, 0.10, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 17 23:52:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:43:56 +1000 > Do we really need a LA Committee? As Linux Australia, Inc. is an incorporated association, yes, we do. > The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to > be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders > this in my opinion. Why so? Most major Open Source projects have incorporated associations backing them up with the 'real world' stuff (ie. money). Debian (SPI), Apache (Apache Foundation), GNOME (GNOME Foundation), etc. Generally, these organisations are explicitly designed to be independent of development issues. That said, there is a natural heirarchy in most functioning Open Source / Free Software projects regardless of legal issues such as incorporation. > What would they do anyway? s/would/do... They carry out the objectives of the organisation: http://linux.org.au/org/ > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this > work? The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. However, don't be under the impression that 'proper' FOSS projects are in any way democratic. Most are powerfully non-democratic. - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Of course i can see iso-8859-1 characters, I'm French." - Christian Marillat From dtnguyen@ecr.mu.oz.au Sun May 18 00:17:24 2003 Received: from gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au (gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.70.62]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4HGH3oi012271 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 00:17:23 +0800 Received: from gromit.ecr.mu.oz.au (gromit.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.61.61]) by gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au (8.12.8p1/8.12.0) with ESMTP id h4HGH2WM002530; Sun, 18 May 2003 02:17:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (dtnguyen@localhost) by gromit.ecr.mu.oz.au (8.12.8p1/8.12.0) with SMTP id h4HGH33p2248727; Sun, 18 May 2003 02:17:03 +1000 (AEST) From: Dai_Thai NGUYEN To: Jeff Waugh cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 00:18:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 02:17:03 +1000 (AEST) On Sun, 18 May 2003, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Do we really need a LA Committee? > > As Linux Australia, Inc. is an incorporated association, yes, we do. > > > The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to > > be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders > > this in my opinion. > > Why so? Most major Open Source projects have incorporated associations > backing them up with the 'real world' stuff (ie. money). Debian (SPI), > Apache (Apache Foundation), GNOME (GNOME Foundation), etc. Generally, these > organisations are explicitly designed to be independent of development > issues. > > That said, there is a natural heirarchy in most functioning Open Source / > Free Software projects regardless of legal issues such as incorporation. I suppose this has something to do with my upbringing. I've never really trusted beureaucrats/politicians and I doubt that I ever will. Even when I have been involved in administration/management I've found that internal bickering between contrasting personalities leads to counter productivity. Anyway, as long as it works. > > What would they do anyway? > > s/would/do... They carry out the objectives of the organisation: > > http://linux.org.au/org/ That's one heck of a constitution. I saw that members were supposed to meet regularly. Who would pay for travel? > > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this > > work? > The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. Could you please tell me who votes for them? > However, don't be under the impression that 'proper' FOSS projects are in > any way democratic. Most are powerfully non-democratic. > > - Jeff > > -- > GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ > > "Of course i can see iso-8859-1 characters, I'm French." - Christian > Marillat > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From jdub@perkypants.org Sun May 18 05:10:53 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-05.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.37]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4HLAboi010544 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 05:10:53 +0800 Received: (qmail 23358 invoked from network); 17 May 2003 21:08:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 17 May 2003 21:08:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8938C203; Sun, 18 May 2003 07:08:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11962-09; Sun, 18 May 2003 07:08:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8328C164; Sun, 18 May 2003 07:08:36 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1D9AA12B6B0; Sun, 18 May 2003 07:08:35 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Dai_Thai NGUYEN Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030517210835.GC19724@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Dai_Thai NGUYEN , linux-aus@linux.org.au References: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Wed May 21 07:07:55 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 07:07:55 up 14 days, 13:26, 11 users, load average: 0.10, 0.04, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 05:11:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:08:35 +1000 > > The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. > > Could you please tell me who votes for them? The membership. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "2.4.1ac17 is full of innovations and should be used with caution." - Linux Weekly News From lloy0076@adam.com.au Sun May 18 06:18:00 2003 Received: from postit.adam.com.au (postit.adam.com.au [203.2.124.173]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4HMHdoi017521 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 06:18:00 +0800 Received: from lightning.adam.com.au (lightning.adam.com.au [203.2.124.20]) by postit.adam.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h4HMJK26006764 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 07:49:20 +0930 (CST) Received: (qmail 22685 invoked from network); 17 May 2003 22:17:36 -0000 Received: from 202-6-159-192.ip.adam.com.au (HELO mordor.middlearth.net.au) (202.6.159.192) by eden.adam.com.au with SMTP; 17 May 2003 22:17:36 -0000 From: David Lloyd To: Dai_Thai NGUYEN Cc: kim@linmagau.org, linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-Id: <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.i+X/_yunVPem9O" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 06:18:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:53:33 +0930 --=.i+X/_yunVPem9O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ummm... > Do we really need a LA Committee? I am going to put my ballerina shoes and do pirouettes. Mind you pointing you at: * http://www.linux.org.au/org/constitution.phtml ...is probably more helpful. > The beauty of Linux is its ability > to allow people from any background to be able to contribute is it > not? In what way does Linux Australia (Inc) detract from this? > Having a hierarchal structure hinders this in my opinion. What > would they do anyway? Not being an incorporated entity--and therefore a legal nobody--is worse. Organisations can work well with a committee. The best thing about committees is that you generally have at least five to seven people who ensure things get done. This can also turn into you have five to seven people who get to do everything because noone else is willing to help. > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic > vote? But then who counts the votes? And what if a consensus can't be found? Damn, someone would have to adjudicate the results. But that's too hierarchical isn't it. > How would this work? Like it has been... DSL -- Sing a new song, chiquitita! --=.i+X/_yunVPem9O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xrZpmk7m2JX6ki4RAscQAJ9UICPvjcjWpdYQWiJ3LLuXeiS30wCgu+x6 ldAslth17a65og2LZR5/TLQ= =I4rO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.i+X/_yunVPem9O-- From jeremy@austux.net Sun May 18 10:55:59 2003 Received: from europa.austux.net (europa.austux.net [61.95.75.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4I2teoi014837 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 10:55:58 +0800 Received: by europa.austux.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E8A79501269; Sun, 18 May 2003 12:55:34 +1000 (EST) To: Kimberly Shelt Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: jeremy@austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 10:56:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:55:34 +1000 On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 01:08:04AM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? There'd be no details on it per say, though the majority of LA committee would have to agree on it. > What are the benefits? Over incorporating a separate entity, there would be reduced administrative overheads. That's about all really (apart from perhaps having greater influence over getting funding out of LA :D). If you don't mind filing an annual financial report to corporate affairs, maintaining a membership register and a few other trivial things then there probably isn't a huge difference. Of course LA would have more control over things, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even so, I think that the editor has the final word about content (I've known an organisation where they sacked the President because hey changed something in a newsletter without asking anyone, right before it went to print). Either way, incorporating as a separate entity or doing it under the wing of LA, is certainly better than as an individual with unlimited liablity. I personally don't think that incorporation is too much of a hassle (though it does entail a little bit of work) if you want indepedance, though I seriously doubt LA would hinder that. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia "testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is perfect". -- Linus Torvalds From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Sun May 18 11:54:13 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4I3rsoi021007 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 11:54:13 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4I3rrah019787 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 13:53:54 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4I3rr9I019785 for linux-aus@linux.org.au; Sun, 18 May 2003 13:53:53 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 11:55:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:53:53 +1000 On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:55:34PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > Over incorporating a separate entity, there would be reduced > administrative overheads. That's about all really (apart from perhaps > having greater influence over getting funding out of LA :D). If you > don't mind filing an annual financial report to corporate affairs, > maintaining a membership register and a few other trivial things then > there probably isn't a huge difference. Probably much the same amount of ongoing "red tape".. perhaps just a little more inital work as a seperate entity. > > Either way, incorporating as a separate entity or doing it under the > wing of LA, is certainly better than as an individual with unlimited > liablity. I personally don't think that incorporation is too much of a > hassle (though it does entail a little bit of work) if you want > indepedance, though I seriously doubt LA would hinder that. Agreed, the current LA committee is obviously supportive but future evolutions may not be so :( this is true of all "motherships".. Rules set now might get amended at a later date, as has recently happened within another "organisation" in our "community". :).. I shall continue to investigate doing Inc as a seperate entity. Then when someone comes to sue LinMagAU they can take all the assets away..which would amount to errmm a ream of paper I guess :) Thanks for the feedback :) Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From j-conversations@decisions-and-designs.com.au Sun May 18 12:41:47 2003 Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4I4fXoi026447 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 12:41:47 +0800 Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1B860B77 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 12:41:33 +0800 (WST) Received: from chicory.decisions-and-designs.com.au (adsl-202-72-160-9.prem.westnet.com.au [202.72.160.9]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05FA5FE9E for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 12:41:32 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> X-Sender: j-conversations@decisions-and-designs.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au From: Jacqueline McNally Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> References: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 12:42:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:42:33 +0800 LinMagAU has published three issues in as many months. This is a remarkable achievement, given the short lead up time and current resources. The most important resource being that of the contributors, and especially Kim herself. >Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) >the authors are all single entities, not bound to LinMagAu in anyway, >nor is LinMagAU to the authors.. we run a standard copyright at >the footer of the pages.. As suggested by others I consider a review date would be appropriate, perhaps at 6 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 1 year. Or, 3 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 6 months. If the project is a huge success say next month, Kim may not have the resources to cope with her new readers (online or paper). Would a review allow Kim to request additional grant monies, or would that need to be a new grant request? My only concern is that it appears that LinMagAU is Kim, and Kim is LinMagAU. The "what if" for me, is if Kim becomes unavailable and no longer has the time to publish LinMagAU, what happens ? Perhaps Kim would consider making a first offer to LA if anything was to occur such that she could not continue with the publication. >Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may >be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. >(with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). >So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. $200/month is a modest request and while I do not feel that it will cover all of the real costs described in the grant proposal, this is what Kim has proposed and feels will get the LinMagAU project underway. All the best Jacqueline McNally www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand OpenOffice.org Marketing Project (www.openoffice.org) Are you a computer angel? (www.ca.asn.au) From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Sun May 18 13:26:16 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [61.8.3.7]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4I5Pxoi031163 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 13:26:16 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4I5Pwah021428 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 15:25:59 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h4I5Pwff021426 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Sun, 18 May 2003 15:25:58 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030518052558.GC19510@linmagau.org> References: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 18 13:27:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:25:58 +1000 On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:42:33PM +0800, Jacqueline McNally wrote: > LinMagAU has published three issues in as many months. This is a remarkable > achievement, given the short lead up time and current resources. The most > important resource being that of the contributors, and especially Kim > herself. :).. thanks for the kind words.. It is of course all the authors who finally gave into my nagging that made the issues such a success so far :) > > As suggested by others I consider a review date would be appropriate, > perhaps at 6 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 1 year. Or, > 3 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 6 months. If the > project is a huge success say next month, Kim may not have the resources to > cope with her new readers (online or paper). Would a review allow Kim to > request additional grant monies, or would that need to be a new grant > request? A review date is a good idea.. as in the original request I mentioned a period of 3months in which to get a pro-type "newsletter inhouse built" hard copy, perhaps that in itself is a good time for a first review ? I am not sure what happens if we don't meet the guidelines on time :) but I would think that each project(this included) would be reviewed and discussion between the project lead and LA committee would take place.. I guess case by case is the way to go now, in the early stages of this kind of sponsorship by LA: > > My only concern is that it appears that LinMagAU is Kim, and Kim is > LinMagAU. The "what if" for me, is if Kim becomes unavailable and no longer > has the time to publish LinMagAU, what happens ? /me crossed her fingers for a job.. would this be so :).. Seriously this has concerned me a little too.. I would hope that "when/if" this happens someone else would step up to the plate and take the bat :) Time will tell I guess.. I have a list of folks I would hassle tucked away :) > > Perhaps Kim would consider making a first offer to LA if anything was to > occur such that she could not continue with the publication. Agreed, LA and (hopefully to come )other sponsors would be the first to know. > $200/month is a modest request and while I do not feel that it will cover > all of the real costs described in the grant proposal, this is what Kim has > proposed and feels will get the LinMagAU project underway. I discussed this with some of the committee members prior to making the request, so that I was at least being realistic.. my biggest concern was (and still is) just covering my out of pocket expenses.. my time comes free.. although perhaps with all this talk of Incorporation, I might spin off my own CMS/Media consultancy.. and charge like a wounded bull :) Naturally I would do another application :):) In reality, whilst I am unemployed I think this is a valuable way to spend my time, and so long as my actual costs are covered I am pretty happy.. > All the best Thanks again for the support Jacqueline & all others. Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org > Jacqueline McNally > www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline > > Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand > OpenOffice.org Marketing Project > (www.openoffice.org) > > Are you a computer angel? (www.ca.asn.au) > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From stewartsmith@mac.com Mon May 19 09:29:49 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.85]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4J1TToi029327 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 09:29:49 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4J1TP1e018537 for ; Sun, 18 May 2003 18:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4J1RtPm021109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Sun, 18 May 2003 18:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: committee@linux.org.au To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au From: Stewart Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 19 09:30:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:02:36 +1000 Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, The Linux Australia Committee had our first (excluding just after election at LCA03) face-to-face meeting over the past weekend. Many thanks to other committee members who gave up their precious time to help make LA a better organization. Many positive things have come out of our meeting, and we will be posting them here for all to see and comment on. Just give us some time to neaten up some notes and transcribe a bunch of stuff. Personally, I'm extremely happy with how much we managed to achieve and go through this weekend and look forward to the positive discussion on-list about the topics concerned. Special thanks to Pia&Jeff for putting myself and Leon up for our stay in Sydney, Andrew Cowie for some really good preparation and presentation of process (I really can't think of a good way to word it, but it really helped and you'll hear the outcomes) and, of course, the entire committee for putting forward such great ideas. (I didn't really intend to start a rant on "how good are we!", but I'm allowed to feel good on a sunday night :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart@linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From conz@cyber.com.au Mon May 19 09:57:28 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4J1v6oi032423 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 09:57:24 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA18548; Mon, 19 May 2003 11:56:26 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 70C8057BADD; Mon, 19 May 2003 11:56:24 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Stewart Smith Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, committee@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet Message-ID: <20030519015624.GP15241@cyber.com.au> References: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 19 09:58:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:56:24 +1000 On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:02:36PM +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: > Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, Stewart, you really must tell me how you manage to type on your laptop, whilst sky-diving and whilst wearing breathing apparatus... *G* -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From greebo@pacific.net.au Mon May 19 22:10:40 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-08.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.40]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4JEAKoi014290 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 22:10:40 +0800 Received: (qmail 6328 invoked from network); 19 May 2003 14:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 19 May 2003 14:02:19 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4408A8C203; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:02:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15423-05; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:02:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A348C164; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:02:25 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 From: Pia Smith To: Kimberly Shelt Cc: linux aus In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 19 22:11:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 19 May 2003 23:39:31 +1000 > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > > association). I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia separate is probably a good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent view of Linux Australia and other groups. Maybe get a few interested people together as a SIG, LA could help to set this up and possibly help support it in other ways (will have to evaluate), but Linux Australia would rather put in place a system so that linmagau is not tied to the direction of Linux Australia. We don't want to run it, or make a system that would allow future LA committees to run it, Kim is doing a great job, and we hope to support her in that! :) The 3/6 month idea seems to be a good idea. Maybe commit to the funds for 3 months, with a report from Kim at the end of that time to set up the next 3 months, and so on. Regards, Pia -- Pia Smith From jdub@perkypants.org Mon May 19 22:36:32 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-06.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.38]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4JEaAoi017099 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 22:36:32 +0800 Received: (qmail 32210 invoked from network); 19 May 2003 14:33:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 19 May 2003 14:33:52 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862E08C203 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:33:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23643-07 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:33:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2093A8C164 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:33:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A3DFF12B6B0; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:33:57 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux aus Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <20030519143357.GP20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux aus References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> Reply-By: Fri May 23 00:32:43 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 00:32:43 up 16 days, 6:51, 10 users, load average: 0.05, 0.04, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 19 22:37:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:33:57 +1000 > > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some > > > other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, > > > existing association). > > I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia separate is probably a > good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent view of Linux Australia > and other groups. (For what it's worth, I really strongly agree.) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ Broken hearts rarely come with "Some Assembly Required" stickers. From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue May 20 08:01:57 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4K01aoi012231 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 08:01:56 +0800 Received: from orthanc.middlearth.net.au (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:31:19 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Kimberly Shelt Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-Id: <20030520093143.7cff4915.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.kB?tj7cwyZ3?PJ" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 08:02:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:31:43 +0930 --=.kB?tj7cwyZ3?PJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim, > :).. I shall continue to investigate doing Inc as a seperate entity. > Then when someone comes to sue LinMagAU they can take all the assets > away..which would amount to errmm a ream of paper I guess :) Not necessarily--if the "directors" of an association have not acted diligently in their duties they can be sued for their personal belongings as well. One can get zapped if: * one fails to understand obvious financial misreporting * one fails to attempt to do something about financial misdemeanors - i.e. they may happen but if you can demonstrate that you saw them and were attempting to rectify them [but the 6 other directors all voted against getting an audit] then you're safe * other ways DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 --=.kB?tj7cwyZ3?PJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yXBnNBhAwwyvg/kRAvvcAJ9P75q66Y+L+EMgDL1RCZwvqKRq8wCbBAmK ax/0COjgvCxwaT8scJtdYU0= =pqoz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.kB?tj7cwyZ3?PJ-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 08:54:40 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4K0sMoi018289 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 08:54:40 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7C713CBC for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 08:58:40 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> In-Reply-To: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305200858.40458.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 08:55:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:58:40 +0800 On Sat, 17 May 2003 01:31, Jeff Waugh wrote: > >> finding the 5/6 folks who might be >> interested in being on the exec...? Perhaps a LA rep would be great? > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd > be better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or > some other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another > appropriate, existing association). Agree. It would make insurance and lots of other things simpler. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:12:33 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4K1C8oi020222 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:12:33 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D1713CBC for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:16:29 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] LA Committee (was: Grant) User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305200916.29253.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 09:13:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:16:29 +0800 On Sun, 18 May 2003 00:17, Dai_Thai NGUYEN wrote: > I've never > really trusted beureaucrats/politicians and I doubt that I ever will. That's well-placed trust. (-: > Even when I have been involved in administration/management I've > found that internal bickering between contrasting personalities leads > to counter productivity. I think in this place _very_ much not. Disclaimer: I am an LA OCM. What I say will be biassed by this. I've worked with and in a few committees now, and the current LA committee works singularly well. As with any organisation of any size, some effort is "wasted" in conlict and in overheads. Unlike many of the committees I've worked in, these differences are made productive, with very little guarding-of-territory and no hackles-up factionation. Even Hugh and Tridge, both of whom work with each other at IBM, have distinct and different viewpoints, personalities and approaches (and it must be said: evidently both have enormous depth of experience at working with groups and committees, perhaps this helps more than it shows). Every person on that Committee has quite distinct wishes and priorities. Every single person on that Committee has shown themselves willing, even eager to give ground if a superior, or more practical, or simply more popular option is advanced, or if real flaws and concerns are unearthed in one of their own issues du jour. In this regard, we hew closely to the "meritocracy" (seemed to be Word of the Day for Tridge on Sunday) so dear to Linus' heart, and who better to establish the character of a Linux-based group than Linus? There are no dummies. There are no hyperegos. There are no knives in the back. Pray that it stays that way! We have reps from big companies, small companies, employees, males, females, four Australian states, inner-city dwellers, country boys, programmers, managers. I suppose we could do with Asian, Aboriginal and Negro representatives too, but we're doing pretty well on all other fronts already. So... nobody's perfect, Dai Thai Nguyen, but IMESHO opinion we've got a good deal going for us so far, worth getting behind and pushing rather than regarding with fear and trembling from the sidelines. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:18:16 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4K1Htoi020931 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:18:16 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1F113CBC for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:22:16 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 09:19:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:22:16 +0800 On Sun, 18 May 2003 06:23, David Lloyd wrote: > I am going to put my ballerina shoes and do pirouettes. _Please_ no! (-: > Not being an incorporated entity--and therefore a legal nobody--is > worse. Organisations can work well with a committee. The best thing > about committees is that you generally have at least five to seven > people who ensure things get done. This can also turn into you have > five to seven people who get to do everything because noone else is > willing to help. /ME shutting up now. (-: >> Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? There is. LA Ctte was elected on a vote. Non-obvious decisions are made within Ctte on a vote. > But then who counts the votes? Officially, the Secretary (in the case of the election, Rusty :-) > And what if a consensus can't be found? Hasn't happened yet. If it does, more debate would ensue until someone changed their mind. Otherwise, we all leave in a huff, stop talking to each other, and any heirarchical worries are history. (-: > Damn, someone would have to adjudicate the results. The bastards! How could they? (-: > But that's too hierarchical isn't it. Three levels. Members, Committee, tiebreaker. Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election as proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, with or without office. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:27:56 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4K1RWoi022013 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:27:56 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4505613CBC for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 09:31:54 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] thanks from 30,000 feet User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305200931.53713.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 09:28:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:31:53 +0800 On Sun, 18 May 2003 20:02, Stewart Smith wrote: > Many positive things have come out of our meeting Agree. > Special thanks to Pia&Jeff for putting myself and Leon up for our > stay in Sydney, Agree. > Andrew Cowie for some really good preparation and > presentation of process (I really can't think of a good way to word > it, but it really helped and you'll hear the outcomes) Very much agree. It should be said that Andrew didn't get everything he wanted, so any bias he put into the construction of "the process" seems to have been submerged. Thanks are also due to Pia's workplace for the venue. Off-topic, but worth saying: The seats on VirginBlue 'planes suck, but the hosties are excellent. Talking to a newbie (3 weeks on the job) hostie, their last induction was 2000 people, of which only 30 were chosen (4 of them male) to go through training. VirginBlue would be delighted to get more male hosties, BTW, so if you're looking for a *different* kind of job... (-: Back on topic (ish): one of the hosties on the way across knew about Linux - I was wearing an LA tee-shirt - her previous boyfriend had been a Linux consultant (I have no idea who he was, she's a very pretty slim tallish blonde with a Nordic look and name). The internet kiosks in Perth airport have been switched from Windows to Linux (or at least X) but the ones at Sydney airport have not, and neither have those at the Northern Territory terrorism office/shop at Darling Harbour. Rip into 'em, SLUG members! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From andrew@operationaldynamics.com.au Tue May 20 10:13:20 2003 Received: from procyon.mobeous.net (dyn56.syd1.homedsl.pacific.net.au [203.100.232.56]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4K2D2oi026852 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 10:13:20 +0800 Received: (qmail 6219 invoked by uid 1000); 20 May 2003 02:12:32 -0000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 From: Andrew Cowie To: linux-aus@linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Operational Dynamics Message-Id: <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4- Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 10:14:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 20 May 2003 12:12:32 +1000 [My, hasn't this thread wavered from it's title?] On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 11:22, Leon Brooks wrote: > Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election as > proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, with or > without office. I'd like to pick up on Leon's last point. I've heard tell that one of the challenges faced by many of the Community / User Group style associations here in Australia is that the Committee ends up doing all the work, to the benefit of the membership. This is fine, of course, and willingness to put work in is one of the criteria to being nominated to the Committee of any volunteer organization. I have, however, heard from quite a few people who indicate a willingness to participate and contribute. You don't have to be on the [managing] Committee [aka Board] of an organization to make a difference! One of the reasons we put a fair number of things out to this mailing list is to invite your feedback and comment. The other is to invite participation; as we proceed towards encouraging and supporting the community, we'll certainly be grateful of any help, enthusiasm or energy you can provide. There are a few projects and initiatives that we'll be circulating here. You've already started to see requests for Grant support; there's certainly the annual technical conference LCA which can always use your help. We're working to implement a membership database so we can make joining LA easier, to go along with a makeover of our website to make information more accessible. And, we're looking into other ways to support the community. So, if you see something that catches your eye in the weeks and months ahead, and you think you'd like to contribute, just let us know! AfC Secretary [until y'all boot me out next summer] Linux Australia -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew@operationaldynamics.com.au From anarchisttomato@yahoo.com.au Tue May 20 11:02:48 2003 Received: from web20305.mail.yahoo.com (web20305.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.86]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4K32Toi032191 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:02:48 +0800 Message-ID: <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.29.96.159] by web20305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2003 13:02:27 EST From: =?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?= Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 11:03:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:02:27 +1000 (EST) While everyone's still on this thread, it seems to be getting a bit OT, I'm sorting through all of this, please change it to ..... was: Grant aplpication #2, or else I'll get a headache quickly, lol. John http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From anarchisttomato@yahoo.com.au Tue May 20 11:13:54 2003 Received: from web20301.mail.yahoo.com (web20301.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.82]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4K3DXoi001007 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:13:54 +0800 Message-ID: <20030520031331.16432.qmail@web20301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.29.96.159] by web20301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2003 13:13:31 EST From: =?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?= Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030519143357.GP20447@lazarus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 11:14:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:13:31 +1000 (EST) --- Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff > Waugh wrote: > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering > doing this, that you'd be > > > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group > or sub-committee or some > > > > other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or > another appropriate, > > > > existing association). > > > > I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia > separate is probably a > > good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent > view of Linux Australia > > and other groups. > > (For what it's worth, I really strongly agree.) > > - Jeff I'll second that, I think the *nix population in general would be pretty annoyed and bored with an 'organisation friendly' slanted magazine. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue May 20 11:16:56 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4K3Gcoi001377 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:16:56 +0800 Received: from orthanc.middlearth.net.au (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 20 May 2003 12:46:35 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: John Knight Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-Id: <20030520124701.5c279874.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="Nq8yhOvWeXP=.cX7" Subject: [Linux-aus] Helping Linux-Aus Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 11:17:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:47:01 +0930 --Nq8yhOvWeXP=.cX7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok... Is there a list where volunteers can lurk and a coordinator (probably the committee) can say things like: "L.A. needs [a pouch of tobacco | someone to wash the dishes]"...i.e. is this the appropriate list? DSL --Nq8yhOvWeXP=.cX7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yZ4tNBhAwwyvg/kRArUHAJ9j16uZN/Pih2dy7ecm8oYi3XOQ/wCeMy05 qTb/arn1evPBMebgTjYoa5M= =kjhI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq8yhOvWeXP=.cX7-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 11:17:26 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4K3HBoi001454 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:17:25 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593CC13CBC for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:21:36 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305201121.35889.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] contributing to LA (was: Grant) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 11:19:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:21:35 +0800 On Tue, 20 May 2003 10:12, Andrew Cowie wrote: > [My, hasn't this thread wavered from it's title?] Never seen _that_ happen before. ( :-) > On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 11:22, Leon Brooks wrote: >> Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election >> as proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, >> with or without office. > I'd like to pick up on Leon's last point. I've heard tell that one of > the challenges faced by many of the Community / User Group style > associations here in Australia is that the Committee ends up doing > all the work, to the benefit of the membership. > This is fine, of course, and willingness to put work in is one of the > criteria to being nominated to the Committee of any volunteer > organization. > I have, however, heard from quite a few people who indicate a > willingness to participate and contribute. You don't have to be on > the [managing] Committee [aka Board] of an organization to make a > difference! Case in point: MissKim - no board/committee, no formal organisation at all, but she's certainly making a difference! Note that she's both helping and being helped by LA, the ideal circumstance. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From xfesty@computeraddictions.com.au Tue May 20 15:43:25 2003 Received: from quack.2xstreams.com ([216.158.96.65]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4K7gwoi030202 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 15:43:25 +0800 Received: from computeraddictions.com.au (dsl2-60.gw1.adl1.airnet.com.au [202.174.37.60]) by phunkrepublic.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4K7geN19471; Tue, 20 May 2003 00:42:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Stewart Smith , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, committee@linux.org.au To: Con Zymaris From: Ryan Verner In-Reply-To: <20030519015624.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 0.5.4 (v22 Jaguar) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 15:44:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:12:42 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:26 AM, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:02:36PM +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: >> Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, > > Stewart, you really must tell me how you manage to type on your laptop, > whilst sky-diving and whilst wearing breathing apparatus... *G* Apple Airport - don't underestimate its power. R > -- > _______________________________________________________________________ > ______ > Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 > 9621 2377 > Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development > www.cyber.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 ICQ: 76626240 IRC: xf / irc.oublinet.net PH: +61 418 186 604 EQ: Mummer (Bard), Tholuxe In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+ydx1Rcxk39PM6wcRAod7AJ9W6u104FxMZGQpotHFeWG3CiCaFACggeFg konGZo9dof0wMPBEnMyApRc= =CbTC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andrew@operationaldynamics.com.au Tue May 20 21:31:30 2003 Received: from procyon.mobeous.net (dyn56.syd1.homedsl.pacific.net.au [203.100.232.56]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4KDV2oi002628 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 21:31:29 +0800 Received: (qmail 20264 invoked by uid 1000); 20 May 2003 13:30:38 -0000 From: Andrew Cowie To: Linux Australia Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Operational Dynamics Message-Id: <1053437438.19923.20.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4- Subject: [Linux-aus] OSI weighs in on the SCO case Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 20 21:32:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 20 May 2003 23:30:38 +1000 [Google News pointed at an article running on Slashdot, pointing at this article, largely authored by Eric Raymond] We had a discussion here last week about the history of Unix, the AT&T vs BSD lawsuit, and the suit launched by SCO against IBM. The Open Source Initiative has weighed in with an amicus cuirae brief. http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html It makes for insightful reading. AfC -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew@operationaldynamics.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed May 21 11:40:42 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4L3e7oi028100 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 11:40:42 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825EE13CBC; Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45:07 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@slpwa.asn.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] Statement on SCO Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 11:41:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45:07 +0800 I'd like to see a joint official statement from LA and SLPWA on SCO's storm-in-a-teacup and get it into the newspapers. Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to intellectual property), and assuring the business community that using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. The idea is to complement Con's release rather than reiterating it, to show FOSS groups acting cooperatively, and to get two more names before the public eye in a positive light. Before I set fingers to keyboard, I'd like to hear Jeremy Malcolm's pro-bono opinion on the above points, and y'all opining both on the content front and the desirability or otherwise of a joint media statement. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed May 21 14:27:17 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4L6Qsoi013756 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 14:27:17 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030EB13CBC; Wed, 21 May 2003 14:32:03 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 14:28:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:32:03 +0800 On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45, Leon Brooks wrote: > Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission > process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the > kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring > SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities > (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), > deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation > by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual > property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking > to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to > intellectual property), and assuring the business community that > using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. OK... take 1: BEGIN SPIEL Linux Australia (LA) and the Society of Linux Professionals Western Australia (SLPWA) have come under increasing pressure to respond to the Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) accusations of wholesale code plagiarism in the Linux kernel. SCO continue to disparage the quality control systems involved in assembling the Linux kernel, but those systems have driven Linux development to capabilities only dreamed of by SCO's own UNIX product, and at a much higher pace. Linux now runs on SGI's 64-to-512-processor Altix 3000 systems, and powers thousand-processor Beowulf supercomputing clusters. The same Linux quality control systems would have seen the modification or almost certainly rejection of any code from SCO UNIX, no matter how well disguised. The internals of the two systems are arranged in a very different manner, so it would make little sense to graft code from one kernel into the other. The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many substantial errors of fact like this, which leads LA and SLPWA to the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their suit. SCO have freely published the source code in question themselves for some considerable time after filing the complaint under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the Linux kernel from subversion, so even if the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal sense. Many important industry commentators are concluding that widespread Linux adoption is not just safe but inevitable. We also note that Microsoft have now bought a licence to use UNIX code from SCO despite having no real purpose for it. That act appears to be designed to sustain the confusion raised by SCO's mistake. We openly appeal to SCO to admit their mistake, apologise and withdraw their charge. We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is running out of growth areas, and will die if they do not grow, and assert that unless they are prepared to become consistently trustworthy, fair players they will not easily be able to enter the new markets they will inevitably need. END SPIEL Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 14:52:42 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-06.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.38]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4L6qJoi016513 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 14:52:42 +0800 Received: (qmail 27990 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 06:44:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 06:44:40 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB2A8C0F8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:44:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04706-06 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:44:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD848C0EE for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:44:45 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E26F912B6B0; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:44:44 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Reply-By: Sat May 24 16:37:53 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:37:53 up 17 days, 22:55, 10 users, load average: 0.22, 0.16, 0.10 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 14:53:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:44:44 +1000 > We also note that Microsoft have now bought a licence to use UNIX code > from SCO despite having no real purpose for it. That act appears to be > designed to sustain the confusion raised by SCO's mistake. > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is running > out of growth areas, and will die if they do not grow, and assert that > unless they are prepared to become consistently trustworthy, fair players > they will not easily be able to enter the new markets they will inevitably > need. Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. You will make a much stronger point if you stick to the facts, and don't delve into emotional crap that interests no one else but us (this harmed the otherwise very good OSI position paper too). Further comments on subsequent reads. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "What inspired you to become a bus driver?" "Linus Torvalds." From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Wed May 21 15:06:38 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4L76Goi018082 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 15:06:37 +0800 Received: from .localdomain.fake (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:35:52 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Jeff Waugh Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-Id: <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 15:07:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:36:18 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeff, > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. I'd also point out: What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? I thought *anyone* could purchase such a licence, just that the licence was beyond the usual individuals' or companies' reach. Also the "Microsoft shouldn't be purchasing Unix licences" camp fall into another particular trap. If we want to share our ideas a community, we place them under the GPL/BSD licence or whatever. That is to say, the open source community respects the open source licences. So, if Microsoft decide to use some of the Unix source code to improve their line of products shouldn't they behave themselves and purchase the correct licence? Sure...it will cost them more than if Unix (that thing owned by SCO) were under the BSD licence or GPL but they're still playing by the rules. So, at one minute we're saying "Learn as a community, play by the rules" but then saying "But we don't want Microsoft to learn from a community". I find that illogical. (but my logic often is convoluted and fails me) DSL - -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yyVpNBhAwwyvg/kRAoKkAJ9tBhDcJKZGAQN5H25rtP7fDmLs+wCZARvY f7KLY29qoha+QLNBsYABj80= =LHFt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 15:14:15 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4L7DYoi018901 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 15:14:15 +0800 Received: (qmail 5328 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 07:02:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 07:02:28 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338298C0F8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:02:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24691-07 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:02:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC03E8C0EE for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:02:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D3E0812B6B0; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:02:28 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521070228.GQ20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Reply-By: Sat May 24 16:59:19 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:59:19 up 17 days, 23:17, 10 users, load average: 0.17, 0.11, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 15:15:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:02:28 +1000 > OK... take 1: Actually, before I comment on the content further... Who is the audience (assuming that it's not the same audience who have already read the OSI position statement)? Does this speak to them? Is it relevant to them? Does it provide more information to them than a pointer to and statement of support of the OSI position paper? What is the message you're trying to get across to this audience? Has someone already said it better? Will this add to the debate, or detract from it through signal-to-noise? It's a good doc, but I'm not sure who it's for / why it's needed / whether its better than existing material. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "People who paid for bug fixes in the 3c501 driver also bought MacIIfx support contracts..." - Alan Cox From conz@cyber.com.au Wed May 21 16:20:30 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4L8K9oi026344 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:20:29 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA11398; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:01:03 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 164F657BADD; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:01:02 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Leon Brooks Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 16:21:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:01:02 +1000 On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 02:32:03PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45, Leon Brooks wrote: > > Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission > > process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the > > kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring > > SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities > > (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), > > deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation > > by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual > > property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking > > to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to > > intellectual property), and assuring the business community that > > using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. > > OK... take 1: > > BEGIN SPIEL > > Linux Australia (LA) and the Society of Linux Professionals Western > Australia (SLPWA) have come under increasing pressure to respond to the > Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) accusations of wholesale code plagiarism > in the Linux kernel. > > SCO continue to disparage the quality control systems involved in > assembling the Linux kernel, but those systems have driven Linux > development to capabilities only dreamed of by SCO's own UNIX product, > and at a much higher pace. Linux now runs on SGI's 64-to-512-processor > Altix 3000 systems, and powers thousand-processor Beowulf > supercomputing clusters. Recommend to spend as little time as possible on a technical pro-Linux stance, even though we all agree with these statements. How about: "SCO were once a dominant player in the Unix-on-Intel marketplace, yet failed to capitalise on this dominance with their legacy UNIX platform. Linux, written from the ground-up, in a public and openly accountable manner, has managed to fairly-and-squarely defeat SCO's product line, by offering a better product at better value, benefitting all consumers of IT. SCO is pursuing this case in a desperate effort to compete by way of baseless injection of fear and doubt rather than through legitimate open and fair competition" ... > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. Acts such as this, are also Microsoft's only means of trying to slow the rampant growth of Linux and lend weight to industry-wide realisation that the company has no other methods for dealing with Linux's threat to their core product line." con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 16:32:47 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-03.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.35]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4L8WToi027712 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 16:32:47 +0800 Received: (qmail 25395 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 08:29:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 08:29:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E708C0F8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 18:30:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04706-09 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 18:30:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931708C0EE for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 18:30:03 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9D54D12B6B0; Wed, 21 May 2003 18:30:02 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Reply-By: Sat May 24 18:28:57 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 18:28:57 up 18 days, 46 min, 10 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 16:33:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:30:02 +1000 > > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is > > "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support > SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no verifiable evidence". ;-) Why all the effort to score points on MS? - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ The implementation of any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from pr0n. From mikal@stillhq.com Wed May 21 17:06:36 2003 Received: from mta05bw.bigpond.com (mta05bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.95]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4L96Goi031424 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 17:06:36 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([144.135.24.72]) by mta05bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta05bw Jul 16 2002 22:47:55) with SMTP id HF8BYB00.4QP; Wed, 21 May 2003 19:06:11 +1000 Received: from CPE-203-51-26-250.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.26.250]) by bwmam02.bigpond.com(MAM V3.3.2 11/9225173); 21 May 2003 19:06:11 Received: from localhost (mikal@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08425; Wed, 21 May 2003 18:46:13 +1000 From: Michael Still X-Sender: To: Leon Brooks cc: , Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 17:07:24 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:46:12 +1000 On Wed, 21 May 2003, Leon Brooks wrote: > I'd like to see a joint official statement from LA and SLPWA on SCO's > storm-in-a-teacup and get it into the newspapers. You should talk to AUUG about coming to the party -- they have good media contacts as well, and should be seen to take a stance on this. Cheers, Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal@stillhq.com) | Stage 1: Steal underpants http://www.stillhq.com | Stage 2: ???? UTC + 10 | Stage 3: Profit From conz@cyber.com.au Wed May 21 20:03:36 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4LC3Goi018123 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 20:03:35 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA12912; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:03:10 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 47F5F57BADD; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:03:09 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David Lloyd Cc: Jeff Waugh , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 20:04:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:03:08 +1000 On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 04:36:18PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Jeff, > > > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. > > I'd also point out: > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to this fact? Not a chance. Although I'd agree with Jeff and possibly excise any comments on Microsoft, if Leon wants to include something, we need to ensure that people understand that Microsoft's actions in no way validate SCO's position. The only reason that Microsoft has elected to act in this way, at this juncture, as should be obvious to all observers, is to seek maximal damage to Linux, and try and fan Microsoft's claim that Linux is somehow 'illegal' or a 'cancerous infliction' on righteous and proper firms like SCO. This is why Microsoft has been claiming '...unlike some, we respect the intellectual property rights of others.' Oh really? Read this: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml and this: Timeline has won a recent ruling which exposes all Microsoft SQL Server developers to a serious patent encumbrance. The following was reported in the trade-press: The judgment concerns a contract dispute between Timeline Inc. and Microsoft, over three patents relating to datamarts. In Microsoft's interpretration of its licence with Timeline, published in a press release in July 1999, "all users of Microsoft SQL Server 7, Office 2000 and other Microsoft products that utilize this type of technology are unencumbered by Timeline's patents." Timeline disagreed. The Washington Court of Appeal judgement plumped for the company. The company reckons that some SQL Server developers could face bills in the millions of dollars. The "damages they face may be material to Timeline's future financial results," Charles Osenbaugh, Timeline's president and CEO. (Sources: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/29419.html and http://news.com.com/2100-1001- 985359.html) con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz@cyber.com.au Wed May 21 20:11:24 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4LCAuoi019000 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 20:11:23 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA12982 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:10:51 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E7BB457BADD; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:10:50 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 20:12:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:10:50 +1000 On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 06:30:02PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > > > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is > > > > "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support > > SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. > > I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no > verifiable evidence". ;-) Invoking the Prince in all matters of deceitful practice is always fun, no? > > Why all the effort to score points on MS? Don't look at me :-) I'm merely making a suggestion to slightly polish Leon's original piece. con ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 20:32:51 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-02.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.34]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4LCWAoi021414 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 20:32:51 +0800 Received: (qmail 11291 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 12:28:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 12:28:54 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3448C0F8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:28:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00815-02 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:28:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8BE8C0EE for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:28:55 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2360712B6B0; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:28:54 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> Reply-By: Sat May 24 22:25:54 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 22:25:54 up 18 days, 4:43, 10 users, load average: 0.00, 0.04, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 20:35:03 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:28:54 +1000 > > I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no > > verifiable evidence". ;-) > > Invoking the Prince in all matters of deceitful practice is always fun, > no? If you were doing a parody of yourself, sure. "Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!" > ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark > fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 So, it's okay for us to be as thoroughly stupid as the sensationalist press that has built and tugged this story for all it's worth? I would like to see some pretty solid evidence before sticking my nose into the conspiracy theorist's pie... - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "But in the software world, that's daily business." - Kent Beck "That's pissing money away and leaving scar tissue." - Alan Cooper From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 20:35:56 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-03.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.35]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4LCZZoi021793 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 20:35:56 +0800 Received: (qmail 3289 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 12:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 12:25:06 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39798C0F8; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:25:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18779-02; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:25:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D578C0EE; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:25:11 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 98C7412B6B0; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:25:10 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Con Zymaris Cc: David Lloyd , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Con Zymaris , David Lloyd , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> Reply-By: Sat May 24 22:16:52 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 22:16:52 up 18 days, 4:34, 10 users, load average: 0.37, 0.12, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 20:37:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:25:10 +1000 > > > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > > > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > > > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. > > > > I'd also point out: > > > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm flabbergasted that everyone is squealing like children about this. We don't have to -> we're better than that. > Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their > current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do > you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to > this fact? Not a chance. Remember also that Caldera's previous target was none other than... Microsoft. Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the real thing"? The fact is, we don't know, it's all conjecture, and we just look like kids pointing at the bogeyman in the closet everytime we complain that Microsoft is "being unfair". We're better than that. > Although I'd agree with Jeff and possibly excise any comments on > Microsoft, if Leon wants to include something, we need to ensure that > people understand that Microsoft's actions in no way validate SCO's > position. Mentioning it validates it. First rule of combative marketing: Never say "there's nothing to see here". It's not relevant to the point (SCO's inane initial filing and subsequent FUD), and it's fact-free FUD repetition (at this stage, because there is *no evidence* to suggest a relationship so far) -> but it's FUD perpetrated by us! > The only reason that Microsoft has elected to act in this way, at this > juncture, as should be obvious to all observers, is to seek maximal damage > to Linux, and try and fan Microsoft's claim that Linux is somehow > 'illegal' or a 'cancerous infliction' on righteous and proper firms like > SCO. > > This is why Microsoft has been claiming '...unlike some, we respect the > intellectual property rights of others.' Oh really? > > Read this: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml > > and this: ... flame, flame, flame... C'mon. We're better than this. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "I tried to make money ass signing, but the bottom fell out of the market." - Liam Quin From brent.w@infosynergy.com.au Wed May 21 20:50:34 2003 Received: from mail.infosynergy.com.au (202-44-172-213.nexnet.net.au [202.44.172.213]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4LCoHoi023477 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 20:50:34 +0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h4LCo8l31954 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au.PROCMAIL; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:50:08 +1000 Received: from ernie.infosynergy.com.au (ernie.infosynergy.com.au [10.254.254.22]) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h4LCo8S31950 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:50:08 +1000 Subject: RE: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-Topic: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Thread-Index: AcMfaYjVN2XzincMR4OOt5ZSZd39RgAJkrdp From: "Brent Wallis" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by mail.infosynergy.com.au id h4LCo8S31950 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 20:51:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:50:03 +1000 Hi, 2 cents worth of input.. Jeff Waugh asked: >Who is the audience >(assuming that it's not the same audience >who have already read the OSI >position statement)? I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or does already make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel Based. Specifically those already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who were considering Linux. I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with POS terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux as the only easy answer. That's not correct, but it is what they suggest. >Does this speak to them? Is it relevant to them? >Does >it provide more information to them than a >pointer to and statement of >support of the OSI position paper? The audience I have suggested is not interested in the technical issues. All comment from "our side" to date, has been directed at US, not the end users in Enterprise. The comments are good, but they don't mean much to an SME. This particular audience, SMEs, may only chose to see that SCO is taking the FOSS movement to task because of perceived plagarism. So much so that SCO seek to charge Linux adopters for code that has appeared in the SMEs chosen platform, namely Linux. If "perception is swung a little further, Open Source for SMEs will suffer a dramatic reversal in current enquiry rates.... (and I will be eating wheat instead of bread....:-) >What is the message you're trying to get >across to this audience? Don't worry all you SMEs. This SCO thing is silly and we consider the whole action a farce deemed to scare you away and prevent you from enjoying the savings and robustness that is inherent in Open Source. We need to offer up a suggestion for enterprises which reflects our concerns but expresses our firm belief in the whole thing being nonsensical, a mere sidestep towards the inevitable. >Has someone already said it better? No, and fairly soon, the issue will filter down from the technical arena and it will be "demystified" for an SMEs easy consumption and understanding. My humble opinion is that this is the area of concern and required action. Can you get something out there that helps to influence the "demystifying text" that will appear if this story gets really mainstream? (By that I mean something like an extended Fin Review article in Fridays edition...the one that an SME operator takes home on the weekend to read and learn because the stories are pertinent yet written for easy consumption...) >Will this add to the debate, or detract >from it through signal-to-noise? If sustained "techy foot-stamping"* concerning this matter hit's an SMEs ears, it will be a bounding leap back for the uptake of Free and Open Source Software. This outcome would probably be fulfilling one of SCOs goals. >It's a good doc, but I'm not sure who it's for / why it's needed / whether >its better than existing material. I concur, a good doc, and I think the idea is sound, but could you consider the SME audience instead? BW *I do not suggest that anyone here is stamping their feet, but there is a rising element of this in many lists and groups concerning SCO. From conz@cyber.com.au Wed May 21 22:35:43 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4LEZGoi001991 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:35:42 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id AAA13776 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 00:35:10 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7027157BADD; Thu, 22 May 2003 00:35:10 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 22:36:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:35:10 +1000 On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:28:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark > > fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 > > So, it's okay for us to be as thoroughly stupid as the sensationalist press > that has built and tugged this story for all it's worth? I would like to see > some pretty solid evidence before sticking my nose into the conspiracy > theorist's pie... I think you missed the point. I was indicating that in the minds of many industry publications (read the headlines) Microsoft is inexorably linked into this issue. What the trade-rags write about one day, the IT public believes the next. Sensationalist? Perhaps. But that's the way the world works. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz@cyber.com.au Wed May 21 22:51:50 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4LEpOoi003770 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 22:51:49 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id AAA13872; Thu, 22 May 2003 00:51:18 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3F16F57BADD; Thu, 22 May 2003 00:51:18 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David Lloyd , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 22:52:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:51:18 +1000 On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:25:10PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > > > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. > > How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence > that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm Where did I state that Microsoft are funding SCO? > flabbergasted that everyone is squealing like children about this. We don't > have to -> we're better than that. My point is that until Microsoft stepped up to the plate to render moral support to SCO, no other major IT firm was saying a good word about them. Microsoft buys into the argument, and suddenly SCO are saying 'look, we told you we had valuable IP rights. In fact, they are so valuable that Microsoft has signed an agreement with us, vindicating our attack on Linux.' Cluelessly aimed red herring? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Thus the posited counter-argument. > > > Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their > > current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do > > you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to > > this fact? Not a chance. > > Remember also that Caldera's previous target was none other than... > Microsoft. Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL > code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the real thing"? Jeff, go and check out what Microsoft are including in SFU. I think you'll find that there is little on offer from SCO Unix which can match the quality of the GPL offerings. > > The fact is, we don't know, it's all conjecture, and we just look like kids > pointing at the bogeyman in the closet everytime we complain that Microsoft > is "being unfair". We're better than that. The aforemention item was an example raised within the confines of the LA mailing list. At no point did I suggest that we run with it publicly. However, the timing of the Microsoft deal with SCO cannot be excused so lightly. Remember, Microsoft aren't including pieces of the Linux kernel in SFU, so SCO's recent rants about IP issues with Linux are not what's causing Microsoft to suddenly sign a deal. Tactically, the only motivator is maximal damage point scoring off Linux, which I believe can be counter-argued effectively. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 23:14:15 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-07.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.39]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4LFDkoi006165 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 23:14:15 +0800 Received: (qmail 1524 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 15:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 15:01:30 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAA68C0F8 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:01:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00815-04 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:01:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75938C0EE for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:01:30 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 203E112B6B0; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:01:30 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521150130.GE20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> Reply-By: Sun May 25 01:00:59 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 01:00:59 up 18 days, 7:18, 11 users, load average: 0.26, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 23:15:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:01:30 +1000 > I think you missed the point. > > I was indicating that in the minds of many industry publications (read the > headlines) Microsoft is inexorably linked into this issue. What the > trade-rags write about one day, the IT public believes the next. > Sensationalist? Perhaps. But that's the way the world works. I think I covered that bit in the 'first rule of combative marketing' response. :-) - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 21 23:18:33 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-06.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.38]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4LFI3oi006658 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 23:18:33 +0800 Received: (qmail 19515 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 15:17:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 21 May 2003 15:17:50 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887D18C0F8 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18779-05 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149028C0EE for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:58 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 31A2612B6B0; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:57 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> Reply-By: Sun May 25 01:02:11 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 01:02:11 up 18 days, 7:20, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.06, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 21 23:22:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:57 +1000 > > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. > > > > How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence > > that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm > > Where did I state that Microsoft are funding SCO? You didn't. You suggested that their actions helped SCO out. > Microsoft buys into the argument, and suddenly SCO are saying 'look, we > told you we had valuable IP rights. In fact, they are so valuable that > Microsoft has signed an agreement with us, vindicating our attack on > Linux.' Cluelessly aimed red herring? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Thus the > posited counter-argument. Unfounded, completely lacking evidence, sensationalist conspiracy theory? Sure! MS have done a business deal for whatever reason. The trade press have hamfisted it up into an issue. Does that require a counter-argument? Jumping to conclusions and giving them the "there's nothing to see here" response is, come to think of it, remarkably like replying to spam on a public mailing list -> it just makes things worse. > Jeff, go and check out what Microsoft are including in SFU. I think you'll > find that there is little on offer from SCO Unix which can match the > quality of the GPL offerings. I use SFU. I know what's in it. My point, which you deftly missed to keep hammering home your own point, was that it doesn't matter what MS wants to do with their license to SCO's UNIX bits. It's irrelevant. > However, the timing of the Microsoft deal with SCO cannot be excused so > lightly. Remember, Microsoft aren't including pieces of the Linux kernel > in SFU, so SCO's recent rants about IP issues with Linux are not what's > causing Microsoft to suddenly sign a deal. Tactically, the only motivator > is maximal damage point scoring off Linux, which I believe can be > counter-argued effectively. Sorry, but this is unfounded, pointing-at-bogeyman silliness. Until someone gets up and publishes a Halloween-class document pointing to conspiratorial intrigue between Microsoft and SCO [1], I don't think we need to validate this inane sensationalist crap by recognising it at all. The fight that matters to us is making a public mockery of SCO's laughable initial filing, pointing out how serious the allegations are and why they matter very deeply to the FOSS community, and coming across as professional, capable, committed and confident in our software and community. Tilting at windmills and wailing at the big-bad-bogeyman of the IT industry is fundamentally irrelevant to those goals. If, however, your goal is to point out the failings of, and poke fun at MS at every opportunity (sometimes, it truly sounds like some people on this list only care about that), please go and have a good read of the Linux Advocacy HOWTO. [ Con, I'm not accusing you of not being a good advocate, I'm suggesting that this particular fight - the whole MS angle on the SCO thing - is not worth your effort. Unless you're in it for the exposure. ;-) ] - Jeff [1] script goes like this: McBride: Hey, you remember how we bought DR-DOS, sued your arses off, and settled for an undisclosed sum that has kept our company going for the last few years? Gates: ... Yes? McBride: So, we were thinking of doing the same to IBM. Wanna join in the fun? Gates: Please get out of my office you slimy, odious rodent. -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Everyone's a little queer, why can't she be a little straight?" - Weezer, Pink Triangle From conz@cyber.com.au Thu May 22 06:47:33 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4LMl3oi022279 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 06:47:33 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id IAA16718 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 08:46:57 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 487B457BADD; Thu, 22 May 2003 08:46:57 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: <20030521224657.GE16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 06:48:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:46:57 +1000 On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:17:57AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > Sorry, but this is unfounded, pointing-at-bogeyman silliness. Until someone > gets up and publishes a Halloween-class document pointing to conspiratorial > intrigue between Microsoft and SCO [1], I don't think we need to validate > this inane sensationalist crap by recognising it at all. Yes, in a perfect world, sticking to what has been validated as fact makes sense. But more often than not, it's perceptions that matter, and not reality. Anyways... > > The fight that matters to us is making a public mockery of SCO's laughable > initial filing, pointing out how serious the allegations are and why they > matter very deeply to the FOSS community, and coming across as professional, > capable, committed and confident in our software and community. > > Tilting at windmills and wailing at the big-bad-bogeyman of the IT industry > is fundamentally irrelevant to those goals. I'll re-iterate my post where I said that I agreed with your idea of excising the stuff about Microsoft. You'll note that in the OSV release, we made no mention of Microsoft at all. My input on Microsoft was in response to Leon's original press-release. ... > > [ Con, I'm not accusing you of not being a good advocate, I'm suggesting > that this particular fight - the whole MS angle on the SCO thing - is not > worth your effort. Unless you're in it for the exposure. ;-) ] How do you figure I'll get exposure from something like this? con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 08:51:37 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M0pBoi003373 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 08:51:36 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A9313CBC; Thu, 22 May 2003 08:56:50 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 08:52:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:56:49 +0800 Jeff Waugh wrote: > Mentioning it validates it. First rule of combative marketing: > Never say "there's nothing to see here". True. What I wish to get across is not "nothing to see here" but "look, Linux's quality controls work, and the licence also works". Jeff also wrote: > Who is the audience (assuming that it's not the same audience who > have already read the OSI position statement)? Does this speak to > them? Brent Wallis replied: > We need to offer up a suggestion for enterprises which reflects > our concerns but expresses our firm belief in the whole thing > being nonsensical, a mere sidestep towards the inevitable. I agree with that. I believe our tactic for this "release" (or whatever) should focus on talking up Linux and FOSS and how well they're coping with spurious attacks. David Lloyd wrote: > So, if Microsoft decide to use some of the Unix source code to > improve their line of products shouldn't they behave themselves > and purchase the correct licence? Sure... it will cost them > more than if Unix (that thing owned by SCO) were under the BSD > licence or GPL but they're still playing by the rules. I join Con on this one in saying that it will not be an improvement on anything they already have. Very little of what SCO have to offer covers anything but the UNIX kernel, and I can't see any use for that in SFU or anything else Microsoft ship. Unless they've noted that in the last week two other 'phone providers have abandoned WinCE, and two *different* 'phone providers have declared for Linux, so are chasing a home-owned embedded derivative of SCO to replace WinCE with. Con Zymaris wrote: > My point is that until Microsoft stepped up to the plate to render > moral support to SCO, no other major IT firm was saying a good word > about them. I think we need to at least undermine this sneaky tactic and possibly make mileage from it. I think the closest we can get to a positive spin on it is mentioning how much Microsoft's approach seems to have improved since the TimeLine/MS-SQL-Server debacle surfaced. I think we need to touch on this - combative marketing rules or no - because it is a fairly direct example of Microsoft doing exactly what SCO is accusing IBM-and-us of. However, Jeff Waugh made another *excellent* point: > Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL > code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the > real thing"? No, and I feel a proper chook for having overlooked this one. (-: IMESHO, Jeff would be a horror to face across a courtroom floor :-) Microsoft would of course be very pleased to be able to stop shipping GPLed code. It's a major stick in their spokes when it comes to deploring the "pacman-like" nature of the GPL. I don't think that SCO have enough bits and pieces to accomplish this completely, especially since the biggest pieces of SFU have nothing to do with the licence MS has bought, but it would at least give Microsoft a bit of a jump-start on winkling this particular thorn from their side. In a way, I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't just buy SCO/Caldera outright, but perhaps they have in mind waiting until SCO's value is less than that of sand in the Sahara and meantime making friendly overtures until the axe falls. Yes, Michael Still, I think rolling AUUG in would also be a good idea, pursuant to which I've added their "talk" list to this message. I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or LA's. If no Australian Linux or FOSS organisations agree on the content or obviously want to take part, I'll make it a release from CyberKnights Pty Ltd. I would prefer to see a harmonious public chorus from our Linux, FOSS and business interests. So... take 2: === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa Cruz Operation (SCO). The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their suit against IBM. One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate SCO's charges. We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous flame of personal or corporate ambition. It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and political senses. === THAT'S ALL, FOLKS === For the curious, http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2000license.htm says, under "SCO OpenServer Release 5" and "SCO UnixWare 7" in the download table, "No Longer Available". They are simply not listed on the FP 2002 page (http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2002supported.htm). It's interesting that FP support for AIX (and for SUSE Linux on S/390) appears to have been discontinued at IBM's request. Jeremy Malcolm has evidently been too snowed under to pitch in, and I would like to wait for his opinion since it is likely to carry significant professional weight. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From andrae.muys@braintree.com.au Thu May 22 09:24:13 2003 Received: from bt01ibri.braintree.com.au ([203.27.201.1]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M1NUoi006787 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:24:12 +0800 Received: from braintree.com.au ([192.168.0.34]) by bt01ibri.braintree.com.au (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4M20kgT030796 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:00:46 +1000 Message-ID: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> From: Andrae Muys User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 09:25:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:23:29 +1000 Brent Wallis wrote: > Hi, > 2 cents worth of input.. > > Jeff Waugh asked: > >>Who is the audience >>(assuming that it's not the same audience >>who have already read the OSI >>position statement)? > > > I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or does already > make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel Based. Specifically those > already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who were considering Linux. > > I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with POS > terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running > an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. > The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex > for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy > route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux > as the only easy answer. > > That's not correct, but it is what they > suggest. > So you have lost money from this farce? Have you approached the ACCC with a complaint of Misleading and Deceptive Conduct? In fact (while IANAL) even if the complaint was demonstrated to be true, the unsubstantiated threat of legal action almost certainly contravenes multiple fair-trading regulations. If you suffer loss to calumny, you have legal and regulatory recourse. As far as mentioning MS, I would recommend against any reference at all. We gain nothing from it, as the timing of the announcement was too blatent to miss; while any mention will be spun to our detriment by any MS sycophant who picks up on it. Better to focus on the primary objective, discrediting SCO. Andrae Muys -- Andrae Muys Engineer Braintree Communications From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 09:38:19 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M1c4oi008406 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:38:19 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC17113CD0; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:43:46 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> In-Reply-To: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305220943.46431.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 09:39:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:43:46 +0800 On Thu, 22 May 2003 09:23, Andrae Muys wrote: > As far as mentioning MS, I would recommend against any reference at > all. We gain nothing from it, as the timing of the announcement was > too blatent to miss; while any mention will be spun to our detriment > by any MS sycophant who picks up on it. Better to focus on the > primary objective, discrediting SCO. I think there is a meta-objective, "encrediting" Linux and the FOSS process. Although it carries some risk, I'm in favour of entangling Microsoft in this one as long as it can be done in such a way that it is difficult to view the mention as just another panicky whinge. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From brent.w@infosynergy.com.au Thu May 22 10:22:22 2003 Received: from mail.infosynergy.com.au (202-44-172-213.nexnet.net.au [202.44.172.213]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M2Lxoi013458 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 10:22:22 +0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h4M2Loc13403 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au.PROCMAIL; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:21:50 +1000 Received: from ernie.infosynergy.com.au (ernie.infosynergy.com.au [10.254.254.22]) by mail.infosynergy.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h4M2LoS13399 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:21:50 +1000 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Thread-Index: AcMgAYJ6hNGYtSKGQ82/sEDzocfT8wABPA6w From: "Brent Wallis" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mail.infosynergy.com.au id h4M2LoS13399 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 10:23:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:21:45 +1000 Hi, Brent Wallis wrote: > Hi, > 2 cents worth of input.. > > Jeff Waugh asked: > >>Who is the audience >>(assuming that it's not the same audience >>who have already read the OSI >>position statement)? > > > I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or > does already make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel > Based. Specifically those already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who > were considering Linux. > > I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with > POS > terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running > an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. > The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex > for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy > route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux > as the only easy answer. > > That's not correct, but it is what they > suggest. > Andrae said: >So you have lost money from this farce? Have you approached the ACCC >with a complaint of Misleading and Deceptive Conduct? Not yet...:) I don't think it will actually come to that. Approaching the ACCC, to me seems a difficult issue because the case is in the US. It's the "delay factor" that matters. The client is relatively high profile and a success in their systems (a given if we get the contract BTW) would enable even more success. Success breeds success....a very old concept. FUD like SCOs (*spit*) is directed at de-stabilising this concept. My concern falls mainly in the slowing down of enquiry and adoption rates. For this client, it could be RH Linux AS this half, next financial half, it "could" be 200 odd Linux desktops. Everything hinges on a smooth and timely install of that first server. From our own point of view, a success with this client is worth more in the "look what Linux can do" arena than the immediate fee revenue. I am sure it isn't just us either, and my concern (believe it or not...)is for the community, not just our pockets. Hell if we loose this, there are always others. If the community is successful, then so are we. If the FOSS community has sh**t flung at it and is perceived as "inadequate" we will suffer as well. It's all about perception and how the community manages it. Rgds BW From jon@ivt.com.au Thu May 22 11:52:08 2003 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au (90-203.dsl.connexus.net.au [203.222.90.203]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M3pnoi023233 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 11:52:08 +0800 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au (jon [127.0.0.1]) by jon.ivt.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M3pqvr003581; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:51:52 +1000 Received: (from jon@localhost) by jon.ivt.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) id h4M3pfEd003578; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:51:41 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: jon.ivt.com.au: jon set sender to jon@ivt.com.au using -f Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG From: Jonathan Oxer To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Internet Vision Technologies Message-Id: <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.3 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 11:53:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 22 May 2003 13:51:41 +1000 Perhaps it needs to be made more clear right up front what this doc is all about. I know that we don't want to validate SCO's spurious claims by restating them, but maybe it could start something like this (Based on Leon's first couple of paras): On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 10:56, Leon Brooks wrote: > === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure > to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa Cruz > Operation (SCO). > > The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before it > is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and > almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal > systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make > little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. becomes: Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) has recently made accusations of code plagiarism against developers involved with creation of the Linux kernel, which forms the core of the Gnu/Linux Free/Open Source operating system. These accusations appear designed to spread doubt within the business community over the continued viability of Linux as a mainstream operating system, by raising the spectre of a potential backlash by SCO against end users of the system. As a result, [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure to respond to these accusations and reassure the business community that widespread adoption of Linux is not only safe but inevitable. The principle argument behind SCO's accusation appears to be that Linux developers have used SCO source code to patch and improve the Linux kernel. However, the extensive quality control systems... [etc, continued from existing para] Just a thought. Cheers Jonathan From conz@cyber.com.au Thu May 22 12:05:33 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M45Doi025023 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:05:33 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA19003; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:05:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DD7C057BADD; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:05:03 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Jonathan Oxer Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 12:06:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:05:03 +1000 On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:51:41PM +1000, Jonathan Oxer wrote: > As a result, [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing > membership pressure to respond to these accusations and reassure the > business community that widespread adoption of Linux is not only safe > but inevitable. > > The principle argument behind SCO's accusation appears to be that Linux > developers have used SCO source code to patch and improve the Linux > kernel. However, the extensive quality control systems... [etc, > continued from existing para] This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From chris@sw.oz.au Thu May 22 12:42:10 2003 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (ext.aurema.com [203.31.96.4]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M4fpoi029019 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:42:10 +0800 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sw.oz.au with ESMTP id h4M4dgDN011738; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:39:42 +1000 (EST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au id h4M4dc2M011735; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:39:38 +1000 (EST) From: Chris Maltby To: Con Zymaris Cc: Jonathan Oxer , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: B0 4D AD F5 B8 2A 43 26 58 41 74 BF 36 5F 41 20 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 12:43:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:39:38 +1000 On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:05:03PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the > 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to > be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. Nebulous is right. I wonder if there could possibly be any trade secrets left in Unix after all this time and the publication of books such as Bernie Goodheart's. Maybe they can show how copyrighted code has been "borrowed", but I'd be surprised if there's more than a tiny bit that's arguable. Any assessment of damage would depend on a measuring the actual damage to SCO (small) and any exemplary or punitive damages would depend on a finding about intent. That brings the whole thing firmly into the world of politics. The co-incident annoucement of Microsoft licensing Unix from SCO, supposedly for improvement of its Unix Services for Windows product, becomes noteworthy in this context. After all, Microsoft are not neutral when it comes to Linux; and other than in the fevered dreams of Scott McNeally, Windows vs Unix is no longer an interesting battle. I suppose we'll have fun watching it play out in the courts and possibly create FUD in the minds of would-be corporate adopters of Linux... Chris From jon@ivt.com.au Thu May 22 13:11:40 2003 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au (90-203.dsl.connexus.net.au [203.222.90.203]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M5BCoi032316 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:11:40 +0800 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au (jon [127.0.0.1]) by jon.ivt.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M5BCJL001453; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:11:12 +1000 Received: (from jon@localhost) by jon.ivt.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) id h4M5BCAf001451; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:11:12 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: jon.ivt.com.au: jon set sender to jon@ivt.com.au using -f Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG From: Jonathan Oxer To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Internet Vision Technologies Message-Id: <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.3 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 13:12:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 22 May 2003 15:11:12 +1000 On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 14:39, Chris Maltby wrote: > On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:05:03PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the > > 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to > > be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. Sure, but my point was primarily that the document should be reasonably self-explanatory to a PHB who doesn't know the background, but sees some headline that "SCO is suing Linux" and comes running to the IT department to make sure they "get rid of all that Linux software that was pirated from SCO". The IT dude should be able to point to the document, which the PHB then reads, breathes a sigh of relief that the allegations are a load of hogwash and he's not in any danger, and goes on about his business. > I suppose we'll have fun watching it play out in the courts > and possibly create FUD in the minds of would-be corporate > adopters of Linux... Problem is it's exactly that FUD that needs to be defused in the minds of the PHBs. Cheers Jonathan From maddog@li.org Thu May 22 13:14:57 2003 Received: from localhost.localdomain (pool-64-223-180-48.man.east.verizon.net [64.223.180.48]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M5Eboi032713 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:14:56 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4M5HcLZ001980; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:38 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h4M5Hahu001976; Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:37 -0400 Message-Id: <200305220517.h4M5Hahu001976@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Chris Maltby cc: Con Zymaris , Jonathan Oxer , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Maltby of "Thu, 22 May 2003 14:39:38 +1000." <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 13:15:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:36 -0400 Hi, I have been watching your conversations. I approve of your movement from one of stark "Let's rip their eyes out" to one of calming the businesses to let them know that "this too will pass". Know that IF this legal battle in the US is won by SCO, it will be on nits and examinations and on legal points of law. By any other measure SCO will be told to go pound sand. Therefore you have to be careful about what you say to the letter of the law. For example (and I am not purposely pointing out one individual's words, just giving an example): > The co-incident annoucement of Microsoft licensing Unix from SCO, > supposedly for improvement of its Unix Services for Windows product, > becomes noteworthy in this context. Microsoft can not license Unix from SCO, because SCO does not own Unix. SCO owns a code stream of licensed and sub-licensed code that came originally from AT&T. The BRAND and Trademarked term Unix is owned by the Open Group, and is used for branding many code streams as Unix compatible. The most that Microsoft could have licensed from SCO is insurance protection from SCO's patents and intellectual property that existed in that code stream, which is probably negligible or non-existent in Microsoft's code. By loosely using the legal terms, you lend some credibility to SCO's claims that the free software community does not (or can not) follow the rules. State your case simply and clearly, without pretending to know what the other person is thinking. Warmest regards, md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From grog@lemis.com Thu May 22 14:37:57 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M6bUoi009164 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37:54 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A86B5527A6; Thu, 22 May 2003 16:07:23 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Leon Brooks Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AKkMM/tm2Mk6Yn/s" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 14:38:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:07:23 +0930 --AKkMM/tm2Mk6Yn/s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 8:56:49 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > In a way, I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't just buy SCO/Caldera > outright, Maybe that's not their goal? > but perhaps they have in mind waiting until SCO's value is less than > that of sand in the Sahara and meantime making friendly overtures > until the axe falls. Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied since the lawsuits were announced. > Yes, Michael Still, I think rolling AUUG in would also be a good > idea, pursuant to which I've added their "talk" list to this > message. Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on talk@. I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. > I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those > are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view > which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or LA's. This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. > If no Australian Linux or FOSS organisations agree on the content or > obviously want to take part, I'll make it a release from > CyberKnights Pty Ltd. I would prefer to see a harmonious public > chorus from our Linux, FOSS and business interests. I don't see why CyberKnights shouldn't make a statement too. > === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > Cruz Operation (SCO). I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. > The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before > it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and > almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal > systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make > little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. The second point is much more plausible than the first. Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to convince your audience. And that takes too long. > The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many > substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to > the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their > evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their > suit against IBM. > > One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of > processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on > 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many > people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux > performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on significant numbers of CPUs. Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case which some people would believe. > SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the > terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the > Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if > the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. We don't know that. They don't say how long. They don't say that the code which IBM supposedly introduced was actually in their distro. It might just have been in the development kernels. Since they don't say what it was, it's difficult to counter. > Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to > "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but > while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed software > itself for political reasons, their move does not validate SCO's > charges. This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised > more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL > than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous flame > of personal or corporate ambition. > > It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of > virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and > political senses. Wearing my devil's advocate horns, this somehow doesn't ring true. I'm not sure why, but I suspect that it won't be enough to counter SCO's FUD. You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say--I hope you'll agree with the points I made--but I haven't said very much myself. There's a good reason for that, and it's also the reason why AUUG hasn't made a stand on the subject: I'm still trying to understand the implications. But we need to be very careful about what we do say. Of one thing I am certain: this lawsuit *does* have the potential to do serious damage to Linux. Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. I do have a web page on the subject, at http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Note that these are my personal opinions and have no relationship to any official AUUG standpoint. Discussion welcome. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --AKkMM/tm2Mk6Yn/s Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+zHAjIubykFB6QiMRAv/0AJ92MJgufqeoyXQcwZtsjzKzuMDowQCgo8nV 1/32hrV83MkLI8yBZfLjG/o= =SqCL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AKkMM/tm2Mk6Yn/s-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 15:30:06 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M7Tkoi014751 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:30:05 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42B113CBC; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:35:38 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 15:31:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:35:38 +0800 On Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied > since the lawsuits were announced. Only because the investors think they might get a substantial windfall, which IRL is extremely unlikely. > Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on > talk@. I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. True, but I've seen messages from you and Maddog, which is a roaring start. (-: >> I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those >> are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view >> which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or >> LA's. > This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and > Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) > statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD > is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. I guess we should cover some ground for them, then. (-: > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. True, they are now "The SCO Group" according to their website, having briefly been Caldera since their S-C-O days. >> The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass >> before it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively >> modify and almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The >> internal systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it >> would make little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into >> the other. > The second point is much more plausible than the first. Agree. > Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to at least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to start. > Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to > convince your audience. And that takes too long. Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how much time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. I think this will be as much as we can achieve without labouring the point, and I think we need to ping this concept occasionally anyway, since many PHBs assume no quality control and it's something that Microsoft pumps as often as it can. After the flood, no raindrop will admit responsibility. (-: >> The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many >> substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to >> the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their >> evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their >> suit against IBM. >> One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of >> processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on >> 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many >> people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux >> performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. > I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on > significant numbers of CPUs. They only claim 32 peak. > Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and > Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do > with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could > say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code > (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, > recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just > before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case > which some people would believe. That's precisely what SCO have said. Do you think we need to explicitly touch on input from SGI and others at this point? >> SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the >> terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the >> Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if >> the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. > We don't know that. They don't say how long. True. So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the Linux kernel". That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. >> Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to >> "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but >> while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed >> software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate >> SCO's charges. > This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. Agree. > By all accounts > Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a > license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, > they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being confusing? At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint that the description may not be accurate? >> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their >> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. > The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? Yes. Actions vs words. >> Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised >> more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL >> than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous >> flame of personal or corporate ambition. >> It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of >> virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and >> political senses. > Wearing my devil's advocate horns, this somehow doesn't ring true. > I'm not sure why, but I suspect that it won't be enough to counter > SCO's FUD. That's fine - as long as what we wind up with _is_ if not enough to counter, then enough to keep poor conclusions from being jumped at. > You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: > I hope you'll agree with the points I made Some of them. (-: > but I haven't said very much myself. > There's a good reason for that, and it's also the reason why AUUG > hasn't made a stand on the subject: I'm still trying to understand > the implications. But we need to be very careful about what we do > say. Of one thing I am certain: this lawsuit *does* have the > potential to do serious damage to Linux. Look at the effect on BSD > of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD > weren't even involved in that lawsuit. Agree. > I do have a web page on the subject, at > http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Note that these are my personal > opinions and have no relationship to any official AUUG standpoint. Ta! Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris@csamuel.org Thu May 22 15:35:21 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (vic42-adsl-022.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M7Z2oi015371 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:35:20 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34B74417; Thu, 22 May 2003 03:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 15:36:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:34:56 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- /* * Sorry about the rampant cross-post, just felt it was important to clear up * some points in Greg's post. */ On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > > Cruz Operation (SCO). > > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. SCO who were the Santa Cruz Operation are now Tarantella, they sold their OS division to Caldera in 2001 and then changed the name. http://www.tarantella.com/about/history.html Caldera became The SCO Group in 2002, and there doesn't appear to be any mention of "Santa Cruz Operation" any more. They've actually just changed name again, on the 16th May the shareholders approved renaming the company "The SCO Group, Inc." instead of just "The SCO Group". http://www.sco.com/company/history.html > I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on > significant numbers of CPUs. You also need to be very clear about whether you are talking about SCO Unix or Unixware. The former is SCO's, the latter is the renamed System V Release 4 from USG that Novell had before they sold it to Caldera (and AT&T had before them). This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). > Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and > Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do > with the SCO code base. Don't get into the trap of confusing Unixware and SCO Unix! > This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts > Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a > license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, > they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. Microsoft has had copyright messages in System V since around 1987, because of the original SCO's work on Xenix which MS released in 1980 (remember that SCO did the work under subcontract for MS, and the fall out from this is why SCO took MS to the European Commission in the late 1990's. See the webpage at: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/tale.shtml for more). > > We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > > software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. > > The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for SCO Unix, Unixware or both. > Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. > FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsx9oI1yjaOTJg85AQFAkQgAoPhjn2ysKinGyg1uC4zj8f2WlLwAOO+8 RRMKRnw7eSk6wDO9ZIsOCxwfcX4gddAPCBYNDNHveiQy+UnIORYkCvm0/zDGgUT2 hm0rZSvDThklX5MXlk1lCcpaUHrQT9Gofuc29CA1pm8bSxzGpe90C3C97K2GBKEU UvH6nLq0IQZ8dLuvP8FJbllIC3C6Qtr8eJacpeaTOHQa0eMB5jGiHZPNOXVM7Rvb HzwuvAtRBb5jf2r2IUU6wIK92gMfAUZ6/h/lbLOq79Zik1FuxLz4Y7ZahXLYCvGD EEDyhLzFDeJc1nwdM82C0oknd1/hDusEXilr8i/HmjXB/PN8RmLXiQ== =XLnH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 15:59:28 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M7x7oi017978 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:59:28 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B747813CBC; Thu, 22 May 2003 16:05:00 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305221605.00185.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 16:00:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:05:00 +0800 On Thu, 22 May 2003 15:34, Chris Samuel wrote: > * Sorry about the rampant cross-post Necessary, for a few days, methinks. >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of >>> their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. >> The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the > issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for > SCO Unix, Unixware or both. http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2000license.htm says "SCO OpenServer Release 5" on one entry and "SCO UnixWare 7" on another. The FP2002 pages don't even mention them. IMESHO it doesn't matter exactly which family they're from - although it would help if there were direct overlap - the key issue is that Microsoft reeled in their support for SCO products. Detailed clarification is probably overload for a press release unless it's critical to understanding a central issue. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From grog@lemis.com Thu May 22 16:36:19 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M8Zqoi022260 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 16:36:16 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D7A8B527A6; Thu, 22 May 2003 18:05:50 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Samuel Cc: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZgGN478A9hzzvyZc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 16:37:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:05:50 +0930 --ZgGN478A9hzzvyZc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >> significant numbers of CPUs. > > You also need to be very clear about whether you are talking about SCO Unix or > Unixware. The former is SCO's, the latter is the renamed System V Release 4 > from USG that Novell had before they sold it to Caldera (and AT&T had before > them). > > This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. After reading the complaint, I'm not sure what this case is about. But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software here. > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went > System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD > kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. > (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). It took Sun approximately until SunOS 2.5 to get reasonable SMP support. They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, also known as UnixWare). >> Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and Solaris do, but you can be >> pretty sure that that has nothing to do with the SCO code base. > > Don't get into the trap of confusing Unixware and SCO Unix! Not a hope. I was present at the launch of UnixWare (of which I also have a complete software set), and made a lot of money out of it. I sold Univel 10,000 CDs of free software (the software was free, the CDs weren't), and they only sold a fraction of that number of UnixWare licenses worldwide in the first year. >> This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts >> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > > Microsoft has had copyright messages in System V since around 1987, Yes, this was System V.3.2, which merged XENIX and (I think) SunOS 4 functionality into System V. Earlier versions weren't very compatible with XENIX. > because of the original SCO's work on Xenix which MS released in > 1980 (remember that SCO did the work under subcontract for MS, and > the fall out from this is why SCO took MS to the European Commission > in the late 1990's. See the webpage at: > > http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/tale.shtml > > for more). Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the background. Of course, some of the stuff is contradictory: Looking further back to 1980, we find Microsoft developing a commercial version of Unix called Xenix under license from AT&T. Actually, Microsoft didn't develop Xenix, though they did obtain a license from AT&T to do so -- and subcontracted the actual coding to SCO. By the time SCO acquired it, the archaic Xenix code had more than outlived its technical usefulness. One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users out there even today. >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their >>> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. >> >> The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > > Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the > issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for > SCO Unix, Unixware or both. It's a valid distinction, but I don't know how important it is. >> Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years >> ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. > > FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. Of course they did. I was there in the middle of it. The NetBSD project was founded on 21 March 1983. The FreeBSD project was founded on 19 June 1983 (and we're having a party at my place round then; watch this space). The initial complaint was filed on 20 April 1992, before 386/BSD had spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD, but it carried on until early 1994. > There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk > McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Yes, it's correct. To quote: Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to be freely redistributed. Thanks for the info. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --ZgGN478A9hzzvyZc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+zIvmIubykFB6QiMRAqSVAJ9Z9b0oW9heM/3rN4j8F1gjiz6k6ACfcvQH PO5cMlXC9yGDXgxQHFIgbYU= =7f5x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZgGN478A9hzzvyZc-- From grog@lemis.com Thu May 22 16:53:48 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M8rJoi024227 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 16:53:44 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9DDCD527A6; Thu, 22 May 2003 18:23:17 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Leon Brooks Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread Message-ID: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4NNqsQ/a67jpuySk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 16:54:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:23:17 +0930 --4NNqsQ/a67jpuySk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 15:35:38 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied >> since the lawsuits were announced. > > Only because the investors think they might get a substantial > windfall, which IRL is extremely unlikely. I don't disagree, but it's possible that this was intended. >> Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on >> talk@. I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. > > True, but I've seen messages from you and Maddog, which is a roaring > start. (-: I think Maddog's on the Linux Australia list, not talk@auug.org.au. >>> I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those >>> are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view >>> which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or >>> LA's. >> >> This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and >> Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) >> statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD >> is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. > > I guess we should cover some ground for them, then. (-: Sure, go for it. >> Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. > > ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to at > least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to start. That's a valid intention, but is now the time? It's not relevant to the complaint, and it will tend to confuse people. I'd personally be more inclined to drop it. >> Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to >> convince your audience. And that takes too long. > > Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following > statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how much > time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. It might be worth making a core statement (can I say that without sounding like a policitian?), and maybe making some PS statements at the end. The question of QC should be a PS. > I think this will be as much as we can achieve without labouring the > point, and I think we need to ping this concept occasionally anyway, > since many PHBs assume no quality control and it's something that > Microsoft pumps as often as it can. After the flood, no raindrop > will admit responsibility. (-: Agreed, it's worth mentioning at some point. >> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >> significant numbers of CPUs. > > They only claim 32 peak. I'd like to see anywhere where they run on more than 4. They're Intel based, remember? >> Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and >> Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do >> with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could >> say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code >> (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, >> recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just >> before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case >> which some people would believe. > > That's precisely what SCO have said. Do you think we need to explicitly > touch on input from SGI and others at this point? I started writing something about SMP support, with particular reference to IBM, in my SCO page (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). I didn't say anything that isn't public knowledge (for example, Anton Blanchard's 7 second kernel compile using 24 of 32 CPUs, based on a paper presented at AUUG 2002). I know that Anton and the people he works with have had absolutely no exposure to AIX code. Even if they had, the best they could have done with it is to extract the ideas and rewrite it. That's not illegal, as you point out. Nevertheless, I then threw it out again because I was concerned that people could misinterpret it. >>> SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the >>> terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the >>> Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if >>> the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. > >> We don't know that. They don't say how long. > > True. So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the > Linux kernel". Yes, but that nullifies the effect of the statement. > That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need > said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. I think the fact that they've chopped their own kernel makes it pretty clear that they weren't making any money out of it. I think even the PHBs will appreciate that. Assuming that they have identified which parts of the kernel are contaminated, they could simply have reverted to an earlier, non-contaminated version. But I heard as long ago as last September that Caldera hadn't been making any money with Linux, which is why they changed their name back to SCO. > Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. The stuff they're complaining about could easily have been 2.5. >>> Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to >>> "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but >>> while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed >>> software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate >>> SCO's charges. > >> This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. > > Agree. > >> By all accounts >> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > > Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being confusing? > At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint that the > description may not be accurate? I'd be inclined to say pretty much what I just have. That the report is confusing and that the original intention may have been something completely different. There are various rights you can buy to source code. At one point I thought this meant that Microsoft had bought the rights to the UNIX code base from SCO, leaving SCO without those rights. I no longer think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure that a couple of layers of reporters have muddied the waters. >> You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say > > Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: I'd rather have made some positive suggestions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --4NNqsQ/a67jpuySk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+zI/9IubykFB6QiMRAuneAJ9YAFO5GbQqMbJoPwhg0daYpEzrlQCff4/+ VObrnnydLgCY7orxO55SGkQ= =9ED6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4NNqsQ/a67jpuySk-- From chris@sw.oz.au Thu May 22 17:01:52 2003 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (ext.aurema.com [203.31.96.4]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4M91Xoi025191 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 17:01:52 +0800 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sw.oz.au with ESMTP id h4M91PDN024125; Thu, 22 May 2003 19:01:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au id h4M91OsG024118; Thu, 22 May 2003 19:01:24 +1000 (EST) From: Chris Maltby To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Chris Samuel , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Face: #TW5+x&J{Nv(AI7zAMwW{hmXU(7No!i=K69&,iZ!EsO^e: yd>35r$e(HCY$<{a3Zp'4cYWLr;043P8'Of/c4%NmF2IIE'0h`?95'Sbhtx s+Gi$Z%=gu_`g:WQueShb(9*=l)ihL2le~OT>.|C{rQx, List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 22 17:02:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:01:24 +1000 > > There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk > > McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:05:50PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Yes, it's correct. To quote: > > Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by > Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would > rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of > 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had > dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further > prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points > were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January > 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 > that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes > were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add > USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to > be freely redistributed. > > Thanks for the info. There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on to add something like): One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A project was launched to identify the contributors of those borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in the System V source. Chris From grog@lemis.com Fri May 23 07:57:03 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4MNuRoi022797 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 07:57:01 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 34D93527A9; Fri, 23 May 2003 09:26:24 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Maltby Cc: Chris Samuel , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gh9b96O0vZdbsJLX" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 07:58:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:26:24 +0930 --gh9b96O0vZdbsJLX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 19:01:24 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: >>> There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk >>> McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: >>> >>> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html > > On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:05:50PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Yes, it's correct. To quote: >> >> Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by >> Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would >> rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of >> 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had >> dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further >> prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points >> were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January >> 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 >> that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes >> were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add >> USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to >> be freely redistributed. >> >> Thanks for the info. > > There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on > to add something like): > > One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to > have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and > so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source > code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A > project was launched to identify the contributors of those > borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in > the System V source. Are you sure of this? I did some work on syslogd (a BSD program) for a nameless System V vendor a couple of years after the lawsuit was settled, and there was no BSD license in the source. I added one, and it was removed again. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --gh9b96O0vZdbsJLX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+zWOoIubykFB6QiMRAgWVAKCTedGLbY19t476Uibc++uQ6HXw7gCggwL2 OxHcXghP1i1TBoXw/5IVJ4s= =WvJL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gh9b96O0vZdbsJLX-- From conz@cyber.com.au Fri May 23 07:57:59 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4MNvUoi022944 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 07:57:58 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA26379; Fri, 23 May 2003 09:51:09 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2F26E57BADD; Fri, 23 May 2003 09:51:09 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Chris Samuel Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 08:01:23 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:51:08 +1000 On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:34:56PM +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > /* > * Sorry about the rampant cross-post, just felt it was important to clear up > * some points in Greg's post. > */ > > On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > > > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > > > Cruz Operation (SCO). > > > > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. > > SCO who were the Santa Cruz Operation are now Tarantella, they sold their OS > division to Caldera in 2001 and then changed the name. > > http://www.tarantella.com/about/history.html > A few newish pieces which many have escaped the attention of memebers of this forum, and just to add flavour to discussions thus far :-) - - - - http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/05/22/1326239&mode=thread&tid=10 What is Microsoft really up to by licensing Unix from SCO for between 10 to 30 million dollars? I think the answer's quite simple: they want to hurt Linux. Anything that damages Linux's reputation, which lending support to SCO's Unix intellectual property claims does, is to Microsoft's advantage. Mary Jo Foley, top reporter of Microsoft Watch agrees with me. She tells me, "This is just Microsoft making sure the Linux waters get muddier They are doing this to hurt Linux and keep customers off balance. Eric Raymond, president of the Open Source Initative agrees and adds "Any money they (Microsoft) give SCO helps SCO hurt Linux. I think it's that simple." Dan Kusnetzky, IDC vice president for system software research, also believes that Microsoft winning can be the only sure result from SCO's legal maneuvering. But, he also thinks that whether SCO wins, loses, or draws, Microsoft will get blamed for SCO's actions. He's right. People are already accusing Microsoft of bankrolling SCO's attacks on IBM and Linux. ... Indeed, as Perens told me the other day, in addition to all the points that has already been made about SCO's weak case, SCO made most 16-bit Unix and 32V Unix source code freely available. To be precise, on January 23, 2002, Caldera wrote , "Caldera International, Inc. hereby grants a fee free license that includes the rights use, modify and distribute this named source code, including creating derived binary products created from the source code." Although not mentioned by name, the letter seems to me to put these operating systems under the BSD license .While System III and System V code are specifically not included, it certainly makes SCO's case even murkier. SCO has since taken down its own 'Ancient Unix' source code site, but the code and the letter remain available at many mirror sites . Given all this, I think Microsoft has done all they're going to do with SCO. They've helped spread more FUD for a minimal investment. To try more could only entangle them in further legal problems. No, SCO alone is responsible for our current Unix/Linux situation and alone SCO will have to face its day in court. - - - - http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-1007672.html - SCO says IBM's decision to contribute elements of AIX, its own Unix-based operating system, to the open-source community was unlawful. "IBM is obligated not to open source AIX because it contains SCO's confidential and proprietary Unix operating system and, more importantly, the code that is essential for running mission critical applications," the complaint says. - Without stating it outright, SCO implies that portions of the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries have been incorporated into Linux. "The mathematical probability of a customer being able to re-create the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries without unauthorized access to or use of the source code of the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries is nil," SCO says. - SCO alleges that IBM's Linux development efforts "misappropriated SCO's trade secrets" that Big Blue had acquired by licensing Unix from the SCO Group, which owns the intellectual property rights to the original Unix code created at AT&T's Unix Systems Laboratories. Additional confidential collaboration occurred, SCO alleges, when the two companies worked together on a plan called Project Monterey to build a new 64-bit Unix operating system for computers with Intel processors. When the onetime partners went their separate ways, in May 2001, IBM illegally "chose to use and appropriate for its own business the proprietary information obtained from SCO," SCO charges. - SCO says IBM's decision to spend a billion dollars on Linux development was the single most important factor in transforming Linux from a hobbyist platform into one that businesses would embrace. That could not have happened "without the misappropriation of Unix code, methods or concepts to achieve such performance," SCO says. Other allegations include unfair competition, breach of contract and tortious interference with contract. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From chris@sw.oz.au Fri May 23 08:52:03 2003 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (ext.aurema.com [203.31.96.4]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N0pgoi029322 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 08:52:03 +0800 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sw.oz.au with ESMTP id h4N0oIDN025942; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:50:18 +1000 (EST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au id h4N0oHUj025939; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:50:17 +1000 (EST) From: Chris Maltby To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Chris Samuel , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030523005017.GS2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: B0 4D AD F5 B8 2A 43 26 58 41 74 BF 36 5F 41 20 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 08:53:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:50:17 +1000 > On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 19:01:24 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: >> There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on >> to add something like): >> >> One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to >> have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and >> so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source >> code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A >> project was launched to identify the contributors of those >> borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in >> the System V source. On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 09:26:24AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Are you sure of this? I did some work on syslogd (a BSD program) for > a nameless System V vendor a couple of years after the lawsuit was > settled, and there was no BSD license in the source. I added one, and > it was removed again. Well, it may only be kernel contributions that ended up being attributed. Mine was for adding inode caching and hashed lookup in edition 6 days, which was circulated by BSD and included into edition 7... There was a reference to it as recently as 1998 in UnixWare, but not a specific copyright notice. Chris From enno@doc.metva.com.au Fri May 23 10:43:08 2003 Received: from doc.metva.com.au (c16477.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.152.96]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N2geoi008863 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:43:08 +0800 Received: by doc.metva.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 08F4ED78C00; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:39 +1000 (EST) From: Enno Davids To: Leon Brooks Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 10:44:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:39 +1000 Hey guys, I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative thing I guess...) Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) Enno. (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri May 23 10:53:25 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N2r0oi010033 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:53:24 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D829D13CBC; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:59:25 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305231059.25360.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 10:54:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:59:25 +0800 On Thu, 22 May 2003 16:53, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality >>> control. >> ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to >> at least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to >> start. > That's a valid intention, but is now the time? It's not relevant to > the complaint I think it led directly to the complaint. If you read said complaint, they evidently don't believe that Linux is as good as SCO UNIX, let alone better than it. Since Linux can apparently beat SCO UNIX on every point, the argument that it's copying SCO UNIX ("chasing tail-lights") to do this is considerably weakened. Saying all of this this in a dozen words or less might be too hard. >>> Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to >>> convince your audience. And that takes too long. >> Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following >> statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how >> much time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. > It might be worth making a core statement (can I say that without > sounding like a policitian?), and maybe making some PS statements at > the end. The question of QC should be a PS. Again yes and no. If SCO didn't firmly believe that Linux's QC sucked, they wouldn't be doing this. OTOH, Sontag also stated that the offending code was not in the kernel.org sources so that QC argument may be moot. >>> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >>> significant numbers of CPUs. >> They only claim 32 peak. > I'd like to see anywhere where they run on more than 4. They're > Intel based, remember? ...and IRL 99% or more of their installs would be single-CPUs. Not many dual-Athlon cash registers around. > I started writing something about SMP support, with particular > reference to IBM, in my SCO page > (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). I didn't say anything that > isn't public knowledge (for example, Anton Blanchard's 7 second > kernel compile using 24 of 32 CPUs, based on a paper presented at > AUUG 2002). I know that Anton and the people he works with have had > absolutely no exposure to AIX code. Even if they had, the best they > could have done with it is to extract the ideas and rewrite it. > That's not illegal, as you point out. > Nevertheless, I then threw it out again because I was concerned that > people could misinterpret it. Touching on it carefully could be valuable, to make the point that SMP development did come from other than IBM. >> So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the >> Linux kernel". > Yes, but that nullifies the effect of the statement. Not really. It might annoy the odd careful reader, but the rest wouldn't even think about it. Again OTOH, Sontag's statement might require of us a different wording. >> That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need >> said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. > I heard as long ago as last September that Caldera hadn't been making > any money with Linux, which is why they changed their name back to > SCO. I think they got too greedy and priced themselves out of the market. In aviation terms, the price became too steep so they stalled. That per-seat idea wouldn't have been popular. >> Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. > The stuff they're complaining about could easily have been 2.5. IIRC, they also shipped (with source) a "technical demonstration" edition with an early 2.5 kernel on it. >>> By all accounts >>> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >>> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >>> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. >> Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being >> confusing? At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint >> that the description may not be accurate? > I'd be inclined to say pretty much what I just have. That the report > is confusing and that the original intention may have been something > completely different. There are various rights you can buy to source > code. At one point I thought this meant that Microsoft had bought > the rights to the UNIX code base from SCO, leaving SCO without those > rights. I no longer think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure that > a couple of layers of reporters have muddied the waters. Agree. >>> You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say >> Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: > I'd rather have made some positive suggestions. You did. Mission accomplished. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris@csamuel.org Fri May 23 11:15:37 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (vic42-adsl-022.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N3FAoi012524 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:15:36 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C964250; Thu, 22 May 2003 23:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 11:16:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:15:41 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:35 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. > > After reading the complaint, I'm not sure what this case is about. My undertstanding from the court document, is that IBM mis-used the source code from their UNIX license (originally from AT&T) and from Project Monterey. It seems to boil down to: the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of SCO'S UNIX source code and libraries, and unauthorized misuse of UNIX methods, concepts, and know-how from paragraph 96 of the complaint. SCO's case isn't helped by the fact that they explicitly mention that IBM's OmniPrint services (para. 91 & 92) and JFS (para 92) - both of which (IBM says) were ported to Linux from the OS/2 codebase, not the AIX codebase. Mind you, they also quote Robert LeBlanc saying "We're willing to open source any part of AIX that the Linux community considers valuable. We have open-sourced the journal filesystem, print driver for the Omniprint." which seems to contradict what IBM say about the source of JFS & OmniPrint. But seeing as SCO seem quite happy to do things like put the words of someone else into RMS's mouth on their website then I'm not certain we can trust this quote either. > But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, > is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software > here. I had the misfortune to have it as one of the over a dozen UNIX variants on a compiler development network I was jointly managing in 1994. It was almost (but not quite) the worst out of all of them. It was the only one that didn't implement symbolic links for a start. :-( As an aside the worst was a Parsys transputer system running a Unix OS called, IIRC, Idris - the shutdown, halt and reboot commands didn't work so our MO for shutting it down was to do a shell script that continually called /bin/sync and flip the power off. We didn't turn it on very often at all. > > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went > > System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD > > kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V > > So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given > that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for > SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. This was told to me by either someone from Sun or a Sun reseller back around 94 or 95 as justification for why Sun went System 5 for Solaris. It wasn't popular where I was and so I'd been asked to find out why they'd done it. Here's an interesting (though not MP related) tidbit from version 1.74 of the Solaris 2.x FAQ by Casper Dik : SVR4.0, in turn, was developed jointly by AT&T and Sun while Sun was developing 4.1.0, which is why things like RFS, STREAMS, shared memory, etc., are in SunOS 4.1.x, and why things like vnodes, NFS and XView are in SVR4.0. (RFS, by the way, was dropped effective Solaris 2.3). > > (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). > > It took Sun approximately until SunOS 2.5 to get reasonable SMP > support. IMHO it took them to 2.5 before it was a reasonable OS. :-) > They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, > the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, > also known as UnixWare). OK - now I'm confused! I thought that the MP version was SVR4.2 MP ? [...] > One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their > product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. > It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes > still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of > course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's > still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, > had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users > out there even today. I'm afraid I was too badly traumatised by my experience with SCO in 94,95 to ever consider it anything like a reasonable OS. Even the HP-SUX 7 boxes we had weren't that bad. [...] > >> Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years > >> ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. > > > > FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. > > Of course they did. I was there in the middle of it. Mea culpa! According to McKusick the initial injunction against UCB and BSDI was heard in December 1992, and UCB counter-sued the week after (presumably still December 1992). The first NetBSD release was about 4 months after, whilst the case was still going. Sorry about my mistake. > The NetBSD project was founded on 21 March 1983. The FreeBSD project was > founded on 19 June 1983 (and we're having a party at my place round then; > watch this space). I presume the 83 is a typo for 93. :-) > The initial complaint was filed on 20 April 1992, > before 386/BSD had spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD, but it carried on until > early 1994. OK - understood. Thanks for that. [...] > Thanks for the info. Not a problem, thanks for the corrections! cheers, Chris, proud owner of a "Free the Berkeley 4.4" t-shirt (Novell version, didn't get in early enough for a Death Star one) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPs2SXY1yjaOTJg85AQE6Iwf7B7OWkn39HdeX3Idvxe9uRmp6YMF46K+H TfZ3s5G5uEIRRnp7bGUfPURojv/5pdzKmtvS+kcammrLEfNDSL++QlzcgsAu1i8b axs8aLHnKk/pqlP1Qk2LpanW7c9Jlp6YaGNsVGwfhfdvCbTUpfWlTWFAdiR0ph93 qQZyfUeutOhuaZrFS3839PfLiivTFrOiQ+kwSabiQyjdmrnpvXrPCGp23KE50wz5 CDp2DGyJun6YCBjlokIzuUmmV02hBowhxn8hWCwDzqa2+xMjly6hqKGgL/PgWz7C Btcj00iG4+TWvSMGh5iACatDbBZzLhG2L2Dp7/Nh8euY7mvRcde/4Q== =wBu4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris@csamuel.org Fri May 23 11:18:43 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (vic42-adsl-022.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N3IHoi012894 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:18:43 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DC34250; Thu, 22 May 2003 23:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305231318.49497.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 11:19:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:18:48 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:53 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I started writing something about SMP support, with particular > reference to IBM, in my SCO page (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). Personally I would point out that the people who bought the first dual CPU system for Alan Cox to develop SMP on were Caldera, now SCO. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPs2TGI1yjaOTJg85AQFDuAf/dvGA/DNcJowXuDOzvXy4M8u56Jwtk1rE AOdMmAV9WdGDQ5+MIYOxw5tIAs4u2y1RxpI/kkf6JpUbZvVT6JLhs6ap9z4C1kIx JwFQf0goByeKNWUWYJ8I/mll+Lw20IBlDgoKXB+IO6CijPIfcrsZ55eOC/2Qnbey LbvRt4D1F0HIK41HEFjUALh2CPLnMTe1zEh5jscnOKr1Jvrr/zTdvHvDkICsrymW Ac6MVVqqEAuvI1BUwHTOLbzRK1pvfyihqW5RUJV/maTOVGc2CtgPowuFXqiJqWvl CoZnHSVo+qKvlMMNA9GS2ekgqAl6l41riZXrXabJsAMQJvVhBQae3Q== =fRJM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grog@lemis.com Fri May 23 11:32:31 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N3W0oi014510 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:32:29 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F0770527A7; Fri, 23 May 2003 13:01:56 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Samuel Cc: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030523033156.GJ80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BEa57a89OpeoUzGD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 11:33:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:01:56 +0930 --BEa57a89OpeoUzGD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 23 May 2003 at 13:15:41 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:35 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > My undertstanding from the court document, is that IBM mis-used the source > code from their UNIX license (originally from AT&T) and from Project > Monterey. It seems to boil down to: > > the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of SCO'S UNIX > source code and libraries, and unauthorized misuse of UNIX methods, > concepts, and know-how > > from paragraph 96 of the complaint. > > SCO's case isn't helped by the fact that they explicitly mention that IBM's > OmniPrint services (para. 91 & 92) and JFS (para 92) - both of which (IBM > says) were ported to Linux from the OS/2 codebase, not the AIX > codebase. Indeed. > Mind you, they also quote Robert LeBlanc saying "We're willing to > open source any part of AIX that the Linux community considers > valuable. We have open-sourced the journal filesystem, print driver > for the Omniprint." which seems to contradict what IBM say about the > source of JFS & OmniPrint. Yes. IBM's right, of course. The JFS that IBM released was internally known as JFS 2; it's a greatly improved version of the AIX JFS ("JFS 1"). While at IBM, I wrote a JFS 1 file system for Linux. It's clear from what little I saw of it that JFS 1 was derived from FFS (BSD). Despite the fact that it wasn't original UNIX source code, and despite the fact that I was an IBM employee, I was not allowed to see the AIX code. If I had been allowed, I wouldn't have dreamed of copying it: I just wanted to understand how it worked. For example, a JFS 1 inode only has space for on indirect block pointer. It turns out that if the file is 16 MB in size or less, it points to a single indirect block; if the size is greater, it points to the double indirect block. That would have been so much easier to understand if I had been allowed to see the source. >> But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, >> is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software >> here. > > I had the misfortune to have it as one of the over a dozen UNIX variants on a > compiler development network I was jointly managing in 1994. It was almost > (but not quite) the worst out of all of them. It was the only one that didn't > implement symbolic links for a start. :-( That was more common earlier on. Symbolic links were one of the things that System V.4 imported from BSD with UFS. >> They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, >> the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, >> also known as UnixWare). > > OK - now I'm confused! I thought that the MP version was SVR4.2 MP ? Why should you be left out? :-) But you could be right. I've heard people claim that SVR4.2 was the multiprocessor version of SVR4, and others say that it was the desktop version. It's possible that neither of them knew the complete functionality. >> One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their >> product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. >> It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes >> still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of >> course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's >> still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, >> had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users >> out there even today. > > I'm afraid I was too badly traumatised by my experience with SCO in 94,95 to > ever consider it anything like a reasonable OS. Even the HP-SUX 7 boxes we > had weren't that bad. By then the stuff was *completely* out of date. I used SVR[23] in the late 80s and early 90s, and by comparison XENIX had some nice features. It was still a pig to install. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --BEa57a89OpeoUzGD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+zZYsIubykFB6QiMRAvcgAJ9UA0xhvVY9JaqlAmxy8qTzsUIK7gCcCI21 4TCv6S0OIkC6lRWlF+4T3EA= =luDk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BEa57a89OpeoUzGD-- From lui@fgcint.com Fri May 23 12:38:13 2003 Received: from fgcint.com (adsl172-14.powerdsl.com.au [202.71.172.14]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N4bkoi021893 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:38:12 +0800 Received: from [192.168.160.101] (luiginb.fgcint.com [192.168.160.101]) by fgcint.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4N4fHEd004680; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:41:17 +0800 From: Luigi Cantoni To: Enno Davids Cc: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 12:39:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 23 May 2003 12:37:46 +0800 This certainly has been a great history lession. I agree with Enno just a general statement of support and that people (organisations) should have nothing to fear. Maybe something like because it is open and all code can be seen then anyone can easily point to the exact piece and say it is mine. Until that is done and proven there is no problem. I assume that no one has actually said these 100's of lines of code right here are the ones copied from what xxx had. Luigi Cantoni On Fri, 2003-05-23 at 10:42, Enno Davids wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns > about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, > it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and > say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details > or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) > > Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever > worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources > whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its > extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer > community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative > thing I guess...) > > Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue > statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that > it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a > generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual > property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) > > > Enno. > > > (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things > that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their > large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits > disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this > case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot > of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk mailing list > Talk@auug.org.au > http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Luigi Cantoni From adam@saki.com.au Fri May 23 12:50:22 2003 Received: from aida.saki.com.au (IDENT:root@aida.saki.com.au [203.5.24.66]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N4nvoi023325 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:50:22 +0800 Received: from saki.com.au (phoenix.saki.com.au [203.5.24.12]) by aida.saki.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h4N4n6W20882; Fri, 23 May 2003 14:49:37 +1000 Message-ID: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> From: Adam Donnison Organization: Saki Computer Services User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Enno Davids CC: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 12:51:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:49:05 +1000 I too have been watching from afar (as it were). I'm wondering who the audience of any statement would be? If it were to go to the general public then it might be worth condensing the comments from Eric Raymonds paper which essentially would boil down to a press release something like: SCO resorts to dirty tricks to lessen Linux SCO, in what they are hoping will be characterised as a David and Goliath contest, have started procedings against software giant IBM in an attempt to gain lost ground to the now well entrenched Linux operating system. In what can only be characterised as a farago of mistruths, misdirections and outright fabrications, SCO is attempting to claim that IBM, by its multi-billion dollar investment in the free operating system Linux has infringed SCO's IP rights. (short description of what Linux is, what the stakes are, what the actual claim is). The idea is to try and point out that SCO has alterior motives, and is not the lilly-white injured party it tries to portray. It has to be done in short sentences, and without too much detail, in order to get it into the space requirements of most publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than 400 lines, forget it. Just my 2c worth. Adam Enno Davids wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns > about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, > it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and > say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details > or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) > > Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever > worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources > whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its > extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer > community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative > thing I guess...) > > Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue > statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that > it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a > generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual > property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) > > > Enno. > > > (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things > that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their > large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits > disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this > case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot > of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk mailing list > Talk@auug.org.au > http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Adam Donnison email: adam@saki.com.au Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd. 93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512 THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098 From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Fri May 23 12:57:20 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4N4uwoi024182 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:57:20 +0800 Received: from orthanc.middlearth.net.au (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Fri, 23 May 2003 14:26:35 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Adam Donnison Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-Id: <20030523142701.39d9443b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 12:58:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:27:01 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Adam, > publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means > go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than > 400 lines, forget it. For those who get excited writing thesis, though, there's no harm in having a umpteen-thousand word white paper to refer the interested to... DSL - -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+zaodNBhAwwyvg/kRAtGpAKCIFa4ekYiATQNCmOG8tY5LBC/ldACdGb5S I8+HL4d+dMAoM8yA6IgWhuc= =Ocn7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris@sw.oz.au Fri May 23 13:00:54 2003 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (ext.aurema.com [203.31.96.4]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N50Roi024624 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 13:00:53 +0800 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sw.oz.au with ESMTP id h4N509DN007167; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:00:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au id h4N508xo007155; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:00:08 +1000 (EST) From: Chris Maltby To: Adam Donnison Cc: Enno Davids , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Face: #TW5+x&J{Nv(AI7zAMwW{hmXU(7No!i=K69&,iZ!EsO^e: yd>35r$e(HCY$<{a3Zp'4cYWLr;043P8'Of/c4%NmF2IIE'0h`?95'Sbhtx s+Gi$Z%=gu_`g:WQueShb(9*=l)ihL2le~OT>.|C{rQx, List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 13:01:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:00:08 +1000 On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 02:49:05PM +1000, Adam Donnison wrote: > I too have been watching from afar (as it were). I'm wondering who > the audience of any statement would be? If it were to go to the > general public then it might be worth condensing the comments from > Eric Raymonds paper which essentially would boil down to a press > release something like: > > SCO resorts to dirty tricks to lessen Linux > > SCO, in what they are hoping will be characterised as a David and > Goliath contest, have started procedings against software giant > IBM in an attempt to gain lost ground to the now well entrenched > Linux operating system. > > In what can only be characterised as a farago of mistruths, > misdirections and outright fabrications, SCO is attempting to > claim that IBM, by its multi-billion dollar investment > in the free operating system Linux has infringed SCO's IP rights. > > (short description of what Linux is, what the stakes are, what > the actual claim is). I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > The idea is to try and point out that SCO has ulterior motives, > and is not the lilly-white injured party it tries to portray. > It has to be done in short sentences, and without too much > detail, in order to get it into the space requirements of most > publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means > go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than > 400 lines, forget it. And attribute it to someone with a title. > Just my 2c worth. Chris From andrae.muys@braintree.com.au Fri May 23 13:05:48 2003 Received: from bt01ibri.braintree.com.au ([203.27.201.1]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N55Loi025249 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 13:05:47 +0800 Received: from braintree.com.au ([192.168.0.34]) by bt01ibri.braintree.com.au (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4N54fgT008092; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:04:42 +1000 Message-ID: <3ECDABDC.806@braintree.com.au> From: Andrae Muys User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au CC: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> In-Reply-To: <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 13:06:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:04:28 +1000 Luigi Cantoni wrote: > This certainly has been a great history lession. > > I agree with Enno just a general statement of support and that people > (organisations) should have nothing to fear. > > Maybe something like because it is open and all code can be seen then > anyone can easily point to the exact piece and say it is mine. Until > that is done and proven there is no problem. > > I assume that no one has actually said these 100's of lines of code > right here are the ones copied from what xxx had. > I was thinking about this issue this morning, and it occurred to me that there is probably very little to be gained by "expressing support" for linux. After all, this will hardly surprise anyone. OTOH a press release accusing SCO of anti-competitive behaviour in refusing to substantiate their accusations of wrong doing during the development of the Linux Kernel; Calling on SCO to release specific allegations of wrong doing, or abstain from vague threats and rumour mongering. One constructive thing we could do would be to attack SCO's allegation that the Linux Kernel Developers could somehow "Launder" their code to avoid the legal challange. That not only is such an accusation of dishonesty offensive, but physically impossible due to the millions of copies of the source code distributed in line with Linux's Open Source principles. Andrae P.S. Yeah I always prefer counter-attack to defense... how could you tell? ;) -- Andrae Muys But can it generate *quantum* Haiku error messages, in Latin, where each Engineer line of the error message is a Braintree Communications palindrome? -- Mike Vanier on perl From adam@saki.com.au Fri May 23 13:21:22 2003 Received: from aida.saki.com.au (IDENT:root@aida.saki.com.au [203.5.24.66]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N5Kxoi027029 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 13:21:22 +0800 Received: from saki.com.au (phoenix.saki.com.au [203.5.24.12]) by aida.saki.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h4N5KdW21363; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:20:39 +1000 Message-ID: <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> From: Adam Donnison Organization: Saki Computer Services User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Maltby CC: Enno Davids , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 13:22:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:20:38 +1000 Chris Maltby wrote: > > I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: > > According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby > group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > Thats as long as Greg is happy to say those things :-) Adam -- Adam Donnison email: adam@saki.com.au Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd. 93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512 THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098 From Murray.Jensen@csiro.au Fri May 23 13:26:53 2003 Received: from bastion2.vic.csiro.au (bastion2.vic.CSIRO.AU [138.194.2.9]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N5QMoi027645 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 13:26:53 +0800 Received: from bastion2.vic.csiro.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bastion2.vic.csiro.au (8.12.9/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h4N5NMvv017277 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:23:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from othello.preston.cmst.csiro.au (othello.preston.cmit.csiro.au [138.194.112.43]) by bastion2.vic.csiro.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h4N5NMZ3017272 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:23:22 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 16471 invoked by alias); 23 May 2003 05:26:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 16454 invoked by uid 62004); 23 May 2003 05:26:17 -0000 Received: from Murray.Jensen@csiro.au by othello with scan4virus-0.52 (uvscan: v4.0.70/v4266. . Clean. Processed in 0.628177 secs); 23/05/2003 15:26:17 Received: from ull.preston.cmit.csiro.au (?lGlTnwC2+fi9c39IDJ1By9JK8+sswtMi?@138.194.112.9) by othello.preston.cmit.csiro.au with SMTP; 23 May 2003 05:26:16 -0000 Received: from ull (jen117@localhost) by ull.preston.cmit.csiro.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h4N5QGZu013367; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:26:16 +1000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <13366.1053667576@ull> From: Murray Jensen Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 13:27:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:26:16 +1000 On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:39 +1000, Enno Davids writes: >it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and >say that the allegations are untrue. Have a read of this: http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html - the title is "OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint" (where OSI stands for Open Source Initiative). The authors are Eric Raymond and Rob Landley. Interesting reading and might be a good reference for people wanting some in-depth analysis of the complaint. Cheers! Murray... -- Murray Jensen, CSIRO Manufacturing & Infra. Tech. Phone: +61 3 9662 7763 Locked Bag No. 9, Preston, Vic, 3072, Australia. Fax: +61 3 9662 7853 Internet: Murray.Jensen@csiro.au Hymod project: http://www.msa.cmst.csiro.au/projects/Hymod/ To the extent permitted by law, CSIRO does not represent, warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained or that the communication is free of errors, virus, interception or interference. The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential or privileged. Any unauthorised use or disclosure is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please delete it immediately and notify Murray Jensen on +61 3 9662 7763. Thank you. From stewartsmith@mac.com Fri May 23 15:40:34 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N7e6oi009810 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:40:33 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4N7e4Ud014276 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 00:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4N7dZB6023514 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 00:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Stewart Smith To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 15:41:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:40:28 +1000 I've just completed the (not so trivial) task of mailing all of the linux user groups as listed on www.linux.org.au/usergroups/. Hopefully they will all get back to me with their up to date information so I can put together the new (and more accurate) user group listing site. If you know of any group whose information is either missing or incorrect on the current site, please get them to contact me and I'll make sure the new and correct details are on the new one. rock on, ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart@linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From grog@lemis.com Fri May 23 17:02:47 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N92Boi018787 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 17:02:46 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1F207527A6; Fri, 23 May 2003 18:32:06 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Adam Donnison Cc: Chris Maltby , Enno Davids , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030523090206.GS80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MT9SxUWSsctiw0kG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 17:03:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:32:06 +0930 --MT9SxUWSsctiw0kG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 23 May 2003 at 15:20:38 +1000, Adam Donnison wrote: > Chris Maltby wrote: >> >> I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: >> >> According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby >> group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > > Thats as long as Greg is happy to say those things :-) Give me a chance to find a dictionary. Seriously, we're discussing it. We're all a bit upset about what's going on, but as an organization representing all UNIX users, it's not clear what we should do. We can certainly point out factual errors, but since we haven't seen many facts, that's not going to be worth much. I'll know more after the board meeting tomorrow. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --MT9SxUWSsctiw0kG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+zeOOIubykFB6QiMRAmxsAKCK5pfaiD9RdD6jPOLbH65/gREYRQCfUK8P GhWpdkFGXRHT71F28cic25Q= =3aJB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --MT9SxUWSsctiw0kG-- From steve@DigitalSmarties.com Fri May 23 17:15:50 2003 Received: from digitalsmarties.com (qmailr@gw.digital-smarties.com [203.59.125.206]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4N9FIoi020209 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 17:15:50 +0800 Received: (qmail 3046 invoked from network); 23 May 2003 09:15:11 -0000 Received: from gateway.digitalsmarties.com (HELO DigitalSmarties.com) (192.168.1.1) by gateway.digitalsmarties.com (192.168.1.1) with ESMTP; 23 May 2003 09:15:11 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Adam Donnison , Chris Maltby , Enno Davids , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Steve Landers In-Reply-To: <20030523090206.GS80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-Id: <0BE3BD68-8CFF-11D7-98B3-00039305E9C6@DigitalSmarties.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 17:16:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:15:07 +0800 Folks, On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 05:02 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Seriously, we're discussing it. We're all a bit upset about what's > going on, but as an organization representing all UNIX users, it's not > clear what we should do. We can certainly point out factual errors, > but since we haven't seen many facts, that's not going to be worth > much. I'll know more after the board meeting tomorrow. There is also the danger of appearing reactionary. If the objective is to give help keep people comfortable, and remove the FUD factor then there's plenty of material in ESRs position paper on the OSI site (http://www.opensource.org). Personally, I'd point to that rather than argue the case ourselves. One strategy is to quote people like ESR thus "well respected Open Source advocates like Eric Raymond have pointed out numerous factual errors and inconsistencies ... blah blah blah". Then, in the unlikely event that SCO has a case and it is proven, AUUG will at least have some credibility left ;-) Cheers Steve -- Steve Landers Software Design Solutions Digital Smarties steve@DigitalSmarties.com Perth, Western Australia DigitalSmarties.com From stewartsmith@mac.com Fri May 23 17:56:36 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4N9u9oi024551 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 17:56:35 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4N9u70x024105 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 02:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4N9tMqF027312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 23 May 2003 02:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: Kimberly Shelt From: Stewart Smith In-Reply-To: <20030523081725.GB4343@linmagau.org> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 17:57:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:56:21 +1000 On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > I would be very happy if you would copy me a list of al the actual ones > like "live" you get to respond.. for when we start tothink about > distribution.. that way may save Kim lots of work :) I plan to have a pretty simple data file, or SQL table so i can probably grab out the list of emails pretty easily, and there shouldn't be a problem handing this over to you (esp considering you could just grab it of the website anyway). > Thanks > Kim np - glad can help :) ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith@mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From jdub@perkypants.org Fri May 23 20:40:23 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-08.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.40]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4NCdtoi009451 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 20:40:23 +0800 Received: (qmail 8315 invoked from network); 23 May 2003 10:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 23 May 2003 10:19:46 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418488C1E1 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 20:19:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04554-10 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 20:19:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD9F8C1DB for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 20:19:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C9C5E12B6B0; Fri, 23 May 2003 20:19:50 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030523101950.GI1990@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030523081725.GB4343@linmagau.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Mon May 26 20:18:27 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 20:18:27 up 7:46, 2 users, load average: 0.27, 0.22, 0.08 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 23 20:41:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:19:50 +1000 > On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > > >I would be very happy if you would copy me a list of al the actual ones > >like "live" you get to respond.. for when we start tothink about > >distribution.. that way may save Kim lots of work :) > > I plan to have a pretty simple data file, or SQL table so i can probably > grab out the list of emails pretty easily, and there shouldn't be a > problem handing this over to you (esp considering you could just grab it > of the website anyway). It might be interesting to note which organisations replied quickly, provided more information, etc., so that the search for ready and willing contributors / volunteers for LA (or even linmagau) stuff can be... "prioritised". ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ I don't know whose brain child it was, but it was quite an ugly child. From andrewr@iagu.net Sat May 24 07:11:41 2003 Received: from iagu.net (root@iag138580-1.gw.connect.com.au [203.63.126.77]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4NNBCoi011266 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 07:11:41 +0800 Received: from [203.32.153.93] (andrewr@localhost.iagu.net [127.0.0.1]) by iagu.net (8.12.3/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h4NNB3N3027246; Sat, 24 May 2003 08:41:03 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from andrewr@iagu.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: andrewr@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Chris Samuel From: Andrew Rutherford Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Cc: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 24 07:12:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:40:57 +0930 At 6:05 PM +0930 22/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went >> System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD >> kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V > >So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given >that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for >SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. At the time (I still have some old Sun press releases for amusements sake, plus some email conversations with Sun employees at the time), Sun were trying to get more of a focus and business and less in education/engineering, and believed that SysV had a much greater following in the business world (were they thinking about SCO? That would be a great irony!), and having a system based on code generally thought to be made by "tinkerers" rather than "software professionals" would be a hindrance in their push into the high-end business market. > >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > >>> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. Given the aforementioned tiff between Microsoft and SCO, with SCO removing their Xenix code which was there to support Microsoft, is it any wonder that Microsoft dropped support? Even if just to prove a point - "they removed support for our code, so we're not coding for their platform any more." -- Andrew Rutherford sip:andrewr@iagu.net 244 Pirie Street Iagu Networks tel:+61-8-8425-2255 Adelaide SA 5000 http://www.iagu.net/ mailto:andrewr@iagu.net Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Sat May 24 18:23:54 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4OANToi017707 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 18:23:54 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD5313CBC; Sat, 24 May 2003 18:30:48 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305241830.48016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: SCO position, rationale and AUUG - dropping SCO OS support Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat May 24 18:24:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:30:48 +0800 On Sat, 24 May 2003 07:10, Andrew Rutherford wrote: > Original Leon wrote: >...> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of >...> their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on >...> Linux. > Given the aforementioned tiff between Microsoft and SCO, with SCO > removing their Xenix code which was there to support Microsoft, is it > any wonder that Microsoft dropped support? Even if just to prove a > point - "they removed support for our code, so we're not coding for > their platform any more." We're not talking about a decade ago (although at the time Xenix was the next Great White Hope for Microsoft and every MS employee's desktop had a Xenix terminal), we're talking current products. For example, FrontPage 2000 extensions list OpenServer and OpenUnix (and AIX) as no longer supported; FrontPage 2002 doesn't mention them. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From mail@alexlog.nl Sun May 25 00:00:10 2003 Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4OFxioi020683 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 00:00:10 +0800 Received: from mainact (ip503d6905.speed.planet.nl [80.61.105.5]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HFE00179F104A@smtp03.wxs.nl> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Sat, 24 May 2003 17:58:19 +0200 (MEST) From: Alex Geus X-Sender: 72F2BFF2-C2C3-4A4B-AFB8-A26D5007249 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Reply-to: mail@alexloxg.nl Message-id: <0HFE00194F164A@smtp03.wxs.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9JUYtO2r7BfNF8VaYQz9zA)" X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer-Version: 2.20 Subject: [Linux-aus] A dutch Perception Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 25 00:01:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:58:52 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format --Boundary_(ID_9JUYtO2r7BfNF8VaYQz9zA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work. Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low. By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you. Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-). With Regards, Alexander Geus mail@alexlog.nl Netherlands) --Boundary_(ID_9JUYtO2r7BfNF8VaYQz9zA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A dutch Perception Hi,

During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work.
Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low.
By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you.
Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-).

With Regards, Alexander Geus mail@alexlog.nl Netherlands)

--Boundary_(ID_9JUYtO2r7BfNF8VaYQz9zA)-- From mail@alexlog.nl Sun May 25 01:22:15 2003 Received: from smtp06.wxs.nl (smtp06.wxs.nl [195.121.6.58]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4OHLloi029628 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 01:22:15 +0800 Received: from mainact (ip503d6905.speed.planet.nl [80.61.105.5]) by smtp06.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HFE00G9RIO4PZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Sat, 24 May 2003 19:20:20 +0200 (MEST) From: Alex Geus X-Sender: 98BC5482-3F65-43E8-B5C3-A84DA007249 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Reply-to: mail@alexloxg.nl Message-id: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qj93/GBbDFGiqMeri70uxw)" X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer-Version: 2.20 Subject: [Linux-aus] A Dutch Perception with suitable URL Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 25 01:23:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 19:21:42 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format --Boundary_(ID_qj93/GBbDFGiqMeri70uxw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, the previous mail contains a wrong URL.Correction is done in this mail. Sorry for the inconvenience. During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work. Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low. By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you. Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-) With Regards, Alexander Geus mail@alexlog.nl Netherlands Europe. --Boundary_(ID_qj93/GBbDFGiqMeri70uxw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A Dutch Perception with suitable URL

Hi,

the previous mail contains a wrong URL.Correction is done in this mail.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work.
Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low.
By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you.
Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-)

With Regards, Alexander Geus mail@alexlog.nl Netherlands Europe.

--Boundary_(ID_qj93/GBbDFGiqMeri70uxw)-- From lloy0076@adam.com.au Sun May 25 08:25:05 2003 Received: from postit.adam.com.au (postit.adam.com.au [203.2.124.173]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4P0Ohoi009791 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 08:25:04 +0800 Received: from lightning.adam.com.au (lightning.adam.com.au [203.2.124.20]) by postit.adam.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h4P0PPqM017453 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 09:55:26 +0930 (CST) Received: (qmail 66573 invoked from network); 25 May 2003 00:24:38 -0000 Received: from 202-6-159-192.ip.adam.com.au (HELO mordor.middlearth.net.au) (202.6.159.192) by eden.adam.com.au with SMTP; 25 May 2003 00:24:38 -0000 From: David Lloyd To: mail@alexloxg.nl Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] A Dutch Perception with suitable URL Message-Id: <20030525100043.1d8e3ec9.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> References: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 25 08:26:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:00:43 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alex, > With Regards, Alexander Geus mail@alexlog.nl > Netherlands Europe. Your site looks interesting however under Mozilla 1.3.1 it renders really badly. Specifically the text at the bottom (April 17th down) doesn't place itself correctly. I'm not sure why though :-) HTH - -- Sing a new song, chiquitita! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+0A6zmk7m2JX6ki4RAhe2AJ9RyvplSH0BGVUk01ZhYf8r5PeZdwCgjzf+ SQCM/wBPlFt/20YD/DQ3yqc= =Ak+J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grog@lemis.com Sun May 25 09:17:49 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4P1HNoi015291 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 09:17:48 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E0B3451A7C; Sun, 25 May 2003 10:47:19 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Andrew Rutherford Cc: Chris Samuel , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <20030525011719.GX80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="McQJJYUzjTUqtsGv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun May 25 09:18:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:47:19 +0930 --McQJJYUzjTUqtsGv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, 24 May 2003 at 8:40:57 +0930, Andrew Rutherford wrote: > At 6:05 PM +0930 22/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went >>> System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD >>> kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V >> >> So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given >> that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for >> SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. > > At the time (I still have some old Sun press releases for amusements > sake, plus some email conversations with Sun employees at the time), > Sun were trying to get more of a focus and business and less in > education/engineering, and believed that SysV had a much greater > following in the business world Yes, that was my recollection from things we heard at Tandem. We were just getting on the System V bandwagon ourselves, and we looked at Sun with great suspicion. > (were they thinking about SCO? That would be a great irony!), No, I don't think so. My recollection at the time was that Intel-based UNIX was looked on as something of a toy. When we *did* start using UNIX on Intel, it was In(ter)active UNIX, not SCO, which we looked upon as a strange hybrid with Microsoft. > and having a system based on code generally thought to be made by > "tinkerers" rather than "software professionals" would be a > hindrance in their push into the high-end business market. Yes, I think this is quite valid. At the time we also used some of the "Berkeley extensions" like TCP/IP. Others include FFS in the list of extensions, though we didn't implement it. The impression I got at the time was that BSD UNIX was pretty crappy, though it contained some good ideas. It wasn't until I actually got my hands on it (BSD/386, in March 1992) that I was surprised to find how much better it worked than Interactive UNIX/386. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --McQJJYUzjTUqtsGv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+0BmfIubykFB6QiMRAs1EAJ0UM8MS9VQIKQbWPLu8uTq2j73myQCfSi9W NdZ6YXb5dKds7xFhto7vz9g= =gTwH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --McQJJYUzjTUqtsGv-- From greebo@pacific.net.au Mon May 26 06:55:09 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4PMsloi022208 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 06:55:09 +0800 Received: (qmail 12849 invoked from network); 25 May 2003 22:53:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 25 May 2003 22:53:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764858C1DB; Mon, 26 May 2003 08:53:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00635-03; Mon, 26 May 2003 08:53:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFAD8C1B2; Mon, 26 May 2003 08:53:32 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG From: Pia Smith To: Jonathan Oxer Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1053903177.2358.89.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 06:56:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 26 May 2003 08:52:58 +1000 On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 15:11, Jonathan Oxer wrote: > The IT dude should be able to point to the document, which the PHB then > reads, breathes a sigh of relief that the allegations are a load of > hogwash and he's not in any danger, and goes on about his business. I'd suggest that bug companies don't trust their IT dudes that much, especially when it is legal stuff between big companies. Its not so much a problem of can we prove this, its a matter of companies feeling there isn't a problem. Pia From greebo@pacific.net.au Mon May 26 07:09:03 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-05.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.37]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4PN8coi023743 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 07:09:03 +0800 Received: (qmail 31898 invoked from network); 25 May 2003 22:54:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.68.167) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 25 May 2003 22:54:49 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E878C1DB; Mon, 26 May 2003 08:54:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13162-04; Mon, 26 May 2003 08:54:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231178C1B2; Mon, 26 May 2003 08:54:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG From: Pia Smith To: Con Zymaris Cc: Chris Samuel , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p1 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 07:10:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 26 May 2003 08:54:17 +1000 It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, or at least be damned familiar with what they say. Is it more effective to shoot 1000 bullets or to combine our efforts into a bomb? I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem that we are avoiding the claims made. Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better than fiddly details about code or Microsoft claims (neither of which a business or person outside the community either wants to hear or will understand). My 2c Pia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Mon May 26 09:19:19 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-241.arach.net.au [202.89.168.241]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4Q1Iuoi005446 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 09:19:18 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963F713CBC; Mon, 26 May 2003 09:27:17 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> In-Reply-To: <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 09:21:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:27:17 +0800 On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: > It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the > opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, Yes, but not just duplicating what they say or there is no point. > Is it more effective to shoot 1000 bullets or to combine our > efforts into a bomb? That depends on the situation. One bomb in thick jungle is next to useless because the foliage absorbs the shock. Chasing the analogy further, nuclear bombs do not scale linearly because the bigger the bomb is, the more of its energy is wasted fighting itself - you get a hotter, denser core to the explosion but not much more damage. Binding the analogy back to real life again, I think we need to make some combined statements which support rather than replicate the existing efforts. Analogous to ringing the original detonation with a salvo of small bombs. > I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, > but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no > proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem > that we are avoiding the claims made. Good idea. But would it defuse (or diffuse) our efforts at all if I carefully crafted a me-only corporate statement which looks askance at Microsoft's response and released it either before or after a group response? As I hear it the fee they paid to SCO was of the order of 10-20 million dollars, chicken feed to Microsoft but apparently not far short of the paper value of SCO. The obvious message behind that is that they like what SCO's doing and are keeping the company alive as long as they are a nuisance to Linux and to IBM. I'd like to make my own separate statement along the lines of "it's next to impossible to be sure, but it looks to our corporate cynical eyes as if..." because me losing global karma points isn't going to be the problem it would be for LA/AUUG/SLPWA/etc. I do want to make points which our groups want to keep clean hands on, but don't want it to detract from any group statement. > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents all) would be a good foundation for a release. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From bowden@iinet.net.au Mon May 26 10:30:05 2003 Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4Q2Tdoi013074 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 10:30:05 +0800 Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B3960092 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 10:29:37 +0800 (WST) Received: from hermes.rmsurveys.com.au (adsl-202-72-181-60.cls.westnet.com.au [202.72.181.60]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BC460427 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 10:29:36 +0800 (WST) Received: from iinet.net.au (pan.rmsurveys.com.au [192.168.1.3]) by hermes.rmsurveys.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4Q33dNi018241 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 11:04:01 +0800 Message-ID: <3ED17CCD.7040807@iinet.net.au> From: Tim Bowden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Australia List Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 10:31:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:32:45 +0800 Leon Brooks wrote: >On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: > > >>It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the >>opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, >> >> > >Yes, but not just duplicating what they say or there is no point. > > > If you want to know about getting a message out, particularly to an audience who is not tuned in to you, just ask a politician how it is done. They are masters at it. Don't forget the old political adage 'tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them what you have told them'. I remember a radio interview with an old hand at labor campaigning and he made the comment that by the time you have told your message so many times you are sick of saying it, and you imagine the public are groaning in protest at having to hear it again, then they are only just beginning to get the message. Repeating the message ad nauseam is worthwhile. That's why politicians do it and why advertisers do it. It is human nature for most people to accept with less than rigorous analysis something they have heard many times, even if it is demonstrably wrong with just a little thought. If you want your message accepted, keep telling it. Your audience is not tuned in to you until you bombard their senses. Sad but true. Just my 2c Tim Bowden From grog@lemis.com Mon May 26 16:08:36 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4Q888oi017428 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 16:08:35 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 90F3D527A8; Mon, 26 May 2003 17:38:02 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Leon Brooks Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread Message-ID: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WdPYQQQ4lIWZ4ZWi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 16:09:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:38:02 +0930 --WdPYQQQ4lIWZ4ZWi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Monday, 26 May 2003 at 9:27:17 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: >> I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, >> but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no >> proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem >> that we are avoiding the claims made. > > Good idea. But would it defuse (or diffuse) our efforts at all if I > carefully crafted a me-only corporate statement which looks askance > at Microsoft's response and released it either before or after a > group response? I don't know. I think we should coordinate our efforts, anyway. > I'd like to make my own separate statement along the lines of "it's > next to impossible to be sure, but it looks to our corporate cynical > eyes as if..." because me losing global karma points isn't going to > be the problem it would be for LA/AUUG/SLPWA/etc. I do want to make > points which our groups want to keep clean hands on, but don't want > it to detract from any group statement. This is a very different aspect from what we've been talking about. I'm not saying "don't do it", but it makes it clearer how we should proceed. Each of us has a different perspective of the problem. >> Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, >> and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > all) would be a good foundation for a release. At the AUUG board meeting on Saturday, we discussed the matter and came to the conclusion that AUUG and Linux Australia should make a press statement about the matter. We discussed whether this should be a joint statement or separate statements and came to the conclusion that we probably wouldn't be able to agree on the wording of a joint statement quickly enough, so we'd probably have to issue separate statements. I expressed the opinion that I would like the statements to be as similar as possible, but the others are probably correct when they say that this would be very difficult. I intend to put our statement past the LA board before publishing, however, and I hope they do the same. Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --WdPYQQQ4lIWZ4ZWi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+0ctiIubykFB6QiMRAk14AKCqX3fzOMaLILvJhC7ea70gp4HjGwCbBQQa SOp28jmTOOZsma8pIffdXEU= =8Np1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WdPYQQQ4lIWZ4ZWi-- From andrewr@iagu.net Mon May 26 16:34:41 2003 Received: from iagu.net (root@iag138580-1.gw.connect.com.au [203.63.126.77]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4Q8YCoi020338 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 16:34:41 +0800 Received: from [203.32.153.85] (andrewr@localhost.iagu.net [127.0.0.1]) by iagu.net (8.12.3/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h4Q8YA3O099979; Mon, 26 May 2003 18:04:10 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from andrewr@iagu.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: andrewr@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks From: Andrew Rutherford Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 16:35:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:04:05 +0930 At 5:38 PM +0930 26/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >At the AUUG board meeting on Saturday, we discussed the matter and >came to the conclusion that AUUG and Linux Australia should make a >press statement about the matter. We discussed whether this should be >a joint statement or separate statements and came to the conclusion >that we probably wouldn't be able to agree on the wording of a joint >statement quickly enough, so we'd probably have to issue separate >statements. I expressed the opinion that I would like the statements >to be as similar as possible, but the others are probably correct when >they say that this would be very difficult. I intend to put our >statement past the LA board before publishing, however, and I hope >they do the same. Also discussed was that although we would probably come up with different wordings and so two different press releases, there's no reason why the two different press releases could not be released jointly to help attract media attention. (If you can follow the noun versus verb distinctions in the above - "release" is a little overloaded. :-) It always helps if two different items about the same thing land on a journalists desk at the same time, so they can write an article taking the bits they like from both, having references to two statements in their article: "AUUG say this" and "Linux Australia say this" - it (hopefully) makes much more compelling reading. Short form: If we can't co-ordinate the words 100%, let's at least co-ordinate the timing. :-) -- Andrew Rutherford sip:andrewr@iagu.net 244 Pirie Street Iagu Networks tel:+61-8-8425-2255 Adelaide SA 5000 http://www.iagu.net/ mailto:andrewr@iagu.net Australia From Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au Mon May 26 18:31:32 2003 Received: from terminus.net.au (mail@terminus-gw.terminus.net.au [203.25.143.253]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4QAV7oi000591 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 18:31:32 +0800 Received: from [203.25.143.250] (helo=jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au) by terminus.net.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19KFFt-00025c-00; Mon, 26 May 2003 18:31:01 +0800 Received: FROM localhost ([127.0.0.1]) BY jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au WITH ESMTP ; Mon, 26 May 2003 18:30:59 +0800 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, task@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-i0vtFT7ufZ8Vl8+XGKDP" Organization: Terminus Network Services Message-Id: <1053945053.1112.889.camel@jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 X-Face: iuVo`YujDAo/]@n~w8d(~?)ovd#oK.S4b*/Le3S75-3f~AZhbB(IO@QY@J&A?Hc1-*9b%n?9AEINh)][ZSUd}u&Ry2R6/r6dagdd/*)=FON\{Ovy&.OJ0)K]J;dyL4,i:el*rp;[B/J6&~r$U"jC-,S7\.j]Kh$s X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . From: Jeremy Malcolm Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon May 26 18:32:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 26 May 2003 18:30:58 +0800 --=-i0vtFT7ufZ8Vl8+XGKDP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better >=20 > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: >=20 > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents=20 > all) would be a good foundation for a release. I am going to write something proper about all this, although I'm trying to write a submission on ACCC's Internet interconnection enquiry at the same time, hence my apparent slackness. You could use this as a soundbite I guess, or edit it to suit: "Vice Chairman of the Society of Linux Professionals (WA), Jeremy Malcolm, states, 'Much like British Telecom's recent failed patent enforcement claim in which it sought royalties for the use of hyperlinks on the Web, SCO's lawsuit against IBM is an opportunistic attempt to cash in on the burgeoning success of an operating system that has proved more popular, better-supported and more innovative than SCO's own. In a disingenuous and hypocritical claim built upon a succession of documented factual errors, SCO has risen to the forefront of those companies willing to employ fear, uncertainty and doubt as their primary weapons in the competitive race. It is only to be hoped that SCO's legal argument will be demolished like the house of cards that it is before too many corporate users of Linux are unnecessarily driven to adopt inferior operating systems.'" --=20 JEREMY MALCOLM Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. --=-i0vtFT7ufZ8Vl8+XGKDP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQB1AwUAPtHs3L/mBljD2JABAQIS5QMAsgbYNEaows+UwI9dxMIU9mxM8nu5dp04 aZ7vGoeYht5sHDKHGhAw3Q8CIquIbw+THKzzuNcd+OPZB9MUMAQ+zoUGd98nh1Yp cLpxFPkO36CyK/KwxP6g+hCYRfVGq4L3 =s0W3 -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --=-i0vtFT7ufZ8Vl8+XGKDP-- From chris@csamuel.org Tue May 27 06:18:48 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4QMINoi010920 for ; Tue, 27 May 2003 06:18:48 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F7F45AC; Mon, 26 May 2003 18:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305270819.00835.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 27 06:19:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:18:59 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the > stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? It appears to have been said by McBride in an interview, possibly with CNET News.com - article with offending quote is here: http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-999371.html This article from the good people at LWN seems to support that the chat was with CNET: http://lwn.net/Articles/31302/ perhaps an email to the journalist, Stephen Shankland , would confirm this ? good luck! Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtKS041yjaOTJg85AQFNyQgAtfghT/MqoQ/c5JxB3dn1m+1qDP8nxctT OA8EVvANUrBRKi235e8QthPOp6Q5K6bWaSB7e63JQF1nMj0IEnCXvRAXZ21XhT4z tID8WilpHRMEWfNpucdNTeKu8p09rJgAfgD+xw6O4JcMzqrigjnr1zD8wOaZVPyI Dy4PbcDUierKGH657Psn2+vGJrGWNvweA9+LbWthE/quZIu41HMDU/ZEwq8PVHX9 Qh8SxQwclqqTWZhL+y1QFZTi3OoQUrz3WFVA0FBZEp0l5ptQv0/cYrPvtiumn8tT FG+KOmdy89DgvM52ijw1D9jb/PaDkPgLGGDMjPP8MkXoqJKLqhw/BQ== =pvI7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris@csamuel.org Tue May 27 07:41:17 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4QNeooi019957 for ; Tue, 27 May 2003 07:41:16 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5945346A0; Mon, 26 May 2003 19:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Subject: [Linux-aus] LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 27 07:42:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:41:15 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the > stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? A very interesting development found via slashdot. LinuxTag have decided to set their lawyers onto SCO by issuing an "Abmahnung" - basically a legal warning to stop doing something that they feel is banned under Germanys unfair competition laws. For more details see [1] at the end of the email. Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? The LinuxTag.de "Abmahnung" requires SCO to either withdraw the claims about copied code, or make the evidence public, or face the court, with a deadline of the 30th May. Here's the text of the LinuxTag.de press release (the english version): http://www.linuxtag.org/2003/en/press/releases.xsp?id=3 English Version: LinuxTag has given notice to SCO Group GmbH to desist from unfair competitive practices Lawyers representing the LinuxTag association have given notice to SCO Group GmbH to desist from unfair competitive practiices. The notice, dated Friday, May 23, maintains that SCO Group is sowing uncertainty among the community of GNU/Linux users, developers and suppliers. "SCO needs to stop claiming that the standard Linux kernel violates its copyrights, or they need to lay the evidence for their claim on the table," said LinuxTag's Michael Kleinhenz. The association demanded that the German SCO subsidiary retract its claims regarding ownership of Linux kernel code by this Friday, May 30, or make its evidence public. "SCO must not be allowed to damage its competitors by unsubstantiated claims, to intimidate their customers, and to inflict lasting damage on the reputation of GNU/Linux as an open platform," Kleinhenz added. Until a few weeks ago, SCO itself distributed the Linux kernel GNU General Public License (GPL) as a member of the UnitedLinux alliance. Thus even if SCO owns parts of the Linux kernel, it has made them into Free Software by distributing them under the GPL. "This situation illustrates the superiority of the Free Software licensing model: If a software manufacturer withdraws from the development of GPL software, its contributions that were published under the the GPL up to that time remain available to users," said J黵gen Siepmann, attorney and founding member of LinuxTag. Till Jaeger, Director of the Institute for Legal Aspects of Free and Open Source Software, agrees: "Companies see this as an important pillar of investment security." There's a lot of heat and noise on Slashdot about this, especially where people don't understand the German law system, so I dug around a bit (thanks to Google) and found this explanation in English about what exactly an "Abmahnung" is. http://www.avrio.net/allcountrys/NewsAreasCivil.html Here's hoping that SCO will be forced to put up or shut up.. cheers! Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtKmG41yjaOTJg85AQHKbAf+NIwJaqgSq0fux+JQNG2R37KvHAGcJgd7 TpkSJLpwmAOkD9Mvd68x6Rd3y0P/fOQ1y9o5dJRQK7TlFt02zrQ3wMxSGZcXwcbI WfI661B25Qr2lIGll7Bm3g0GjKV76rtGtuiqphIUTA7Q88YhFJtQ6BObdSJcQN+5 eSF/27uA3rXf5pcSwsMmq2GtnWW77zZ4iHyxuQ8LEM8TmZyivF1eqVi9/PU42w08 rvY7A6hFZjrAB2eGbQ7yZfoTO1M9EKMeoLI4Pj0YxLGc3linUTsht4QYsJPuda2e Gi2wb8kNGf9avQABsFT58IQbeVHs+IXkODRCUnjAMpIbJV1InOhRtA== =OCzQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au Tue May 27 07:58:37 2003 Received: from terminus.net.au (mail@terminus-gw.terminus.net.au [203.25.143.253]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4QNwCoi021905 for ; Tue, 27 May 2003 07:58:36 +0800 Received: from [203.25.143.250] (helo=jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au) by terminus.net.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19KRqx-0007Xa-00; Tue, 27 May 2003 07:58:07 +0800 Received: FROM localhost ([127.0.0.1]) BY jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au WITH ESMTP ; Tue, 27 May 2003 07:58:05 +0800 To: members@lists.slpwa.asn.au Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Leon Brooks , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-I3p8j9LgX4xG/dfVBrOS" Organization: Terminus Network Services Message-Id: <1053993483.802.8.camel@jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 X-Face: iuVo`YujDAo/]@n~w8d(~?)ovd#oK.S4b*/Le3S75-3f~AZhbB(IO@QY@J&A?Hc1-*9b%n?9AEINh)][ZSUd}u&Ry2R6/r6dagdd/*)=FON\{Ovy&.OJ0)K]J;dyL4,i:el*rp;[B/J6&~r$U"jC-,S7\.j]Kh$s X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . From: Jeremy Malcolm Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue May 27 07:59:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 27 May 2003 07:58:05 +0800 --=-I3p8j9LgX4xG/dfVBrOS Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2003-05-27 at 07:41, Chris Samuel wrote: > Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means= "for=20 > one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? It means the injunction is sought in the absence of the other party, usually due to urgency or because the purpose of the injunction would be defeated if the other party knew about it. BTW I sent another email to these lists but I mis-spelled talk@auug.org.au as task@auug.org.au, so here is another copy of it: On Mon, 2003-05-26 at 18:30, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:=20 > > > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > > > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > >=20 > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > >=20 > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents= =20 > > all) would be a good foundation for a release. >=20 > I am going to write something proper about all this, although I'm trying > to write a submission on ACCC's Internet interconnection enquiry at the > same time, hence my apparent slackness. You could use this as a soundbit= e > I guess, or edit it to suit: >=20 > "Vice Chairman of the Society of Linux Professionals (WA), Jeremy Malcolm= , > states, 'Much like British Telecom's recent failed patent enforcement > claim in which it sought royalties for the use of hyperlinks on the Web, > SCO's lawsuit against IBM is an opportunistic attempt to cash in on the > burgeoning success of an operating system that has proved more popular, > better-supported and more innovative than SCO's own. In a disingenuous > and hypocritical claim built upon a succession of documented factual > errors, SCO has risen to the forefront of those companies willing to > employ fear, uncertainty and doubt as their primary weapons in the > competitive race. It is only to be hoped that SCO's legal argument will > be demolished like the house of cards that it is before too many > corporate users of Linux are unnecessarily driven to adopt inferior > operating systems.'" --=20 JEREMY MALCOLM Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. --=-I3p8j9LgX4xG/dfVBrOS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQB1AwUAPtKqCr/mBljD2JABAQK9DwL+NaH+QQ/fzJpCbFD4W4aOCMlGdpLjfjOR Dn0Z4ShDgkBB3Uf38F61ESKDqel/T9LCr/zvu5v9KyuX5MK/1TNARMWF+5+lraNe 81YqC0XTwlur3qoCuYbEpBDEDpH0/0nG =5OgI -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --=-I3p8j9LgX4xG/dfVBrOS-- From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Wed May 28 20:24:58 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [203.222.130.46]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4SCOUoi031782 for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 20:24:58 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4SCOPmF007997 for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 22:24:25 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h4SCOPJE007995 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Wed, 28 May 2003 22:24:25 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030528122425.GA7983@linmagau.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Subject: [Linux-aus] More on SCO :) This time from AUUG Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 28 20:25:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:24:25 +1000 PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE AUUG CALLS FOR SCO TO CEASE DESTRUCTIVE ACTIONS AUUG Inc. calls on SCO to cease its destructive actions and to work toward the constructive resolution of intellectual property issues. SYDNEY, Australia -- 28 May 2003 -- The Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group (AUUG, Inc.) today called on SCO (formerly Caldera) to cease its destructive actions and work toward the constructive resolution of any intellectual property (IP) issues SCO has with the Linux and Open Source communities. AUUG further called on SCO to publicly identify any IP violations in Linux so the issues can be resolved as soon as possible. The full release on the PLUG site :) http://www.plug.linux.org.au Gordon Hubbard, Treasurer and Press Secretary for AUUG Inc. advises the release will be on the AUUG pages ASAP :) Regards Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org From bob@fots.org.au Wed May 28 23:18:14 2003 Received: from fots.org.au (contentb.iinet.net.au [203.59.131.96] (may be forged)) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4SFHhoi021375 for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:18:14 +0800 Received: from fegs.effnet (fegs.effnet [192.168.0.111]) by fots.org.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h4SFHb4T015409 for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:17:37 +0800 From: bob To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 28 23:19:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:17:37 +0800 Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records reveals that Novell owns those patents." "Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it." Plus many more quotable quotes. -- It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. From jdub@perkypants.org Wed May 28 23:28:49 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-07.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.39]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4SFSLoi022543 for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:28:49 +0800 Received: (qmail 11436 invoked from network); 28 May 2003 15:27:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.198) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 28 May 2003 15:27:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E69C8C1A9 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 01:27:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19278-10 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 01:27:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D954B8C19E for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 01:27:27 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 929A212B6C2; Thu, 29 May 2003 01:27:29 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. Message-ID: <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 1 01:26:33 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 01:26:33 up 5 days, 12:53, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.07, 0.05 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p2 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed May 28 23:29:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:27:29 +1000 > Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html > > "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must > know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records > reveals that Novell owns those patents." And SCO's response: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030528/law059_1.html Bruce Perens saying nice things about Novell: http://www.perens.com/Articles/SCO/BigLie.html I'm glad no one has been silly enough to send out a press release so far. :) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Consensus is whatever the developers remember or agree with." - Paul Vixie, Open Sources From conz@cyber.com.au Thu May 29 08:42:22 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T0fqoi020961 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 08:42:21 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA10295 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 10:41:51 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D203357BADD; Thu, 29 May 2003 10:41:50 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. Message-ID: <20030529004150.GL15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 08:43:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:41:50 +1000 On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 01:27:29AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V > > > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html > > > > "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must > > know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records > > reveals that Novell owns those patents." > > And SCO's response: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030528/law059_1.html > Indeed. SCO never claimed a patent issue case. Hoever, from the press release: Copyrights and patents are protection against strangers. Contracts are what you use against parties you have relationships with. From a legal standpoint, contracts end up being far stronger than anything you could do with copyrights. SCO's lawsuit against IBM does not involve patents or copyrights. SCO's complaint specifically alleges breach of contract, and SCO intends to protect and enforce all of the contracts that the company has with more than 6,000 licensees. Translates to: We can only ever sue IBM, and not Red Hat, Suse nor normal Linux users, as it's only IBM whom we have a contract with that we claimed they breached. Therefore, our public comments threatening these other enteties is legal hot air, which we are spouting to scare people off Linux, but which we cannot actually take further. We know this, as evidenced by this press release response to Novell, yet we continue to spread fear and doubt. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu May 29 09:06:04 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-173-236.arach.net.au [202.89.173.236]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T15Yoi023666 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 09:06:03 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A959A13CBC for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 09:16:01 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication User-Agent: KMail/1.5 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305290916.00962.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: [Talk] Novell the Red Knight... Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 09:07:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:16:00 +0800 FYI ---------- Forward; originally to talk@auug.org.au ---------- Subject: [Talk] Novell the Red Knight... Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:36 From: David J N Begley To: talk@auug.org.au In case there's anyone left who hasn't already seen this, Novell has come out swinging (hard) against SCO and its claims against IBM and Linux. In short, Novell accuse SCO of falsely claiming ownership of UNIX intellectual property (pointing to public records and business correspondence indicating Novell still owns same) in order to "sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt ... in order to extort payments from Linux distributors and users". Novell goes on to reiterate strong support for Linux and open source. This, of course, raises some rather embarrassing questions about Microsoft "supporting intellectual property ownership" by giving money to SCO recently. The Novell press release: http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html The inevitable Slashdot follow-up: http://slashdot.org/articles/03/05/28/1252229.shtml?tid=123&tid=130&tid =185&tid=190&tid=99 Anyone writing any press release for AUUG should probably take this major development into account. Interesting times indeed... _______________________________________________ Talk mailing list Talk@auug.org.au http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From grog@lemis.com Thu May 29 11:14:17 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T3Dooi004871 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 11:14:15 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C0F2F51A6F; Thu, 29 May 2003 12:43:46 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Samuel Cc: Leon Brooks , members@lists.slpwa.asn.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="16qp2B0xu0fRvRD7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 11:15:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:43:46 +0930 --16qp2B0xu0fRvRD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, 27 May 2003 at 9:41:15 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the >> stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? > > A very interesting development found via slashdot. LinuxTag have decided = to > set their lawyers onto SCO by issuing an "Abmahnung" - basically a legal > warning to stop doing something that they feel is banned under Germanys > unfair competition laws. For more details see [1] at the end of the email. > > Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means= "for > one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? Probably nothing. It's the *translation* of a legal term. All legal terms are only relevant in their context. That's why the term Abmahnung can't be translated in legal context, because the concept doesn't exist in English or Australian law (I believe; IANAL). The original German term is "einstweilige Verf=FCgung", which means, roughly, a temporary decree. The intention here is to stop people from doing something which could be detrimental to the interests of one party until the case can be handled in court. Contrary to what the reference implies, German courts are *very* slow, and the einstweilige Verf=FCgung is intended to defuse this problem by providing immediate relief for the interim. Einstweilige Verf=FCgungen can, indeed, be issued within hours. So what does ex-parte mean? In legal terms, that means made or executed on one side only. I assume in this case it's the judge who acts alone without more than a modicum of proof. I'll leave it to others to decide whether this is a good translation. > The LinuxTag.de "Abmahnung" requires SCO to either withdraw the > claims about copied code, or make the evidence public, or face the > court, with a deadline of the 30th May. Interestingly, you don't have to be an involved party to issue an Abmahnung. There's a lawyer in M=FCnchen (Munich) who lives off issuing Abmahnungen to people who use names in "inappropriate" ways. Some years ago there was an Intel processor chip set called Triton. As I commented in the zeroth edition of "The Complete FreeBSD",=20 Triton is not a trade mark of Intel Corporation. It is a trade mark of some other company which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with computers. Unfortunately, an overly zealous German lawyer has taken to suing people who use this name to refer to the chipset. Sheesh. This was done with Abmahnungen. Getting back to my original question, I have since spoken with Kieran O'Shaughnessy about the matter. The results, some of which are interesting, are in the latest revision of http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --16qp2B0xu0fRvRD7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+1XrqIubykFB6QiMRAjbcAJ9ilU6RHsVVQdWGitDztJVlMruFNACeObqa MBKWIyHBAsMN2Ioi92NeZTo= =/Z4p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --16qp2B0xu0fRvRD7-- From chris@csamuel.org Thu May 29 12:17:49 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T4HHoi012034 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 12:17:49 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2583C444B for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 00:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305291416.37897.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 12:18:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:16:36 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 29 May 2003 1:13 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Interestingly, you don't have to be an involved party to issue an > Abmahnung. There's a lawyer in M黱chen (Munich) who lives off issuing > Abmahnungen to people who use names in "inappropriate" ways. The same happened to the guy who was developing killustrator, which had to be renamed to kontour (now looks like it's been replaced with Karbon14 in KOffice). Not Reinhard Skuhra Weise & Partner by some chance ? - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtWJpI1yjaOTJg85AQG89wf/eYA5WcI6g15E/HenAagNJLfAsddSvTih J+lGX1pYyJA8PftE4PxyeiRQHUrfGHgT0KDc3GSU/lmfZjKEIS8eAHyMe0poARKe W05jMxWGh8zzaiJss/qrTmtyFPWtwKyetqmUMt8EruWyILewaJ43VHp/fsm+SSVh XcZHOVvrEPyA6QoLZJb2PIv3KF48G196LwBHsY2NxNbg4NzmBs925YwqQxdB1Xmi Yz74oeiUI2KD8TItT50t0G5WJKtrmHIEeuMh7n6V2LPg2CnNWDHULOGTIGShSy3z ONU8Al1U1mQqDxaJzT8hShhaeHonKjAAtxzU2N5/K0FCy7Z8H5w2Lw== =Quh+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris@csamuel.org Thu May 29 13:00:51 2003 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T50Qoi016732 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 13:00:50 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A151A431A for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 00:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 13:01:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:58:23 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- OK - so: - - Novell say SCO doesn't own the copyrights or patents to UNIX. - - The US Patent Office says SCO doesn't own the patents to UNIX. - - SCO say that their case against IBM doesn't involve patents (in their response to Novell) about UNIX. - - SCO says the whole deal is about (AT&T originated) UNIX. and then: - - SCO's chairman says that SCO may sue Linus for patent infringement. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BC408959E-005A-4E93-9006-B32DCD1FCA22%7D McBride added that unless more companies start licensing SCO's property, he may also sue Linus Torvalds, who is credited with inventing the Linux operating system, for patent infringement. Who do they think they're kidding ? Interestingly SCO's share price dropped by 24% (as can be seen on SCO's own website currently - http://ir.sco.com/ - it shows them at 6.60 down 24% - lowest was $5.85). Here's a wild dream, IBM and Novell team up, buy SCO, GPL UNIX and release patents for general use... Yeah, I know, pretty wild dream.. :-) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtWTb41yjaOTJg85AQGRkAf/Ze+HULZ5CKfnEwiqyGspxanK5mATf6C/ dnmOBPWAXEWHqDimfdJlskdZ/Sn8S/61fSIzUgHZoPvbocspgoHqIIHoadJpoDmU pYUkrlUta2F1AQmkppbKmnd6Zpy88fzCbOtC3mwxAoVkp7vXIJll70PUyaKzHGUy VvNKGhGJoh1yTPkcH3qBn4xGJHLu/xoTHs2qtaMc+kWt/BbjkElAGiNScIyMSIlK egNx/H5XHk3hWMUEG2QGfyDHFwp7rW7ze8r0TIglzBwhcYtr5NN81nMHRCEqDuYI V2HybkQV937LDaaxh8FGcQv2BUod25Z51GIS4coAwvIugnhv4mPAMg== =S4te -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From xfesty@computeraddictions.com.au Thu May 29 13:10:24 2003 Received: from quack.2xstreams.com ([216.158.96.65]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T59woi017763 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 13:10:24 +0800 Received: from computeraddictions.com.au (mail.d3c.com.au [150.101.228.158]) by phunkrepublic.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4T59qN01103; Wed, 28 May 2003 22:09:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: Chris Samuel From: Ryan Verner In-Reply-To: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 0.5.4 (v22 Jaguar) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 13:11:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:40:00 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 02:28 PM, Chris Samuel wrote: > Here's a wild dream, IBM and Novell team up, buy SCO, GPL UNIX and > release > patents for general use... Yeah, I know, pretty wild dream.. :-) SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in people walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind this /is/ to be bought out. I think they've pissed off enough people at both aforementioned companies for this to be a reality anymore. R - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 PH: +61 418 186 604 IRC: xf / irc.openrejects.net "Oh no, not again." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+1ZYrRcxk39PM6wcRAm5qAJ91PwDh++OXfoT0lXfbcP9NOGy3YwCeOmcs BW/VRhFN61VSilk1rD2uTW8= =ql3g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub@perkypants.org Thu May 29 14:16:50 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-02.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.34]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4T6GOoi025259 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 14:16:50 +0800 Received: (qmail 7227 invoked from network); 29 May 2003 06:16:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.198) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 29 May 2003 06:16:18 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26A48C1A9 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07683-05 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823648C19E for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 71AF012B6C2; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:22 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 1 16:01:46 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 16:01:46 up 6 days, 3:28, 2 users, load average: 0.07, 0.10, 0.07 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p2 (Debian) Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 14:17:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:22 +1000 Hi all, With the renewed level of interesting conversation on linux-aus, and its status as a gathering area for everyone interested in Linux Australia, the new 'lug' list has not been in use. I think the LUGs are a crucial part of Linux Australia's constituency and community responsibility, so we should try and make the most of this list... I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum for the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to organise country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make sure that LA continues to represent the entire country. - A place to discuss inter-LUG cooperation, events, experiences, etc. Of course, much of LA's communication should be directly to linux-aus, available to the entire community. A private 'lug' list should not cause the LA ctte to be less transparent. Hopefully it will enhance communication between LA and the LUGs, and between the LUGs themselves, which will have flow-on effects for the entire community. I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but private forum. Thanks, - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "I love 2001. Especially the beginning with the proto-humans screaming at each other and beating each other to death with rocks and bones. That very neatly encapsulates my whole concept of interpersonal relationships." - Branden Robinson From lloy0076@adam.com.au Thu May 29 14:29:40 2003 Received: from postit.adam.com.au (postit.adam.com.au [203.2.124.173]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T6T6oi026686 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 14:29:39 +0800 Received: from lightning.adam.com.au (lightning.adam.com.au [203.2.124.20]) by postit.adam.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h4T6UfqM087348 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:00:41 +0930 (CST) Received: (qmail 15596 invoked from network); 29 May 2003 06:29:06 -0000 Received: from 202-6-159-192.ip.adam.com.au (HELO mordor.middlearth.net.au) (202.6.159.192) by eden.adam.com.au with SMTP; 29 May 2003 06:29:06 -0000 From: David Lloyd To: Jeff Waugh Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list Message-Id: <20030529160548.7c72667e.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 14:30:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:05:48 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Good idea...perhaps Stewart (Vice President) and you can liaise with each other to make it so ;-) DSL -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1apEmk7m2JX6ki4RAkDvAJsGlDk+evQ7cSPSmZQM+9qXqHdgaQCgq9zo INkamrn2RTC3b8UMU7uS4Ao= =E2PU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub@perkypants.org Thu May 29 14:32:53 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-06.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.38]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4T6WRoi027095 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 14:32:53 +0800 Received: (qmail 9663 invoked from network); 29 May 2003 06:30:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.198) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 29 May 2003 06:30:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AB58C1A9 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:30:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07683-06 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:30:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247F68C19E for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:30:08 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1142A12B6C2; Thu, 29 May 2003 16:30:10 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality Message-ID: <20030529063010.GF26623@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 1 16:21:36 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 16:21:36 up 6 days, 3:47, 2 users, load average: 0.34, 0.16, 0.05 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p2 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 14:33:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:30:10 +1000 > SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in people > walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind this > /is/ to be bought out. It is frustrating to see them royally barfing up their own story all the time, when I would far prefer to see us showing them up for the miserable twats they are. Why must they do such an excellent job of it, denying us our rightful satisfaction? :-) I must admit that I'm having a hard time mustering an intelligent response to the situation any more. It is just so hilariously deplorable. Must refocus. ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but don't be gagged. The time of trial is always." - John J. Chapman From bhards@bigpond.net.au Thu May 29 17:27:55 2003 Received: from mta07bw.bigpond.com (mta07bw.bigpond.com [144.135.24.134]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T9RUoi013965 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 17:27:55 +0800 Received: from rachel ([144.135.24.69]) by mta07bw.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HFN00D4968T76@mta07bw.email.bigpond.com> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Thu, 29 May 2003 19:26:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from cpe-203-51-30-237.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.30.237]) by bwmam01bpa.bigpond.com(MAM $Name: REL_3_3_2b $ 8/198203); Thu, 29 May 2003 19:26:53 +0000 From: Brad Hards Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-reply-to: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> To: Jeff Waugh , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-id: <200305291922.10772.bhards@bigpond.net.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-description: clearsigned data User-Agent: KMail/1.5.9 References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 17:28:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:22:10 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16 pm, Jeff Waugh wrote: > - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make sure > that LA continues to represent the entire country. This is a problem for C(anberra)LUG, which has no formal representatives. Is a lug- list really needed? I see LUGs as really important, but don't see where the distinction between the linux-aus list and a lug- list should be drawn. Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1dFCW6pHgIdAuOMRAgGtAJ9dGuaSrzlSVVcvEBg6PE88oTH4BQCgo9Kt K41kHsSWr6YEf6P4MpELn8o= =0QdI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mikal@stillhq.com Thu May 29 17:45:20 2003 Received: from mta03ps.bigpond.com (mta03ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.157]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4T9iroi015867 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 17:45:20 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([144.135.25.75]) by mta03ps.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HFN00LQS72NRS@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Thu, 29 May 2003 19:44:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from cpe-203-51-35-71.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.35.71]) by psmam03.bigpond.com(MAM V3.3.2 83/2973597); Thu, 29 May 2003 19:44:47 +0000 Received: from localhost (mikal@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27621; Thu, 29 May 2003 19:44:40 +1000 From: Michael Still Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-reply-to: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> X-Sender: To: Jeff Waugh Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 17:46:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:44:40 +1000 On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum for > the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: Brad is correct as to the structure of CLUG. One possible solution is to subscribe the CLUG list to the LUG list, but this strikes me as defeating the purpose. > - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to organise > country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. In the past I have offered to be a CLUG contact, but only so long as other CLUG members remain comfortable with this. This was the case with LCA 2003. Tridge is another obvious candidate, but he gets quite busy... > I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the > ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but private > forum. Perhaps some form of moderation for non-subscribers then? That way, a CLUG concern can still be raised, without us seeing the rest of the content. Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal@stillhq.com) | Stage 1: Steal underpants http://www.stillhq.com | Stage 2: ???? UTC + 10 | Stage 3: Profit From stewartsmith@mac.com Thu May 29 18:04:33 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-87.apple.com [17.250.248.87]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4TA45oi018023 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:04:33 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4TA44BD024471 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 03:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4TA3jDJ028740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Thu, 29 May 2003 03:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: Jeff Waugh From: Stewart Smith In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 18:05:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:04:39 +1000 This is also my vision for the lugs list. Maybe in an email out to all the LUG people (who have responded to me saying that their LUG is active) I'll point this out and ask them to join it so that we can have wider communication between LUGs (and LA). yay jeff for speaking my mind for me :) On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 04:16 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi all, > > With the renewed level of interesting conversation on linux-aus, and > its > status as a gathering area for everyone interested in Linux Australia, > the > new 'lug' list has not been in use. I think the LUGs are a crucial > part of > Linux Australia's constituency and community responsibility, so we > should > try and make the most of this list... > > I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum > for > the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: > > - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to > organise > country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. > > - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make > sure > that LA continues to represent the entire country. > > - A place to discuss inter-LUG cooperation, events, experiences, etc. > > Of course, much of LA's communication should be directly to linux-aus, > available to the entire community. A private 'lug' list should not > cause the > LA ctte to be less transparent. Hopefully it will enhance communication > between LA and the LUGs, and between the LUGs themselves, which will > have > flow-on effects for the entire community. > > I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the > ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but > private > forum. > > Thanks, > > - Jeff > > -- > GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland > http://www.guadec.org/ > > "I love 2001. Especially the beginning with the proto-humans > screaming > at each other and beating each other to death with rocks and bones. > That very neatly encapsulates my whole concept of interpersonal > relationships." - Branden Robinson > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith@mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From stewartsmith@mac.com Thu May 29 18:07:53 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4TA7Boi018389 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:07:52 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4TA79xo018395 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 03:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4TA6Zxm028459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 03:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Stewart Smith To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20030529063010.GF26623@lazarus> Message-Id: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 18:09:18 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:07:37 +1000 I'm starting to imagine John Cleese walking rather sillily around the room while saying stuff about the SCO case and I'm laughing just as hard as if he was talking about the budget for the Ministry of Silly Walks. arguably the SCO stuff is funnier. it's getting a bit hard to take the piss, they're doing a fine job on their own. On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 04:30 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > >> SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in >> people >> walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind >> this >> /is/ to be bought out. > > It is frustrating to see them royally barfing up their own story all > the > time, when I would far prefer to see us showing them up for the > miserable > twats they are. Why must they do such an excellent job of it, denying > us our > rightful satisfaction? :-) > > I must admit that I'm having a hard time mustering an intelligent > response > to the situation any more. It is just so hilariously deplorable. > > Must refocus. ;-) > > - Jeff > > -- > linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia > http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ > > "Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but > don't > be gagged. The time of trial is always." - John J. Chapman > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith@mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From tony@linuxworks.com.au Thu May 29 20:58:10 2003 Received: from localhost.localdomain (CPE-203-51-204-183.qld.bigpond.net.au [203.51.204.183]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4TCvioi004798 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 20:58:09 +0800 Received: from gandalf.linuxworks.com.au (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h4TCvYXt016458 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 22:57:34 +1000 Received: from linuxworks.com.au (tony@localhost) by gandalf.linuxworks.com.au (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) with ESMTP id h4TCvXgK016456 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 22:57:34 +1000 Message-Id: <200305291257.h4TCvXgK016456@gandalf.linuxworks.com.au.nospam> To: Linux Australia Email List From: Tony Nugent X-image-url: http://www.linuxworks.com.au/tony48x48.jpg Organization: Linux Works X-Mailer: nmh-1.0.4 exmh-2.6.3 X-OS: Linux-2.4 RedHat 7.3 Subject: [Linux-aus] linux wins in Munich Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 20:59:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:57:33 +1000 A change of subject with some good news: Microsoft down and out in Munich http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/30912.html Microsoft loses city of Munich deal to Linux http://www.forbes.com/home_europe/newswire/2003/05/28/rtr984204.html Cheers Tony From jdub@perkypants.org Thu May 29 21:19:03 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-09.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.41]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h4TDIdoi007096 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 21:19:03 +0800 Received: (qmail 16119 invoked from network); 29 May 2003 13:18:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.198) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 29 May 2003 13:18:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD0F8C1A9 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:18:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from home.perkypants.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (katia [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07683-07 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:18:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BE68C19E for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:18:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C9D8712B6C2; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:18:37 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list Message-ID: <20030529131837.GH26623@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.21-rc1 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 1 23:17:03 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 23:17:03 up 6 days, 10:43, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.04, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030314-p2 (Debian) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu May 29 21:20:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:18:37 +1000 > Perhaps some form of moderation for non-subscribers then? That way, a CLUG > concern can still be raised, without us seeing the rest of the content. I think it would be really important for CLUG to be involved 'properly'. We'll have to figure out a neat way of supporting CLUG's structure somehow. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "It's not sufficient to 'use simple words to explain things'. Things must actually *be* simple, which is much harder." - Martin Pool From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri May 30 16:13:07 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-173-236.arach.net.au [202.89.173.236]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4U8Cioi000775 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:13:07 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077E613CBC for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:17:59 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality: another 10% off today User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> In-Reply-To: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305301617.58507.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 30 16:14:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:17:58 +0800 On Thu, 29 May 2003 12:58, Chris Samuel wrote: > Interestingly SCO's share price dropped by 24% (as can be seen on > SCO's own website currently - http://ir.sco.com/ - it shows them at > 6.60 down 24% - lowest was $5.85). Another 9% down today, but looks flat. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SCOX&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l Wonder what the bunch of trading was late Thursday/early Wednesday, just before the plunge? People who knew the dip was coming? Or a SCO director cashing in on the bloated price? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri May 30 16:15:51 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-173-236.arach.net.au [202.89.173.236]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4U8FWoi001085 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:15:51 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D551013CBC for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:20:47 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality - Hazzardous User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305301620.47488.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 30 16:18:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:20:47 +0800 On Thu, 29 May 2003 18:07, Stewart Smith wrote: > I'm starting to imagine John Cleese walking rather sillily around the > room while saying stuff about the SCO case and I'm laughing just as > hard as if he was talking about the budget for the Ministry of Silly > Walks. http://www.arie.org/doh/ It's not John, but maybe Bo and Luke will tickle yer funnybone enough? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From stewartsmith@mac.com Fri May 30 20:21:38 2003 Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-87.apple.com [17.250.248.87]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4UCLDoi027892 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:21:38 +0800 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4UCLAUD021074 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (c18824.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4UCKF9L010538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 30 May 2003 05:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: debian-melb@taz.net.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au To: Martin Michlmayr From: Stewart Smith In-Reply-To: <20030530095137.GC16703@regression.cyrius.com> Message-Id: <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by digital.linux.org.au id h4UCLDoi027892 Subject: [Linux-aus] Debian 10th birthday celebrations (was Re: next meeting) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 30 20:22:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:21:20 +1000 On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 07:51 PM, Martin Michlmayr wrote: > * An韇al Monsalve Salazar [2003-05-30 > 08:58]: >>> FWIW, Japanese or Chinese sounds good to me. >> Would you like to set a date? > > I'm busy the next 3 weeks and then leaving to the States and Europe. > I will be back in August -- just in time to celebrate Debian's 10th > birthday which is on August 16th. We should definitely plan a party > for that (but if you want to go out for lunch/dinner in the meantime, > no problem). Maybe a synchronized nation-wide birthday bash could be organized? That could attract some more attention from the general community/media and raise our profile in Australia. There's also been the mention of doing something at LCA04 for a belated debian birthday do. Don't quote me on details though, i saw a dot point :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart@linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From lloy0076@adam.com.au Fri May 30 20:35:27 2003 Received: from postit.adam.com.au (postit.adam.com.au [203.2.124.173]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h4UCZ8oi029420 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:35:27 +0800 Received: from lightning.adam.com.au (lightning.adam.com.au [203.2.124.20]) by postit.adam.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h4UCawqM095366 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 22:06:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (qmail 80299 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 12:35:08 -0000 Received: from 202-6-159-192.ip.adam.com.au (HELO mordor.middlearth.net.au) (202.6.159.192) by eden.adam.com.au with SMTP; 30 May 2003 12:35:08 -0000 From: David Lloyd To: Stewart Smith Cc: tbm@cyrius.com, debian-melb@taz.net.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Debian 10th birthday celebrations (was Re: next meeting) Message-Id: <20030530221152.307902d7.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <20030530095137.GC16703@regression.cyrius.com> <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri May 30 20:36:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:11:52 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stewart, > There's also been the mention of doing something at LCA04 for a > belated debian birthday do. Don't quote me on details though, i saw a > dot point :) A belated Debian birthday at LCA-2004? /me ponders - -- He saw himslf as alive... And I saw him dead! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+11GQmk7m2JX6ki4RAiTjAKDSaSuQUFa2UMFveH6ro78TJEaOPgCfWVPV geeH+3cZkaGo7YkS0UGwhV4= =PG+a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 1 10:08:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 1 10:08:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: IBM launches project to boost open source use Message-ID: <200305011007.56415.leon@cyberknights.com.au> ---------- Forward; originally to "echalk List" ---------- Subject: IBM launches project to boost open source use Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:20 From: "Kim Flintoff" To: "echalk List" IBM launches project to boost open source use By Online Staff April 30 2003 IBM Australia has announced a three-year project to focus on increasing the performance of open source software like Linux to facilitate the movement of such software into enterprise computing. The project will be the first under a new initiative - the Centre for Advanced Studies (CAS) - which was announced by the company in Sydney today. The CAS aims to consolidate the amount - over $40 million - which IBM invests in national research each year. The project will be carried out in collaboration with the Federal Government's ICT Centre of Excellence. The CAS, the first outside North America, will give Australian researchers access to the company's worldwide research resources. IBM's 15 existing research relationships/projects in Australia will now come under the centre's programme. The project will be undertaken by National ICT Australia (NICTA) at its University of New South Wales site. The initial phase will involve seconded staff, as well as PhD and honours students from the University. IBM Australia CEO Philip Bullock said: "Open source is key to the future of business as it enables greater levels of connectivity and integration within an organisation and with its business partners, customers and suppliers." This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/30/1051381980670.html ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030501/95d1e19c/attachment.htm From bhards at bigpond.net.au Thu May 1 16:29:01 2003 From: bhards at bigpond.net.au (Brad Hards) Date: Thu May 1 16:29:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership Message-ID: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Below is a message I sent to Pia Smith in response to a message sent to everyone that attended LCA2003. Since a month has passed and I have received no response, I'll go wider. Note that I have editted it slightly to correct spellos. On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? Brad - - - - On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57, Pia Smith wrote: > ___________________________________________ > > > Welcome to Linux Australia. > > As you may (or may not) be aware, your Linux Conf Au 2003 registration > included membership to Linux Australia. Nice idea, but I think it is illegal. Because being a member carries certain obligations, people can't be members without their explicit consent - it is a common law issue relating to how to two people cannot act to bind a third person (or something like that - IANAL). Also, it is unconstitutional: (1) An application by a person for normal membership of the association: (a) must be made by a member of the association in writing in the form set out in Appendix 1 to these rules; and (b) must be lodged with the secretary of the association. Appendix 1 shows that the application needs to be signed by the applicant, which clearly hasn't been done for all the "auto-members". Thoughts? Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sNn2W6pHgIdAuOMRAqO9AJ9Uc0w6onTUNcSwrpShN4AzY1LWSACeNf2j ExuoFYANUNZOSK2PKbfS6XA= =MMA3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 1 17:03:27 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 1 17:03:27 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> Hi Ian, As this is of general interest (more general than education), it's probably more appropriate on the linux-aus mailing list. Thanks, - Jeff > This notice has just appeared in the Linux SA mailing list. > _____________________________ > I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat > spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is > introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. > > In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: > > > 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about > > the procurement of computer software for its operations, > > have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a > > public authority should use open source software in > > preference to proprietary software. > > I've put up his draft speech at > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/oss-bill/and > put up the bill at > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/oss-bill/open-source-bill.pdf > > For the Bill to move forward, it needs support from the > Government or the Opposition (or both!), so if you want to > lobby your local member of Parliament to support it, I think > that would be a good thing. Any political-type people have > any suggestions on doing this? I gather that you can find > your local member of Parliament at: > http://www.seo.sa.gov.au/apps/news/?year=2002 > _____________________________ > > Cheers, Ian -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Women are too irrational to be crazed killers anyway." - Angus Lees From maddog at li.org Thu May 1 20:25:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 1 20:25:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: Message from Brad Hards of "Thu, 01 May 2003 18:25:25 +1000." <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <200305011225.h41CP55m001286@localhost.localdomain> Hi, USENIX in the United States has a check box on the form that allows the person to elect membership when they register for the conference. The members conference fee plus membership fee usually is equal to the non-members conference fee, but there is the concept of "value transferred" and "election". md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From james at rcpt.to Fri May 2 07:29:02 2003 From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger) Date: Fri May 2 07:29:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <20030501232644.GA908@phobe.internal.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au> Brad Hards (bhards at bigpond.net.au) wrote: > Below is a message I sent to Pia Smith in response to a message sent to > everyone that attended LCA2003. Since a month has passed and I have received > no response, I'll go wider. Note that I have editted it slightly to correct > spellos. > > On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57, Pia Smith wrote: > > As you may (or may not) be aware, your Linux Conf Au 2003 registration > > included membership to Linux Australia. > Nice idea, but I think it is illegal. Because being a member carries certain > obligations, people can't be members without their explicit consent - it is a > common law issue relating to how to two people cannot act to bind a third > person (or something like that - IANAL). Well, IIRC from the haze and flashing lights that was LCA2003, there was a membership form to be returned to the then LCA committee to give consent, no? I know I madly made sure mine was filled in and handed to Anand at the time. > Appendix 1 shows that the application needs to be signed by the applicant, > which clearly hasn't been done for all the "auto-members". > > Thoughts? IMHO, the 'auto-members' is the pickup for those that were given membership, and didn't bother to fill in the form. So, the question is, if our there are people who were given memberships and did not fill them in, do they: (a) get a membership anyway (b) get prompted via email saying "you got a free membership, but you should have filled in the form in the conference pack. We cant find yours; please complete by return email"... (c) get forgotten since they couldn't be bothered (however some may have been misplaced??) OK, off to bed. 00:26 BST (+0100). Regards, James -- James Bromberger www.james.rcpt.to Remainder moved to http://www.james.rcpt.to/james/sig.html I am in London on UK mobile +44 7952 042920. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030502/186050bd/attachment.pgp From president at linux.org.au Fri May 2 09:02:33 2003 From: president at linux.org.au (Pia Smith) Date: Fri May 2 09:02:33 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> Hi all, First of all, an apology to Brad for not getting back to him sooner. Unfortunately our responses are not always as prompt as we'd like, but we are getting through quote a few :) On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 18:25, Brad Hards wrote: > On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? One of the first things we discussed was the consitution and how legit the preceedings at LCA Perth were. The decision was made by the previous committee in an attempt to jump start the organisation to be something better for everyone. All people who attended LCA had on their receipt notice of their free membership to LA, with the idea that if anyone didn't want it, they could let LA know. As James mentioned we also had the forms to fill out in the LCA bags, and we received quite a few of them back, we also had a few people wish to not be a member, so they were taken off the membership. Jons suggestion for the "Do you want free Linux Australia membership" check box on the registration page is an excellent idea (hence this being forwarded to lca2004 organisers :) thanks Jon!) and certainly takes care of the current issue for next year. We have a team of people (headed by Stewart) who are working on what exact constitution changes need to be made, and we will be presenting them at the next AGM to sort it all out. Anyone with an interest is welcome to email him or the committee. Unfortunately, at the end of the day it is already done. We really want to do what we can for the community, and build this organisation into something useful and interesting for the Australian Linux community. Hopefully we can get all the internal stuff sorted out this year so that next year Linux Australia will not have the same problems :) Our minutes are now up publicly under "Committee News" at http://linux.org.au We've had them publicly accessible for a while but they weren't anywhere sane until recently. Thanks and regards, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From conz at cyber.com.au Fri May 2 09:27:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Fri May 2 09:27:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 06:44:37PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi Ian, > > As this is of general interest (more general than education), it's probably > more appropriate on the linux-aus mailing list. > > Thanks, > > - Jeff > > > > > This notice has just appeared in the Linux SA mailing list. > > _____________________________ > > I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat > > spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is > > introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. > > > > In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: > > > > > 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about > > > the procurement of computer software for its operations, > > > have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a > > > public authority should use open source software in > > > preference to proprietary software. Much as I'd like to see free software in widest possible deployment, I don't believe this approach is the most effective. There's too much that can easily be attacked as partisan, which will cause many politicians who would otherwise have supported such law, to back off. It's also too easy for well leveraged vested interest groups to (appear) justifiably antagonistic towards. I would posit that the most effective case to be made in this country (other countries will need different tactics) is to push for the following: 1) All government bodies should only use technologies for which file formats and network communication protocols are open and documented. 2) Preference should be given to technologies for which there are multiple vendors, helping better position future government purchasing tactically and avoiding vendor lock-in and price gouging. 3) Preference should be given to technologies for which there is is a case to be made that local industry can benefit, and that import replacements can be reduced, helping improve our balance of trade imbalance. Simply by implementing such a rule-set in state and federal purchasing policy, we will see FOSS acquisition skyrocket. Note, FOSS was not even mentioned. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From pia at linux.org.au Fri May 2 09:42:26 2003 From: pia at linux.org.au (Pia Smith) Date: Fri May 2 09:42:26 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <1051837744.22494.3647.camel@fehung> Sorry, just to clarify one point: On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 10:46, Pia Smith wrote: > We have a team of people (headed by Stewart) who are working on what > exact constitution changes need to be made, and we will be presenting > them at the next AGM to sort it all out. Anyone with an interest is > welcome to email him or the committee. The draft of changes will be presented to the membership as per the constitution (21 days notice for a special resolution). We hope to have enough open discussion to make the changes agreeable to everyone, and then have a new improved constitution for next year. Thanks again, -- Pia Smith From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 2 13:22:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 2 13:22:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Fri, 2 May 2003 09:26, Con Zymaris wrote: >...> Ian Loxton wrote: >...> I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat >...> spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is >...> introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. >...> In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: >...> 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about >...> the procurement of computer software for its operations, >...> have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a >...> public authority should use open source software in >...> preference to proprietary software. > Much as I'd like to see free software in widest possible deployment, > I don't believe this approach is the most effective. In essence, I agree. I think I would rather see partisan feather-ruffling legislation than no legislation, given that several proprietary vendors are outstanding in their field for a no-holds-barred no-quarter ends-justify-the-means approach to winning contracts and we have no fair counter to that. I base my approach on the idea that sailing in any direction is a step ahead of being becalmed. However, I'm willing to be convinced that it's a bad idea in this case, since it might be very hard to amend or excise bad legislation because many pollies wouldn't see the need to distinguish and would rather see the problem stay fixed, however badly. > It's also too easy for well leveraged vested interest groups to > (appear) justifiably antagonistic towards. > I would posit that the most effective case to be made in this country > (other countries will need different tactics) is to push for the > following: > > 1) All government bodies should only use technologies for which file > formats and network communication protocols are open and > documented. > 2) Preference should be given to technologies for which there are > multiple vendors, helping better position future government > purchasing tactically and avoiding vendor lock-in and price > gouging. > 3) Preference should be given to technologies for which there is a > case to be made that local industry can benefit, and that import > replacements can be reduced, helping improve our balance of < trade imbalance. Agree all around. How about suggesting an alternative like this: 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about the procurement of computer software for its operations, have regard to these principals: 17A. (1a) a public authority has a moral obligation to strongly prefer technologies and products for which all protocols, structures and formats are completely and accurately documented and that documentation is available to the public without restriction; and 17A. (1b) technologies should be preferred if they are available from multiple independent vendors, and requirements for technologies and products should as far as reasonably possible be laid out in terms of functionality rather than brands or individual products; and 17A. (1c) technologies should be preferred if they include an Australian component, and particularly substantial local creative input, or their adoption would favourably influence Australia's balance of trade. Not sure whether to explicitly state in (1a) that source code counts as implicit documentation, or rely on people having brains in exchange for keeping the wqording simpler. > Note, FOSS was not even mentioned. Aye, no target to shoot at, no zealots to castigate. And any attack will have to be considerably more subtle, especially if we can subtext the discussion of each point with its advantages. Is there such a thing as a comment field for legislation, or do we have to rely on people looking up Hansard or the like? Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's official Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows of a better palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From g at netcraft.com.au Fri May 2 13:41:02 2003 From: g at netcraft.com.au (Geoffrey D. Bennett) Date: Fri May 2 13:41:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:22:40PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > have to be considerably more subtle, especially if we can subtext the > discussion of each point with its advantages. Is there such a thing as > a comment field for legislation, or do we have to rely on people > looking up Hansard or the like? > > Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's official > Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows of a better > palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: If you CC your comments to Andy.Johnstone at parliament.sa.gov.au as well, I'm sure he'd be interested -- it was him who originally contacted me with the draft bill and speech. -- Geoffrey D. Bennett, RHCE, RHCX geoffrey at netcraft.com.au Senior Systems Engineer http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/ NetCraft Australia Pty Ltd http://www.netcraft.com.au/linux/ From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 2 14:05:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 2 14:05:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> References: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> Message-ID: <200305021405.46983.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Fri, 2 May 2003 13:39, Geoffrey D. Bennett wrote: > On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:22:40PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: >> Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's >> official Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows >> of a better palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: > If you CC your comments to Andy.Johnstone at parliament.sa.gov.au as > well, I'm sure he'd be interested -- it was him who originally > contacted me with the draft bill and speech. Ta. I'll re-send him my original message. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 9 15:40:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 9 15:40:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Constitution working group Message-ID: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As you may be aware, there are some (minor) changes that need to be made to the Linux Australia constitution so that LA may function effectively. Any changes to the constitution will require approval at a general meeting (for details of what is required for a general meeting, see the const). I ask anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion about changes to the current constitution to please email me (privately) at stewart at linux.org.au - ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+u1sVFtJC9tN9SokRAnb/AJ4yBoMMKa6SSL22eI0VGRIjvlB55gCZASV4 zMWwPu3UdnFrOLv/Hb497j0= =EuhA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From twtshop3 at sina.com Fri May 9 20:28:02 2003 From: twtshop3 at sina.com (twtshop3) Date: Fri May 9 20:28:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] =?GB2312?B?xOPSqrXEyO28/s7SsO/E49XStb3By6Gj?= Message-ID: <200305091227.h49CQnoj009217@digital.linux.org.au> ...::www.RegLove.com::...
 
 
From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Mon May 12 08:35:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Mon May 12 08:35:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Constitution working group In-Reply-To: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030512100345.64baf736.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> > I ask anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion > about changes to the current constitution to please email me > (privately) at stewart at linux.org.au I'll try again ;-P DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030512/4f7cb24b/attachment.pgp From market at assuredigit.com Tue May 13 00:57:01 2003 From: market at assuredigit.com (A.Lin) Date: Tue May 13 00:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] =?GB2312?B?yc+6o7Ci0OvK/cLrvLzK9dPQz965q8u+?= Message-ID: <200305121656.h4CGtkoj013003@digital.linux.org.au> ?????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????? a. ????????? b. ????????? c. ???????????????????????????? d. ?????ID????????????? e. ??????????????????????????????? f. ??????????????????? g. ADOBE PDF???????????????? h. ?????????????? i. ???????????????? j. ?????????????? ????????????????????????????? === ???????????? Shanghai AssureDigit Technologies Co. Ltd ????: market at assuredigit.com ???http://www.assuredigit.com ??:021-63696077 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/5f292d01/attachment.htm From dstone at kde.org Tue May 13 14:48:02 2003 From: dstone at kde.org (Daniel Stone) Date: Tue May 13 14:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) -- Daniel Stone KDE: Konquering a desktop near you - http://www.kde.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/fa49223a/attachment.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Tue May 13 15:01:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue May 13 15:01:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Daniel, > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only > seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that moment. In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... ;-) -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/6408a819/attachment.pgp From jeremy at austux.net Tue May 13 15:04:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Tue May 13 15:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030513070125.GA26226@austux.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:46:39PM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems > to be a "spokeswoman". ;) Media have a habbit of doing that. They even manage to change the names of organisations. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/3ae9b71f/attachment.pgp From dstone at kde.org Tue May 13 15:07:01 2003 From: dstone at kde.org (Daniel Stone) Date: Tue May 13 15:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only > > seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) > > Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The > Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a > spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her > being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that > moment. > > In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is > The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... Not incorrect per se, but not the full story ... ;) -- Daniel Stone Developer, Trinity College, University of Melbourne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/efd6ba2e/attachment.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 13 15:24:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 13 15:24:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news: trinity In-Reply-To: <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <200305131529.14364.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Tue, 13 May 2003 15:06, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: >>> The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared >>> in The Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia >>> now only seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) >> Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The >> Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a >> spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from >> her being President - it only gives her the role she was >> undertaking at that moment. >> In other words, there is only One God, however in his different >> roles is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... > Not incorrect per se, but not the full story ... ;) Looking at your domain, I guess you would be the one to know. (-: David's definition looks a bit Unitarian to me, or possibly similar to Watchtower's not-really-Trinity style. I've not kept up with these things much lately, I think we've frightened the local Witnesses away. I think something along the lines of the ancient idol, Dagon, would be more appropriate. Dagon was the Sun, but of an evening would hit the Western ocean (presumably with an enormous hiss), turn into a huge fish, swim under the world, and emerge from the Eastern ocean the next morning ready for a full day's shining. In keeping with the dualism common in such religions, the fish was often nominally female. I'm sure we could work something up with Linux running on a Sun box populated with Seagate Barracuda (ie fish) hard drives, but should we? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From kim at linmagau.org Tue May 13 16:05:28 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Tue May 13 16:05:28 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The > Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a > spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her > being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that > moment. > > In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is > The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... Or.. The Mother, The Daughter and The power behind the Throne (although the later is slowly changing :) Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From 0949243815 at pchome.com.tw Tue May 13 18:26:48 2003 From: 0949243815 at pchome.com.tw (0949243815 at pchome.com.tw) Date: Tue May 13 18:26:48 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] 〗DVD紇100じ Message-ID: <200305130642.h4D6gCn25512@ensim.rackshack.net> ???]???G????-?????_??.DVD?v?? http://hocom.51.net/menu/index.htm ??2002?~??DVD?v???s?f?????@??100???? http://hk.geocities.com/hocomdvd2000/dvd-shopping-auction.htm From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 13 21:40:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 13 21:40:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <200305132145.22803.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Tue, 13 May 2003 16:03, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > The Mother, The Daughter and The power behind the Throne > (although the later is slowly changing :) I thought it was the Maiden, the Mother and... the other one? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Thu May 15 11:08:02 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Thu May 15 11:08:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... Message-ID: Hi, A quick follow up on the NOIE thread that started on the list a few weeks back. Below is an extract from the International Herald Tribune, (linked via /.) specifically: http://www.iht.com/articles/96289.html The Microsoft documents also show a sophisticated and complex lobbying program aimed at getting governments on their side. A confidential document titled "Open Source Software Government: World Wide Initiative" outlines the company's lobbying objectives. . One aim, the document says, is to "prevent adoption of procurement policies favoring OSS," or open-source software. Legislators in several European countries, including Denmark, France and Germany, have proposed laws that would encourage or require government offices to adopt open-source software. The article implies that M$ are actually doing what many of us surmised during the NOIE roadtrip, namely " the gathering of market intelligence via being your friend....." Australia is not mentioned specifically, but the general flavour has a familiar ring does it not? Any comments? Rgds Brent Wallis From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 15 11:48:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 15 11:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Some more FUD from SCO: http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsMN4o1yjaOTJg85AQF1Jgf/R5pCVwlJTRPVQHXO3nX++msyjtRuXlT/ bVN4GOkHPjj5Dbi1vXc8oJmD360SZrQrvmt0s52L+7ys/7jFraBNcIMZZZR9BZfT 3ejP1cynndTkT302MIKxP2ydgm6N1IDXfeGcZ1sZOiSF0QUsHlAQhbzxorybV9mA 6uYwhSEHcYZk+IRTkzuzz55RdR1aksfT4Z/Ih5gj3Wv1mB66djUufxGYbDsaGMq8 S8+2cA2ZpN1sQJKcA3SlsCe+dsFGfUONzfZ9ED5FLWtLmWxOoA1KYV7lHdkVu3HZ 649rOnRMcvJnjNoasKhPddQi3jD62NRt6RQjO1gdkITbhdpn8rzyWg== =irAA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 11:50:01 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 11:50:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 13 May 2003 at 16:46:39 +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems > to be a "spokeswoman". ;) This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no offence. A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/11394d06/attachment.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 12:06:02 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 12:06:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> PRESS RELEASE ------------- Santa Cruz Operations - owner of the Unix (tm) Trade Mark - sues Santa Cruz Operations for illegal use of Unix (tm) code in the organisations' OpenLinux distribution... LMAO -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/e0d50711/attachment.pgp From dstone at kde.org Thu May 15 12:54:02 2003 From: dstone at kde.org (Daniel Stone) Date: Thu May 15 12:54:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. > I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice > that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no > offence. Oh, I don't doubt that it was intended, at all. I also have quite some respect for Nathan, and I know he wouldn't do something like that deliberately; just an interesting aside. I actually read the article in dead tree form, then went online and found its URL; it's entirely possible, as you state below, that 'President' only appears online, because I certainly didn't see it in dead-tree, after reading it about 3 times. :) d -- Daniel Stone KDE: Konquering a desktop near you - http://www.kde.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/dcc6cdf9/attachment.pgp From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 13:02:01 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 13:02:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030515050049.GH21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 14:52:55 +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. >> I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice >> that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no >> offence. > > Oh, I don't doubt that it was intended, at all. I also have quite some > respect for Nathan, and I know he wouldn't do something like that > deliberately; just an interesting aside. > > I actually read the article in dead tree form, then went online and > found its URL; it's entirely possible, as you state below, that > 'President' only appears online, because I certainly didn't see it in > dead-tree, after reading it about 3 times. No, it wasn't on the web site either. Nathan has updated it. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/06e14f47/attachment.pgp From jeremy at austux.net Thu May 15 13:04:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Thu May 15 13:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030515050228.GB22686@austux.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often > trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. Hence quotes like: "Ironically, it is the software from Microsoft that helps to run the Internet." I know for a fact that in the article where that appeared, it wasn't put there by the reporter. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia http://www.jabber.org/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/9e404977/attachment.pgp From jmlists at chaoshouse.net Thu May 15 13:06:28 2003 From: jmlists at chaoshouse.net (Jessica Mayo) Date: Thu May 15 13:06:28 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, David Lloyd wrote: > PRESS RELEASE > ------------- > > Santa Cruz Operations - owner of the Unix (tm) Trade Mark - sues Santa > Cruz Operations for illegal use of Unix (tm) code in the organisations' > OpenLinux distribution... It's like that, isn't it? It seems OpenLinux sales didn't increase due to SCO/Caldera being the ones who hold the original X86 SysV Unix licences? I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be uninformed. :) -- Jess (Everything with a grin :) From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 13:16:02 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 13:16:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: References: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Jessica, > I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I > never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be > uninformed. :) The BSD war happened years ago. AT&T decided that it would have a go at the University of California, Berkeley Systems Division about use of Unix (tm) [it was AT&T's at the time] code in the BSD kernel. Eventually these two organisations settled this out of court, if I recall, and BSD released two versions of BSD: * BSD Encumbered - you had to have a Unix (tm) licence * BSD Lite - BSD rewrote all the stuff they had to take out I believe that this was around the time that an operating system called MSDOS appeared. These wars only served to destroy the Unix (tm) market. In my opinion, Unix (tm) is dying anyway ... DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/f30c127a/attachment.pgp From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 15 13:41:02 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 15 13:41:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Greg groggy Lehey said: > This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I > mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice > that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no > offence. > > A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often > trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? :) > Greg > -- > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------- Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com ICQ: 6734154 Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 15 13:48:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 15 13:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030515054721.GV28837@lazarus> > I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, > could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? I would have no problems being in the paper again for a larger grant. ;-) (Report on what I've been doing with the hardware coming in this month's linmagau!) - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "I'm taking no part in your merry 5-way clusterfuck - sort that mess out between yourselves." - Alexander Viro From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 13:51:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 13:51:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Stewart, > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this > scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some > *serious* money?:) /me wants a new Porsche ;-) -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/6f63fdad/attachment.pgp From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 13:57:01 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 13:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030515055534.GI21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 15:47:49 +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: > > Greg groggy Lehey said: > >> This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I >> mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice >> that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no >> offence. >> >> A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often >> trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. > > I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, > could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? > :) Heh, yes, I was wondering about that too. I suspect that part of the intention of the article was to show how you can achieve results with the expenditure of almost nothing. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/16373675/attachment.pgp From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 13:59:02 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 13:59:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030515055712.GJ21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 15:19:58 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Stewart, > >> case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this >> scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some >> *serious* money?:) > > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) They don't work too well. My last one is broken: === grog at wantadilla (/dev/ttypa) /src/vinum 9 -> ping porsche PING porsche.lemis.com (192.109.197.143): 56 data bytes ping: sendto: Host is down ping: sendto: Host is down (etc) ping: sendto: Host is down ^C --- porsche.lemis.com ping statistics --- 20 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/d4ee1836/attachment.pgp From xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au Thu May 15 14:05:01 2003 From: xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Thu May 15 14:05:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:19 PM, David Lloyd wrote: David, > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) What happened to the old one? R > -- > Microbits Linux Technician > > 08 8362 9220 > > - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 ICQ: 76626240 IRC: xf / irc.oublinet.net PH: +61 418 186 604 EQ: Mummer (Bard), Tholuxe In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+wy2mRcxk39PM6wcRAjijAJsE1OD1S5eFkQp/CiYts3ZNCnHPDACfdC5d ilMryliVWXIAkBbFFevd+Fs= =luvA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 14:35:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 14:35:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from David Lloyd of "Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930." <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> dlloyd at microbits.com.au said: >> I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >> never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >> uninformed. :) >> The BSD war happened years ago..... No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 14:38:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 14:38:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20030515160720.22edb3bb.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Jon, > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets > interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. I'm not so sure about that...and it's not entirely true that there are no large companies playing with any of the BSD's either. I'm sure that IBM does for example. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/a484ab7c/attachment.pgp From chris.debenham at sun.com Thu May 15 14:49:01 2003 From: chris.debenham at sun.com (Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer) Date: Thu May 15 14:49:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> What about apple?... Oh wait, you said 'deep' pockets :-) Jon maddog Hall wrote: > dlloyd at microbits.com.au said: > >>>I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >>>never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >>>uninformed. :) > > >>>The BSD war happened years ago..... > > > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets interested > in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. > > md > > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ,-_|\ Systems Engineer - eSun E-mail : chris.debenham at sun.com / \ Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd. Direct : +61 (2) 9844 5188 \_,-\_* 828 Pacific Highway Phone : +61 (2) 9844 5000 v Gordon, N.S.W. 2072 Fax : +61 (2) 9844 5189 Mobile : +61 (40) 9844 514 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!! From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 15 18:47:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 15 18:47:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:49 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) Try a Jag, some of them have PowerPC processors in them and porting Linux to it would be easier due to the fact that Linux already runs on PPC..... :) ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 15 18:49:56 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 15 18:49:56 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515054721.GV28837@lazarus> Message-ID: <93738755-86C1-11D7-908B-00039346F142@mac.com> On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:47 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I would have no problems being in the paper again for a larger grant. > ;-) > > (Report on what I've been doing with the hardware coming in this > month's > linmagau!) That's great, hope we can help the GNOME project further. I seem to be further impressed with every update. I'm starting to get a big warm and fuzzy feeling about how the grants scheme is going :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 15 20:14:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 15 20:14:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 4:37 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets > interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. I believe that SCO is bound by the 1994 settlement between USL Inc (then owned by Novell) and UCB which released BSD 4.4 Lite as completely unencumbered. I don't think even SCO would be dumb enough to try and reopen a lawsuit when it's already been settled that the BSD 4.4 Lite release was unencumbered. I believe that all the BSD's (including BSDI, if they are still going) are based on BSD 4.4 Lite. Chris (bought the t-shirt, literally :-)) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsODmI1yjaOTJg85AQHhVAgAmEA9vBLbt225ST/07dc7DxzF2zE+WUTo t6Qt8AOGPLNgovWulzmyEIUvp+m2gSG3ZybXeMB2Rxa14ZZWzaBvd/I12uWwvvEY KbTBguSZTNC/XGj1X4dDQ73FZEB6hhcoIDeBVJmVyRx7WwO50nBia/GaWgoo0Cxn hdnNR42j1D6Qr1WAOFakSheK5y1UlZ/dDoBuwwoq4VCmDYv9shEMPSZ9SX8je3kS g+WHGZp2HhUubnfRY0dG8RWCYFEkd3uDnnz4DvKmXmEZ+0e6Qj5VASeRWzM8h9H2 tag3poxr5kY8UxKU/3hMx+wnhwizF5yZ0lpV3oQA/Ps1SnSJyrrCCQ== =x+5O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 20:58:02 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 20:58:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from David Lloyd of "Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930." <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <200305151300.h4FD0fmn001319@localhost.localdomain> dlloyd at microbits.com.au said: > I'm not so sure about that...and it's not entirely true that there are > no large companies playing with any of the BSD's either. I'm sure that > IBM does for example. Even if IBM is "playing with any of the BSD's", they have not stated that BSD is part of their strategic future the same way they have with Linux. If they had, then SCO would be going after BSD the same way. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:01:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 15 21:01:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47, Chris Samuel wrote: > Some more FUD from SCO: > http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:03:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 15 21:03:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305152102.25927.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:03, Ryan Verner wrote: > On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:19 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> /me wants a new Porsche ;-) > What happened to the old one? Physics, in the form of a tree? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:04:39 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 15 21:04:39 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> Message-ID: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > What about apple?... Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 21:07:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 21:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Samuel of "Thu, 15 May 2003 22:10:00 +1000." <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> SCO's current suit is based on code getting into Linux that arrived AFTER all the AT&T hubbub. Their claim is that "unprofessional programmers" did not check the sources of their code, and therefore there are pieces of code that arrived (through the kernel and the libraries) that belong to SCO. Whether this is true or not does not stop a suit from happening. Trust me, if the BSDs were seen as likely to snuff out the commercial AT&T code stream and royalties, then SCO would be suing BSD just to see what they could get out of it, whether or not there was any legal relevance. Here in the USA, you sue first, and ask questions later. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From jeremy at austux.net Thu May 15 21:20:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Thu May 15 21:20:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20030515131858.GC25602@austux.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 09:06:55AM -0400, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > Here in the USA, you sue first, and ask questions later. In some cases it's the same here. Public liability insurance has gone through the roof as of recent years. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia There are 10 types of people - those who understand binary and those who don't. From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 21:23:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 21:23:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from Leon Brooks of "Thu, 15 May 2003 21:03:33 +0800." <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> >Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Actually, when Sun got the System V code, it was my understanding that they ripped it apart, and worked very hard to make it a decent operating system, replacing a good deal of the kernel code, and basically just keeping the system call interfaces. The port of Sun's customers from SunOS to Solaris (often called Slowaris in the early days) was one of the low points of Sun's history. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From lesbell at lesbell.com.au Fri May 16 06:54:01 2003 From: lesbell at lesbell.com.au (Les Bell) Date: Fri May 16 06:54:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: Leon Brooks wrote: >> After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? << You think it's confusing - imagine how *I* feel: I do work under contract for IBM, I'm a Caldera OpenLearning certified Master Instructor, and worst of all, I'm a SCO shareholder. I would have dumped the stock ages ago, except for some US IRS paperwork I forgot to file with eTrade, and now the stock is worth so little, it's worth more to me to hold onto it for the dubious satisfaction of being a disgusted SCO shareholder. I don't think SCO has a friend in the world, at this point. I know companies who have migrated from SCO unix to Linux (specifically, Red Hat), and I'll bet some of their biggest customers, who were undoubtedly considering the same move, have brought forward their planning. With respect to their statements of the last few days: I've never seen an entire corporation foaming at the mouth before. Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au] From president at linux.org.au Fri May 16 06:57:10 2003 From: president at linux.org.au (Pia Smith) Date: Fri May 16 06:57:10 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> Hi all, As per our new Grant Scheme here is application number two :) Please see bottom of email for committee comments: -----Forwarded Message----- From: Kimberly Shelt To: committee at linux.org.au, pia at linux.org.au Subject: [LACTTE] Application Date: 08 May 2003 15:59:54 +1000 As per the guidelines please find below an application for contributioni/supporting funds from LA to LinMagAU. *** Date: 7th March 2003 Project Name: LinmagAU.org Aim of Project: :Continue on line magazine production (currently monthly edition) :Investigate ability to move to fortnightly editions :Create proto-type hard copy for distribution throughout LUGS (within 3 months) General Aims: :Promote various Linux/OSS/Community related projects/people within Australia :Encourage penetration of both Linux/OSS knowledge and usage within the computing community. Person Responsible for Request: Kimberly Shelt (kim at linmagau.org) Request: : $200 per month : $? per click through (Upper limit per month) (On line) On going hosting and bandwidth charges. Associated costs (ie telephone) for contact with vendors/advertisers, authors and other contributors. (Hard Copy) Purchase of paper, printing needs, industrial stapler etc (for inhouse build) Printing costs for front page (professional cover) Associated costs (ie telephone, postage) for contact with LUGS/distribution, advertisers, authors and other contributors. --------------------------------------- Currently the magazine is running banner advertising for many organisations at no cost.. the suggestion of $? being paid per click through on the banners has been raised. Stats for the current edition Linux Australia home page Views 3644 Clicks 12 Linux Australia users groups page Views 3770 Clicks 12 This month has been the busiest so far, 300% improvement on last month, with many stories being taken up by large on line news sites, including the on line IT spaces of SMH & The Age. We have been approached by several LUGS, organisations and companies with regards to banner advertising, and general support and in the coming weeks will be investigating either "charged advertising" or "tiered sponsorship" Currently we received consistent support (by way of links to articles) from the following : LinuxToday, LWN, SMH & The Age (on line) and usually something in Slashdot. Some sites that have linked to the mag over the last few months::debian, osnews, (several) KDE sites, pclinuxonline, openbsd sites, whist many of these sites are "overseas" based, the number of members (with .au or .nz mailing addresses) joining the site outweighs others. It is obvious we are reaching a fair proportion of users, a small group of "small business" etc, however I do not think we have as yet tapped the vendor area :). which of course is my next foray :) ** Thanks Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org _______________________________________________ The committee have discussed this and we'd like to go ahead for several reasons: - linmagau fills the community newspaper role. It provides a service and a community focused hub of information. We believe with a little more support it will prove to be an excellent resource. - Linux Australia benefits directly, as we have a banner on linmagau that receives click throughs every month. We should support those that support us. Ammendments: - $200 per month only (click-through incentive encourages Linux Australia banners all over the place :) so we're not as keen on this) If anyone disagrees with this then please post within the next two weeks, or we will assume it is accepted by the membership, and go ahead. Positive comments are welcome too :) Thanks and regards, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Fri May 16 07:49:02 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Fri May 16 07:49:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: Hi, Les Bell said: >I know companies who have migrated from SCO unix to Linux (specifically, Red Hat), >and I'll bet some of their biggest customers, who were undoubtedly >considering the same move, have brought forward their planning. We deal in the SME sector, and have consulted on quite a few jobs in the last 24 months doing what you describe.... ie: Open Server -> RH Linux, Unixware -> RH Linux One particular upbeat (for us at least) move from RedHat in the last few weeks has been the release of the AS, ES, WS systems set, which has enabled us to approach the core ISV we resell an ERP package for, in order to encourage them to support their product on Linux. For this particular ISV, the idea of an extended support cycle has appeal. The ISV in question are conservative to say the least,and our lobbying has been long and hard ... we were almost there..... But the latest SCO move could kill all the hard work. The ISV is already a little edgy about the change required, the thought of the platform being subverted (albeit a distant maybe) will probably make them wait even longer before committing. In a tough IT market, who can blame them. Herein lies the problem for us at least. Could it be that this move was intended to scare the ISV sector as well? If it was, they have damn well gone a long way to achieving it in my small neck of the planet. (grr, where did I put my knee pads....;-) BW From chris.debenham at sun.com Fri May 16 07:57:01 2003 From: chris.debenham at sun.com (Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer) Date: Fri May 16 07:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <3EC428F0.3090201@sun.com> Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > >>What about apple?... > > > Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: > > Cheers; Leon > SunOS was BSD-derived, but Solaris is System V derived. But even so we previously bought complete UNIX IP rights from SCOs predecessors (perpetual license and all that) so we can make/ship derivative products without issue. /me dons flame-proof suit If you want a platform safe from IP issues don't forget Solaris x86 :-) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ,-_|\ Systems Engineer - eSun E-mail : chris.debenham at sun.com / \ Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd. Direct : +61 (2) 9844 5188 \_,-\_* 828 Pacific Highway Phone : +61 (2) 9844 5000 v Gordon, N.S.W. 2072 Fax : +61 (2) 9844 5189 Mobile : +61 (40) 9844 514 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!! From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 08:05:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 08:05:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Pia, > - $200 per month only (click-through incentive encourages Linux > Australia banners all over the place :) so we're not as keen on this) > > If anyone disagrees with this then please post within the next two > weeks, or we will assume it is accepted by the membership, and go > ahead. Positive comments are welcome too :) How about: $200 per month with a [half-yearly | yearly | some time period] review ..that is to say I think we should either : 1) set an explicit date at which the sponsorship stops - I don't like that idea 2) set a date or time period to review the sponsorship Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? We probably should ask all those we sponsor to provide some type of summary of how they've used the sponsorship so that we can explain to our members and the public what we're doing and supporting. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/24e01c7b/attachment.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 08:12:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 08:12:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: References: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516094046.51d50c5b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Stewart, > Try a Jag, some of them have PowerPC processors in them and porting > Linux to it would be easier due to the fact that Linux already runs on On the subject of cars, a guy called Toby Corkindale who used to live in Adelaide managed to get a Commodore car speaking to his Linux laptop: * http://www.linuxsa.org.au/mailing-list/2002-03/220.html ..his e-mail is different now though. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/f6d3115e/attachment.pgp From kim at linmagau.org Fri May 16 09:08:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Fri May 16 09:08:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 09:33:46AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > How about: > $200 per month with a [half-yearly | yearly | some time period] review > ..that is to say I think we should either : > > 1) set an explicit date at which the sponsorship stops > - I don't like that idea > > 2) set a date or time period to review the sponsorship I am ok with either.. also it occurs to me that I didn't include in the application, something about "if the mag folds" I promise not to keep taking the money. :) of course this is not going to happen because so many people are going to read this, and put up their hands to help :) > > Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how > she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? > > We probably should ask all those we sponsor to provide some type of > summary of how they've used the sponsorship so that we can explain to > our members and the public what we're doing and supporting. Shame on you you didn't read the LA update in the mag this month did you :) http://www.linmagau.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=88&page=2 The applicant must: (Points 5,6,7) Be responsible for supplying Linux Australia with any necessary receipts Provide Linux Australia with a brief report as to how the project went, results, etc Be responsible for updating the project page with how the funds were used (this is to come) Thanks LA Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 09:42:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 09:42:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030516111036.4324629f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Kim, > Shame on you you didn't read the LA update in the mag this month did > you :) Oh behave...the Palantir was malfunctioning at the time. All I could dial was a picture of some guy's "Eye" :( -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/19d58955/attachment.pgp From grog at lemis.com Fri May 16 09:44:27 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 16 09:44:27 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 22:10:00 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 15 May 2003 4:37 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >> No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The >> real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets >> interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. > > I believe that SCO is bound by the 1994 settlement between USL Inc > (then owned by Novell) and UCB which released BSD 4.4 Lite as > completely unencumbered. > > I don't think even SCO would be dumb enough to try and reopen a > lawsuit when it's already been settled that the BSD 4.4 Lite release > was unencumbered. More to the point, SCO (well, Caldera at the time) released all precursors to BSD, including notably Research UNIX up to the Seventh Edition, and also 32V, under a BSD license on 20 January 2002. As a result, BSD is no longer encumbered. See http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ for more details. Yes, it's a pity they don't have it on their own web site, but there's no doubt in anybody's minds (except possibly SCO's new lawyers) that it happened. > I believe that all the BSD's (including BSDI, if they are still > going) are based on BSD 4.4 Lite. Correct. And yes, BSD[Ii] isn't completely dead yet. It belongs to Wind River Systems. On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 9:06:55 -0400, Jon Maddog Hall wrote: > > Trust me, if the BSDs were seen as likely to snuff out the > commercial AT&T code stream and royalties, then SCO would be suing > BSD just to see what they could get out of it, whether or not there > was any legal relevance. Absolutely. That was the background for the BSDI lawsuit ten years ago. On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 21:00:59 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47, Chris Samuel wrote: >> Some more FUD from SCO: > >> http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 > > After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the > hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. > > I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? I think it's pretty clear that SCO's sales model for Linux didn't work. The real reason for the suspension is almost certainly that it wasn't selling, but by stating these reasons they can gain more credibility in their lawsuit. I must say that this particular lawsuit has reached a level of stupidity which far exceeds anything I've seen before. The stock market doesn't, though. Take a look at http://ir.sco.com/stock.cfm for one good reason for the lawsuit. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/727429eb/attachment.pgp From grog at lemis.com Fri May 16 09:47:02 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 16 09:47:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516014320.GZ21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 14:44:42 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Jessica, > >> I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >> never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >> uninformed. :) > > The BSD war happened years ago. AT&T decided that it would have a go at > the University of California, Berkeley Systems Division about use of > Unix (tm) [it was AT&T's at the time] code in the BSD kernel. No, the suit was initially filed against BSDI. They brought in UCB (which had a significant law school; what idiots) shortly before settlement was reached. I don't see this as a coincidence. The time frame was 1992 to 1994. > Eventually these two organisations settled this out of court, if I > recall, and BSD CSRG > released two versions of BSD: > > I believe that this was around the time that an operating system > called MSDOS appeared. These wars only served to destroy the Unix > (tm) market. No, MS-DOS appeared in 1981. At the time, 4BSD was in the early development stages. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/592a8a85/attachment.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 09:52:24 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 09:52:24 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Greg, > I must say that this particular lawsuit has reached a level of > stupidity which far exceeds anything I've seen before. The stock > market doesn't, though. Take a look at http://ir.sco.com/stock.cfm > for one good reason for the lawsuit. But the stock market is rarely "sane". This sounds like the lull before the storm...at the moment everyone's holding onto their SCO shares to see what's happening...and then suddenly...WHOOSH...and everyone goes: "Oh !@#$ - they _are_ going down the gurgler...let's all sell"... *sigh* We do realise that "S" stands for "Stupid". DSL (1) Maybe SCO could be as their first name's sake and just GIVE us the damned code for Christmas. -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/53ce3c26/attachment.pgp From michaeld at senet.com.au Fri May 16 10:19:02 2003 From: michaeld at senet.com.au (michaeld at senet.com.au) Date: Fri May 16 10:19:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <1053051492.3ec44a64c01c7@webmail.senet.com.au> Quoting David Lloyd : > (1) Maybe SCO could be as their first name's sake and just GIVE us the > damned code for Christmas. Perhaps it's really the Satan Cruise Organisation. -- Michael Davies Linux.Conf.Au Adelaide Jan 12-17 2004 michaeld [at] senet.com.au Australia's Premier Linux Conference mirky on irc http://lca2004.linux.org.au ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through SE Net Webmail http://webmail.senet.com.au From andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au Fri May 16 15:11:02 2003 From: andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au (Andrew Cowie) Date: Fri May 16 15:11:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> [This is *not* a M$ bashing story] On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 13:06, Brent Wallis wrote: > The Microsoft documents also show a sophisticated and > complex lobbying program aimed at getting governments > on their side. In related news, those of you who watch Google News will have seen a link to this story: http://www.internetwk.com/breakingNews/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=10000073 Its a bit to the effect that, in the case of *large* government and educational contracts, Microsoft may be ready to offer their software for free when the competition is "low-cost or zero-cost". This isn't likely to become their mass market approach any time soon (certainly not in the commercial sector!) but I thought it was interesting that Microsoft is responding to the one striking argument that Free and Open Source alternatives offer - the free part. I only bring this up in the context of continuing points raised by Jeff Waugh and others: we have to compete on the quality of our actions [products], not our rhetoric. So to all the developers out there, keep up the good work. Of course, this could be nothing more than a trial balloon, or a trial toilet. AfC [What on earth were they thinking: Portable Internet Enabled Toilets? Is that so like you can log on while, er, laying a log? If you don't know what I'm talking about, see http://www.web-user.co.uk/news/article/?afw_source_key=%7b5BF50883-41F4-4CF3-9F76-83A761DBF3CC%7d Brings a new meaning to clogging up the network. iLoo. Now THAT's a product that has Open Source potential :) I can see it now: http://linux.conf.loo ] -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:37:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 16 15:37:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: > > No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch > to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Actually, when Sun got > the System V code, it was my understanding that they ripped it apart, and > worked very hard to make it a decent operating system, replacing a good > deal of the kernel code, and basically just keeping the system call > interfaces. My understanding was one of the major reasons that Sun went System V for Solaris was for the SMP scalability. Apparently SunOS's MP didn't quite cut it. > The port of Sun's customers from SunOS to Solaris (often called Slowaris in > the early days) was one of the low points of Sun's history. Yeah, I remember getting 4.1.3_u1 and then being extremely happy to receive 4.1.4 and hoping that Sun would get the message and a 4.1.5 would appear. Oh well, at least now there's a variety of Linux and *BSD's for their hardware. :-) Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSTW41yjaOTJg85AQE2mgf/ZNRr62d3ReS93V3rkaFVdONwXOBDrKHb mW9nFbsTEZjHxiv4o10iA0XZ17aPm4P8bSYhDusfMHmTYffeVCrEOAizMmQtz7i6 FqCUFCBosSt0zYwZ6WHlOiZbJ+lK4vZE078ocGuWr7AxEJqYjJlzOGK07L4aSW0r tdTejWZBhr8mdqjcFRlKkErNmBq1xJEGykBtN3T/+Pmz3fAd2XdOoP4ussAtK6VM 15H7Fj3pjfjOQaqGHi0NFoYIQrOT6INpoFd/dJCTloM7j4/JLZ1dRlnj8bbfKJDf YpiW4eu0SBmFyovVBDvmMMwMS3txRiyngQvpQx/KaSSSBMTRi9n2Cg== =CgLa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:38:46 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 16 15:38:46 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <200305161726.26735.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:03 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > > What about apple?... > > Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: No, SunOS was, but Solaris is SysV based. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSSoY1yjaOTJg85AQGuWAgAwgUD/NajEPujM9KceJKA6+sx1tOjLnk8 5HU4ekVGfYorp+gm3DsQsBcDOuxrludyCXTDdRlmIAzlTOtJfd2Q/vFF/D0riDbu hCo32Yee0kCAbfOKmXWAlt+51NPBsFW03G2VQXTqq9VuUirh8NfdupJdIFJA5H5X wFVfIALLAy6CVa2DjMriUCN97/Gbf3JiHtxdWfXhLyd4vo3zRIIl3CEa+zmgcreC KB2xw5FttTKubywI31hNJUqwiKLgFjpRa52yK8HcUr51OtIMs+TAbJcodUQ/ex/S xAkAO7LawpZ9fogVEHzW8FIyaC3B84V2faXNvcseJDQVzD3aRKHmbA== =BwnP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeremy at austux.net Fri May 16 15:43:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Fri May 16 15:43:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 09:33:46AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how > she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? Is Linuxmagau incorporated or planning to incorporate? Perhaps a project of this scale should form an incorporated association and then that can receive the funds, and the association when then have to produce an annual report. Of course linuxmagau could also be setup to be considered part of Linux Australia and a financial report could still be required. Either way it's probably also a good idea to ensure anyone working with linuxmagau is covered, either by limited liability or insurance. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/e7262caa/attachment.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:49:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 16 15:49:02 2003 Subject: MS iLoo an unoriginal hoax (was Re: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back....) In-Reply-To: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> References: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200305161748.41523.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Friday 16 May 2003 5:09 pm, Andrew Cowie wrote: > [What on earth were they thinking: Portable Internet Enabled Toilets? Is > that so like you can log on while, er, laying a log? If you don't know > what I'm talking about, see http://www.web-user.co.uk/news/?mod_article_id={14909A49-E9CF-407E-BE67-EBAD678A8B4C}&mod_article_show_only= [start quote] But according to US news sources, Microsoft US has apologised for the joke and said it was an April Fool's gag circulated by their UK counterparts. Presumably the company forgot this was on 1 April and not 30 April when the press release was issued. A spokeswoman for Microsoft told US news channel CBS News: "This iLoo release came out of the UK office and was not a Microsoft sanctioned communication and we apologise for any confusion or offence it may have caused." There's also further embarrassment for MSN. According to the Inquirer website, British inventor Andrew Cubitt claims he designed and made an internet toilet two years ago, which made an appearance at the Ideal Home Show. [end quote] To see Andrew's invention, which printed onto toilet paper (about right for some websites out there!), see: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9442 and the webpage for it at the UK Ideal Home Show 2003: http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/content/attractions/content.asp?location=32 No details about what OS it used though.. :-) I still prefer the Internet Chopping Board: http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/content/attractions/content.asp?location=26 (These are not late April Fools) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSXyo1yjaOTJg85AQEKnwf/acQMXu5ODyVEkTNxDkd4RI+uPCq4SylS MrCIs8DkZMzwOGZGNGEHorSvuXTDanmOQJ/bn2PIcBfhKxtCYYVfqje2V9QX6/q4 BpdHnCHHRqh5DF8eOi7PzWqbfdp2cS/jRa8Lz+PO2gOTI9nA9EBc9qCB+5Lz29/T iJNW7pwDUjXb+ua2n/vG69VgRcymgrcHfyuqc6YXTlCl5/MVdwRMdKR5LOMIy/eb 3K5yDmb5+ufiUDnBOPxMnLAI2oGbSqgE7uImJaqnIPVXYOWT6GK4NI7GNTKHBnop aeORhB41OR+1Ht1BmYbXqz2Tfl7zCbc2deQ8uzuYdLUGufN47yLWfA== =kSye -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kim at linmagau.org Fri May 16 16:39:01 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Fri May 16 16:39:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> Message-ID: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> Hi Jeremy/all, On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 05:41:53PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > Is Linuxmagau incorporated or planning to incorporate? Perhaps a > project of this scale should form an incorporated association and then > that can receive the funds, and the association when then have to > produce an annual report. Of course linuxmagau could also be setup to > be considered part of Linux Australia and a financial report could still > be required. Either way it's probably also a good idea to ensure anyone > working with linuxmagau is covered, either by limited liability or > insurance. Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) I am not sure what sort of liability you mean? Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) the authors are all single entities, not bound to LinMagAu in anyway, nor is LinMagAU to the authors.. we run a standard copyright at the footer of the pages.. ** All logos,trademarks, articles, photographs and comments are property of the respective owner/s where shown. All other is property of linmagau.org. For questions regards Copyright, email legal at linmagau.org or the respective owners of the article concerned. ** When I am writing articles using others words, I always get permission first if someone who submits an article does not, the copyright I think covers this? I am not sure LinMagAU as an entity is liable for any action ? I would be grateful for any feedback on this if someone knows better. What sort of insurance do you mean ? Right now the mag is created by me (with the terrific assistance from the authors of the stories) but from my house.. I am not about to sue myself for stubbing my toe on the bed end :) Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. (with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. I have started the process to register a business name so that we can open a bank account..and as per the Linux Australia requirements for the sponsorship/support, LinMagAu will be accounting directly to LA for the use of this money. Any suggestions are always great. Thanks Kimberly Shelt From jeremy at austux.net Fri May 16 18:43:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Fri May 16 18:43:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 06:37:57PM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) Whoops :) > I am not sure what sort of liability you mean? > Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) The only problem with this is that if someone for any reason decides to sue LinMagAU then the onus falls back on you. As a result you could loose your house or any property. One way to solve that is with incorporation, another way is with insurance (could be costly). Alternatively you could probably do it so that LinMagAU becomes part of Linux Australia. > Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may > be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. > (with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). > So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. Yep, well the only thing with incorporation is that you have to follow certain rules and comply with the Act. Though apart from that it's very cheap to do (in Victoria it costs $60 to register which is cheaper than registering a business name) and not too hard to do. The hardest part can perhaps be getting the people together, you need at least five members (though that may vary from state to state), though usually more since in most states the model rules seem to require about six committee members. I'm in the process of setting up an incorporated association so if you ever do need any help with that do feel free to ask me (though the laws will probably differ in other states). -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ From kim at linmagau.org Fri May 16 19:01:27 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Fri May 16 19:01:27 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> Message-ID: <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 08:42:11PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 06:37:57PM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > > Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) > > Whoops :) NP :) > The only problem with this is that if someone for any reason decides to > sue LinMagAU then the onus falls back on you. As a result you could > loose your house or any property. One way to solve that is with > incorporation, another way is with insurance (could be costly). > Alternatively you could probably do it so that LinMagAU becomes part of > Linux Australia. > Good points :).. although I think my debts outweight my assets right now :) > > Yep, well the only thing with incorporation is that you have to follow > certain rules and comply with the Act. Though apart from that it's very > cheap to do (in Victoria it costs $60 to register which is cheaper than > registering a business name) and not too hard to do. The hardest part > can perhaps be getting the people together, you need at least five > members (though that may vary from state to state), though usually more > since in most states the model rules seem to require about six committee > members. > > I'm in the process of setting up an incorporated association so if you > ever do need any help with that do feel free to ask me (though the laws > will probably differ in other states). Excellent.. as in other mail directly to you, Thanks Jeremy, I shall do some investigation over this side of the country, and get in contact :) Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? I think we can take this part of the thread off line, and all those who are interested in assisting, let me know via email :) Thanks Jeremy. Regards Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org > > -- > Jeremy Lunn > Melbourne, Australia > Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From tony at linuxworks.com.au Fri May 16 19:36:02 2003 From: tony at linuxworks.com.au (Tony Nugent) Date: Fri May 16 19:36:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: message-id <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> of Thu, May 15 13:47:46 2003 Message-ID: <200305161135.h4GBZ0pu016932@gandalf.linuxworks.com.au.nospam> On Thu May 15 2003 at 13:47, Chris Samuel wrote: > Some more FUD from SCO: > > http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 These URLs may be of interest for those looking for more information about this very sad story: The SCO Complaint http://www.sco.com/scosource/complaint3.06.03.html OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint (Eric Raymond) http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html UNIX is free! (Subject: Liberal license for ancient UNIX sources) (23 Jan 2002) http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ Are Linux Users Infringing on SCO's Property? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-01-23-023-26-NW-CD-LL SCO Group On the Licensing Warpath? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-03-03-010-26-NW-CD-LL Has SCO Fired Volley to Start Linux Legal War? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-13-009-26-NW-CD-LL OSOpinion.com: Linux' New Worst Enemy http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-12-007-26-OP-CD-LL A look at the SCO complaint http://lwn.net/Articles/24747/ SCO sues Big Blue over Unix, Linux | CNET News.com http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html SCO vs IBM http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html SCO vs Linux http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-03-07-011-26-NW-CD-LL SCO to enforce its intellectual property in Linux world (Jan 23 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,77815,00.html SCO sues IBM for $1B in intellectual property fight (Mar 7 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,79153,00.html SCO warns commercial Linux users of potential 'legal liability' (May 14 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0%2c10801%2c81235%2c00.html Cheers Tony From jdub at perkypants.org Sat May 17 01:32:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Sat May 17 01:32:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing association). - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "And up in the corporate box there's a group of pleasant thirtysomething guys making tuneful music for the masses of people who can spell 'nihilism', but don't want to listen to it in the car." - Richard Jinman, SMH From grog at lemis.com Sat May 17 10:38:02 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat May 17 10:38:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 16 May 2003 at 17:29:31 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >>> Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: >> >> No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch >> to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Well, in fact they adopted the term Solaris at the time. Solaris 1 was the complete package round the (BSD-based) SunOS 4 kernel. Solaris 2 was the complete package round the (System V.4-based) SunOS 5 kernel. And note that System V.4 has just about the complete 4.3BSD sources in it. The file system was UFS, for example. >> Actually, when Sun got the System V code, it was my understanding >> that they ripped it apart, and worked very hard to make it a decent >> operating system, replacing a good deal of the kernel code, and >> basically just keeping the system call interfaces. They certainly did a lot of work on it, but SunOS 5.2 (Solaris 2.2) was still very recognizably System V.4. > My understanding was one of the major reasons that Sun went System V > for Solaris was for the SMP scalability. Apparently SunOS's MP > didn't quite cut it. I haven't heard that, but most of the SMP work on SunOS 5 was done by Sun, not by AT&T. It's possible that System V.4 was a better basis to start working on. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030517/810e9523/attachment.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Sat May 17 14:04:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Sat May 17 14:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305171600.51832.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Saturday 17 May 2003 11:33 am, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 16 May 2003 at 17:29:31 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >> > >> No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to > >> switch to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). > > Well, in fact they adopted the term Solaris at the time. Solaris 1 > was the complete package round the (BSD-based) SunOS 4 kernel. Now, if my memory is correct, that was kind of reverse engineered onto SunOS after Solaris was announced wasn't it ? Aha - found an official Sun Solaris release history which says that Solaris 1.0 was actually SunOS 4.1.1 Rev. B, a little over a year before Solaris 2.0 was released. http://jp.sun.com/software/solaris/history/ SunOS 4.1.1 and previous was just called SunOS. [...] > I haven't heard that, but most of the SMP work on SunOS 5 was done by > Sun, not by AT&T. It's possible that System V.4 was a better basis to > start working on. It looks like that, from the Solaris Transistion Guide at: http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/805-3864/6j3lvpage?a=view Although the foundation of the Solaris operating environment is based on SVR4, Sun has added extensive functionality in areas such as symmetric multiprocessing with multithreads, real-time functionality, increased security, and improved system administration. and why it's better than SunOS for SMP http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/805-3864/6j3lvpaka?a=view Under the SunOS release 4.x software, only one processor could be in the kernel at any one time. This was accomplished by using a master lock around the entire kernel. When a processor wanted to execute kernel code, it would acquire the lock (excluding other processors from running the code protected by the lock) and it would release the lock when it finished. The Solaris 7 kernel is multithreaded. Instead of one master lock, there are many smaller locks that protect smaller regions of code. For example, there may be a kernel lock that protects access to a particular vnode, and one that protects an inode. Only one processor can be running code dealing with that vnode at a time, but another could be accessing an inode. This allows a greater amount of concurrency. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsXQDY1yjaOTJg85AQGwlAf7B+7nON3PMEv7l6LAVvWWU8/fTdxpDqhB M2a9M/QJayPq4Aegpz0LnARUTYC5JPYa1sP85/cazeXIF59JgVF6lvLIUB1PhUrx vmAz5NLH4xUpXMjCK9zrzrmCiQ8mi/+cl7NVVBU+euOkgLi42VuLcKIX0OBrD4z3 82NfdbOOsjK7lrqUgl645lANmt70L69Qn5RDMPmckXJ3Z+nqZkmebZinW4DUnKkw 74OgdsWWIYydF0GNMmDWm7du0FkJzbA4q8ZBu3c9X+K8NISTNzPWFvA7JA55MHxD hqM3c/T4uTl0zmvpbJQyQeMLTWv3nQbAERtLaLU7lTzJ5FWTDoFKHA== =O7Tr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kim at linmagau.org Sat May 17 23:09:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Sat May 17 23:09:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > association). Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? What are the benefits? LA Committe..can you help here? I think there are lots of pros & cons.. intersted to hear others thoughts? Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au Sat May 17 23:25:01 2003 From: dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au (Dai_Thai NGUYEN) Date: Sat May 17 23:25:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > > association). > > Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? > > What are the benefits? > > LA Committe..can you help here? > > I think there are lots of pros & cons.. intersted to hear others thoughts? > > Kim > -- > http://www.linmagau.org > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > Do we really need a LA Committee? The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders this in my opinion. What would they do anyway? Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this work? Binh. From jdub at perkypants.org Sat May 17 23:52:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Sat May 17 23:52:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> > Do we really need a LA Committee? As Linux Australia, Inc. is an incorporated association, yes, we do. > The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to > be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders > this in my opinion. Why so? Most major Open Source projects have incorporated associations backing them up with the 'real world' stuff (ie. money). Debian (SPI), Apache (Apache Foundation), GNOME (GNOME Foundation), etc. Generally, these organisations are explicitly designed to be independent of development issues. That said, there is a natural heirarchy in most functioning Open Source / Free Software projects regardless of legal issues such as incorporation. > What would they do anyway? s/would/do... They carry out the objectives of the organisation: http://linux.org.au/org/ > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this > work? The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. However, don't be under the impression that 'proper' FOSS projects are in any way democratic. Most are powerfully non-democratic. - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Of course i can see iso-8859-1 characters, I'm French." - Christian Marillat From dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au Sun May 18 00:18:02 2003 From: dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au (Dai_Thai NGUYEN) Date: Sun May 18 00:18:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Do we really need a LA Committee? > > As Linux Australia, Inc. is an incorporated association, yes, we do. > > > The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to > > be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders > > this in my opinion. > > Why so? Most major Open Source projects have incorporated associations > backing them up with the 'real world' stuff (ie. money). Debian (SPI), > Apache (Apache Foundation), GNOME (GNOME Foundation), etc. Generally, these > organisations are explicitly designed to be independent of development > issues. > > That said, there is a natural heirarchy in most functioning Open Source / > Free Software projects regardless of legal issues such as incorporation. I suppose this has something to do with my upbringing. I've never really trusted beureaucrats/politicians and I doubt that I ever will. Even when I have been involved in administration/management I've found that internal bickering between contrasting personalities leads to counter productivity. Anyway, as long as it works. > > What would they do anyway? > > s/would/do... They carry out the objectives of the organisation: > > http://linux.org.au/org/ That's one heck of a constitution. I saw that members were supposed to meet regularly. Who would pay for travel? > > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this > > work? > The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. Could you please tell me who votes for them? > However, don't be under the impression that 'proper' FOSS projects are in > any way democratic. Most are powerfully non-democratic. > > - Jeff > > -- > GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ > > "Of course i can see iso-8859-1 characters, I'm French." - Christian > Marillat > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From jdub at perkypants.org Sun May 18 05:11:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Sun May 18 05:11:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: References: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030517210835.GC19724@lazarus> > > The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. > > Could you please tell me who votes for them? The membership. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "2.4.1ac17 is full of innovations and should be used with caution." - Linux Weekly News From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Sun May 18 06:18:01 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Sun May 18 06:18:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> Ummm... > Do we really need a LA Committee? I am going to put my ballerina shoes and do pirouettes. Mind you pointing you at: * http://www.linux.org.au/org/constitution.phtml ...is probably more helpful. > The beauty of Linux is its ability > to allow people from any background to be able to contribute is it > not? In what way does Linux Australia (Inc) detract from this? > Having a hierarchal structure hinders this in my opinion. What > would they do anyway? Not being an incorporated entity--and therefore a legal nobody--is worse. Organisations can work well with a committee. The best thing about committees is that you generally have at least five to seven people who ensure things get done. This can also turn into you have five to seven people who get to do everything because noone else is willing to help. > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic > vote? But then who counts the votes? And what if a consensus can't be found? Damn, someone would have to adjudicate the results. But that's too hierarchical isn't it. > How would this work? Like it has been... DSL -- Sing a new song, chiquitita! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030518/0454da65/attachment.pgp From jeremy at austux.net Sun May 18 10:56:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Sun May 18 10:56:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 01:08:04AM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? There'd be no details on it per say, though the majority of LA committee would have to agree on it. > What are the benefits? Over incorporating a separate entity, there would be reduced administrative overheads. That's about all really (apart from perhaps having greater influence over getting funding out of LA :D). If you don't mind filing an annual financial report to corporate affairs, maintaining a membership register and a few other trivial things then there probably isn't a huge difference. Of course LA would have more control over things, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even so, I think that the editor has the final word about content (I've known an organisation where they sacked the President because hey changed something in a newsletter without asking anyone, right before it went to print). Either way, incorporating as a separate entity or doing it under the wing of LA, is certainly better than as an individual with unlimited liablity. I personally don't think that incorporation is too much of a hassle (though it does entail a little bit of work) if you want indepedance, though I seriously doubt LA would hinder that. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia "testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is perfect". -- Linus Torvalds From kim at linmagau.org Sun May 18 11:55:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Sun May 18 11:55:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> Message-ID: <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:55:34PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > Over incorporating a separate entity, there would be reduced > administrative overheads. That's about all really (apart from perhaps > having greater influence over getting funding out of LA :D). If you > don't mind filing an annual financial report to corporate affairs, > maintaining a membership register and a few other trivial things then > there probably isn't a huge difference. Probably much the same amount of ongoing "red tape".. perhaps just a little more inital work as a seperate entity. > > Either way, incorporating as a separate entity or doing it under the > wing of LA, is certainly better than as an individual with unlimited > liablity. I personally don't think that incorporation is too much of a > hassle (though it does entail a little bit of work) if you want > indepedance, though I seriously doubt LA would hinder that. Agreed, the current LA committee is obviously supportive but future evolutions may not be so :( this is true of all "motherships".. Rules set now might get amended at a later date, as has recently happened within another "organisation" in our "community". :).. I shall continue to investigate doing Inc as a seperate entity. Then when someone comes to sue LinMagAU they can take all the assets away..which would amount to errmm a ream of paper I guess :) Thanks for the feedback :) Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au Sun May 18 12:42:02 2003 From: j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au (Jacqueline McNally) Date: Sun May 18 12:42:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> References: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> LinMagAU has published three issues in as many months. This is a remarkable achievement, given the short lead up time and current resources. The most important resource being that of the contributors, and especially Kim herself. >Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) >the authors are all single entities, not bound to LinMagAu in anyway, >nor is LinMagAU to the authors.. we run a standard copyright at >the footer of the pages.. As suggested by others I consider a review date would be appropriate, perhaps at 6 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 1 year. Or, 3 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 6 months. If the project is a huge success say next month, Kim may not have the resources to cope with her new readers (online or paper). Would a review allow Kim to request additional grant monies, or would that need to be a new grant request? My only concern is that it appears that LinMagAU is Kim, and Kim is LinMagAU. The "what if" for me, is if Kim becomes unavailable and no longer has the time to publish LinMagAU, what happens ? Perhaps Kim would consider making a first offer to LA if anything was to occur such that she could not continue with the publication. >Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may >be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. >(with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). >So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. $200/month is a modest request and while I do not feel that it will cover all of the real costs described in the grant proposal, this is what Kim has proposed and feels will get the LinMagAU project underway. All the best Jacqueline McNally www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand OpenOffice.org Marketing Project (www.openoffice.org) Are you a computer angel? (www.ca.asn.au) From kim at linmagau.org Sun May 18 13:27:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Sun May 18 13:27:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> References: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> Message-ID: <20030518052558.GC19510@linmagau.org> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:42:33PM +0800, Jacqueline McNally wrote: > LinMagAU has published three issues in as many months. This is a remarkable > achievement, given the short lead up time and current resources. The most > important resource being that of the contributors, and especially Kim > herself. :).. thanks for the kind words.. It is of course all the authors who finally gave into my nagging that made the issues such a success so far :) > > As suggested by others I consider a review date would be appropriate, > perhaps at 6 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 1 year. Or, > 3 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 6 months. If the > project is a huge success say next month, Kim may not have the resources to > cope with her new readers (online or paper). Would a review allow Kim to > request additional grant monies, or would that need to be a new grant > request? A review date is a good idea.. as in the original request I mentioned a period of 3months in which to get a pro-type "newsletter inhouse built" hard copy, perhaps that in itself is a good time for a first review ? I am not sure what happens if we don't meet the guidelines on time :) but I would think that each project(this included) would be reviewed and discussion between the project lead and LA committee would take place.. I guess case by case is the way to go now, in the early stages of this kind of sponsorship by LA: > > My only concern is that it appears that LinMagAU is Kim, and Kim is > LinMagAU. The "what if" for me, is if Kim becomes unavailable and no longer > has the time to publish LinMagAU, what happens ? /me crossed her fingers for a job.. would this be so :).. Seriously this has concerned me a little too.. I would hope that "when/if" this happens someone else would step up to the plate and take the bat :) Time will tell I guess.. I have a list of folks I would hassle tucked away :) > > Perhaps Kim would consider making a first offer to LA if anything was to > occur such that she could not continue with the publication. Agreed, LA and (hopefully to come )other sponsors would be the first to know. > $200/month is a modest request and while I do not feel that it will cover > all of the real costs described in the grant proposal, this is what Kim has > proposed and feels will get the LinMagAU project underway. I discussed this with some of the committee members prior to making the request, so that I was at least being realistic.. my biggest concern was (and still is) just covering my out of pocket expenses.. my time comes free.. although perhaps with all this talk of Incorporation, I might spin off my own CMS/Media consultancy.. and charge like a wounded bull :) Naturally I would do another application :):) In reality, whilst I am unemployed I think this is a valuable way to spend my time, and so long as my actual costs are covered I am pretty happy.. > All the best Thanks again for the support Jacqueline & all others. Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org > Jacqueline McNally > www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline > > Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand > OpenOffice.org Marketing Project > (www.openoffice.org) > > Are you a computer angel? (www.ca.asn.au) > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From stewartsmith at mac.com Mon May 19 09:30:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Mon May 19 09:30:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet Message-ID: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, The Linux Australia Committee had our first (excluding just after election at LCA03) face-to-face meeting over the past weekend. Many thanks to other committee members who gave up their precious time to help make LA a better organization. Many positive things have come out of our meeting, and we will be posting them here for all to see and comment on. Just give us some time to neaten up some notes and transcribe a bunch of stuff. Personally, I'm extremely happy with how much we managed to achieve and go through this weekend and look forward to the positive discussion on-list about the topics concerned. Special thanks to Pia&Jeff for putting myself and Leon up for our stay in Sydney, Andrew Cowie for some really good preparation and presentation of process (I really can't think of a good way to word it, but it really helped and you'll hear the outcomes) and, of course, the entire committee for putting forward such great ideas. (I didn't really intend to start a rant on "how good are we!", but I'm allowed to feel good on a sunday night :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 19 09:58:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 19 09:58:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet In-Reply-To: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030519015624.GP15241@cyber.com.au> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:02:36PM +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: > Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, Stewart, you really must tell me how you manage to type on your laptop, whilst sky-diving and whilst wearing breathing apparatus... *G* -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From greebo at pacific.net.au Mon May 19 22:11:01 2003 From: greebo at pacific.net.au (Pia Smith) Date: Mon May 19 22:11:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > > association). I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia separate is probably a good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent view of Linux Australia and other groups. Maybe get a few interested people together as a SIG, LA could help to set this up and possibly help support it in other ways (will have to evaluate), but Linux Australia would rather put in place a system so that linmagau is not tied to the direction of Linux Australia. We don't want to run it, or make a system that would allow future LA committees to run it, Kim is doing a great job, and we hope to support her in that! :) The 3/6 month idea seems to be a good idea. Maybe commit to the funds for 3 months, with a report from Kim at the end of that time to set up the next 3 months, and so on. Regards, Pia -- Pia Smith From jdub at perkypants.org Mon May 19 22:37:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Mon May 19 22:37:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <20030519143357.GP20447@lazarus> > > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some > > > other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, > > > existing association). > > I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia separate is probably a > good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent view of Linux Australia > and other groups. (For what it's worth, I really strongly agree.) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ Broken hearts rarely come with "Some Assembly Required" stickers. From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Tue May 20 08:02:02 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue May 20 08:02:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030520093143.7cff4915.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Kim, > :).. I shall continue to investigate doing Inc as a seperate entity. > Then when someone comes to sue LinMagAU they can take all the assets > away..which would amount to errmm a ream of paper I guess :) Not necessarily--if the "directors" of an association have not acted diligently in their duties they can be sued for their personal belongings as well. One can get zapped if: * one fails to understand obvious financial misreporting * one fails to attempt to do something about financial misdemeanors - i.e. they may happen but if you can demonstrate that you saw them and were attempting to rectify them [but the 6 other directors all voted against getting an audit] then you're safe * other ways DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030520/4d5b9cfe/attachment.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 08:55:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 08:55:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> Message-ID: <200305200858.40458.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sat, 17 May 2003 01:31, Jeff Waugh wrote: > >> finding the 5/6 folks who might be >> interested in being on the exec...? Perhaps a LA rep would be great? > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd > be better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or > some other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another > appropriate, existing association). Agree. It would make insurance and lots of other things simpler. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:13:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 09:13:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] LA Committee (was: Grant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305200916.29253.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sun, 18 May 2003 00:17, Dai_Thai NGUYEN wrote: > I've never > really trusted beureaucrats/politicians and I doubt that I ever will. That's well-placed trust. (-: > Even when I have been involved in administration/management I've > found that internal bickering between contrasting personalities leads > to counter productivity. I think in this place _very_ much not. Disclaimer: I am an LA OCM. What I say will be biassed by this. I've worked with and in a few committees now, and the current LA committee works singularly well. As with any organisation of any size, some effort is "wasted" in conlict and in overheads. Unlike many of the committees I've worked in, these differences are made productive, with very little guarding-of-territory and no hackles-up factionation. Even Hugh and Tridge, both of whom work with each other at IBM, have distinct and different viewpoints, personalities and approaches (and it must be said: evidently both have enormous depth of experience at working with groups and committees, perhaps this helps more than it shows). Every person on that Committee has quite distinct wishes and priorities. Every single person on that Committee has shown themselves willing, even eager to give ground if a superior, or more practical, or simply more popular option is advanced, or if real flaws and concerns are unearthed in one of their own issues du jour. In this regard, we hew closely to the "meritocracy" (seemed to be Word of the Day for Tridge on Sunday) so dear to Linus' heart, and who better to establish the character of a Linux-based group than Linus? There are no dummies. There are no hyperegos. There are no knives in the back. Pray that it stays that way! We have reps from big companies, small companies, employees, males, females, four Australian states, inner-city dwellers, country boys, programmers, managers. I suppose we could do with Asian, Aboriginal and Negro representatives too, but we're doing pretty well on all other fronts already. So... nobody's perfect, Dai Thai Nguyen, but IMESHO opinion we've got a good deal going for us so far, worth getting behind and pushing rather than regarding with fear and trembling from the sidelines. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:19:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 09:19:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sun, 18 May 2003 06:23, David Lloyd wrote: > I am going to put my ballerina shoes and do pirouettes. _Please_ no! (-: > Not being an incorporated entity--and therefore a legal nobody--is > worse. Organisations can work well with a committee. The best thing > about committees is that you generally have at least five to seven > people who ensure things get done. This can also turn into you have > five to seven people who get to do everything because noone else is > willing to help. /ME shutting up now. (-: >> Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? There is. LA Ctte was elected on a vote. Non-obvious decisions are made within Ctte on a vote. > But then who counts the votes? Officially, the Secretary (in the case of the election, Rusty :-) > And what if a consensus can't be found? Hasn't happened yet. If it does, more debate would ensue until someone changed their mind. Otherwise, we all leave in a huff, stop talking to each other, and any heirarchical worries are history. (-: > Damn, someone would have to adjudicate the results. The bastards! How could they? (-: > But that's too hierarchical isn't it. Three levels. Members, Committee, tiebreaker. Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election as proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, with or without office. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:28:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 09:28:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] thanks from 30,000 feet In-Reply-To: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <200305200931.53713.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sun, 18 May 2003 20:02, Stewart Smith wrote: > Many positive things have come out of our meeting Agree. > Special thanks to Pia&Jeff for putting myself and Leon up for our > stay in Sydney, Agree. > Andrew Cowie for some really good preparation and > presentation of process (I really can't think of a good way to word > it, but it really helped and you'll hear the outcomes) Very much agree. It should be said that Andrew didn't get everything he wanted, so any bias he put into the construction of "the process" seems to have been submerged. Thanks are also due to Pia's workplace for the venue. Off-topic, but worth saying: The seats on VirginBlue 'planes suck, but the hosties are excellent. Talking to a newbie (3 weeks on the job) hostie, their last induction was 2000 people, of which only 30 were chosen (4 of them male) to go through training. VirginBlue would be delighted to get more male hosties, BTW, so if you're looking for a *different* kind of job... (-: Back on topic (ish): one of the hosties on the way across knew about Linux - I was wearing an LA tee-shirt - her previous boyfriend had been a Linux consultant (I have no idea who he was, she's a very pretty slim tallish blonde with a Nordic look and name). The internet kiosks in Perth airport have been switched from Windows to Linux (or at least X) but the ones at Sydney airport have not, and neither have those at the Northern Territory terrorism office/shop at Darling Harbour. Rip into 'em, SLUG members! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au Tue May 20 10:14:02 2003 From: andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au (Andrew Cowie) Date: Tue May 20 10:14:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> [My, hasn't this thread wavered from it's title?] On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 11:22, Leon Brooks wrote: > Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election as > proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, with or > without office. I'd like to pick up on Leon's last point. I've heard tell that one of the challenges faced by many of the Community / User Group style associations here in Australia is that the Committee ends up doing all the work, to the benefit of the membership. This is fine, of course, and willingness to put work in is one of the criteria to being nominated to the Committee of any volunteer organization. I have, however, heard from quite a few people who indicate a willingness to participate and contribute. You don't have to be on the [managing] Committee [aka Board] of an organization to make a difference! One of the reasons we put a fair number of things out to this mailing list is to invite your feedback and comment. The other is to invite participation; as we proceed towards encouraging and supporting the community, we'll certainly be grateful of any help, enthusiasm or energy you can provide. There are a few projects and initiatives that we'll be circulating here. You've already started to see requests for Grant support; there's certainly the annual technical conference LCA which can always use your help. We're working to implement a membership database so we can make joining LA easier, to go along with a makeover of our website to make information more accessible. And, we're looking into other ways to support the community. So, if you see something that catches your eye in the weeks and months ahead, and you think you'd like to contribute, just let us know! AfC Secretary [until y'all boot me out next summer] Linux Australia -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au From anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au Tue May 20 11:03:01 2003 From: anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?=) Date: Tue May 20 11:03:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> While everyone's still on this thread, it seems to be getting a bit OT, I'm sorting through all of this, please change it to ..... was: Grant aplpication #2, or else I'll get a headache quickly, lol. John http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au Tue May 20 11:14:02 2003 From: anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?=) Date: Tue May 20 11:14:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030519143357.GP20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030520031331.16432.qmail@web20301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff > Waugh wrote: > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering > doing this, that you'd be > > > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group > or sub-committee or some > > > > other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or > another appropriate, > > > > existing association). > > > > I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia > separate is probably a > > good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent > view of Linux Australia > > and other groups. > > (For what it's worth, I really strongly agree.) > > - Jeff I'll second that, I think the *nix population in general would be pretty annoyed and bored with an 'organisation friendly' slanted magazine. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Tue May 20 11:17:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue May 20 11:17:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Helping Linux-Aus In-Reply-To: <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030520124701.5c279874.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Ok... Is there a list where volunteers can lurk and a coordinator (probably the committee) can say things like: "L.A. needs [a pouch of tobacco | someone to wash the dishes]"...i.e. is this the appropriate list? DSL -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030520/0878a516/attachment.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 11:19:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 11:19:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] contributing to LA (was: Grant) In-Reply-To: <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200305201121.35889.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Tue, 20 May 2003 10:12, Andrew Cowie wrote: > [My, hasn't this thread wavered from it's title?] Never seen _that_ happen before. ( :-) > On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 11:22, Leon Brooks wrote: >> Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election >> as proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, >> with or without office. > I'd like to pick up on Leon's last point. I've heard tell that one of > the challenges faced by many of the Community / User Group style > associations here in Australia is that the Committee ends up doing > all the work, to the benefit of the membership. > This is fine, of course, and willingness to put work in is one of the > criteria to being nominated to the Committee of any volunteer > organization. > I have, however, heard from quite a few people who indicate a > willingness to participate and contribute. You don't have to be on > the [managing] Committee [aka Board] of an organization to make a > difference! Case in point: MissKim - no board/committee, no formal organisation at all, but she's certainly making a difference! Note that she's both helping and being helped by LA, the ideal circumstance. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au Tue May 20 15:44:02 2003 From: xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Tue May 20 15:44:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet In-Reply-To: <20030519015624.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:26 AM, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:02:36PM +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: >> Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, > > Stewart, you really must tell me how you manage to type on your laptop, > whilst sky-diving and whilst wearing breathing apparatus... *G* Apple Airport - don't underestimate its power. R > -- > _______________________________________________________________________ > ______ > Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 > 9621 2377 > Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development > www.cyber.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 ICQ: 76626240 IRC: xf / irc.oublinet.net PH: +61 418 186 604 EQ: Mummer (Bard), Tholuxe In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+ydx1Rcxk39PM6wcRAod7AJ9W6u104FxMZGQpotHFeWG3CiCaFACggeFg konGZo9dof0wMPBEnMyApRc= =CbTC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au Tue May 20 21:32:02 2003 From: andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au (Andrew Cowie) Date: Tue May 20 21:32:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OSI weighs in on the SCO case Message-ID: <1053437438.19923.20.camel@localhost> [Google News pointed at an article running on Slashdot, pointing at this article, largely authored by Eric Raymond] We had a discussion here last week about the history of Unix, the AT&T vs BSD lawsuit, and the suit launched by SCO against IBM. The Open Source Initiative has weighed in with an amicus cuirae brief. http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html It makes for insightful reading. AfC -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au From leon at cyberknights.com.au Wed May 21 11:41:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Wed May 21 11:41:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Statement on SCO Message-ID: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> I'd like to see a joint official statement from LA and SLPWA on SCO's storm-in-a-teacup and get it into the newspapers. Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to intellectual property), and assuring the business community that using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. The idea is to complement Con's release rather than reiterating it, to show FOSS groups acting cooperatively, and to get two more names before the public eye in a positive light. Before I set fingers to keyboard, I'd like to hear Jeremy Malcolm's pro-bono opinion on the above points, and y'all opining both on the content front and the desirability or otherwise of a joint media statement. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Wed May 21 14:28:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Wed May 21 14:28:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45, Leon Brooks wrote: > Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission > process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the > kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring > SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities > (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), > deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation > by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual > property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking > to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to > intellectual property), and assuring the business community that > using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. OK... take 1: BEGIN SPIEL Linux Australia (LA) and the Society of Linux Professionals Western Australia (SLPWA) have come under increasing pressure to respond to the Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) accusations of wholesale code plagiarism in the Linux kernel. SCO continue to disparage the quality control systems involved in assembling the Linux kernel, but those systems have driven Linux development to capabilities only dreamed of by SCO's own UNIX product, and at a much higher pace. Linux now runs on SGI's 64-to-512-processor Altix 3000 systems, and powers thousand-processor Beowulf supercomputing clusters. The same Linux quality control systems would have seen the modification or almost certainly rejection of any code from SCO UNIX, no matter how well disguised. The internals of the two systems are arranged in a very different manner, so it would make little sense to graft code from one kernel into the other. The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many substantial errors of fact like this, which leads LA and SLPWA to the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their suit. SCO have freely published the source code in question themselves for some considerable time after filing the complaint under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the Linux kernel from subversion, so even if the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal sense. Many important industry commentators are concluding that widespread Linux adoption is not just safe but inevitable. We also note that Microsoft have now bought a licence to use UNIX code from SCO despite having no real purpose for it. That act appears to be designed to sustain the confusion raised by SCO's mistake. We openly appeal to SCO to admit their mistake, apologise and withdraw their charge. We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is running out of growth areas, and will die if they do not grow, and assert that unless they are prepared to become consistently trustworthy, fair players they will not easily be able to enter the new markets they will inevitably need. END SPIEL Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 14:53:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 14:53:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> > We also note that Microsoft have now bought a licence to use UNIX code > from SCO despite having no real purpose for it. That act appears to be > designed to sustain the confusion raised by SCO's mistake. > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is running > out of growth areas, and will die if they do not grow, and assert that > unless they are prepared to become consistently trustworthy, fair players > they will not easily be able to enter the new markets they will inevitably > need. Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. You will make a much stronger point if you stick to the facts, and don't delve into emotional crap that interests no one else but us (this harmed the otherwise very good OSI position paper too). Further comments on subsequent reads. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "What inspired you to become a bus driver?" "Linus Torvalds." From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Wed May 21 15:07:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Wed May 21 15:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeff, > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. I'd also point out: What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? I thought *anyone* could purchase such a licence, just that the licence was beyond the usual individuals' or companies' reach. Also the "Microsoft shouldn't be purchasing Unix licences" camp fall into another particular trap. If we want to share our ideas a community, we place them under the GPL/BSD licence or whatever. That is to say, the open source community respects the open source licences. So, if Microsoft decide to use some of the Unix source code to improve their line of products shouldn't they behave themselves and purchase the correct licence? Sure...it will cost them more than if Unix (that thing owned by SCO) were under the BSD licence or GPL but they're still playing by the rules. So, at one minute we're saying "Learn as a community, play by the rules" but then saying "But we don't want Microsoft to learn from a community". I find that illogical. (but my logic often is convoluted and fails me) DSL - -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yyVpNBhAwwyvg/kRAoKkAJ9tBhDcJKZGAQN5H25rtP7fDmLs+wCZARvY f7KLY29qoha+QLNBsYABj80= =LHFt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 15:15:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 15:15:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521070228.GQ20447@lazarus> > OK... take 1: Actually, before I comment on the content further... Who is the audience (assuming that it's not the same audience who have already read the OSI position statement)? Does this speak to them? Is it relevant to them? Does it provide more information to them than a pointer to and statement of support of the OSI position paper? What is the message you're trying to get across to this audience? Has someone already said it better? Will this add to the debate, or detract from it through signal-to-noise? It's a good doc, but I'm not sure who it's for / why it's needed / whether its better than existing material. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "People who paid for bug fixes in the 3c501 driver also bought MacIIfx support contracts..." - Alan Cox From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 16:21:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 16:21:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 02:32:03PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45, Leon Brooks wrote: > > Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission > > process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the > > kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring > > SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities > > (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), > > deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation > > by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual > > property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking > > to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to > > intellectual property), and assuring the business community that > > using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. > > OK... take 1: > > BEGIN SPIEL > > Linux Australia (LA) and the Society of Linux Professionals Western > Australia (SLPWA) have come under increasing pressure to respond to the > Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) accusations of wholesale code plagiarism > in the Linux kernel. > > SCO continue to disparage the quality control systems involved in > assembling the Linux kernel, but those systems have driven Linux > development to capabilities only dreamed of by SCO's own UNIX product, > and at a much higher pace. Linux now runs on SGI's 64-to-512-processor > Altix 3000 systems, and powers thousand-processor Beowulf > supercomputing clusters. Recommend to spend as little time as possible on a technical pro-Linux stance, even though we all agree with these statements. How about: "SCO were once a dominant player in the Unix-on-Intel marketplace, yet failed to capitalise on this dominance with their legacy UNIX platform. Linux, written from the ground-up, in a public and openly accountable manner, has managed to fairly-and-squarely defeat SCO's product line, by offering a better product at better value, benefitting all consumers of IT. SCO is pursuing this case in a desperate effort to compete by way of baseless injection of fear and doubt rather than through legitimate open and fair competition" ... > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. Acts such as this, are also Microsoft's only means of trying to slow the rampant growth of Linux and lend weight to industry-wide realisation that the company has no other methods for dealing with Linux's threat to their core product line." con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 16:33:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 16:33:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> > > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is > > "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support > SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no verifiable evidence". ;-) Why all the effort to score points on MS? - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ The implementation of any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from pr0n. From mikal at stillhq.com Wed May 21 17:07:24 2003 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Wed May 21 17:07:24 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Leon Brooks wrote: > I'd like to see a joint official statement from LA and SLPWA on SCO's > storm-in-a-teacup and get it into the newspapers. You should talk to AUUG about coming to the party -- they have good media contacts as well, and should be seen to take a stance on this. Cheers, Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal at stillhq.com) | Stage 1: Steal underpants http://www.stillhq.com | Stage 2: ???? UTC + 10 | Stage 3: Profit From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 20:04:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 20:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 04:36:18PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Jeff, > > > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. > > I'd also point out: > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to this fact? Not a chance. Although I'd agree with Jeff and possibly excise any comments on Microsoft, if Leon wants to include something, we need to ensure that people understand that Microsoft's actions in no way validate SCO's position. The only reason that Microsoft has elected to act in this way, at this juncture, as should be obvious to all observers, is to seek maximal damage to Linux, and try and fan Microsoft's claim that Linux is somehow 'illegal' or a 'cancerous infliction' on righteous and proper firms like SCO. This is why Microsoft has been claiming '...unlike some, we respect the intellectual property rights of others.' Oh really? Read this: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml and this: Timeline has won a recent ruling which exposes all Microsoft SQL Server developers to a serious patent encumbrance. The following was reported in the trade-press: The judgment concerns a contract dispute between Timeline Inc. and Microsoft, over three patents relating to datamarts. In Microsoft's interpretration of its licence with Timeline, published in a press release in July 1999, "all users of Microsoft SQL Server 7, Office 2000 and other Microsoft products that utilize this type of technology are unencumbered by Timeline's patents." Timeline disagreed. The Washington Court of Appeal judgement plumped for the company. The company reckons that some SQL Server developers could face bills in the millions of dollars. The "damages they face may be material to Timeline's future financial results," Charles Osenbaugh, Timeline's president and CEO. (Sources: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/29419.html and http://news.com.com/2100-1001- 985359.html) con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 20:12:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 20:12:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 06:30:02PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > > > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is > > > > "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support > > SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. > > I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no > verifiable evidence". ;-) Invoking the Prince in all matters of deceitful practice is always fun, no? > > Why all the effort to score points on MS? Don't look at me :-) I'm merely making a suggestion to slightly polish Leon's original piece. con ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 20:35:03 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 20:35:03 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> > > I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no > > verifiable evidence". ;-) > > Invoking the Prince in all matters of deceitful practice is always fun, > no? If you were doing a parody of yourself, sure. "Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!" > ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark > fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 So, it's okay for us to be as thoroughly stupid as the sensationalist press that has built and tugged this story for all it's worth? I would like to see some pretty solid evidence before sticking my nose into the conspiracy theorist's pie... - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "But in the software world, that's daily business." - Kent Beck "That's pissing money away and leaving scar tissue." - Alan Cooper From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 20:37:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 20:37:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> > > > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > > > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > > > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. > > > > I'd also point out: > > > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm flabbergasted that everyone is squealing like children about this. We don't have to -> we're better than that. > Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their > current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do > you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to > this fact? Not a chance. Remember also that Caldera's previous target was none other than... Microsoft. Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the real thing"? The fact is, we don't know, it's all conjecture, and we just look like kids pointing at the bogeyman in the closet everytime we complain that Microsoft is "being unfair". We're better than that. > Although I'd agree with Jeff and possibly excise any comments on > Microsoft, if Leon wants to include something, we need to ensure that > people understand that Microsoft's actions in no way validate SCO's > position. Mentioning it validates it. First rule of combative marketing: Never say "there's nothing to see here". It's not relevant to the point (SCO's inane initial filing and subsequent FUD), and it's fact-free FUD repetition (at this stage, because there is *no evidence* to suggest a relationship so far) -> but it's FUD perpetrated by us! > The only reason that Microsoft has elected to act in this way, at this > juncture, as should be obvious to all observers, is to seek maximal damage > to Linux, and try and fan Microsoft's claim that Linux is somehow > 'illegal' or a 'cancerous infliction' on righteous and proper firms like > SCO. > > This is why Microsoft has been claiming '...unlike some, we respect the > intellectual property rights of others.' Oh really? > > Read this: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml > > and this: ... flame, flame, flame... C'mon. We're better than this. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "I tried to make money ass signing, but the bottom fell out of the market." - Liam Quin From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Wed May 21 20:51:01 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Wed May 21 20:51:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: Hi, 2 cents worth of input.. Jeff Waugh asked: >Who is the audience >(assuming that it's not the same audience >who have already read the OSI >position statement)? I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or does already make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel Based. Specifically those already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who were considering Linux. I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with POS terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux as the only easy answer. That's not correct, but it is what they suggest. >Does this speak to them? Is it relevant to them? >Does >it provide more information to them than a >pointer to and statement of >support of the OSI position paper? The audience I have suggested is not interested in the technical issues. All comment from "our side" to date, has been directed at US, not the end users in Enterprise. The comments are good, but they don't mean much to an SME. This particular audience, SMEs, may only chose to see that SCO is taking the FOSS movement to task because of perceived plagarism. So much so that SCO seek to charge Linux adopters for code that has appeared in the SMEs chosen platform, namely Linux. If "perception is swung a little further, Open Source for SMEs will suffer a dramatic reversal in current enquiry rates.... (and I will be eating wheat instead of bread....:-) >What is the message you're trying to get >across to this audience? Don't worry all you SMEs. This SCO thing is silly and we consider the whole action a farce deemed to scare you away and prevent you from enjoying the savings and robustness that is inherent in Open Source. We need to offer up a suggestion for enterprises which reflects our concerns but expresses our firm belief in the whole thing being nonsensical, a mere sidestep towards the inevitable. >Has someone already said it better? No, and fairly soon, the issue will filter down from the technical arena and it will be "demystified" for an SMEs easy consumption and understanding. My humble opinion is that this is the area of concern and required action. Can you get something out there that helps to influence the "demystifying text" that will appear if this story gets really mainstream? (By that I mean something like an extended Fin Review article in Fridays edition...the one that an SME operator takes home on the weekend to read and learn because the stories are pertinent yet written for easy consumption...) >Will this add to the debate, or detract >from it through signal-to-noise? If sustained "techy foot-stamping"* concerning this matter hit's an SMEs ears, it will be a bounding leap back for the uptake of Free and Open Source Software. This outcome would probably be fulfilling one of SCOs goals. >It's a good doc, but I'm not sure who it's for / why it's needed / whether >its better than existing material. I concur, a good doc, and I think the idea is sound, but could you consider the SME audience instead? BW *I do not suggest that anyone here is stamping their feet, but there is a rising element of this in many lists and groups concerning SCO. From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 22:36:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 22:36:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:28:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark > > fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 > > So, it's okay for us to be as thoroughly stupid as the sensationalist press > that has built and tugged this story for all it's worth? I would like to see > some pretty solid evidence before sticking my nose into the conspiracy > theorist's pie... I think you missed the point. I was indicating that in the minds of many industry publications (read the headlines) Microsoft is inexorably linked into this issue. What the trade-rags write about one day, the IT public believes the next. Sensationalist? Perhaps. But that's the way the world works. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 22:52:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 22:52:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:25:10PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > > > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. > > How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence > that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm Where did I state that Microsoft are funding SCO? > flabbergasted that everyone is squealing like children about this. We don't > have to -> we're better than that. My point is that until Microsoft stepped up to the plate to render moral support to SCO, no other major IT firm was saying a good word about them. Microsoft buys into the argument, and suddenly SCO are saying 'look, we told you we had valuable IP rights. In fact, they are so valuable that Microsoft has signed an agreement with us, vindicating our attack on Linux.' Cluelessly aimed red herring? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Thus the posited counter-argument. > > > Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their > > current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do > > you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to > > this fact? Not a chance. > > Remember also that Caldera's previous target was none other than... > Microsoft. Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL > code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the real thing"? Jeff, go and check out what Microsoft are including in SFU. I think you'll find that there is little on offer from SCO Unix which can match the quality of the GPL offerings. > > The fact is, we don't know, it's all conjecture, and we just look like kids > pointing at the bogeyman in the closet everytime we complain that Microsoft > is "being unfair". We're better than that. The aforemention item was an example raised within the confines of the LA mailing list. At no point did I suggest that we run with it publicly. However, the timing of the Microsoft deal with SCO cannot be excused so lightly. Remember, Microsoft aren't including pieces of the Linux kernel in SFU, so SCO's recent rants about IP issues with Linux are not what's causing Microsoft to suddenly sign a deal. Tactically, the only motivator is maximal damage point scoring off Linux, which I believe can be counter-argued effectively. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 23:15:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 23:15:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521150130.GE20447@lazarus> > I think you missed the point. > > I was indicating that in the minds of many industry publications (read the > headlines) Microsoft is inexorably linked into this issue. What the > trade-rags write about one day, the IT public believes the next. > Sensationalist? Perhaps. But that's the way the world works. I think I covered that bit in the 'first rule of combative marketing' response. :-) - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 23:22:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 23:22:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> > > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. > > > > How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence > > that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm > > Where did I state that Microsoft are funding SCO? You didn't. You suggested that their actions helped SCO out. > Microsoft buys into the argument, and suddenly SCO are saying 'look, we > told you we had valuable IP rights. In fact, they are so valuable that > Microsoft has signed an agreement with us, vindicating our attack on > Linux.' Cluelessly aimed red herring? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Thus the > posited counter-argument. Unfounded, completely lacking evidence, sensationalist conspiracy theory? Sure! MS have done a business deal for whatever reason. The trade press have hamfisted it up into an issue. Does that require a counter-argument? Jumping to conclusions and giving them the "there's nothing to see here" response is, come to think of it, remarkably like replying to spam on a public mailing list -> it just makes things worse. > Jeff, go and check out what Microsoft are including in SFU. I think you'll > find that there is little on offer from SCO Unix which can match the > quality of the GPL offerings. I use SFU. I know what's in it. My point, which you deftly missed to keep hammering home your own point, was that it doesn't matter what MS wants to do with their license to SCO's UNIX bits. It's irrelevant. > However, the timing of the Microsoft deal with SCO cannot be excused so > lightly. Remember, Microsoft aren't including pieces of the Linux kernel > in SFU, so SCO's recent rants about IP issues with Linux are not what's > causing Microsoft to suddenly sign a deal. Tactically, the only motivator > is maximal damage point scoring off Linux, which I believe can be > counter-argued effectively. Sorry, but this is unfounded, pointing-at-bogeyman silliness. Until someone gets up and publishes a Halloween-class document pointing to conspiratorial intrigue between Microsoft and SCO [1], I don't think we need to validate this inane sensationalist crap by recognising it at all. The fight that matters to us is making a public mockery of SCO's laughable initial filing, pointing out how serious the allegations are and why they matter very deeply to the FOSS community, and coming across as professional, capable, committed and confident in our software and community. Tilting at windmills and wailing at the big-bad-bogeyman of the IT industry is fundamentally irrelevant to those goals. If, however, your goal is to point out the failings of, and poke fun at MS at every opportunity (sometimes, it truly sounds like some people on this list only care about that), please go and have a good read of the Linux Advocacy HOWTO. [ Con, I'm not accusing you of not being a good advocate, I'm suggesting that this particular fight - the whole MS angle on the SCO thing - is not worth your effort. Unless you're in it for the exposure. ;-) ] - Jeff [1] script goes like this: McBride: Hey, you remember how we bought DR-DOS, sued your arses off, and settled for an undisclosed sum that has kept our company going for the last few years? Gates: ... Yes? McBride: So, we were thinking of doing the same to IBM. Wanna join in the fun? Gates: Please get out of my office you slimy, odious rodent. -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Everyone's a little queer, why can't she be a little straight?" - Weezer, Pink Triangle From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 22 06:48:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 22 06:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521224657.GE16623@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:17:57AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > Sorry, but this is unfounded, pointing-at-bogeyman silliness. Until someone > gets up and publishes a Halloween-class document pointing to conspiratorial > intrigue between Microsoft and SCO [1], I don't think we need to validate > this inane sensationalist crap by recognising it at all. Yes, in a perfect world, sticking to what has been validated as fact makes sense. But more often than not, it's perceptions that matter, and not reality. Anyways... > > The fight that matters to us is making a public mockery of SCO's laughable > initial filing, pointing out how serious the allegations are and why they > matter very deeply to the FOSS community, and coming across as professional, > capable, committed and confident in our software and community. > > Tilting at windmills and wailing at the big-bad-bogeyman of the IT industry > is fundamentally irrelevant to those goals. I'll re-iterate my post where I said that I agreed with your idea of excising the stuff about Microsoft. You'll note that in the OSV release, we made no mention of Microsoft at all. My input on Microsoft was in response to Leon's original press-release. ... > > [ Con, I'm not accusing you of not being a good advocate, I'm suggesting > that this particular fight - the whole MS angle on the SCO thing - is not > worth your effort. Unless you're in it for the exposure. ;-) ] How do you figure I'll get exposure from something like this? con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 08:52:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 08:52:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Jeff Waugh wrote: > Mentioning it validates it. First rule of combative marketing: > Never say "there's nothing to see here". True. What I wish to get across is not "nothing to see here" but "look, Linux's quality controls work, and the licence also works". Jeff also wrote: > Who is the audience (assuming that it's not the same audience who > have already read the OSI position statement)? Does this speak to > them? Brent Wallis replied: > We need to offer up a suggestion for enterprises which reflects > our concerns but expresses our firm belief in the whole thing > being nonsensical, a mere sidestep towards the inevitable. I agree with that. I believe our tactic for this "release" (or whatever) should focus on talking up Linux and FOSS and how well they're coping with spurious attacks. David Lloyd wrote: > So, if Microsoft decide to use some of the Unix source code to > improve their line of products shouldn't they behave themselves > and purchase the correct licence? Sure... it will cost them > more than if Unix (that thing owned by SCO) were under the BSD > licence or GPL but they're still playing by the rules. I join Con on this one in saying that it will not be an improvement on anything they already have. Very little of what SCO have to offer covers anything but the UNIX kernel, and I can't see any use for that in SFU or anything else Microsoft ship. Unless they've noted that in the last week two other 'phone providers have abandoned WinCE, and two *different* 'phone providers have declared for Linux, so are chasing a home-owned embedded derivative of SCO to replace WinCE with. Con Zymaris wrote: > My point is that until Microsoft stepped up to the plate to render > moral support to SCO, no other major IT firm was saying a good word > about them. I think we need to at least undermine this sneaky tactic and possibly make mileage from it. I think the closest we can get to a positive spin on it is mentioning how much Microsoft's approach seems to have improved since the TimeLine/MS-SQL-Server debacle surfaced. I think we need to touch on this - combative marketing rules or no - because it is a fairly direct example of Microsoft doing exactly what SCO is accusing IBM-and-us of. However, Jeff Waugh made another *excellent* point: > Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL > code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the > real thing"? No, and I feel a proper chook for having overlooked this one. (-: IMESHO, Jeff would be a horror to face across a courtroom floor :-) Microsoft would of course be very pleased to be able to stop shipping GPLed code. It's a major stick in their spokes when it comes to deploring the "pacman-like" nature of the GPL. I don't think that SCO have enough bits and pieces to accomplish this completely, especially since the biggest pieces of SFU have nothing to do with the licence MS has bought, but it would at least give Microsoft a bit of a jump-start on winkling this particular thorn from their side. In a way, I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't just buy SCO/Caldera outright, but perhaps they have in mind waiting until SCO's value is less than that of sand in the Sahara and meantime making friendly overtures until the axe falls. Yes, Michael Still, I think rolling AUUG in would also be a good idea, pursuant to which I've added their "talk" list to this message. I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or LA's. If no Australian Linux or FOSS organisations agree on the content or obviously want to take part, I'll make it a release from CyberKnights Pty Ltd. I would prefer to see a harmonious public chorus from our Linux, FOSS and business interests. So... take 2: === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa Cruz Operation (SCO). The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their suit against IBM. One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate SCO's charges. We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous flame of personal or corporate ambition. It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and political senses. === THAT'S ALL, FOLKS === For the curious, http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2000license.htm says, under "SCO OpenServer Release 5" and "SCO UnixWare 7" in the download table, "No Longer Available". They are simply not listed on the FP 2002 page (http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2002supported.htm). It's interesting that FP support for AIX (and for SUSE Linux on S/390) appears to have been discontinued at IBM's request. Jeremy Malcolm has evidently been too snowed under to pitch in, and I would like to wait for his opinion since it is likely to carry significant professional weight. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From andrae.muys at braintree.com.au Thu May 22 09:25:01 2003 From: andrae.muys at braintree.com.au (Andrae Muys) Date: Thu May 22 09:25:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> Brent Wallis wrote: > Hi, > 2 cents worth of input.. > > Jeff Waugh asked: > >>Who is the audience >>(assuming that it's not the same audience >>who have already read the OSI >>position statement)? > > > I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or does already > make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel Based. Specifically those > already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who were considering Linux. > > I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with POS > terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running > an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. > The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex > for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy > route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux > as the only easy answer. > > That's not correct, but it is what they > suggest. > So you have lost money from this farce? Have you approached the ACCC with a complaint of Misleading and Deceptive Conduct? In fact (while IANAL) even if the complaint was demonstrated to be true, the unsubstantiated threat of legal action almost certainly contravenes multiple fair-trading regulations. If you suffer loss to calumny, you have legal and regulatory recourse. As far as mentioning MS, I would recommend against any reference at all. We gain nothing from it, as the timing of the announcement was too blatent to miss; while any mention will be spun to our detriment by any MS sycophant who picks up on it. Better to focus on the primary objective, discrediting SCO. Andrae Muys -- Andrae Muys Engineer Braintree Communications From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 09:39:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 09:39:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> References: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> Message-ID: <200305220943.46431.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 09:23, Andrae Muys wrote: > As far as mentioning MS, I would recommend against any reference at > all. We gain nothing from it, as the timing of the announcement was > too blatent to miss; while any mention will be spun to our detriment > by any MS sycophant who picks up on it. Better to focus on the > primary objective, discrediting SCO. I think there is a meta-objective, "encrediting" Linux and the FOSS process. Although it carries some risk, I'm in favour of entangling Microsoft in this one as long as it can be done in such a way that it is difficult to view the mention as just another panicky whinge. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Thu May 22 10:23:02 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Thu May 22 10:23:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: Hi, Brent Wallis wrote: > Hi, > 2 cents worth of input.. > > Jeff Waugh asked: > >>Who is the audience >>(assuming that it's not the same audience >>who have already read the OSI >>position statement)? > > > I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or > does already make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel > Based. Specifically those already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who > were considering Linux. > > I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with > POS > terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running > an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. > The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex > for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy > route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux > as the only easy answer. > > That's not correct, but it is what they > suggest. > Andrae said: >So you have lost money from this farce? Have you approached the ACCC >with a complaint of Misleading and Deceptive Conduct? Not yet...:) I don't think it will actually come to that. Approaching the ACCC, to me seems a difficult issue because the case is in the US. It's the "delay factor" that matters. The client is relatively high profile and a success in their systems (a given if we get the contract BTW) would enable even more success. Success breeds success....a very old concept. FUD like SCOs (*spit*) is directed at de-stabilising this concept. My concern falls mainly in the slowing down of enquiry and adoption rates. For this client, it could be RH Linux AS this half, next financial half, it "could" be 200 odd Linux desktops. Everything hinges on a smooth and timely install of that first server. From our own point of view, a success with this client is worth more in the "look what Linux can do" arena than the immediate fee revenue. I am sure it isn't just us either, and my concern (believe it or not...)is for the community, not just our pockets. Hell if we loose this, there are always others. If the community is successful, then so are we. If the FOSS community has sh**t flung at it and is perceived as "inadequate" we will suffer as well. It's all about perception and how the community manages it. Rgds BW From jon at ivt.com.au Thu May 22 11:53:01 2003 From: jon at ivt.com.au (Jonathan Oxer) Date: Thu May 22 11:53:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Perhaps it needs to be made more clear right up front what this doc is all about. I know that we don't want to validate SCO's spurious claims by restating them, but maybe it could start something like this (Based on Leon's first couple of paras): On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 10:56, Leon Brooks wrote: > === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure > to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa Cruz > Operation (SCO). > > The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before it > is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and > almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal > systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make > little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. becomes: Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) has recently made accusations of code plagiarism against developers involved with creation of the Linux kernel, which forms the core of the Gnu/Linux Free/Open Source operating system. These accusations appear designed to spread doubt within the business community over the continued viability of Linux as a mainstream operating system, by raising the spectre of a potential backlash by SCO against end users of the system. As a result, [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure to respond to these accusations and reassure the business community that widespread adoption of Linux is not only safe but inevitable. The principle argument behind SCO's accusation appears to be that Linux developers have used SCO source code to patch and improve the Linux kernel. However, the extensive quality control systems... [etc, continued from existing para] Just a thought. Cheers Jonathan From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 22 12:06:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 22 12:06:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:51:41PM +1000, Jonathan Oxer wrote: > As a result, [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing > membership pressure to respond to these accusations and reassure the > business community that widespread adoption of Linux is not only safe > but inevitable. > > The principle argument behind SCO's accusation appears to be that Linux > developers have used SCO source code to patch and improve the Linux > kernel. However, the extensive quality control systems... [etc, > continued from existing para] This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 22 12:43:02 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 22 12:43:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:05:03PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the > 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to > be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. Nebulous is right. I wonder if there could possibly be any trade secrets left in Unix after all this time and the publication of books such as Bernie Goodheart's. Maybe they can show how copyrighted code has been "borrowed", but I'd be surprised if there's more than a tiny bit that's arguable. Any assessment of damage would depend on a measuring the actual damage to SCO (small) and any exemplary or punitive damages would depend on a finding about intent. That brings the whole thing firmly into the world of politics. The co-incident annoucement of Microsoft licensing Unix from SCO, supposedly for improvement of its Unix Services for Windows product, becomes noteworthy in this context. After all, Microsoft are not neutral when it comes to Linux; and other than in the fevered dreams of Scott McNeally, Windows vs Unix is no longer an interesting battle. I suppose we'll have fun watching it play out in the courts and possibly create FUD in the minds of would-be corporate adopters of Linux... Chris From jon at ivt.com.au Thu May 22 13:12:01 2003 From: jon at ivt.com.au (Jonathan Oxer) Date: Thu May 22 13:12:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> Message-ID: <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 14:39, Chris Maltby wrote: > On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:05:03PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the > > 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to > > be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. Sure, but my point was primarily that the document should be reasonably self-explanatory to a PHB who doesn't know the background, but sees some headline that "SCO is suing Linux" and comes running to the IT department to make sure they "get rid of all that Linux software that was pirated from SCO". The IT dude should be able to point to the document, which the PHB then reads, breathes a sigh of relief that the allegations are a load of hogwash and he's not in any danger, and goes on about his business. > I suppose we'll have fun watching it play out in the courts > and possibly create FUD in the minds of would-be corporate > adopters of Linux... Problem is it's exactly that FUD that needs to be defused in the minds of the PHBs. Cheers Jonathan From maddog at li.org Thu May 22 13:15:02 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 22 13:15:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Maltby of "Thu, 22 May 2003 14:39:38 +1000." <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> Message-ID: <200305220517.h4M5Hahu001976@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I have been watching your conversations. I approve of your movement from one of stark "Let's rip their eyes out" to one of calming the businesses to let them know that "this too will pass". Know that IF this legal battle in the US is won by SCO, it will be on nits and examinations and on legal points of law. By any other measure SCO will be told to go pound sand. Therefore you have to be careful about what you say to the letter of the law. For example (and I am not purposely pointing out one individual's words, just giving an example): > The co-incident annoucement of Microsoft licensing Unix from SCO, > supposedly for improvement of its Unix Services for Windows product, > becomes noteworthy in this context. Microsoft can not license Unix from SCO, because SCO does not own Unix. SCO owns a code stream of licensed and sub-licensed code that came originally from AT&T. The BRAND and Trademarked term Unix is owned by the Open Group, and is used for branding many code streams as Unix compatible. The most that Microsoft could have licensed from SCO is insurance protection from SCO's patents and intellectual property that existed in that code stream, which is probably negligible or non-existent in Microsoft's code. By loosely using the legal terms, you lend some credibility to SCO's claims that the free software community does not (or can not) follow the rules. State your case simply and clearly, without pretending to know what the other person is thinking. Warmest regards, md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 22 14:38:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 22 14:38:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 8:56:49 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > In a way, I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't just buy SCO/Caldera > outright, Maybe that's not their goal? > but perhaps they have in mind waiting until SCO's value is less than > that of sand in the Sahara and meantime making friendly overtures > until the axe falls. Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied since the lawsuits were announced. > Yes, Michael Still, I think rolling AUUG in would also be a good > idea, pursuant to which I've added their "talk" list to this > message. Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on talk at . I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. > I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those > are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view > which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or LA's. This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. > If no Australian Linux or FOSS organisations agree on the content or > obviously want to take part, I'll make it a release from > CyberKnights Pty Ltd. I would prefer to see a harmonious public > chorus from our Linux, FOSS and business interests. I don't see why CyberKnights shouldn't make a statement too. > === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > Cruz Operation (SCO). I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. > The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before > it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and > almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal > systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make > little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. The second point is much more plausible than the first. Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to convince your audience. And that takes too long. > The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many > substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to > the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their > evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their > suit against IBM. > > One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of > processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on > 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many > people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux > performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on significant numbers of CPUs. Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case which some people would believe. > SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the > terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the > Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if > the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. We don't know that. They don't say how long. They don't say that the code which IBM supposedly introduced was actually in their distro. It might just have been in the development kernels. Since they don't say what it was, it's difficult to counter. > Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to > "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but > while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed software > itself for political reasons, their move does not validate SCO's > charges. This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised > more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL > than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous flame > of personal or corporate ambition. > > It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of > virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and > political senses. Wearing my devil's advocate horns, this somehow doesn't ring true. I'm not sure why, but I suspect that it won't be enough to counter SCO's FUD. You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say--I hope you'll agree with the points I made--but I haven't said very much myself. There's a good reason for that, and it's also the reason why AUUG hasn't made a stand on the subject: I'm still trying to understand the implications. But we need to be very careful about what we do say. Of one thing I am certain: this lawsuit *does* have the potential to do serious damage to Linux. Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. I do have a web page on the subject, at http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Note that these are my personal opinions and have no relationship to any official AUUG standpoint. Discussion welcome. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030522/9b61edb5/attachment.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 15:31:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 15:31:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied > since the lawsuits were announced. Only because the investors think they might get a substantial windfall, which IRL is extremely unlikely. > Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on > talk at . I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. True, but I've seen messages from you and Maddog, which is a roaring start. (-: >> I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those >> are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view >> which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or >> LA's. > This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and > Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) > statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD > is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. I guess we should cover some ground for them, then. (-: > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. True, they are now "The SCO Group" according to their website, having briefly been Caldera since their S-C-O days. >> The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass >> before it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively >> modify and almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The >> internal systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it >> would make little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into >> the other. > The second point is much more plausible than the first. Agree. > Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to at least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to start. > Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to > convince your audience. And that takes too long. Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how much time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. I think this will be as much as we can achieve without labouring the point, and I think we need to ping this concept occasionally anyway, since many PHBs assume no quality control and it's something that Microsoft pumps as often as it can. After the flood, no raindrop will admit responsibility. (-: >> The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many >> substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to >> the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their >> evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their >> suit against IBM. >> One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of >> processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on >> 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many >> people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux >> performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. > I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on > significant numbers of CPUs. They only claim 32 peak. > Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and > Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do > with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could > say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code > (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, > recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just > before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case > which some people would believe. That's precisely what SCO have said. Do you think we need to explicitly touch on input from SGI and others at this point? >> SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the >> terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the >> Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if >> the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. > We don't know that. They don't say how long. True. So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the Linux kernel". That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. >> Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to >> "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but >> while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed >> software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate >> SCO's charges. > This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. Agree. > By all accounts > Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a > license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, > they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being confusing? At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint that the description may not be accurate? >> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their >> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. > The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? Yes. Actions vs words. >> Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised >> more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL >> than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous >> flame of personal or corporate ambition. >> It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of >> virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and >> political senses. > Wearing my devil's advocate horns, this somehow doesn't ring true. > I'm not sure why, but I suspect that it won't be enough to counter > SCO's FUD. That's fine - as long as what we wind up with _is_ if not enough to counter, then enough to keep poor conclusions from being jumped at. > You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: > I hope you'll agree with the points I made Some of them. (-: > but I haven't said very much myself. > There's a good reason for that, and it's also the reason why AUUG > hasn't made a stand on the subject: I'm still trying to understand > the implications. But we need to be very careful about what we do > say. Of one thing I am certain: this lawsuit *does* have the > potential to do serious damage to Linux. Look at the effect on BSD > of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD > weren't even involved in that lawsuit. Agree. > I do have a web page on the subject, at > http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Note that these are my personal > opinions and have no relationship to any official AUUG standpoint. Ta! Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 22 15:36:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 22 15:36:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- /* * Sorry about the rampant cross-post, just felt it was important to clear up * some points in Greg's post. */ On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > > Cruz Operation (SCO). > > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. SCO who were the Santa Cruz Operation are now Tarantella, they sold their OS division to Caldera in 2001 and then changed the name. http://www.tarantella.com/about/history.html Caldera became The SCO Group in 2002, and there doesn't appear to be any mention of "Santa Cruz Operation" any more. They've actually just changed name again, on the 16th May the shareholders approved renaming the company "The SCO Group, Inc." instead of just "The SCO Group". http://www.sco.com/company/history.html > I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on > significant numbers of CPUs. You also need to be very clear about whether you are talking about SCO Unix or Unixware. The former is SCO's, the latter is the renamed System V Release 4 from USG that Novell had before they sold it to Caldera (and AT&T had before them). This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). > Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and > Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do > with the SCO code base. Don't get into the trap of confusing Unixware and SCO Unix! > This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts > Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a > license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, > they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. Microsoft has had copyright messages in System V since around 1987, because of the original SCO's work on Xenix which MS released in 1980 (remember that SCO did the work under subcontract for MS, and the fall out from this is why SCO took MS to the European Commission in the late 1990's. See the webpage at: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/tale.shtml for more). > > We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > > software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. > > The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for SCO Unix, Unixware or both. > Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. > FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsx9oI1yjaOTJg85AQFAkQgAoPhjn2ysKinGyg1uC4zj8f2WlLwAOO+8 RRMKRnw7eSk6wDO9ZIsOCxwfcX4gddAPCBYNDNHveiQy+UnIORYkCvm0/zDGgUT2 hm0rZSvDThklX5MXlk1lCcpaUHrQT9Gofuc29CA1pm8bSxzGpe90C3C97K2GBKEU UvH6nLq0IQZ8dLuvP8FJbllIC3C6Qtr8eJacpeaTOHQa0eMB5jGiHZPNOXVM7Rvb HzwuvAtRBb5jf2r2IUU6wIK92gMfAUZ6/h/lbLOq79Zik1FuxLz4Y7ZahXLYCvGD EEDyhLzFDeJc1nwdM82C0oknd1/hDusEXilr8i/HmjXB/PN8RmLXiQ== =XLnH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 16:00:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 16:00:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305221605.00185.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 15:34, Chris Samuel wrote: > * Sorry about the rampant cross-post Necessary, for a few days, methinks. >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of >>> their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. >> The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the > issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for > SCO Unix, Unixware or both. http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2000license.htm says "SCO OpenServer Release 5" on one entry and "SCO UnixWare 7" on another. The FP2002 pages don't even mention them. IMESHO it doesn't matter exactly which family they're from - although it would help if there were direct overlap - the key issue is that Microsoft reeled in their support for SCO products. Detailed clarification is probably overload for a press release unless it's critical to understanding a central issue. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 22 16:37:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 22 16:37:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >> significant numbers of CPUs. > > You also need to be very clear about whether you are talking about SCO Unix or > Unixware. The former is SCO's, the latter is the renamed System V Release 4 > from USG that Novell had before they sold it to Caldera (and AT&T had before > them). > > This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. After reading the complaint, I'm not sure what this case is about. But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software here. > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went > System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD > kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. > (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). It took Sun approximately until SunOS 2.5 to get reasonable SMP support. They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, also known as UnixWare). >> Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and Solaris do, but you can be >> pretty sure that that has nothing to do with the SCO code base. > > Don't get into the trap of confusing Unixware and SCO Unix! Not a hope. I was present at the launch of UnixWare (of which I also have a complete software set), and made a lot of money out of it. I sold Univel 10,000 CDs of free software (the software was free, the CDs weren't), and they only sold a fraction of that number of UnixWare licenses worldwide in the first year. >> This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts >> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > > Microsoft has had copyright messages in System V since around 1987, Yes, this was System V.3.2, which merged XENIX and (I think) SunOS 4 functionality into System V. Earlier versions weren't very compatible with XENIX. > because of the original SCO's work on Xenix which MS released in > 1980 (remember that SCO did the work under subcontract for MS, and > the fall out from this is why SCO took MS to the European Commission > in the late 1990's. See the webpage at: > > http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/tale.shtml > > for more). Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the background. Of course, some of the stuff is contradictory: Looking further back to 1980, we find Microsoft developing a commercial version of Unix called Xenix under license from AT&T. Actually, Microsoft didn't develop Xenix, though they did obtain a license from AT&T to do so -- and subcontracted the actual coding to SCO. By the time SCO acquired it, the archaic Xenix code had more than outlived its technical usefulness. One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users out there even today. >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their >>> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. >> >> The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > > Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the > issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for > SCO Unix, Unixware or both. It's a valid distinction, but I don't know how important it is. >> Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years >> ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. > > FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. Of course they did. I was there in the middle of it. The NetBSD project was founded on 21 March 1983. The FreeBSD project was founded on 19 June 1983 (and we're having a party at my place round then; watch this space). The initial complaint was filed on 20 April 1992, before 386/BSD had spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD, but it carried on until early 1994. > There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk > McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Yes, it's correct. To quote: Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to be freely redistributed. Thanks for the info. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030522/f00b2240/attachment.pgp From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 22 16:54:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 22 16:54:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 15:35:38 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied >> since the lawsuits were announced. > > Only because the investors think they might get a substantial > windfall, which IRL is extremely unlikely. I don't disagree, but it's possible that this was intended. >> Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on >> talk at . I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. > > True, but I've seen messages from you and Maddog, which is a roaring > start. (-: I think Maddog's on the Linux Australia list, not talk at auug.org.au. >>> I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those >>> are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view >>> which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or >>> LA's. >> >> This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and >> Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) >> statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD >> is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. > > I guess we should cover some ground for them, then. (-: Sure, go for it. >> Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. > > ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to at > least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to start. That's a valid intention, but is now the time? It's not relevant to the complaint, and it will tend to confuse people. I'd personally be more inclined to drop it. >> Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to >> convince your audience. And that takes too long. > > Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following > statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how much > time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. It might be worth making a core statement (can I say that without sounding like a policitian?), and maybe making some PS statements at the end. The question of QC should be a PS. > I think this will be as much as we can achieve without labouring the > point, and I think we need to ping this concept occasionally anyway, > since many PHBs assume no quality control and it's something that > Microsoft pumps as often as it can. After the flood, no raindrop > will admit responsibility. (-: Agreed, it's worth mentioning at some point. >> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >> significant numbers of CPUs. > > They only claim 32 peak. I'd like to see anywhere where they run on more than 4. They're Intel based, remember? >> Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and >> Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do >> with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could >> say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code >> (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, >> recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just >> before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case >> which some people would believe. > > That's precisely what SCO have said. Do you think we need to explicitly > touch on input from SGI and others at this point? I started writing something about SMP support, with particular reference to IBM, in my SCO page (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). I didn't say anything that isn't public knowledge (for example, Anton Blanchard's 7 second kernel compile using 24 of 32 CPUs, based on a paper presented at AUUG 2002). I know that Anton and the people he works with have had absolutely no exposure to AIX code. Even if they had, the best they could have done with it is to extract the ideas and rewrite it. That's not illegal, as you point out. Nevertheless, I then threw it out again because I was concerned that people could misinterpret it. >>> SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the >>> terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the >>> Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if >>> the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. > >> We don't know that. They don't say how long. > > True. So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the > Linux kernel". Yes, but that nullifies the effect of the statement. > That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need > said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. I think the fact that they've chopped their own kernel makes it pretty clear that they weren't making any money out of it. I think even the PHBs will appreciate that. Assuming that they have identified which parts of the kernel are contaminated, they could simply have reverted to an earlier, non-contaminated version. But I heard as long ago as last September that Caldera hadn't been making any money with Linux, which is why they changed their name back to SCO. > Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. The stuff they're complaining about could easily have been 2.5. >>> Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to >>> "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but >>> while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed >>> software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate >>> SCO's charges. > >> This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. > > Agree. > >> By all accounts >> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > > Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being confusing? > At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint that the > description may not be accurate? I'd be inclined to say pretty much what I just have. That the report is confusing and that the original intention may have been something completely different. There are various rights you can buy to source code. At one point I thought this meant that Microsoft had bought the rights to the UNIX code base from SCO, leaving SCO without those rights. I no longer think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure that a couple of layers of reporters have muddied the waters. >> You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say > > Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: I'd rather have made some positive suggestions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030522/473db0d2/attachment.pgp From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 22 17:02:01 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 22 17:02:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> > > There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk > > McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:05:50PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Yes, it's correct. To quote: > > Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by > Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would > rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of > 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had > dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further > prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points > were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January > 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 > that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes > were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add > USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to > be freely redistributed. > > Thanks for the info. There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on to add something like): One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A project was launched to identify the contributors of those borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in the System V source. Chris From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Fri May 23 07:58:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 23 07:58:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> Message-ID: <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 19:01:24 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: >>> There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk >>> McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: >>> >>> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html > > On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:05:50PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Yes, it's correct. To quote: >> >> Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by >> Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would >> rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of >> 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had >> dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further >> prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points >> were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January >> 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 >> that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes >> were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add >> USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to >> be freely redistributed. >> >> Thanks for the info. > > There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on > to add something like): > > One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to > have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and > so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source > code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A > project was launched to identify the contributors of those > borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in > the System V source. Are you sure of this? I did some work on syslogd (a BSD program) for a nameless System V vendor a couple of years after the lawsuit was settled, and there was no BSD license in the source. I added one, and it was removed again. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030523/ba983350/attachment.pgp From conz at cyber.com.au Fri May 23 08:01:23 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Fri May 23 08:01:23 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:34:56PM +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > /* > * Sorry about the rampant cross-post, just felt it was important to clear up > * some points in Greg's post. > */ > > On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > > > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > > > Cruz Operation (SCO). > > > > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. > > SCO who were the Santa Cruz Operation are now Tarantella, they sold their OS > division to Caldera in 2001 and then changed the name. > > http://www.tarantella.com/about/history.html > A few newish pieces which many have escaped the attention of memebers of this forum, and just to add flavour to discussions thus far :-) - - - - http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/05/22/1326239&mode=thread&tid=10 What is Microsoft really up to by licensing Unix from SCO for between 10 to 30 million dollars? I think the answer's quite simple: they want to hurt Linux. Anything that damages Linux's reputation, which lending support to SCO's Unix intellectual property claims does, is to Microsoft's advantage. Mary Jo Foley, top reporter of Microsoft Watch agrees with me. She tells me, "This is just Microsoft making sure the Linux waters get muddier They are doing this to hurt Linux and keep customers off balance. Eric Raymond, president of the Open Source Initative agrees and adds "Any money they (Microsoft) give SCO helps SCO hurt Linux. I think it's that simple." Dan Kusnetzky, IDC vice president for system software research, also believes that Microsoft winning can be the only sure result from SCO's legal maneuvering. But, he also thinks that whether SCO wins, loses, or draws, Microsoft will get blamed for SCO's actions. He's right. People are already accusing Microsoft of bankrolling SCO's attacks on IBM and Linux. ... Indeed, as Perens told me the other day, in addition to all the points that has already been made about SCO's weak case, SCO made most 16-bit Unix and 32V Unix source code freely available. To be precise, on January 23, 2002, Caldera wrote , "Caldera International, Inc. hereby grants a fee free license that includes the rights use, modify and distribute this named source code, including creating derived binary products created from the source code." Although not mentioned by name, the letter seems to me to put these operating systems under the BSD license .While System III and System V code are specifically not included, it certainly makes SCO's case even murkier. SCO has since taken down its own 'Ancient Unix' source code site, but the code and the letter remain available at many mirror sites . Given all this, I think Microsoft has done all they're going to do with SCO. They've helped spread more FUD for a minimal investment. To try more could only entangle them in further legal problems. No, SCO alone is responsible for our current Unix/Linux situation and alone SCO will have to face its day in court. - - - - http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-1007672.html - SCO says IBM's decision to contribute elements of AIX, its own Unix-based operating system, to the open-source community was unlawful. "IBM is obligated not to open source AIX because it contains SCO's confidential and proprietary Unix operating system and, more importantly, the code that is essential for running mission critical applications," the complaint says. - Without stating it outright, SCO implies that portions of the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries have been incorporated into Linux. "The mathematical probability of a customer being able to re-create the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries without unauthorized access to or use of the source code of the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries is nil," SCO says. - SCO alleges that IBM's Linux development efforts "misappropriated SCO's trade secrets" that Big Blue had acquired by licensing Unix from the SCO Group, which owns the intellectual property rights to the original Unix code created at AT&T's Unix Systems Laboratories. Additional confidential collaboration occurred, SCO alleges, when the two companies worked together on a plan called Project Monterey to build a new 64-bit Unix operating system for computers with Intel processors. When the onetime partners went their separate ways, in May 2001, IBM illegally "chose to use and appropriate for its own business the proprietary information obtained from SCO," SCO charges. - SCO says IBM's decision to spend a billion dollars on Linux development was the single most important factor in transforming Linux from a hobbyist platform into one that businesses would embrace. That could not have happened "without the misappropriation of Unix code, methods or concepts to achieve such performance," SCO says. Other allegations include unfair competition, breach of contract and tortious interference with contract. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From chris at sw.oz.au Fri May 23 08:53:01 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Fri May 23 08:53:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030523005017.GS2401@aurema.com> > On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 19:01:24 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: >> There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on >> to add something like): >> >> One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to >> have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and >> so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source >> code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A >> project was launched to identify the contributors of those >> borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in >> the System V source. On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 09:26:24AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Are you sure of this? I did some work on syslogd (a BSD program) for > a nameless System V vendor a couple of years after the lawsuit was > settled, and there was no BSD license in the source. I added one, and > it was removed again. Well, it may only be kernel contributions that ended up being attributed. Mine was for adding inode caching and hashed lookup in edition 6 days, which was circulated by BSD and included into edition 7... There was a reference to it as recently as 1998 in UnixWare, but not a specific copyright notice. Chris From enno at doc.metva.com.au Fri May 23 10:44:01 2003 From: enno at doc.metva.com.au (Enno Davids) Date: Fri May 23 10:44:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Hey guys, I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative thing I guess...) Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) Enno. (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 23 10:54:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 23 10:54:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305231059.25360.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 16:53, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality >>> control. >> ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to >> at least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to >> start. > That's a valid intention, but is now the time? It's not relevant to > the complaint I think it led directly to the complaint. If you read said complaint, they evidently don't believe that Linux is as good as SCO UNIX, let alone better than it. Since Linux can apparently beat SCO UNIX on every point, the argument that it's copying SCO UNIX ("chasing tail-lights") to do this is considerably weakened. Saying all of this this in a dozen words or less might be too hard. >>> Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to >>> convince your audience. And that takes too long. >> Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following >> statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how >> much time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. > It might be worth making a core statement (can I say that without > sounding like a policitian?), and maybe making some PS statements at > the end. The question of QC should be a PS. Again yes and no. If SCO didn't firmly believe that Linux's QC sucked, they wouldn't be doing this. OTOH, Sontag also stated that the offending code was not in the kernel.org sources so that QC argument may be moot. >>> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >>> significant numbers of CPUs. >> They only claim 32 peak. > I'd like to see anywhere where they run on more than 4. They're > Intel based, remember? ...and IRL 99% or more of their installs would be single-CPUs. Not many dual-Athlon cash registers around. > I started writing something about SMP support, with particular > reference to IBM, in my SCO page > (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). I didn't say anything that > isn't public knowledge (for example, Anton Blanchard's 7 second > kernel compile using 24 of 32 CPUs, based on a paper presented at > AUUG 2002). I know that Anton and the people he works with have had > absolutely no exposure to AIX code. Even if they had, the best they > could have done with it is to extract the ideas and rewrite it. > That's not illegal, as you point out. > Nevertheless, I then threw it out again because I was concerned that > people could misinterpret it. Touching on it carefully could be valuable, to make the point that SMP development did come from other than IBM. >> So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the >> Linux kernel". > Yes, but that nullifies the effect of the statement. Not really. It might annoy the odd careful reader, but the rest wouldn't even think about it. Again OTOH, Sontag's statement might require of us a different wording. >> That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need >> said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. > I heard as long ago as last September that Caldera hadn't been making > any money with Linux, which is why they changed their name back to > SCO. I think they got too greedy and priced themselves out of the market. In aviation terms, the price became too steep so they stalled. That per-seat idea wouldn't have been popular. >> Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. > The stuff they're complaining about could easily have been 2.5. IIRC, they also shipped (with source) a "technical demonstration" edition with an early 2.5 kernel on it. >>> By all accounts >>> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >>> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >>> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. >> Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being >> confusing? At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint >> that the description may not be accurate? > I'd be inclined to say pretty much what I just have. That the report > is confusing and that the original intention may have been something > completely different. There are various rights you can buy to source > code. At one point I thought this meant that Microsoft had bought > the rights to the UNIX code base from SCO, leaving SCO without those > rights. I no longer think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure that > a couple of layers of reporters have muddied the waters. Agree. >>> You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say >> Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: > I'd rather have made some positive suggestions. You did. Mission accomplished. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 23 11:16:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 23 11:16:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:35 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. > > After reading the complaint, I'm not sure what this case is about. My undertstanding from the court document, is that IBM mis-used the source code from their UNIX license (originally from AT&T) and from Project Monterey. It seems to boil down to: the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of SCO'S UNIX source code and libraries, and unauthorized misuse of UNIX methods, concepts, and know-how from paragraph 96 of the complaint. SCO's case isn't helped by the fact that they explicitly mention that IBM's OmniPrint services (para. 91 & 92) and JFS (para 92) - both of which (IBM says) were ported to Linux from the OS/2 codebase, not the AIX codebase. Mind you, they also quote Robert LeBlanc saying "We're willing to open source any part of AIX that the Linux community considers valuable. We have open-sourced the journal filesystem, print driver for the Omniprint." which seems to contradict what IBM say about the source of JFS & OmniPrint. But seeing as SCO seem quite happy to do things like put the words of someone else into RMS's mouth on their website then I'm not certain we can trust this quote either. > But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, > is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software > here. I had the misfortune to have it as one of the over a dozen UNIX variants on a compiler development network I was jointly managing in 1994. It was almost (but not quite) the worst out of all of them. It was the only one that didn't implement symbolic links for a start. :-( As an aside the worst was a Parsys transputer system running a Unix OS called, IIRC, Idris - the shutdown, halt and reboot commands didn't work so our MO for shutting it down was to do a shell script that continually called /bin/sync and flip the power off. We didn't turn it on very often at all. > > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went > > System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD > > kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V > > So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given > that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for > SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. This was told to me by either someone from Sun or a Sun reseller back around 94 or 95 as justification for why Sun went System 5 for Solaris. It wasn't popular where I was and so I'd been asked to find out why they'd done it. Here's an interesting (though not MP related) tidbit from version 1.74 of the Solaris 2.x FAQ by Casper Dik : SVR4.0, in turn, was developed jointly by AT&T and Sun while Sun was developing 4.1.0, which is why things like RFS, STREAMS, shared memory, etc., are in SunOS 4.1.x, and why things like vnodes, NFS and XView are in SVR4.0. (RFS, by the way, was dropped effective Solaris 2.3). > > (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). > > It took Sun approximately until SunOS 2.5 to get reasonable SMP > support. IMHO it took them to 2.5 before it was a reasonable OS. :-) > They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, > the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, > also known as UnixWare). OK - now I'm confused! I thought that the MP version was SVR4.2 MP ? [...] > One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their > product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. > It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes > still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of > course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's > still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, > had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users > out there even today. I'm afraid I was too badly traumatised by my experience with SCO in 94,95 to ever consider it anything like a reasonable OS. Even the HP-SUX 7 boxes we had weren't that bad. [...] > >> Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years > >> ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. > > > > FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. > > Of course they did. I was there in the middle of it. Mea culpa! According to McKusick the initial injunction against UCB and BSDI was heard in December 1992, and UCB counter-sued the week after (presumably still December 1992). The first NetBSD release was about 4 months after, whilst the case was still going. Sorry about my mistake. > The NetBSD project was founded on 21 March 1983. The FreeBSD project was > founded on 19 June 1983 (and we're having a party at my place round then; > watch this space). I presume the 83 is a typo for 93. :-) > The initial complaint was filed on 20 April 1992, > before 386/BSD had spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD, but it carried on until > early 1994. OK - understood. Thanks for that. [...] > Thanks for the info. Not a problem, thanks for the corrections! cheers, Chris, proud owner of a "Free the Berkeley 4.4" t-shirt (Novell version, didn't get in early enough for a Death Star one) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPs2SXY1yjaOTJg85AQE6Iwf7B7OWkn39HdeX3Idvxe9uRmp6YMF46K+H TfZ3s5G5uEIRRnp7bGUfPURojv/5pdzKmtvS+kcammrLEfNDSL++QlzcgsAu1i8b axs8aLHnKk/pqlP1Qk2LpanW7c9Jlp6YaGNsVGwfhfdvCbTUpfWlTWFAdiR0ph93 qQZyfUeutOhuaZrFS3839PfLiivTFrOiQ+kwSabiQyjdmrnpvXrPCGp23KE50wz5 CDp2DGyJun6YCBjlokIzuUmmV02hBowhxn8hWCwDzqa2+xMjly6hqKGgL/PgWz7C Btcj00iG4+TWvSMGh5iACatDbBZzLhG2L2Dp7/Nh8euY7mvRcde/4Q== =wBu4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 23 11:19:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 23 11:19:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305231318.49497.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:53 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I started writing something about SMP support, with particular > reference to IBM, in my SCO page (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). Personally I would point out that the people who bought the first dual CPU system for Alan Cox to develop SMP on were Caldera, now SCO. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPs2TGI1yjaOTJg85AQFDuAf/dvGA/DNcJowXuDOzvXy4M8u56Jwtk1rE AOdMmAV9WdGDQ5+MIYOxw5tIAs4u2y1RxpI/kkf6JpUbZvVT6JLhs6ap9z4C1kIx JwFQf0goByeKNWUWYJ8I/mll+Lw20IBlDgoKXB+IO6CijPIfcrsZ55eOC/2Qnbey LbvRt4D1F0HIK41HEFjUALh2CPLnMTe1zEh5jscnOKr1Jvrr/zTdvHvDkICsrymW Ac6MVVqqEAuvI1BUwHTOLbzRK1pvfyihqW5RUJV/maTOVGc2CtgPowuFXqiJqWvl CoZnHSVo+qKvlMMNA9GS2ekgqAl6l41riZXrXabJsAMQJvVhBQae3Q== =fRJM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Fri May 23 11:33:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 23 11:33:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030523033156.GJ80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 23 May 2003 at 13:15:41 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:35 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > My undertstanding from the court document, is that IBM mis-used the source > code from their UNIX license (originally from AT&T) and from Project > Monterey. It seems to boil down to: > > the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of SCO'S UNIX > source code and libraries, and unauthorized misuse of UNIX methods, > concepts, and know-how > > from paragraph 96 of the complaint. > > SCO's case isn't helped by the fact that they explicitly mention that IBM's > OmniPrint services (para. 91 & 92) and JFS (para 92) - both of which (IBM > says) were ported to Linux from the OS/2 codebase, not the AIX > codebase. Indeed. > Mind you, they also quote Robert LeBlanc saying "We're willing to > open source any part of AIX that the Linux community considers > valuable. We have open-sourced the journal filesystem, print driver > for the Omniprint." which seems to contradict what IBM say about the > source of JFS & OmniPrint. Yes. IBM's right, of course. The JFS that IBM released was internally known as JFS 2; it's a greatly improved version of the AIX JFS ("JFS 1"). While at IBM, I wrote a JFS 1 file system for Linux. It's clear from what little I saw of it that JFS 1 was derived from FFS (BSD). Despite the fact that it wasn't original UNIX source code, and despite the fact that I was an IBM employee, I was not allowed to see the AIX code. If I had been allowed, I wouldn't have dreamed of copying it: I just wanted to understand how it worked. For example, a JFS 1 inode only has space for on indirect block pointer. It turns out that if the file is 16 MB in size or less, it points to a single indirect block; if the size is greater, it points to the double indirect block. That would have been so much easier to understand if I had been allowed to see the source. >> But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, >> is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software >> here. > > I had the misfortune to have it as one of the over a dozen UNIX variants on a > compiler development network I was jointly managing in 1994. It was almost > (but not quite) the worst out of all of them. It was the only one that didn't > implement symbolic links for a start. :-( That was more common earlier on. Symbolic links were one of the things that System V.4 imported from BSD with UFS. >> They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, >> the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, >> also known as UnixWare). > > OK - now I'm confused! I thought that the MP version was SVR4.2 MP ? Why should you be left out? :-) But you could be right. I've heard people claim that SVR4.2 was the multiprocessor version of SVR4, and others say that it was the desktop version. It's possible that neither of them knew the complete functionality. >> One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their >> product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. >> It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes >> still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of >> course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's >> still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, >> had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users >> out there even today. > > I'm afraid I was too badly traumatised by my experience with SCO in 94,95 to > ever consider it anything like a reasonable OS. Even the HP-SUX 7 boxes we > had weren't that bad. By then the stuff was *completely* out of date. I used SVR[23] in the late 80s and early 90s, and by comparison XENIX had some nice features. It was still a pig to install. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030523/fbb8e006/attachment.pgp From lui at fgcint.com Fri May 23 12:39:02 2003 From: lui at fgcint.com (Luigi Cantoni) Date: Fri May 23 12:39:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Message-ID: <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> This certainly has been a great history lession. I agree with Enno just a general statement of support and that people (organisations) should have nothing to fear. Maybe something like because it is open and all code can be seen then anyone can easily point to the exact piece and say it is mine. Until that is done and proven there is no problem. I assume that no one has actually said these 100's of lines of code right here are the ones copied from what xxx had. Luigi Cantoni On Fri, 2003-05-23 at 10:42, Enno Davids wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns > about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, > it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and > say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details > or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) > > Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever > worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources > whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its > extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer > community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative > thing I guess...) > > Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue > statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that > it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a > generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual > property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) > > > Enno. > > > (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things > that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their > large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits > disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this > case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot > of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk mailing list > Talk at auug.org.au > http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Luigi Cantoni From adam at saki.com.au Fri May 23 12:51:02 2003 From: adam at saki.com.au (Adam Donnison) Date: Fri May 23 12:51:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Message-ID: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> I too have been watching from afar (as it were). I'm wondering who the audience of any statement would be? If it were to go to the general public then it might be worth condensing the comments from Eric Raymonds paper which essentially would boil down to a press release something like: SCO resorts to dirty tricks to lessen Linux SCO, in what they are hoping will be characterised as a David and Goliath contest, have started procedings against software giant IBM in an attempt to gain lost ground to the now well entrenched Linux operating system. In what can only be characterised as a farago of mistruths, misdirections and outright fabrications, SCO is attempting to claim that IBM, by its multi-billion dollar investment in the free operating system Linux has infringed SCO's IP rights. (short description of what Linux is, what the stakes are, what the actual claim is). The idea is to try and point out that SCO has alterior motives, and is not the lilly-white injured party it tries to portray. It has to be done in short sentences, and without too much detail, in order to get it into the space requirements of most publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than 400 lines, forget it. Just my 2c worth. Adam Enno Davids wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns > about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, > it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and > say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details > or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) > > Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever > worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources > whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its > extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer > community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative > thing I guess...) > > Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue > statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that > it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a > generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual > property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) > > > Enno. > > > (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things > that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their > large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits > disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this > case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot > of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk mailing list > Talk at auug.org.au > http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Adam Donnison email: adam at saki.com.au Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd. 93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512 THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098 From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 23 12:58:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 23 12:58:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523142701.39d9443b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Adam, > publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means > go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than > 400 lines, forget it. For those who get excited writing thesis, though, there's no harm in having a umpteen-thousand word white paper to refer the interested to... DSL - -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+zaodNBhAwwyvg/kRAtGpAKCIFa4ekYiATQNCmOG8tY5LBC/ldACdGb5S I8+HL4d+dMAoM8yA6IgWhuc= =Ocn7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at sw.oz.au Fri May 23 13:01:02 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Fri May 23 13:01:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 02:49:05PM +1000, Adam Donnison wrote: > I too have been watching from afar (as it were). I'm wondering who > the audience of any statement would be? If it were to go to the > general public then it might be worth condensing the comments from > Eric Raymonds paper which essentially would boil down to a press > release something like: > > SCO resorts to dirty tricks to lessen Linux > > SCO, in what they are hoping will be characterised as a David and > Goliath contest, have started procedings against software giant > IBM in an attempt to gain lost ground to the now well entrenched > Linux operating system. > > In what can only be characterised as a farago of mistruths, > misdirections and outright fabrications, SCO is attempting to > claim that IBM, by its multi-billion dollar investment > in the free operating system Linux has infringed SCO's IP rights. > > (short description of what Linux is, what the stakes are, what > the actual claim is). I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > The idea is to try and point out that SCO has ulterior motives, > and is not the lilly-white injured party it tries to portray. > It has to be done in short sentences, and without too much > detail, in order to get it into the space requirements of most > publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means > go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than > 400 lines, forget it. And attribute it to someone with a title. > Just my 2c worth. Chris From andrae.muys at braintree.com.au Fri May 23 13:06:02 2003 From: andrae.muys at braintree.com.au (Andrae Muys) Date: Fri May 23 13:06:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> Message-ID: <3ECDABDC.806@braintree.com.au> Luigi Cantoni wrote: > This certainly has been a great history lession. > > I agree with Enno just a general statement of support and that people > (organisations) should have nothing to fear. > > Maybe something like because it is open and all code can be seen then > anyone can easily point to the exact piece and say it is mine. Until > that is done and proven there is no problem. > > I assume that no one has actually said these 100's of lines of code > right here are the ones copied from what xxx had. > I was thinking about this issue this morning, and it occurred to me that there is probably very little to be gained by "expressing support" for linux. After all, this will hardly surprise anyone. OTOH a press release accusing SCO of anti-competitive behaviour in refusing to substantiate their accusations of wrong doing during the development of the Linux Kernel; Calling on SCO to release specific allegations of wrong doing, or abstain from vague threats and rumour mongering. One constructive thing we could do would be to attack SCO's allegation that the Linux Kernel Developers could somehow "Launder" their code to avoid the legal challange. That not only is such an accusation of dishonesty offensive, but physically impossible due to the millions of copies of the source code distributed in line with Linux's Open Source principles. Andrae P.S. Yeah I always prefer counter-attack to defense... how could you tell? ;) -- Andrae Muys But can it generate *quantum* Haiku error messages, in Latin, where each Engineer line of the error message is a Braintree Communications palindrome? -- Mike Vanier on perl From adam at saki.com.au Fri May 23 13:22:01 2003 From: adam at saki.com.au (Adam Donnison) Date: Fri May 23 13:22:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> Message-ID: <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> Chris Maltby wrote: > > I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: > > According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby > group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > Thats as long as Greg is happy to say those things :-) Adam -- Adam Donnison email: adam at saki.com.au Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd. 93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512 THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098 From Murray.Jensen at csiro.au Fri May 23 13:27:02 2003 From: Murray.Jensen at csiro.au (Murray Jensen) Date: Fri May 23 13:27:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <13366.1053667576@ull> On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:39 +1000, Enno Davids writes: >it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and >say that the allegations are untrue. Have a read of this: http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html - the title is "OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint" (where OSI stands for Open Source Initiative). The authors are Eric Raymond and Rob Landley. Interesting reading and might be a good reference for people wanting some in-depth analysis of the complaint. Cheers! Murray... -- Murray Jensen, CSIRO Manufacturing & Infra. Tech. Phone: +61 3 9662 7763 Locked Bag No. 9, Preston, Vic, 3072, Australia. Fax: +61 3 9662 7853 Internet: Murray.Jensen at csiro.au Hymod project: http://www.msa.cmst.csiro.au/projects/Hymod/ To the extent permitted by law, CSIRO does not represent, warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained or that the communication is free of errors, virus, interception or interference. The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential or privileged. Any unauthorised use or disclosure is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please delete it immediately and notify Murray Jensen on +61 3 9662 7763. Thank you. From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 23 15:41:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 23 15:41:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au Message-ID: I've just completed the (not so trivial) task of mailing all of the linux user groups as listed on www.linux.org.au/usergroups/. Hopefully they will all get back to me with their up to date information so I can put together the new (and more accurate) user group listing site. If you know of any group whose information is either missing or incorrect on the current site, please get them to contact me and I'll make sure the new and correct details are on the new one. rock on, ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Fri May 23 17:03:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 23 17:03:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523090206.GS80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 23 May 2003 at 15:20:38 +1000, Adam Donnison wrote: > Chris Maltby wrote: >> >> I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: >> >> According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby >> group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > > Thats as long as Greg is happy to say those things :-) Give me a chance to find a dictionary. Seriously, we're discussing it. We're all a bit upset about what's going on, but as an organization representing all UNIX users, it's not clear what we should do. We can certainly point out factual errors, but since we haven't seen many facts, that's not going to be worth much. I'll know more after the board meeting tomorrow. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030523/96e0a8a8/attachment.pgp From steve at DigitalSmarties.com Fri May 23 17:16:01 2003 From: steve at DigitalSmarties.com (Steve Landers) Date: Fri May 23 17:16:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030523090206.GS80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <0BE3BD68-8CFF-11D7-98B3-00039305E9C6@DigitalSmarties.com> Folks, On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 05:02 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Seriously, we're discussing it. We're all a bit upset about what's > going on, but as an organization representing all UNIX users, it's not > clear what we should do. We can certainly point out factual errors, > but since we haven't seen many facts, that's not going to be worth > much. I'll know more after the board meeting tomorrow. There is also the danger of appearing reactionary. If the objective is to give help keep people comfortable, and remove the FUD factor then there's plenty of material in ESRs position paper on the OSI site (http://www.opensource.org). Personally, I'd point to that rather than argue the case ourselves. One strategy is to quote people like ESR thus "well respected Open Source advocates like Eric Raymond have pointed out numerous factual errors and inconsistencies ... blah blah blah". Then, in the unlikely event that SCO has a case and it is proven, AUUG will at least have some credibility left ;-) Cheers Steve -- Steve Landers Software Design Solutions Digital Smarties steve at DigitalSmarties.com Perth, Western Australia DigitalSmarties.com From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 23 17:57:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 23 17:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030523081725.GB4343@linmagau.org> Message-ID: On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > I would be very happy if you would copy me a list of al the actual ones > like "live" you get to respond.. for when we start tothink about > distribution.. that way may save Kim lots of work :) I plan to have a pretty simple data file, or SQL table so i can probably grab out the list of emails pretty easily, and there shouldn't be a problem handing this over to you (esp considering you could just grab it of the website anyway). > Thanks > Kim np - glad can help :) ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From jdub at perkypants.org Fri May 23 20:41:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Fri May 23 20:41:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au In-Reply-To: References: <20030523081725.GB4343@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030523101950.GI1990@lazarus> > On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > > >I would be very happy if you would copy me a list of al the actual ones > >like "live" you get to respond.. for when we start tothink about > >distribution.. that way may save Kim lots of work :) > > I plan to have a pretty simple data file, or SQL table so i can probably > grab out the list of emails pretty easily, and there shouldn't be a > problem handing this over to you (esp considering you could just grab it > of the website anyway). It might be interesting to note which organisations replied quickly, provided more information, etc., so that the search for ready and willing contributors / volunteers for LA (or even linmagau) stuff can be... "prioritised". ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ I don't know whose brain child it was, but it was quite an ugly child. From andrewr at iagu.net Sat May 24 07:12:01 2003 From: andrewr at iagu.net (Andrew Rutherford) Date: Sat May 24 07:12:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: At 6:05 PM +0930 22/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went >> System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD >> kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V > >So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given >that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for >SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. At the time (I still have some old Sun press releases for amusements sake, plus some email conversations with Sun employees at the time), Sun were trying to get more of a focus and business and less in education/engineering, and believed that SysV had a much greater following in the business world (were they thinking about SCO? That would be a great irony!), and having a system based on code generally thought to be made by "tinkerers" rather than "software professionals" would be a hindrance in their push into the high-end business market. > >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > >>> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. Given the aforementioned tiff between Microsoft and SCO, with SCO removing their Xenix code which was there to support Microsoft, is it any wonder that Microsoft dropped support? Even if just to prove a point - "they removed support for our code, so we're not coding for their platform any more." -- Andrew Rutherford sip:andrewr at iagu.net 244 Pirie Street Iagu Networks tel:+61-8-8425-2255 Adelaide SA 5000 http://www.iagu.net/ mailto:andrewr at iagu.net Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Sat May 24 18:24:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Sat May 24 18:24:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: SCO position, rationale and AUUG - dropping SCO OS support In-Reply-To: References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305241830.48016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sat, 24 May 2003 07:10, Andrew Rutherford wrote: > Original Leon wrote: >...> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of >...> their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on >...> Linux. > Given the aforementioned tiff between Microsoft and SCO, with SCO > removing their Xenix code which was there to support Microsoft, is it > any wonder that Microsoft dropped support? Even if just to prove a > point - "they removed support for our code, so we're not coding for > their platform any more." We're not talking about a decade ago (although at the time Xenix was the next Great White Hope for Microsoft and every MS employee's desktop had a Xenix terminal), we're talking current products. For example, FrontPage 2000 extensions list OpenServer and OpenUnix (and AIX) as no longer supported; FrontPage 2002 doesn't mention them. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From mail at alexlog.nl Sun May 25 00:01:01 2003 From: mail at alexlog.nl (Alex Geus) Date: Sun May 25 00:01:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] A dutch Perception Message-ID: <0HFE00194F164A@smtp03.wxs.nl> Hi, During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work. Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low. By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you. Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-). With Regards, Alexander Geus mail at alexlog.nl Netherlands) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030525/b6746e9f/attachment.htm From mail at alexlog.nl Sun May 25 01:23:02 2003 From: mail at alexlog.nl (Alex Geus) Date: Sun May 25 01:23:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] A Dutch Perception with suitable URL Message-ID: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> Hi, the previous mail contains a wrong URL.Correction is done in this mail. Sorry for the inconvenience. During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work. Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low. By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you. Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-) With Regards, Alexander Geus mail at alexlog.nl Netherlands Europe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030525/65966251/attachment.htm From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Sun May 25 08:26:01 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Sun May 25 08:26:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] A Dutch Perception with suitable URL In-Reply-To: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> References: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <20030525100043.1d8e3ec9.lloy0076@adam.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alex, > With Regards, Alexander Geus mail at alexlog.nl > Netherlands Europe. Your site looks interesting however under Mozilla 1.3.1 it renders really badly. Specifically the text at the bottom (April 17th down) doesn't place itself correctly. I'm not sure why though :-) HTH - -- Sing a new song, chiquitita! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+0A6zmk7m2JX6ki4RAhe2AJ9RyvplSH0BGVUk01ZhYf8r5PeZdwCgjzf+ SQCM/wBPlFt/20YD/DQ3yqc= =Ak+J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Sun May 25 09:18:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sun May 25 09:18:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030525011719.GX80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Saturday, 24 May 2003 at 8:40:57 +0930, Andrew Rutherford wrote: > At 6:05 PM +0930 22/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went >>> System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD >>> kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V >> >> So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given >> that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for >> SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. > > At the time (I still have some old Sun press releases for amusements > sake, plus some email conversations with Sun employees at the time), > Sun were trying to get more of a focus and business and less in > education/engineering, and believed that SysV had a much greater > following in the business world Yes, that was my recollection from things we heard at Tandem. We were just getting on the System V bandwagon ourselves, and we looked at Sun with great suspicion. > (were they thinking about SCO? That would be a great irony!), No, I don't think so. My recollection at the time was that Intel-based UNIX was looked on as something of a toy. When we *did* start using UNIX on Intel, it was In(ter)active UNIX, not SCO, which we looked upon as a strange hybrid with Microsoft. > and having a system based on code generally thought to be made by > "tinkerers" rather than "software professionals" would be a > hindrance in their push into the high-end business market. Yes, I think this is quite valid. At the time we also used some of the "Berkeley extensions" like TCP/IP. Others include FFS in the list of extensions, though we didn't implement it. The impression I got at the time was that BSD UNIX was pretty crappy, though it contained some good ideas. It wasn't until I actually got my hands on it (BSD/386, in March 1992) that I was surprised to find how much better it worked than Interactive UNIX/386. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030525/e0bd3413/attachment.pgp From greebo at pacific.net.au Mon May 26 06:56:02 2003 From: greebo at pacific.net.au (Pia Smith) Date: Mon May 26 06:56:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Message-ID: <1053903177.2358.89.camel@fehung> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 15:11, Jonathan Oxer wrote: > The IT dude should be able to point to the document, which the PHB then > reads, breathes a sigh of relief that the allegations are a load of > hogwash and he's not in any danger, and goes on about his business. I'd suggest that bug companies don't trust their IT dudes that much, especially when it is legal stuff between big companies. Its not so much a problem of can we prove this, its a matter of companies feeling there isn't a problem. Pia From greebo at pacific.net.au Mon May 26 07:10:01 2003 From: greebo at pacific.net.au (Pia Smith) Date: Mon May 26 07:10:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, or at least be damned familiar with what they say. Is it more effective to shoot 1000 bullets or to combine our efforts into a bomb? I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem that we are avoiding the claims made. Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better than fiddly details about code or Microsoft claims (neither of which a business or person outside the community either wants to hear or will understand). My 2c Pia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Mon May 26 09:21:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Mon May 26 09:21:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: > It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the > opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, Yes, but not just duplicating what they say or there is no point. > Is it more effective to shoot 1000 bullets or to combine our > efforts into a bomb? That depends on the situation. One bomb in thick jungle is next to useless because the foliage absorbs the shock. Chasing the analogy further, nuclear bombs do not scale linearly because the bigger the bomb is, the more of its energy is wasted fighting itself - you get a hotter, denser core to the explosion but not much more damage. Binding the analogy back to real life again, I think we need to make some combined statements which support rather than replicate the existing efforts. Analogous to ringing the original detonation with a salvo of small bombs. > I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, > but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no > proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem > that we are avoiding the claims made. Good idea. But would it defuse (or diffuse) our efforts at all if I carefully crafted a me-only corporate statement which looks askance at Microsoft's response and released it either before or after a group response? As I hear it the fee they paid to SCO was of the order of 10-20 million dollars, chicken feed to Microsoft but apparently not far short of the paper value of SCO. The obvious message behind that is that they like what SCO's doing and are keeping the company alive as long as they are a nuisance to Linux and to IBM. I'd like to make my own separate statement along the lines of "it's next to impossible to be sure, but it looks to our corporate cynical eyes as if..." because me losing global karma points isn't going to be the problem it would be for LA/AUUG/SLPWA/etc. I do want to make points which our groups want to keep clean hands on, but don't want it to detract from any group statement. > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents all) would be a good foundation for a release. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From bowden at iinet.net.au Mon May 26 10:31:01 2003 From: bowden at iinet.net.au (Tim Bowden) Date: Mon May 26 10:31:01 2003 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread] Message-ID: <3ED17CCD.7040807@iinet.net.au> Leon Brooks wrote: >On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: > > >>It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the >>opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, >> >> > >Yes, but not just duplicating what they say or there is no point. > > > If you want to know about getting a message out, particularly to an audience who is not tuned in to you, just ask a politician how it is done. They are masters at it. Don't forget the old political adage 'tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them what you have told them'. I remember a radio interview with an old hand at labor campaigning and he made the comment that by the time you have told your message so many times you are sick of saying it, and you imagine the public are groaning in protest at having to hear it again, then they are only just beginning to get the message. Repeating the message ad nauseam is worthwhile. That's why politicians do it and why advertisers do it. It is human nature for most people to accept with less than rigorous analysis something they have heard many times, even if it is demonstrably wrong with just a little thought. If you want your message accepted, keep telling it. Your audience is not tuned in to you until you bombard their senses. Sad but true. Just my 2c Tim Bowden From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Mon May 26 16:09:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Mon May 26 16:09:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Monday, 26 May 2003 at 9:27:17 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: >> I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, >> but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no >> proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem >> that we are avoiding the claims made. > > Good idea. But would it defuse (or diffuse) our efforts at all if I > carefully crafted a me-only corporate statement which looks askance > at Microsoft's response and released it either before or after a > group response? I don't know. I think we should coordinate our efforts, anyway. > I'd like to make my own separate statement along the lines of "it's > next to impossible to be sure, but it looks to our corporate cynical > eyes as if..." because me losing global karma points isn't going to > be the problem it would be for LA/AUUG/SLPWA/etc. I do want to make > points which our groups want to keep clean hands on, but don't want > it to detract from any group statement. This is a very different aspect from what we've been talking about. I'm not saying "don't do it", but it makes it clearer how we should proceed. Each of us has a different perspective of the problem. >> Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, >> and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > all) would be a good foundation for a release. At the AUUG board meeting on Saturday, we discussed the matter and came to the conclusion that AUUG and Linux Australia should make a press statement about the matter. We discussed whether this should be a joint statement or separate statements and came to the conclusion that we probably wouldn't be able to agree on the wording of a joint statement quickly enough, so we'd probably have to issue separate statements. I expressed the opinion that I would like the statements to be as similar as possible, but the others are probably correct when they say that this would be very difficult. I intend to put our statement past the LA board before publishing, however, and I hope they do the same. Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030526/929c0d7b/attachment.pgp From andrewr at iagu.net Mon May 26 16:35:02 2003 From: andrewr at iagu.net (Andrew Rutherford) Date: Mon May 26 16:35:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: At 5:38 PM +0930 26/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >At the AUUG board meeting on Saturday, we discussed the matter and >came to the conclusion that AUUG and Linux Australia should make a >press statement about the matter. We discussed whether this should be >a joint statement or separate statements and came to the conclusion >that we probably wouldn't be able to agree on the wording of a joint >statement quickly enough, so we'd probably have to issue separate >statements. I expressed the opinion that I would like the statements >to be as similar as possible, but the others are probably correct when >they say that this would be very difficult. I intend to put our >statement past the LA board before publishing, however, and I hope >they do the same. Also discussed was that although we would probably come up with different wordings and so two different press releases, there's no reason why the two different press releases could not be released jointly to help attract media attention. (If you can follow the noun versus verb distinctions in the above - "release" is a little overloaded. :-) It always helps if two different items about the same thing land on a journalists desk at the same time, so they can write an article taking the bits they like from both, having references to two statements in their article: "AUUG say this" and "Linux Australia say this" - it (hopefully) makes much more compelling reading. Short form: If we can't co-ordinate the words 100%, let's at least co-ordinate the timing. :-) -- Andrew Rutherford sip:andrewr at iagu.net 244 Pirie Street Iagu Networks tel:+61-8-8425-2255 Adelaide SA 5000 http://www.iagu.net/ mailto:andrewr at iagu.net Australia From Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au Mon May 26 18:32:02 2003 From: Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm) Date: Mon May 26 18:32:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <1053945053.1112.889.camel@jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au> > > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > all) would be a good foundation for a release. I am going to write something proper about all this, although I'm trying to write a submission on ACCC's Internet interconnection enquiry at the same time, hence my apparent slackness. You could use this as a soundbite I guess, or edit it to suit: "Vice Chairman of the Society of Linux Professionals (WA), Jeremy Malcolm, states, 'Much like British Telecom's recent failed patent enforcement claim in which it sought royalties for the use of hyperlinks on the Web, SCO's lawsuit against IBM is an opportunistic attempt to cash in on the burgeoning success of an operating system that has proved more popular, better-supported and more innovative than SCO's own. In a disingenuous and hypocritical claim built upon a succession of documented factual errors, SCO has risen to the forefront of those companies willing to employ fear, uncertainty and doubt as their primary weapons in the competitive race. It is only to be hoped that SCO's legal argument will be demolished like the house of cards that it is before too many corporate users of Linux are unnecessarily driven to adopt inferior operating systems.'" -- JEREMY MALCOLM Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 301 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030526/ec429fab/attachment.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Tue May 27 06:19:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Tue May 27 06:19:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305270819.00835.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the > stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? It appears to have been said by McBride in an interview, possibly with CNET News.com - article with offending quote is here: http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-999371.html This article from the good people at LWN seems to support that the chat was with CNET: http://lwn.net/Articles/31302/ perhaps an email to the journalist, Stephen Shankland , would confirm this ? good luck! Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtKS041yjaOTJg85AQFNyQgAtfghT/MqoQ/c5JxB3dn1m+1qDP8nxctT OA8EVvANUrBRKi235e8QthPOp6Q5K6bWaSB7e63JQF1nMj0IEnCXvRAXZ21XhT4z tID8WilpHRMEWfNpucdNTeKu8p09rJgAfgD+xw6O4JcMzqrigjnr1zD8wOaZVPyI Dy4PbcDUierKGH657Psn2+vGJrGWNvweA9+LbWthE/quZIu41HMDU/ZEwq8PVHX9 Qh8SxQwclqqTWZhL+y1QFZTi3OoQUrz3WFVA0FBZEp0l5ptQv0/cYrPvtiumn8tT FG+KOmdy89DgvM52ijw1D9jb/PaDkPgLGGDMjPP8MkXoqJKLqhw/BQ== =pvI7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Tue May 27 07:42:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Tue May 27 07:42:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the > stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? A very interesting development found via slashdot. LinuxTag have decided to set their lawyers onto SCO by issuing an "Abmahnung" - basically a legal warning to stop doing something that they feel is banned under Germanys unfair competition laws. For more details see [1] at the end of the email. Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? The LinuxTag.de "Abmahnung" requires SCO to either withdraw the claims about copied code, or make the evidence public, or face the court, with a deadline of the 30th May. Here's the text of the LinuxTag.de press release (the english version): http://www.linuxtag.org/2003/en/press/releases.xsp?id=3 English Version: LinuxTag has given notice to SCO Group GmbH to desist from unfair competitive practices Lawyers representing the LinuxTag association have given notice to SCO Group GmbH to desist from unfair competitive practiices. The notice, dated Friday, May 23, maintains that SCO Group is sowing uncertainty among the community of GNU/Linux users, developers and suppliers. "SCO needs to stop claiming that the standard Linux kernel violates its copyrights, or they need to lay the evidence for their claim on the table," said LinuxTag's Michael Kleinhenz. The association demanded that the German SCO subsidiary retract its claims regarding ownership of Linux kernel code by this Friday, May 30, or make its evidence public. "SCO must not be allowed to damage its competitors by unsubstantiated claims, to intimidate their customers, and to inflict lasting damage on the reputation of GNU/Linux as an open platform," Kleinhenz added. Until a few weeks ago, SCO itself distributed the Linux kernel GNU General Public License (GPL) as a member of the UnitedLinux alliance. Thus even if SCO owns parts of the Linux kernel, it has made them into Free Software by distributing them under the GPL. "This situation illustrates the superiority of the Free Software licensing model: If a software manufacturer withdraws from the development of GPL software, its contributions that were published under the the GPL up to that time remain available to users," said J?rgen Siepmann, attorney and founding member of LinuxTag. Till Jaeger, Director of the Institute for Legal Aspects of Free and Open Source Software, agrees: "Companies see this as an important pillar of investment security." There's a lot of heat and noise on Slashdot about this, especially where people don't understand the German law system, so I dug around a bit (thanks to Google) and found this explanation in English about what exactly an "Abmahnung" is. http://www.avrio.net/allcountrys/NewsAreasCivil.html Here's hoping that SCO will be forced to put up or shut up.. cheers! Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtKmG41yjaOTJg85AQHKbAf+NIwJaqgSq0fux+JQNG2R37KvHAGcJgd7 TpkSJLpwmAOkD9Mvd68x6Rd3y0P/fOQ1y9o5dJRQK7TlFt02zrQ3wMxSGZcXwcbI WfI661B25Qr2lIGll7Bm3g0GjKV76rtGtuiqphIUTA7Q88YhFJtQ6BObdSJcQN+5 eSF/27uA3rXf5pcSwsMmq2GtnWW77zZ4iHyxuQ8LEM8TmZyivF1eqVi9/PU42w08 rvY7A6hFZjrAB2eGbQ7yZfoTO1M9EKMeoLI4Pj0YxLGc3linUTsht4QYsJPuda2e Gi2wb8kNGf9avQABsFT58IQbeVHs+IXkODRCUnjAMpIbJV1InOhRtA== =OCzQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au Tue May 27 07:59:02 2003 From: Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm) Date: Tue May 27 07:59:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <1053993483.802.8.camel@jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au> On Tue, 2003-05-27 at 07:41, Chris Samuel wrote: > Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for > one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? It means the injunction is sought in the absence of the other party, usually due to urgency or because the purpose of the injunction would be defeated if the other party knew about it. BTW I sent another email to these lists but I mis-spelled talk at auug.org.au as task at auug.org.au, so here is another copy of it: On Mon, 2003-05-26 at 18:30, Jeremy Malcolm wrote: > > > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > > > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > > all) would be a good foundation for a release. > > I am going to write something proper about all this, although I'm trying > to write a submission on ACCC's Internet interconnection enquiry at the > same time, hence my apparent slackness. You could use this as a soundbite > I guess, or edit it to suit: > > "Vice Chairman of the Society of Linux Professionals (WA), Jeremy Malcolm, > states, 'Much like British Telecom's recent failed patent enforcement > claim in which it sought royalties for the use of hyperlinks on the Web, > SCO's lawsuit against IBM is an opportunistic attempt to cash in on the > burgeoning success of an operating system that has proved more popular, > better-supported and more innovative than SCO's own. In a disingenuous > and hypocritical claim built upon a succession of documented factual > errors, SCO has risen to the forefront of those companies willing to > employ fear, uncertainty and doubt as their primary weapons in the > competitive race. It is only to be hoped that SCO's legal argument will > be demolished like the house of cards that it is before too many > corporate users of Linux are unnecessarily driven to adopt inferior > operating systems.'" -- JEREMY MALCOLM Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 301 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030527/2da901be/attachment.pgp From kim at linmagau.org Wed May 28 20:25:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Wed May 28 20:25:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] More on SCO :) This time from AUUG Message-ID: <20030528122425.GA7983@linmagau.org> PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE AUUG CALLS FOR SCO TO CEASE DESTRUCTIVE ACTIONS AUUG Inc. calls on SCO to cease its destructive actions and to work toward the constructive resolution of intellectual property issues. SYDNEY, Australia -- 28 May 2003 -- The Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group (AUUG, Inc.) today called on SCO (formerly Caldera) to cease its destructive actions and work toward the constructive resolution of any intellectual property (IP) issues SCO has with the Linux and Open Source communities. AUUG further called on SCO to publicly identify any IP violations in Linux so the issues can be resolved as soon as possible. The full release on the PLUG site :) http://www.plug.linux.org.au Gordon Hubbard, Treasurer and Press Secretary for AUUG Inc. advises the release will be on the AUUG pages ASAP :) Regards Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org From bob at fots.org.au Wed May 28 23:19:01 2003 From: bob at fots.org.au (bob) Date: Wed May 28 23:19:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. Message-ID: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records reveals that Novell owns those patents." "Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it." Plus many more quotable quotes. -- It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 28 23:29:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 28 23:29:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. In-Reply-To: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> References: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> Message-ID: <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> > Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html > > "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must > know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records > reveals that Novell owns those patents." And SCO's response: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030528/law059_1.html Bruce Perens saying nice things about Novell: http://www.perens.com/Articles/SCO/BigLie.html I'm glad no one has been silly enough to send out a press release so far. :) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Consensus is whatever the developers remember or agree with." - Paul Vixie, Open Sources From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 29 08:43:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 29 08:43:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. In-Reply-To: <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> References: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030529004150.GL15241@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 01:27:29AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V > > > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html > > > > "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must > > know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records > > reveals that Novell owns those patents." > > And SCO's response: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030528/law059_1.html > Indeed. SCO never claimed a patent issue case. Hoever, from the press release: Copyrights and patents are protection against strangers. Contracts are what you use against parties you have relationships with. From a legal standpoint, contracts end up being far stronger than anything you could do with copyrights. SCO's lawsuit against IBM does not involve patents or copyrights. SCO's complaint specifically alleges breach of contract, and SCO intends to protect and enforce all of the contracts that the company has with more than 6,000 licensees. Translates to: We can only ever sue IBM, and not Red Hat, Suse nor normal Linux users, as it's only IBM whom we have a contract with that we claimed they breached. Therefore, our public comments threatening these other enteties is legal hot air, which we are spouting to scare people off Linux, but which we cannot actually take further. We know this, as evidenced by this press release response to Novell, yet we continue to spread fear and doubt. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 29 09:07:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 29 09:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: [Talk] Novell the Red Knight... Message-ID: <200305290916.00962.leon@cyberknights.com.au> FYI ---------- Forward; originally to talk at auug.org.au ---------- Subject: [Talk] Novell the Red Knight... Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:36 From: David J N Begley To: talk at auug.org.au In case there's anyone left who hasn't already seen this, Novell has come out swinging (hard) against SCO and its claims against IBM and Linux. In short, Novell accuse SCO of falsely claiming ownership of UNIX intellectual property (pointing to public records and business correspondence indicating Novell still owns same) in order to "sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt ... in order to extort payments from Linux distributors and users". Novell goes on to reiterate strong support for Linux and open source. This, of course, raises some rather embarrassing questions about Microsoft "supporting intellectual property ownership" by giving money to SCO recently. The Novell press release: http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html The inevitable Slashdot follow-up: http://slashdot.org/articles/03/05/28/1252229.shtml?tid=123&tid=130&tid =185&tid=190&tid=99 Anyone writing any press release for AUUG should probably take this major development into account. Interesting times indeed... _______________________________________________ Talk mailing list Talk at auug.org.au http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 29 11:15:01 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 29 11:15:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 27 May 2003 at 9:41:15 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the >> stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? > > A very interesting development found via slashdot. LinuxTag have decided to > set their lawyers onto SCO by issuing an "Abmahnung" - basically a legal > warning to stop doing something that they feel is banned under Germanys > unfair competition laws. For more details see [1] at the end of the email. > > Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for > one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? Probably nothing. It's the *translation* of a legal term. All legal terms are only relevant in their context. That's why the term Abmahnung can't be translated in legal context, because the concept doesn't exist in English or Australian law (I believe; IANAL). The original German term is "einstweilige Verf?gung", which means, roughly, a temporary decree. The intention here is to stop people from doing something which could be detrimental to the interests of one party until the case can be handled in court. Contrary to what the reference implies, German courts are *very* slow, and the einstweilige Verf?gung is intended to defuse this problem by providing immediate relief for the interim. Einstweilige Verf?gungen can, indeed, be issued within hours. So what does ex-parte mean? In legal terms, that means made or executed on one side only. I assume in this case it's the judge who acts alone without more than a modicum of proof. I'll leave it to others to decide whether this is a good translation. > The LinuxTag.de "Abmahnung" requires SCO to either withdraw the > claims about copied code, or make the evidence public, or face the > court, with a deadline of the 30th May. Interestingly, you don't have to be an involved party to issue an Abmahnung. There's a lawyer in M?nchen (Munich) who lives off issuing Abmahnungen to people who use names in "inappropriate" ways. Some years ago there was an Intel processor chip set called Triton. As I commented in the zeroth edition of "The Complete FreeBSD", Triton is not a trade mark of Intel Corporation. It is a trade mark of some other company which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with computers. Unfortunately, an overly zealous German lawyer has taken to suing people who use this name to refer to the chipset. Sheesh. This was done with Abmahnungen. Getting back to my original question, I have since spoken with Kieran O'Shaughnessy about the matter. The results, some of which are interesting, are in the latest revision of http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030529/97c36ef5/attachment.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 29 12:18:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 29 12:18:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305291416.37897.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 29 May 2003 1:13 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Interestingly, you don't have to be an involved party to issue an > Abmahnung. There's a lawyer in M?nchen (Munich) who lives off issuing > Abmahnungen to people who use names in "inappropriate" ways. The same happened to the guy who was developing killustrator, which had to be renamed to kontour (now looks like it's been replaced with Karbon14 in KOffice). Not Reinhard Skuhra Weise & Partner by some chance ? - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtWJpI1yjaOTJg85AQG89wf/eYA5WcI6g15E/HenAagNJLfAsddSvTih J+lGX1pYyJA8PftE4PxyeiRQHUrfGHgT0KDc3GSU/lmfZjKEIS8eAHyMe0poARKe W05jMxWGh8zzaiJss/qrTmtyFPWtwKyetqmUMt8EruWyILewaJ43VHp/fsm+SSVh XcZHOVvrEPyA6QoLZJb2PIv3KF48G196LwBHsY2NxNbg4NzmBs925YwqQxdB1Xmi Yz74oeiUI2KD8TItT50t0G5WJKtrmHIEeuMh7n6V2LPg2CnNWDHULOGTIGShSy3z ONU8Al1U1mQqDxaJzT8hShhaeHonKjAAtxzU2N5/K0FCy7Z8H5w2Lw== =Quh+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 29 13:01:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 29 13:01:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality Message-ID: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- OK - so: - - Novell say SCO doesn't own the copyrights or patents to UNIX. - - The US Patent Office says SCO doesn't own the patents to UNIX. - - SCO say that their case against IBM doesn't involve patents (in their response to Novell) about UNIX. - - SCO says the whole deal is about (AT&T originated) UNIX. and then: - - SCO's chairman says that SCO may sue Linus for patent infringement. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BC408959E-005A-4E93-9006-B32DCD1FCA22%7D McBride added that unless more companies start licensing SCO's property, he may also sue Linus Torvalds, who is credited with inventing the Linux operating system, for patent infringement. Who do they think they're kidding ? Interestingly SCO's share price dropped by 24% (as can be seen on SCO's own website currently - http://ir.sco.com/ - it shows them at 6.60 down 24% - lowest was $5.85). Here's a wild dream, IBM and Novell team up, buy SCO, GPL UNIX and release patents for general use... Yeah, I know, pretty wild dream.. :-) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtWTb41yjaOTJg85AQGRkAf/Ze+HULZ5CKfnEwiqyGspxanK5mATf6C/ dnmOBPWAXEWHqDimfdJlskdZ/Sn8S/61fSIzUgHZoPvbocspgoHqIIHoadJpoDmU pYUkrlUta2F1AQmkppbKmnd6Zpy88fzCbOtC3mwxAoVkp7vXIJll70PUyaKzHGUy VvNKGhGJoh1yTPkcH3qBn4xGJHLu/xoTHs2qtaMc+kWt/BbjkElAGiNScIyMSIlK egNx/H5XHk3hWMUEG2QGfyDHFwp7rW7ze8r0TIglzBwhcYtr5NN81nMHRCEqDuYI V2HybkQV937LDaaxh8FGcQv2BUod25Z51GIS4coAwvIugnhv4mPAMg== =S4te -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au Thu May 29 13:11:01 2003 From: xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Thu May 29 13:11:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality In-Reply-To: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 02:28 PM, Chris Samuel wrote: > Here's a wild dream, IBM and Novell team up, buy SCO, GPL UNIX and > release > patents for general use... Yeah, I know, pretty wild dream.. :-) SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in people walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind this /is/ to be bought out. I think they've pissed off enough people at both aforementioned companies for this to be a reality anymore. R - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 PH: +61 418 186 604 IRC: xf / irc.openrejects.net "Oh no, not again." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+1ZYrRcxk39PM6wcRAm5qAJ91PwDh++OXfoT0lXfbcP9NOGy3YwCeOmcs BW/VRhFN61VSilk1rD2uTW8= =ql3g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 29 14:17:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 29 14:17:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list Message-ID: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Hi all, With the renewed level of interesting conversation on linux-aus, and its status as a gathering area for everyone interested in Linux Australia, the new 'lug' list has not been in use. I think the LUGs are a crucial part of Linux Australia's constituency and community responsibility, so we should try and make the most of this list... I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum for the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to organise country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make sure that LA continues to represent the entire country. - A place to discuss inter-LUG cooperation, events, experiences, etc. Of course, much of LA's communication should be directly to linux-aus, available to the entire community. A private 'lug' list should not cause the LA ctte to be less transparent. Hopefully it will enhance communication between LA and the LUGs, and between the LUGs themselves, which will have flow-on effects for the entire community. I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but private forum. Thanks, - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "I love 2001. Especially the beginning with the proto-humans screaming at each other and beating each other to death with rocks and bones. That very neatly encapsulates my whole concept of interpersonal relationships." - Branden Robinson From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu May 29 14:30:02 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 29 14:30:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030529160548.7c72667e.lloy0076@adam.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Good idea...perhaps Stewart (Vice President) and you can liaise with each other to make it so ;-) DSL -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1apEmk7m2JX6ki4RAkDvAJsGlDk+evQ7cSPSmZQM+9qXqHdgaQCgq9zo INkamrn2RTC3b8UMU7uS4Ao= =E2PU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 29 14:33:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 29 14:33:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality In-Reply-To: References: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030529063010.GF26623@lazarus> > SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in people > walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind this > /is/ to be bought out. It is frustrating to see them royally barfing up their own story all the time, when I would far prefer to see us showing them up for the miserable twats they are. Why must they do such an excellent job of it, denying us our rightful satisfaction? :-) I must admit that I'm having a hard time mustering an intelligent response to the situation any more. It is just so hilariously deplorable. Must refocus. ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but don't be gagged. The time of trial is always." - John J. Chapman From bhards at bigpond.net.au Thu May 29 17:28:02 2003 From: bhards at bigpond.net.au (Brad Hards) Date: Thu May 29 17:28:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <200305291922.10772.bhards@bigpond.net.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16 pm, Jeff Waugh wrote: > - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make sure > that LA continues to represent the entire country. This is a problem for C(anberra)LUG, which has no formal representatives. Is a lug- list really needed? I see LUGs as really important, but don't see where the distinction between the linux-aus list and a lug- list should be drawn. Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1dFCW6pHgIdAuOMRAgGtAJ9dGuaSrzlSVVcvEBg6PE88oTH4BQCgo9Kt K41kHsSWr6YEf6P4MpELn8o= =0QdI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mikal at stillhq.com Thu May 29 17:46:02 2003 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Thu May 29 17:46:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum for > the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: Brad is correct as to the structure of CLUG. One possible solution is to subscribe the CLUG list to the LUG list, but this strikes me as defeating the purpose. > - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to organise > country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. In the past I have offered to be a CLUG contact, but only so long as other CLUG members remain comfortable with this. This was the case with LCA 2003. Tridge is another obvious candidate, but he gets quite busy... > I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the > ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but private > forum. Perhaps some form of moderation for non-subscribers then? That way, a CLUG concern can still be raised, without us seeing the rest of the content. Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal at stillhq.com) | Stage 1: Steal underpants http://www.stillhq.com | Stage 2: ???? UTC + 10 | Stage 3: Profit From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 29 18:05:02 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 29 18:05:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: This is also my vision for the lugs list. Maybe in an email out to all the LUG people (who have responded to me saying that their LUG is active) I'll point this out and ask them to join it so that we can have wider communication between LUGs (and LA). yay jeff for speaking my mind for me :) On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 04:16 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi all, > > With the renewed level of interesting conversation on linux-aus, and > its > status as a gathering area for everyone interested in Linux Australia, > the > new 'lug' list has not been in use. I think the LUGs are a crucial > part of > Linux Australia's constituency and community responsibility, so we > should > try and make the most of this list... > > I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum > for > the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: > > - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to > organise > country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. > > - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make > sure > that LA continues to represent the entire country. > > - A place to discuss inter-LUG cooperation, events, experiences, etc. > > Of course, much of LA's communication should be directly to linux-aus, > available to the entire community. A private 'lug' list should not > cause the > LA ctte to be less transparent. Hopefully it will enhance communication > between LA and the LUGs, and between the LUGs themselves, which will > have > flow-on effects for the entire community. > > I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the > ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but > private > forum. > > Thanks, > > - Jeff > > -- > GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland > http://www.guadec.org/ > > "I love 2001. Especially the beginning with the proto-humans > screaming > at each other and beating each other to death with rocks and bones. > That very neatly encapsulates my whole concept of interpersonal > relationships." - Branden Robinson > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 29 18:09:18 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 29 18:09:18 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality In-Reply-To: <20030529063010.GF26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> I'm starting to imagine John Cleese walking rather sillily around the room while saying stuff about the SCO case and I'm laughing just as hard as if he was talking about the budget for the Ministry of Silly Walks. arguably the SCO stuff is funnier. it's getting a bit hard to take the piss, they're doing a fine job on their own. On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 04:30 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > >> SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in >> people >> walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind >> this >> /is/ to be bought out. > > It is frustrating to see them royally barfing up their own story all > the > time, when I would far prefer to see us showing them up for the > miserable > twats they are. Why must they do such an excellent job of it, denying > us our > rightful satisfaction? :-) > > I must admit that I'm having a hard time mustering an intelligent > response > to the situation any more. It is just so hilariously deplorable. > > Must refocus. ;-) > > - Jeff > > -- > linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia > http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ > > "Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but > don't > be gagged. The time of trial is always." - John J. Chapman > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From tony at linuxworks.com.au Thu May 29 20:59:01 2003 From: tony at linuxworks.com.au (Tony Nugent) Date: Thu May 29 20:59:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] linux wins in Munich Message-ID: <200305291257.h4TCvXgK016456@gandalf.linuxworks.com.au.nospam> A change of subject with some good news: Microsoft down and out in Munich http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/30912.html Microsoft loses city of Munich deal to Linux http://www.forbes.com/home_europe/newswire/2003/05/28/rtr984204.html Cheers Tony From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 29 21:20:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 29 21:20:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030529131837.GH26623@lazarus> > Perhaps some form of moderation for non-subscribers then? That way, a CLUG > concern can still be raised, without us seeing the rest of the content. I think it would be really important for CLUG to be involved 'properly'. We'll have to figure out a neat way of supporting CLUG's structure somehow. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "It's not sufficient to 'use simple words to explain things'. Things must actually *be* simple, which is much harder." - Martin Pool From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 30 16:14:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 30 16:14:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality: another 10% off today In-Reply-To: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305301617.58507.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 29 May 2003 12:58, Chris Samuel wrote: > Interestingly SCO's share price dropped by 24% (as can be seen on > SCO's own website currently - http://ir.sco.com/ - it shows them at > 6.60 down 24% - lowest was $5.85). Another 9% down today, but looks flat. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SCOX&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l Wonder what the bunch of trading was late Thursday/early Wednesday, just before the plunge? People who knew the dip was coming? Or a SCO director cashing in on the bloated price? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 30 16:18:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 30 16:18:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality - Hazzardous In-Reply-To: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <200305301620.47488.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 29 May 2003 18:07, Stewart Smith wrote: > I'm starting to imagine John Cleese walking rather sillily around the > room while saying stuff about the SCO case and I'm laughing just as > hard as if he was talking about the budget for the Ministry of Silly > Walks. http://www.arie.org/doh/ It's not John, but maybe Bo and Luke will tickle yer funnybone enough? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 30 20:22:02 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 30 20:22:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Debian 10th birthday celebrations (was Re: next meeting) In-Reply-To: <20030530095137.GC16703@regression.cyrius.com> Message-ID: <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 07:51 PM, Martin Michlmayr wrote: > * An?bal Monsalve Salazar [2003-05-30 > 08:58]: >>> FWIW, Japanese or Chinese sounds good to me. >> Would you like to set a date? > > I'm busy the next 3 weeks and then leaving to the States and Europe. > I will be back in August -- just in time to celebrate Debian's 10th > birthday which is on August 16th. We should definitely plan a party > for that (but if you want to go out for lunch/dinner in the meantime, > no problem). Maybe a synchronized nation-wide birthday bash could be organized? That could attract some more attention from the general community/media and raise our profile in Australia. There's also been the mention of doing something at LCA04 for a belated debian birthday do. Don't quote me on details though, i saw a dot point :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Fri May 30 20:36:01 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 30 20:36:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Debian 10th birthday celebrations (was Re: next meeting) In-Reply-To: <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <20030530095137.GC16703@regression.cyrius.com> <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030530221152.307902d7.lloy0076@adam.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stewart, > There's also been the mention of doing something at LCA04 for a > belated debian birthday do. Don't quote me on details though, i saw a > dot point :) A belated Debian birthday at LCA-2004? /me ponders - -- He saw himslf as alive... And I saw him dead! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+11GQmk7m2JX6ki4RAiTjAKDSaSuQUFa2UMFveH6ro78TJEaOPgCfWVPV geeH+3cZkaGo7YkS0UGwhV4= =PG+a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 1 10:08:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 1 10:08:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: IBM launches project to boost open source use Message-ID: <200305011007.56415.leon@cyberknights.com.au> ---------- Forward; originally to "echalk List" ---------- Subject: IBM launches project to boost open source use Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:20 From: "Kim Flintoff" To: "echalk List" IBM launches project to boost open source use By Online Staff April 30 2003 IBM Australia has announced a three-year project to focus on increasing the performance of open source software like Linux to facilitate the movement of such software into enterprise computing. The project will be the first under a new initiative - the Centre for Advanced Studies (CAS) - which was announced by the company in Sydney today. The CAS aims to consolidate the amount - over $40 million - which IBM invests in national research each year. The project will be carried out in collaboration with the Federal Government's ICT Centre of Excellence. The CAS, the first outside North America, will give Australian researchers access to the company's worldwide research resources. IBM's 15 existing research relationships/projects in Australia will now come under the centre's programme. The project will be undertaken by National ICT Australia (NICTA) at its University of New South Wales site. The initial phase will involve seconded staff, as well as PhD and honours students from the University. IBM Australia CEO Philip Bullock said: "Open source is key to the future of business as it enables greater levels of connectivity and integration within an organisation and with its business partners, customers and suppliers." This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/30/1051381980670.html ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030501/95d1e19c/attachment-0001.htm From bhards at bigpond.net.au Thu May 1 16:29:01 2003 From: bhards at bigpond.net.au (Brad Hards) Date: Thu May 1 16:29:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership Message-ID: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Below is a message I sent to Pia Smith in response to a message sent to everyone that attended LCA2003. Since a month has passed and I have received no response, I'll go wider. Note that I have editted it slightly to correct spellos. On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? Brad - - - - On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57, Pia Smith wrote: > ___________________________________________ > > > Welcome to Linux Australia. > > As you may (or may not) be aware, your Linux Conf Au 2003 registration > included membership to Linux Australia. Nice idea, but I think it is illegal. Because being a member carries certain obligations, people can't be members without their explicit consent - it is a common law issue relating to how to two people cannot act to bind a third person (or something like that - IANAL). Also, it is unconstitutional: (1) An application by a person for normal membership of the association: (a) must be made by a member of the association in writing in the form set out in Appendix 1 to these rules; and (b) must be lodged with the secretary of the association. Appendix 1 shows that the application needs to be signed by the applicant, which clearly hasn't been done for all the "auto-members". Thoughts? Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sNn2W6pHgIdAuOMRAqO9AJ9Uc0w6onTUNcSwrpShN4AzY1LWSACeNf2j ExuoFYANUNZOSK2PKbfS6XA= =MMA3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 1 17:03:27 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 1 17:03:27 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> Hi Ian, As this is of general interest (more general than education), it's probably more appropriate on the linux-aus mailing list. Thanks, - Jeff > This notice has just appeared in the Linux SA mailing list. > _____________________________ > I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat > spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is > introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. > > In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: > > > 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about > > the procurement of computer software for its operations, > > have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a > > public authority should use open source software in > > preference to proprietary software. > > I've put up his draft speech at > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/oss-bill/and > put up the bill at > http://www.linuxsa.org.au/oss-bill/open-source-bill.pdf > > For the Bill to move forward, it needs support from the > Government or the Opposition (or both!), so if you want to > lobby your local member of Parliament to support it, I think > that would be a good thing. Any political-type people have > any suggestions on doing this? I gather that you can find > your local member of Parliament at: > http://www.seo.sa.gov.au/apps/news/?year=2002 > _____________________________ > > Cheers, Ian -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Women are too irrational to be crazed killers anyway." - Angus Lees From maddog at li.org Thu May 1 20:25:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 1 20:25:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: Message from Brad Hards of "Thu, 01 May 2003 18:25:25 +1000." <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <200305011225.h41CP55m001286@localhost.localdomain> Hi, USENIX in the United States has a check box on the form that allows the person to elect membership when they register for the conference. The members conference fee plus membership fee usually is equal to the non-members conference fee, but there is the concept of "value transferred" and "election". md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From james at rcpt.to Fri May 2 07:29:02 2003 From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger) Date: Fri May 2 07:29:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <20030501232644.GA908@phobe.internal.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au> Brad Hards (bhards at bigpond.net.au) wrote: > Below is a message I sent to Pia Smith in response to a message sent to > everyone that attended LCA2003. Since a month has passed and I have received > no response, I'll go wider. Note that I have editted it slightly to correct > spellos. > > On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57, Pia Smith wrote: > > As you may (or may not) be aware, your Linux Conf Au 2003 registration > > included membership to Linux Australia. > Nice idea, but I think it is illegal. Because being a member carries certain > obligations, people can't be members without their explicit consent - it is a > common law issue relating to how to two people cannot act to bind a third > person (or something like that - IANAL). Well, IIRC from the haze and flashing lights that was LCA2003, there was a membership form to be returned to the then LCA committee to give consent, no? I know I madly made sure mine was filled in and handed to Anand at the time. > Appendix 1 shows that the application needs to be signed by the applicant, > which clearly hasn't been done for all the "auto-members". > > Thoughts? IMHO, the 'auto-members' is the pickup for those that were given membership, and didn't bother to fill in the form. So, the question is, if our there are people who were given memberships and did not fill them in, do they: (a) get a membership anyway (b) get prompted via email saying "you got a free membership, but you should have filled in the form in the conference pack. We cant find yours; please complete by return email"... (c) get forgotten since they couldn't be bothered (however some may have been misplaced??) OK, off to bed. 00:26 BST (+0100). Regards, James -- James Bromberger www.james.rcpt.to Remainder moved to http://www.james.rcpt.to/james/sig.html I am in London on UK mobile +44 7952 042920. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030502/186050bd/attachment-0001.pgp From president at linux.org.au Fri May 2 09:02:33 2003 From: president at linux.org.au (Pia Smith) Date: Fri May 2 09:02:33 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> Hi all, First of all, an apology to Brad for not getting back to him sooner. Unfortunately our responses are not always as prompt as we'd like, but we are getting through quote a few :) On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 18:25, Brad Hards wrote: > On what basis is the automatic membership considered constitutional? One of the first things we discussed was the consitution and how legit the preceedings at LCA Perth were. The decision was made by the previous committee in an attempt to jump start the organisation to be something better for everyone. All people who attended LCA had on their receipt notice of their free membership to LA, with the idea that if anyone didn't want it, they could let LA know. As James mentioned we also had the forms to fill out in the LCA bags, and we received quite a few of them back, we also had a few people wish to not be a member, so they were taken off the membership. Jons suggestion for the "Do you want free Linux Australia membership" check box on the registration page is an excellent idea (hence this being forwarded to lca2004 organisers :) thanks Jon!) and certainly takes care of the current issue for next year. We have a team of people (headed by Stewart) who are working on what exact constitution changes need to be made, and we will be presenting them at the next AGM to sort it all out. Anyone with an interest is welcome to email him or the committee. Unfortunately, at the end of the day it is already done. We really want to do what we can for the community, and build this organisation into something useful and interesting for the Australian Linux community. Hopefully we can get all the internal stuff sorted out this year so that next year Linux Australia will not have the same problems :) Our minutes are now up publicly under "Committee News" at http://linux.org.au We've had them publicly accessible for a while but they weren't anywhere sane until recently. Thanks and regards, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From conz at cyber.com.au Fri May 2 09:27:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Fri May 2 09:27:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 06:44:37PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi Ian, > > As this is of general interest (more general than education), it's probably > more appropriate on the linux-aus mailing list. > > Thanks, > > - Jeff > > > > > This notice has just appeared in the Linux SA mailing list. > > _____________________________ > > I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat > > spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is > > introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. > > > > In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: > > > > > 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about > > > the procurement of computer software for its operations, > > > have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a > > > public authority should use open source software in > > > preference to proprietary software. Much as I'd like to see free software in widest possible deployment, I don't believe this approach is the most effective. There's too much that can easily be attacked as partisan, which will cause many politicians who would otherwise have supported such law, to back off. It's also too easy for well leveraged vested interest groups to (appear) justifiably antagonistic towards. I would posit that the most effective case to be made in this country (other countries will need different tactics) is to push for the following: 1) All government bodies should only use technologies for which file formats and network communication protocols are open and documented. 2) Preference should be given to technologies for which there are multiple vendors, helping better position future government purchasing tactically and avoiding vendor lock-in and price gouging. 3) Preference should be given to technologies for which there is is a case to be made that local industry can benefit, and that import replacements can be reduced, helping improve our balance of trade imbalance. Simply by implementing such a rule-set in state and federal purchasing policy, we will see FOSS acquisition skyrocket. Note, FOSS was not even mentioned. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From pia at linux.org.au Fri May 2 09:42:26 2003 From: pia at linux.org.au (Pia Smith) Date: Fri May 2 09:42:26 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Legality of automatically assigning membership In-Reply-To: <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> References: <200305011825.26112.bhards@bigpond.net.au> <1051836411.22494.3610.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <1051837744.22494.3647.camel@fehung> Sorry, just to clarify one point: On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 10:46, Pia Smith wrote: > We have a team of people (headed by Stewart) who are working on what > exact constitution changes need to be made, and we will be presenting > them at the next AGM to sort it all out. Anyone with an interest is > welcome to email him or the committee. The draft of changes will be presented to the membership as per the constitution (21 days notice for a special resolution). We hope to have enough open discussion to make the changes agreeable to everyone, and then have a new improved constitution for next year. Thanks again, -- Pia Smith From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 2 13:22:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 2 13:22:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Fri, 2 May 2003 09:26, Con Zymaris wrote: >...> Ian Loxton wrote: >...> I'm told that the Hon. Ian Gilfillan MLC (Democrat >...> spokesperson for Science and the Information Economy) is >...> introducing a Bill to support Open Source Software today. >...> In a nutshell, the Bill (if successful) will require: >...> 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about >...> the procurement of computer software for its operations, >...> have regard to the principle that, wherever practicable, a >...> public authority should use open source software in >...> preference to proprietary software. > Much as I'd like to see free software in widest possible deployment, > I don't believe this approach is the most effective. In essence, I agree. I think I would rather see partisan feather-ruffling legislation than no legislation, given that several proprietary vendors are outstanding in their field for a no-holds-barred no-quarter ends-justify-the-means approach to winning contracts and we have no fair counter to that. I base my approach on the idea that sailing in any direction is a step ahead of being becalmed. However, I'm willing to be convinced that it's a bad idea in this case, since it might be very hard to amend or excise bad legislation because many pollies wouldn't see the need to distinguish and would rather see the problem stay fixed, however badly. > It's also too easy for well leveraged vested interest groups to > (appear) justifiably antagonistic towards. > I would posit that the most effective case to be made in this country > (other countries will need different tactics) is to push for the > following: > > 1) All government bodies should only use technologies for which file > formats and network communication protocols are open and > documented. > 2) Preference should be given to technologies for which there are > multiple vendors, helping better position future government > purchasing tactically and avoiding vendor lock-in and price > gouging. > 3) Preference should be given to technologies for which there is a > case to be made that local industry can benefit, and that import > replacements can be reduced, helping improve our balance of < trade imbalance. Agree all around. How about suggesting an alternative like this: 17A. (1) A public authority must, in making a decision about the procurement of computer software for its operations, have regard to these principals: 17A. (1a) a public authority has a moral obligation to strongly prefer technologies and products for which all protocols, structures and formats are completely and accurately documented and that documentation is available to the public without restriction; and 17A. (1b) technologies should be preferred if they are available from multiple independent vendors, and requirements for technologies and products should as far as reasonably possible be laid out in terms of functionality rather than brands or individual products; and 17A. (1c) technologies should be preferred if they include an Australian component, and particularly substantial local creative input, or their adoption would favourably influence Australia's balance of trade. Not sure whether to explicitly state in (1a) that source code counts as implicit documentation, or rely on people having brains in exchange for keeping the wqording simpler. > Note, FOSS was not even mentioned. Aye, no target to shoot at, no zealots to castigate. And any attack will have to be considerably more subtle, especially if we can subtext the discussion of each point with its advantages. Is there such a thing as a comment field for legislation, or do we have to rely on people looking up Hansard or the like? Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's official Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows of a better palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From g at netcraft.com.au Fri May 2 13:41:02 2003 From: g at netcraft.com.au (Geoffrey D. Bennett) Date: Fri May 2 13:41:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <20030501084437.GE31770@lazarus> <20030502012602.GO19120@cyber.com.au> <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:22:40PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > have to be considerably more subtle, especially if we can subtext the > discussion of each point with its advantages. Is there such a thing as > a comment field for legislation, or do we have to rely on people > looking up Hansard or the like? > > Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's official > Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows of a better > palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: If you CC your comments to Andy.Johnstone at parliament.sa.gov.au as well, I'm sure he'd be interested -- it was him who originally contacted me with the draft bill and speech. -- Geoffrey D. Bennett, RHCE, RHCX geoffrey at netcraft.com.au Senior Systems Engineer http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/ NetCraft Australia Pty Ltd http://www.netcraft.com.au/linux/ From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 2 14:05:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 2 14:05:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OpenSource in SA Government Bill In-Reply-To: <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> References: <200305021322.40284.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030502053939.GA14113@april.netcraft.com.au> Message-ID: <200305021405.46983.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Fri, 2 May 2003 13:39, Geoffrey D. Bennett wrote: > On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:22:40PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: >> Who do we send things like this to? I've CC'ed a copy to Ian's >> official Democrat email address, if either he or anyone here knows >> of a better palce to send suggestions, please squeak up! (-: > If you CC your comments to Andy.Johnstone at parliament.sa.gov.au as > well, I'm sure he'd be interested -- it was him who originally > contacted me with the draft bill and speech. Ta. I'll re-send him my original message. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 9 15:40:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 9 15:40:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Constitution working group Message-ID: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As you may be aware, there are some (minor) changes that need to be made to the Linux Australia constitution so that LA may function effectively. Any changes to the constitution will require approval at a general meeting (for details of what is required for a general meeting, see the const). I ask anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion about changes to the current constitution to please email me (privately) at stewart at linux.org.au - ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+u1sVFtJC9tN9SokRAnb/AJ4yBoMMKa6SSL22eI0VGRIjvlB55gCZASV4 zMWwPu3UdnFrOLv/Hb497j0= =EuhA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From twtshop3 at sina.com Fri May 9 20:28:02 2003 From: twtshop3 at sina.com (twtshop3) Date: Fri May 9 20:28:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] =?GB2312?B?xOPSqrXEyO28/s7SsO/E49XStb3By6Gj?= Message-ID: <200305091227.h49CQnoj009217@digital.linux.org.au> ...::www.RegLove.com::...
 
 
From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Mon May 12 08:35:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Mon May 12 08:35:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Constitution working group In-Reply-To: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <4A394638-81F1-11D7-A80E-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030512100345.64baf736.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> > I ask anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion > about changes to the current constitution to please email me > (privately) at stewart at linux.org.au I'll try again ;-P DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030512/4f7cb24b/attachment-0001.pgp From market at assuredigit.com Tue May 13 00:57:01 2003 From: market at assuredigit.com (A.Lin) Date: Tue May 13 00:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] =?GB2312?B?yc+6o7Ci0OvK/cLrvLzK9dPQz965q8u+?= Message-ID: <200305121656.h4CGtkoj013003@digital.linux.org.au> ?????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????? a. ????????? b. ????????? c. ???????????????????????????? d. ?????ID????????????? e. ??????????????????????????????? f. ??????????????????? g. ADOBE PDF???????????????? h. ?????????????? i. ???????????????? j. ?????????????? ????????????????????????????? === ???????????? Shanghai AssureDigit Technologies Co. Ltd ????: market at assuredigit.com ???http://www.assuredigit.com ??:021-63696077 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/5f292d01/attachment-0001.htm From dstone at kde.org Tue May 13 14:48:02 2003 From: dstone at kde.org (Daniel Stone) Date: Tue May 13 14:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news Message-ID: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) -- Daniel Stone KDE: Konquering a desktop near you - http://www.kde.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/fa49223a/attachment-0001.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Tue May 13 15:01:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue May 13 15:01:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Daniel, > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only > seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that moment. In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... ;-) -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/6408a819/attachment-0001.pgp From jeremy at austux.net Tue May 13 15:04:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Tue May 13 15:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030513070125.GA26226@austux.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:46:39PM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems > to be a "spokeswoman". ;) Media have a habbit of doing that. They even manage to change the names of organisations. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/3ae9b71f/attachment-0001.pgp From dstone at kde.org Tue May 13 15:07:01 2003 From: dstone at kde.org (Daniel Stone) Date: Tue May 13 15:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only > > seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) > > Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The > Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a > spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her > being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that > moment. > > In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is > The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... Not incorrect per se, but not the full story ... ;) -- Daniel Stone Developer, Trinity College, University of Melbourne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030513/efd6ba2e/attachment-0001.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 13 15:24:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 13 15:24:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news: trinity In-Reply-To: <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030513070606.GF10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <200305131529.14364.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Tue, 13 May 2003 15:06, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: >>> The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared >>> in The Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia >>> now only seems to be a "spokeswoman". ;) >> Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The >> Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a >> spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from >> her being President - it only gives her the role she was >> undertaking at that moment. >> In other words, there is only One God, however in his different >> roles is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... > Not incorrect per se, but not the full story ... ;) Looking at your domain, I guess you would be the one to know. (-: David's definition looks a bit Unitarian to me, or possibly similar to Watchtower's not-really-Trinity style. I've not kept up with these things much lately, I think we've frightened the local Witnesses away. I think something along the lines of the ancient idol, Dagon, would be more appropriate. Dagon was the Sun, but of an evening would hit the Western ocean (presumably with an enormous hiss), turn into a huge fish, swim under the world, and emerge from the Eastern ocean the next morning ready for a full day's shining. In keeping with the dualism common in such religions, the fish was often nominally female. I'm sure we could work something up with Linux running on a Sun box populated with Seagate Barracuda (ie fish) hard drives, but should we? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From kim at linmagau.org Tue May 13 16:05:28 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Tue May 13 16:05:28 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Ah, but you see, you can use the classical way to explain away The > Trinity here. At the time she was most certainly acting as a > spokeswoman (spokesman) for the group. This doesn't detract from her > being President - it only gives her the role she was undertaking at that > moment. > > In other words, there is only One God, however in his different roles is > The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost... Or.. The Mother, The Daughter and The power behind the Throne (although the later is slowly changing :) Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From 0949243815 at pchome.com.tw Tue May 13 18:26:48 2003 From: 0949243815 at pchome.com.tw (0949243815 at pchome.com.tw) Date: Tue May 13 18:26:48 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] 〗DVD紇100じ Message-ID: <200305130642.h4D6gCn25512@ensim.rackshack.net> ???]???G????-?????_??.DVD?v?? http://hocom.51.net/menu/index.htm ??2002?~??DVD?v???s?f?????@??100???? http://hk.geocities.com/hocomdvd2000/dvd-shopping-auction.htm From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 13 21:40:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 13 21:40:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030513163005.755ee77f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030513080359.GB17734@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <200305132145.22803.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Tue, 13 May 2003 16:03, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 04:30:05PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > The Mother, The Daughter and The power behind the Throne > (although the later is slowly changing :) I thought it was the Maiden, the Mother and... the other one? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Thu May 15 11:08:02 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Thu May 15 11:08:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... Message-ID: Hi, A quick follow up on the NOIE thread that started on the list a few weeks back. Below is an extract from the International Herald Tribune, (linked via /.) specifically: http://www.iht.com/articles/96289.html The Microsoft documents also show a sophisticated and complex lobbying program aimed at getting governments on their side. A confidential document titled "Open Source Software Government: World Wide Initiative" outlines the company's lobbying objectives. . One aim, the document says, is to "prevent adoption of procurement policies favoring OSS," or open-source software. Legislators in several European countries, including Denmark, France and Germany, have proposed laws that would encourage or require government offices to adopt open-source software. The article implies that M$ are actually doing what many of us surmised during the NOIE roadtrip, namely " the gathering of market intelligence via being your friend....." Australia is not mentioned specifically, but the general flavour has a familiar ring does it not? Any comments? Rgds Brent Wallis From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 15 11:48:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 15 11:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Some more FUD from SCO: http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsMN4o1yjaOTJg85AQF1Jgf/R5pCVwlJTRPVQHXO3nX++msyjtRuXlT/ bVN4GOkHPjj5Dbi1vXc8oJmD360SZrQrvmt0s52L+7ys/7jFraBNcIMZZZR9BZfT 3ejP1cynndTkT302MIKxP2ydgm6N1IDXfeGcZ1sZOiSF0QUsHlAQhbzxorybV9mA 6uYwhSEHcYZk+IRTkzuzz55RdR1aksfT4Z/Ih5gj3Wv1mB66djUufxGYbDsaGMq8 S8+2cA2ZpN1sQJKcA3SlsCe+dsFGfUONzfZ9ED5FLWtLmWxOoA1KYV7lHdkVu3HZ 649rOnRMcvJnjNoasKhPddQi3jD62NRt6RQjO1gdkITbhdpn8rzyWg== =irAA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 11:50:01 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 11:50:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 13 May 2003 at 16:46:39 +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591724268.html > > The article is about LA's $au240 donation to Jeff, and appeared in The > Age/SMH's Next section today. Interestingly, however, Pia now only seems > to be a "spokeswoman". ;) This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no offence. A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/11394d06/attachment-0001.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 12:06:02 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 12:06:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> PRESS RELEASE ------------- Santa Cruz Operations - owner of the Unix (tm) Trade Mark - sues Santa Cruz Operations for illegal use of Unix (tm) code in the organisations' OpenLinux distribution... LMAO -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/e0d50711/attachment-0001.pgp From dstone at kde.org Thu May 15 12:54:02 2003 From: dstone at kde.org (Daniel Stone) Date: Thu May 15 12:54:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. > I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice > that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no > offence. Oh, I don't doubt that it was intended, at all. I also have quite some respect for Nathan, and I know he wouldn't do something like that deliberately; just an interesting aside. I actually read the article in dead tree form, then went online and found its URL; it's entirely possible, as you state below, that 'President' only appears online, because I certainly didn't see it in dead-tree, after reading it about 3 times. :) d -- Daniel Stone KDE: Konquering a desktop near you - http://www.kde.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/dcc6cdf9/attachment-0001.pgp From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 13:02:01 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 13:02:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030515045255.GH24752@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030515050049.GH21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 14:52:55 +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. >> I mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice >> that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no >> offence. > > Oh, I don't doubt that it was intended, at all. I also have quite some > respect for Nathan, and I know he wouldn't do something like that > deliberately; just an interesting aside. > > I actually read the article in dead tree form, then went online and > found its URL; it's entirely possible, as you state below, that > 'President' only appears online, because I certainly didn't see it in > dead-tree, after reading it about 3 times. No, it wasn't on the web site either. Nathan has updated it. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/06e14f47/attachment-0001.pgp From jeremy at austux.net Thu May 15 13:04:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Thu May 15 13:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030515050228.GB22686@austux.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 01:18:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often > trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. Hence quotes like: "Ironically, it is the software from Microsoft that helps to run the Internet." I know for a fact that in the article where that appeared, it wasn't put there by the reporter. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia http://www.jabber.org/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/9e404977/attachment-0001.pgp From jmlists at chaoshouse.net Thu May 15 13:06:28 2003 From: jmlists at chaoshouse.net (Jessica Mayo) Date: Thu May 15 13:06:28 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, David Lloyd wrote: > PRESS RELEASE > ------------- > > Santa Cruz Operations - owner of the Unix (tm) Trade Mark - sues Santa > Cruz Operations for illegal use of Unix (tm) code in the organisations' > OpenLinux distribution... It's like that, isn't it? It seems OpenLinux sales didn't increase due to SCO/Caldera being the ones who hold the original X86 SysV Unix licences? I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be uninformed. :) -- Jess (Everything with a grin :) From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 13:16:02 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 13:16:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: References: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Jessica, > I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I > never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be > uninformed. :) The BSD war happened years ago. AT&T decided that it would have a go at the University of California, Berkeley Systems Division about use of Unix (tm) [it was AT&T's at the time] code in the BSD kernel. Eventually these two organisations settled this out of court, if I recall, and BSD released two versions of BSD: * BSD Encumbered - you had to have a Unix (tm) licence * BSD Lite - BSD rewrote all the stuff they had to take out I believe that this was around the time that an operating system called MSDOS appeared. These wars only served to destroy the Unix (tm) market. In my opinion, Unix (tm) is dying anyway ... DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/f30c127a/attachment-0001.pgp From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 15 13:41:02 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 15 13:41:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Greg groggy Lehey said: > This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I > mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice > that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no > offence. > > A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often > trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? :) > Greg > -- > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------- Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com ICQ: 6734154 Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 15 13:48:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 15 13:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030515054721.GV28837@lazarus> > I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, > could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? I would have no problems being in the paper again for a larger grant. ;-) (Report on what I've been doing with the hardware coming in this month's linmagau!) - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "I'm taking no part in your merry 5-way clusterfuck - sort that mess out between yourselves." - Alexander Viro From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 13:51:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 13:51:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Stewart, > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this > scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some > *serious* money?:) /me wants a new Porsche ;-) -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/6f63fdad/attachment-0001.pgp From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 13:57:01 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 13:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20030515055534.GI21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 15:47:49 +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: > > Greg groggy Lehey said: > >> This article was written by Nathan Cochrane, whom I know and respect. I >> mentioned this to him, and if you go back to that URL, you'll notice >> that the word "President" is in there. I'm sure Nathan intended no >> offence. >> >> A bit of background: the copy that the reporters submit is often >> trimmed to fit space. It's possible that this happened here. > > I suspected as such, and don't have much of a problem with it in this > case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this scale, > could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some *serious* money? > :) Heh, yes, I was wondering about that too. I suspect that part of the intention of the article was to show how you can achieve results with the expenditure of almost nothing. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/16373675/attachment-0001.pgp From grog at lemis.com Thu May 15 13:59:02 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 15 13:59:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030513064639.GD10722@trinity.unimelb.edu.au> <20030515034836.GA21650@wantadilla.lemis.com> <24203.130.194.13.104.1052977669.squirrel@127.0.0.1> <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030515055712.GJ21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 15:19:58 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Stewart, > >> case. I'm just stoked that we got press for a $240 grant. On this >> scale, could you imaging what would happen if we gave away some >> *serious* money?:) > > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) They don't work too well. My last one is broken: === grog at wantadilla (/dev/ttypa) /src/vinum 9 -> ping porsche PING porsche.lemis.com (192.109.197.143): 56 data bytes ping: sendto: Host is down ping: sendto: Host is down (etc) ping: sendto: Host is down ^C --- porsche.lemis.com ping statistics --- 20 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/d4ee1836/attachment-0001.pgp From xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au Thu May 15 14:05:01 2003 From: xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Thu May 15 14:05:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:19 PM, David Lloyd wrote: David, > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) What happened to the old one? R > -- > Microbits Linux Technician > > 08 8362 9220 > > - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 ICQ: 76626240 IRC: xf / irc.oublinet.net PH: +61 418 186 604 EQ: Mummer (Bard), Tholuxe In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+wy2mRcxk39PM6wcRAjijAJsE1OD1S5eFkQp/CiYts3ZNCnHPDACfdC5d ilMryliVWXIAkBbFFevd+Fs= =luvA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 14:35:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 14:35:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from David Lloyd of "Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930." <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> dlloyd at microbits.com.au said: >> I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >> never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >> uninformed. :) >> The BSD war happened years ago..... No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Thu May 15 14:38:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 15 14:38:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20030515160720.22edb3bb.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Jon, > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets > interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. I'm not so sure about that...and it's not entirely true that there are no large companies playing with any of the BSD's either. I'm sure that IBM does for example. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030515/a484ab7c/attachment-0001.pgp From chris.debenham at sun.com Thu May 15 14:49:01 2003 From: chris.debenham at sun.com (Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer) Date: Thu May 15 14:49:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> What about apple?... Oh wait, you said 'deep' pockets :-) Jon maddog Hall wrote: > dlloyd at microbits.com.au said: > >>>I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >>>never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >>>uninformed. :) > > >>>The BSD war happened years ago..... > > > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets interested > in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. > > md > > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ,-_|\ Systems Engineer - eSun E-mail : chris.debenham at sun.com / \ Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd. Direct : +61 (2) 9844 5188 \_,-\_* 828 Pacific Highway Phone : +61 (2) 9844 5000 v Gordon, N.S.W. 2072 Fax : +61 (2) 9844 5189 Mobile : +61 (40) 9844 514 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!! From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 15 18:47:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 15 18:47:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:49 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > /me wants a new Porsche ;-) Try a Jag, some of them have PowerPC processors in them and porting Linux to it would be easier due to the fact that Linux already runs on PPC..... :) ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 15 18:49:56 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 15 18:49:56 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: <20030515054721.GV28837@lazarus> Message-ID: <93738755-86C1-11D7-908B-00039346F142@mac.com> On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:47 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I would have no problems being in the paper again for a larger grant. > ;-) > > (Report on what I've been doing with the hardware coming in this > month's > linmagau!) That's great, hope we can help the GNOME project further. I seem to be further impressed with every update. I'm starting to get a big warm and fuzzy feeling about how the grants scheme is going :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 15 20:14:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 15 20:14:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 4:37 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The > real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets > interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. I believe that SCO is bound by the 1994 settlement between USL Inc (then owned by Novell) and UCB which released BSD 4.4 Lite as completely unencumbered. I don't think even SCO would be dumb enough to try and reopen a lawsuit when it's already been settled that the BSD 4.4 Lite release was unencumbered. I believe that all the BSD's (including BSDI, if they are still going) are based on BSD 4.4 Lite. Chris (bought the t-shirt, literally :-)) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsODmI1yjaOTJg85AQHhVAgAmEA9vBLbt225ST/07dc7DxzF2zE+WUTo t6Qt8AOGPLNgovWulzmyEIUvp+m2gSG3ZybXeMB2Rxa14ZZWzaBvd/I12uWwvvEY KbTBguSZTNC/XGj1X4dDQ73FZEB6hhcoIDeBVJmVyRx7WwO50nBia/GaWgoo0Cxn hdnNR42j1D6Qr1WAOFakSheK5y1UlZ/dDoBuwwoq4VCmDYv9shEMPSZ9SX8je3kS g+WHGZp2HhUubnfRY0dG8RWCYFEkd3uDnnz4DvKmXmEZ+0e6Qj5VASeRWzM8h9H2 tag3poxr5kY8UxKU/3hMx+wnhwizF5yZ0lpV3oQA/Ps1SnSJyrrCCQ== =x+5O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 20:58:02 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 20:58:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from David Lloyd of "Thu, 15 May 2003 14:44:42 +0930." <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <200305151300.h4FD0fmn001319@localhost.localdomain> dlloyd at microbits.com.au said: > I'm not so sure about that...and it's not entirely true that there are > no large companies playing with any of the BSD's either. I'm sure that > IBM does for example. Even if IBM is "playing with any of the BSD's", they have not stated that BSD is part of their strategic future the same way they have with Linux. If they had, then SCO would be going after BSD the same way. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:01:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 15 21:01:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47, Chris Samuel wrote: > Some more FUD from SCO: > http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:03:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 15 21:03:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305152102.25927.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:03, Ryan Verner wrote: > On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:19 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> /me wants a new Porsche ;-) > What happened to the old one? Physics, in the form of a tree? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 15 21:04:39 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 15 21:04:39 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> Message-ID: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > What about apple?... Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 21:07:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 21:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Samuel of "Thu, 15 May 2003 22:10:00 +1000." <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> SCO's current suit is based on code getting into Linux that arrived AFTER all the AT&T hubbub. Their claim is that "unprofessional programmers" did not check the sources of their code, and therefore there are pieces of code that arrived (through the kernel and the libraries) that belong to SCO. Whether this is true or not does not stop a suit from happening. Trust me, if the BSDs were seen as likely to snuff out the commercial AT&T code stream and royalties, then SCO would be suing BSD just to see what they could get out of it, whether or not there was any legal relevance. Here in the USA, you sue first, and ask questions later. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From jeremy at austux.net Thu May 15 21:20:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Thu May 15 21:20:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20030515131858.GC25602@austux.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 09:06:55AM -0400, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > Here in the USA, you sue first, and ask questions later. In some cases it's the same here. Public liability insurance has gone through the roof as of recent years. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia There are 10 types of people - those who understand binary and those who don't. From maddog at li.org Thu May 15 21:23:01 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 15 21:23:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: Message from Leon Brooks of "Thu, 15 May 2003 21:03:33 +0800." <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> >Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Actually, when Sun got the System V code, it was my understanding that they ripped it apart, and worked very hard to make it a decent operating system, replacing a good deal of the kernel code, and basically just keeping the system call interfaces. The port of Sun's customers from SunOS to Solaris (often called Slowaris in the early days) was one of the low points of Sun's history. md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From lesbell at lesbell.com.au Fri May 16 06:54:01 2003 From: lesbell at lesbell.com.au (Les Bell) Date: Fri May 16 06:54:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: Leon Brooks wrote: >> After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? << You think it's confusing - imagine how *I* feel: I do work under contract for IBM, I'm a Caldera OpenLearning certified Master Instructor, and worst of all, I'm a SCO shareholder. I would have dumped the stock ages ago, except for some US IRS paperwork I forgot to file with eTrade, and now the stock is worth so little, it's worth more to me to hold onto it for the dubious satisfaction of being a disgusted SCO shareholder. I don't think SCO has a friend in the world, at this point. I know companies who have migrated from SCO unix to Linux (specifically, Red Hat), and I'll bet some of their biggest customers, who were undoubtedly considering the same move, have brought forward their planning. With respect to their statements of the last few days: I've never seen an entire corporation foaming at the mouth before. Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au] From president at linux.org.au Fri May 16 06:57:10 2003 From: president at linux.org.au (Pia Smith) Date: Fri May 16 06:57:10 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 Message-ID: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> Hi all, As per our new Grant Scheme here is application number two :) Please see bottom of email for committee comments: -----Forwarded Message----- From: Kimberly Shelt To: committee at linux.org.au, pia at linux.org.au Subject: [LACTTE] Application Date: 08 May 2003 15:59:54 +1000 As per the guidelines please find below an application for contributioni/supporting funds from LA to LinMagAU. *** Date: 7th March 2003 Project Name: LinmagAU.org Aim of Project: :Continue on line magazine production (currently monthly edition) :Investigate ability to move to fortnightly editions :Create proto-type hard copy for distribution throughout LUGS (within 3 months) General Aims: :Promote various Linux/OSS/Community related projects/people within Australia :Encourage penetration of both Linux/OSS knowledge and usage within the computing community. Person Responsible for Request: Kimberly Shelt (kim at linmagau.org) Request: : $200 per month : $? per click through (Upper limit per month) (On line) On going hosting and bandwidth charges. Associated costs (ie telephone) for contact with vendors/advertisers, authors and other contributors. (Hard Copy) Purchase of paper, printing needs, industrial stapler etc (for inhouse build) Printing costs for front page (professional cover) Associated costs (ie telephone, postage) for contact with LUGS/distribution, advertisers, authors and other contributors. --------------------------------------- Currently the magazine is running banner advertising for many organisations at no cost.. the suggestion of $? being paid per click through on the banners has been raised. Stats for the current edition Linux Australia home page Views 3644 Clicks 12 Linux Australia users groups page Views 3770 Clicks 12 This month has been the busiest so far, 300% improvement on last month, with many stories being taken up by large on line news sites, including the on line IT spaces of SMH & The Age. We have been approached by several LUGS, organisations and companies with regards to banner advertising, and general support and in the coming weeks will be investigating either "charged advertising" or "tiered sponsorship" Currently we received consistent support (by way of links to articles) from the following : LinuxToday, LWN, SMH & The Age (on line) and usually something in Slashdot. Some sites that have linked to the mag over the last few months::debian, osnews, (several) KDE sites, pclinuxonline, openbsd sites, whist many of these sites are "overseas" based, the number of members (with .au or .nz mailing addresses) joining the site outweighs others. It is obvious we are reaching a fair proportion of users, a small group of "small business" etc, however I do not think we have as yet tapped the vendor area :). which of course is my next foray :) ** Thanks Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org _______________________________________________ The committee have discussed this and we'd like to go ahead for several reasons: - linmagau fills the community newspaper role. It provides a service and a community focused hub of information. We believe with a little more support it will prove to be an excellent resource. - Linux Australia benefits directly, as we have a banner on linmagau that receives click throughs every month. We should support those that support us. Ammendments: - $200 per month only (click-through incentive encourages Linux Australia banners all over the place :) so we're not as keen on this) If anyone disagrees with this then please post within the next two weeks, or we will assume it is accepted by the membership, and go ahead. Positive comments are welcome too :) Thanks and regards, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Fri May 16 07:49:02 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Fri May 16 07:49:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution Message-ID: Hi, Les Bell said: >I know companies who have migrated from SCO unix to Linux (specifically, Red Hat), >and I'll bet some of their biggest customers, who were undoubtedly >considering the same move, have brought forward their planning. We deal in the SME sector, and have consulted on quite a few jobs in the last 24 months doing what you describe.... ie: Open Server -> RH Linux, Unixware -> RH Linux One particular upbeat (for us at least) move from RedHat in the last few weeks has been the release of the AS, ES, WS systems set, which has enabled us to approach the core ISV we resell an ERP package for, in order to encourage them to support their product on Linux. For this particular ISV, the idea of an extended support cycle has appeal. The ISV in question are conservative to say the least,and our lobbying has been long and hard ... we were almost there..... But the latest SCO move could kill all the hard work. The ISV is already a little edgy about the change required, the thought of the platform being subverted (albeit a distant maybe) will probably make them wait even longer before committing. In a tough IT market, who can blame them. Herein lies the problem for us at least. Could it be that this move was intended to scare the ISV sector as well? If it was, they have damn well gone a long way to achieving it in my small neck of the planet. (grr, where did I put my knee pads....;-) BW From chris.debenham at sun.com Fri May 16 07:57:01 2003 From: chris.debenham at sun.com (Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer) Date: Fri May 16 07:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <3EC428F0.3090201@sun.com> Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > >>What about apple?... > > > Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: > > Cheers; Leon > SunOS was BSD-derived, but Solaris is System V derived. But even so we previously bought complete UNIX IP rights from SCOs predecessors (perpetual license and all that) so we can make/ship derivative products without issue. /me dons flame-proof suit If you want a platform safe from IP issues don't forget Solaris x86 :-) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ,-_|\ Systems Engineer - eSun E-mail : chris.debenham at sun.com / \ Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd. Direct : +61 (2) 9844 5188 \_,-\_* 828 Pacific Highway Phone : +61 (2) 9844 5000 v Gordon, N.S.W. 2072 Fax : +61 (2) 9844 5189 Mobile : +61 (40) 9844 514 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!! From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 08:05:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 08:05:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Pia, > - $200 per month only (click-through incentive encourages Linux > Australia banners all over the place :) so we're not as keen on this) > > If anyone disagrees with this then please post within the next two > weeks, or we will assume it is accepted by the membership, and go > ahead. Positive comments are welcome too :) How about: $200 per month with a [half-yearly | yearly | some time period] review ..that is to say I think we should either : 1) set an explicit date at which the sponsorship stops - I don't like that idea 2) set a date or time period to review the sponsorship Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? We probably should ask all those we sponsor to provide some type of summary of how they've used the sponsorship so that we can explain to our members and the public what we're doing and supporting. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/24e01c7b/attachment-0001.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 08:12:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 08:12:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia in the news In-Reply-To: References: <20030515151958.37f52593.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516094046.51d50c5b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Stewart, > Try a Jag, some of them have PowerPC processors in them and porting > Linux to it would be easier due to the fact that Linux already runs on On the subject of cars, a guy called Toby Corkindale who used to live in Adelaide managed to get a Commodore car speaking to his Linux laptop: * http://www.linuxsa.org.au/mailing-list/2002-03/220.html ..his e-mail is different now though. 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Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/f6d3115e/attachment-0001.pgp From kim at linmagau.org Fri May 16 09:08:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Fri May 16 09:08:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 09:33:46AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > How about: > $200 per month with a [half-yearly | yearly | some time period] review > ..that is to say I think we should either : > > 1) set an explicit date at which the sponsorship stops > - I don't like that idea > > 2) set a date or time period to review the sponsorship I am ok with either.. also it occurs to me that I didn't include in the application, something about "if the mag folds" I promise not to keep taking the money. :) of course this is not going to happen because so many people are going to read this, and put up their hands to help :) > > Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how > she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? > > We probably should ask all those we sponsor to provide some type of > summary of how they've used the sponsorship so that we can explain to > our members and the public what we're doing and supporting. Shame on you you didn't read the LA update in the mag this month did you :) http://www.linmagau.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=88&page=2 The applicant must: (Points 5,6,7) Be responsible for supplying Linux Australia with any necessary receipts Provide Linux Australia with a brief report as to how the project went, results, etc Be responsible for updating the project page with how the funds were used (this is to come) Thanks LA Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 09:42:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 09:42:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516010659.GA24077@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030516111036.4324629f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Kim, > Shame on you you didn't read the LA update in the mag this month did > you :) Oh behave...the Palantir was malfunctioning at the time. All I could dial was a picture of some guy's "Eye" :( -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/19d58955/attachment-0001.pgp From grog at lemis.com Fri May 16 09:44:27 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 16 09:44:27 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 22:10:00 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 15 May 2003 4:37 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >> No, this is not the reason that this is only happening to Linux. The >> real reason is that there are no large companies with deep pockets >> interested in BSD. If there were, SCO would be suing them too. > > I believe that SCO is bound by the 1994 settlement between USL Inc > (then owned by Novell) and UCB which released BSD 4.4 Lite as > completely unencumbered. > > I don't think even SCO would be dumb enough to try and reopen a > lawsuit when it's already been settled that the BSD 4.4 Lite release > was unencumbered. More to the point, SCO (well, Caldera at the time) released all precursors to BSD, including notably Research UNIX up to the Seventh Edition, and also 32V, under a BSD license on 20 January 2002. As a result, BSD is no longer encumbered. See http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ for more details. Yes, it's a pity they don't have it on their own web site, but there's no doubt in anybody's minds (except possibly SCO's new lawyers) that it happened. > I believe that all the BSD's (including BSDI, if they are still > going) are based on BSD 4.4 Lite. Correct. And yes, BSD[Ii] isn't completely dead yet. It belongs to Wind River Systems. On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 9:06:55 -0400, Jon Maddog Hall wrote: > > Trust me, if the BSDs were seen as likely to snuff out the > commercial AT&T code stream and royalties, then SCO would be suing > BSD just to see what they could get out of it, whether or not there > was any legal relevance. Absolutely. That was the background for the BSDI lawsuit ten years ago. On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 21:00:59 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47, Chris Samuel wrote: >> Some more FUD from SCO: > >> http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 > > After inserting their favourite toy into a legal meat grinder up the the > hilt, SCO complicate matters by shooting themselves in the foot. > > I don't get it. What's going on there behind the scenes? I think it's pretty clear that SCO's sales model for Linux didn't work. The real reason for the suspension is almost certainly that it wasn't selling, but by stating these reasons they can gain more credibility in their lawsuit. I must say that this particular lawsuit has reached a level of stupidity which far exceeds anything I've seen before. The stock market doesn't, though. Take a look at http://ir.sco.com/stock.cfm for one good reason for the lawsuit. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/727429eb/attachment-0001.pgp From grog at lemis.com Fri May 16 09:47:02 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 16 09:47:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <20030515133445.49718e80.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030515144442.7d9c8ebc.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516014320.GZ21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 15 May 2003 at 14:44:42 +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Jessica, > >> I muse that it's strange all this fuss is happening over Linux and I >> never heard any complaints about any of the BSDs... but I may just be >> uninformed. :) > > The BSD war happened years ago. AT&T decided that it would have a go at > the University of California, Berkeley Systems Division about use of > Unix (tm) [it was AT&T's at the time] code in the BSD kernel. No, the suit was initially filed against BSDI. They brought in UCB (which had a significant law school; what idiots) shortly before settlement was reached. I don't see this as a coincidence. The time frame was 1992 to 1994. > Eventually these two organisations settled this out of court, if I > recall, and BSD CSRG > released two versions of BSD: > > I believe that this was around the time that an operating system > called MSDOS appeared. These wars only served to destroy the Unix > (tm) market. No, MS-DOS appeared in 1981. At the time, 4BSD was in the early development stages. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/592a8a85/attachment-0001.pgp From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 16 09:52:24 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 16 09:52:24 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Greg, > I must say that this particular lawsuit has reached a level of > stupidity which far exceeds anything I've seen before. The stock > market doesn't, though. Take a look at http://ir.sco.com/stock.cfm > for one good reason for the lawsuit. But the stock market is rarely "sane". This sounds like the lull before the storm...at the moment everyone's holding onto their SCO shares to see what's happening...and then suddenly...WHOOSH...and everyone goes: "Oh !@#$ - they _are_ going down the gurgler...let's all sell"... *sigh* We do realise that "S" stands for "Stupid". DSL (1) Maybe SCO could be as their first name's sake and just GIVE us the damned code for Christmas. -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/53ce3c26/attachment-0001.pgp From michaeld at senet.com.au Fri May 16 10:19:02 2003 From: michaeld at senet.com.au (michaeld at senet.com.au) Date: Fri May 16 10:19:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> <200305152100.59754.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <200305151306.h4FD6t7B001380@localhost.localdomain> <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <200305152210.02666.chris@csamuel.org> <20030516014050.GY21491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030516112128.42911ad1.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <1053051492.3ec44a64c01c7@webmail.senet.com.au> Quoting David Lloyd : > (1) Maybe SCO could be as their first name's sake and just GIVE us the > damned code for Christmas. Perhaps it's really the Satan Cruise Organisation. -- Michael Davies Linux.Conf.Au Adelaide Jan 12-17 2004 michaeld [at] senet.com.au Australia's Premier Linux Conference mirky on irc http://lca2004.linux.org.au ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through SE Net Webmail http://webmail.senet.com.au From andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au Fri May 16 15:11:02 2003 From: andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au (Andrew Cowie) Date: Fri May 16 15:11:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> [This is *not* a M$ bashing story] On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 13:06, Brent Wallis wrote: > The Microsoft documents also show a sophisticated and > complex lobbying program aimed at getting governments > on their side. In related news, those of you who watch Google News will have seen a link to this story: http://www.internetwk.com/breakingNews/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=10000073 Its a bit to the effect that, in the case of *large* government and educational contracts, Microsoft may be ready to offer their software for free when the competition is "low-cost or zero-cost". This isn't likely to become their mass market approach any time soon (certainly not in the commercial sector!) but I thought it was interesting that Microsoft is responding to the one striking argument that Free and Open Source alternatives offer - the free part. I only bring this up in the context of continuing points raised by Jeff Waugh and others: we have to compete on the quality of our actions [products], not our rhetoric. So to all the developers out there, keep up the good work. Of course, this could be nothing more than a trial balloon, or a trial toilet. AfC [What on earth were they thinking: Portable Internet Enabled Toilets? Is that so like you can log on while, er, laying a log? If you don't know what I'm talking about, see http://www.web-user.co.uk/news/article/?afw_source_key=%7b5BF50883-41F4-4CF3-9F76-83A761DBF3CC%7d Brings a new meaning to clogging up the network. iLoo. Now THAT's a product that has Open Source potential :) I can see it now: http://linux.conf.loo ] -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:37:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 16 15:37:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: > > No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch > to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Actually, when Sun got > the System V code, it was my understanding that they ripped it apart, and > worked very hard to make it a decent operating system, replacing a good > deal of the kernel code, and basically just keeping the system call > interfaces. My understanding was one of the major reasons that Sun went System V for Solaris was for the SMP scalability. Apparently SunOS's MP didn't quite cut it. > The port of Sun's customers from SunOS to Solaris (often called Slowaris in > the early days) was one of the low points of Sun's history. Yeah, I remember getting 4.1.3_u1 and then being extremely happy to receive 4.1.4 and hoping that Sun would get the message and a 4.1.5 would appear. Oh well, at least now there's a variety of Linux and *BSD's for their hardware. :-) Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSTW41yjaOTJg85AQE2mgf/ZNRr62d3ReS93V3rkaFVdONwXOBDrKHb mW9nFbsTEZjHxiv4o10iA0XZ17aPm4P8bSYhDusfMHmTYffeVCrEOAizMmQtz7i6 FqCUFCBosSt0zYwZ6WHlOiZbJ+lK4vZE078ocGuWr7AxEJqYjJlzOGK07L4aSW0r tdTejWZBhr8mdqjcFRlKkErNmBq1xJEGykBtN3T/+Pmz3fAd2XdOoP4ussAtK6VM 15H7Fj3pjfjOQaqGHi0NFoYIQrOT6INpoFd/dJCTloM7j4/JLZ1dRlnj8bbfKJDf YpiW4eu0SBmFyovVBDvmMMwMS3txRiyngQvpQx/KaSSSBMTRi9n2Cg== =CgLa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:38:46 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 16 15:38:46 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305150637.h4F6bkmq002037@localhost.localdomain> <3EC33821.9050606@sun.com> <200305152103.33505.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <200305161726.26735.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:03 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:48, Chris Debenham - eSun Systems Engineer wrote: > > What about apple?... > > Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: No, SunOS was, but Solaris is SysV based. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSSoY1yjaOTJg85AQGuWAgAwgUD/NajEPujM9KceJKA6+sx1tOjLnk8 5HU4ekVGfYorp+gm3DsQsBcDOuxrludyCXTDdRlmIAzlTOtJfd2Q/vFF/D0riDbu hCo32Yee0kCAbfOKmXWAlt+51NPBsFW03G2VQXTqq9VuUirh8NfdupJdIFJA5H5X wFVfIALLAy6CVa2DjMriUCN97/Gbf3JiHtxdWfXhLyd4vo3zRIIl3CEa+zmgcreC KB2xw5FttTKubywI31hNJUqwiKLgFjpRa52yK8HcUr51OtIMs+TAbJcodUQ/ex/S xAkAO7LawpZ9fogVEHzW8FIyaC3B84V2faXNvcseJDQVzD3aRKHmbA== =BwnP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeremy at austux.net Fri May 16 15:43:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Fri May 16 15:43:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 09:33:46AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > Perhaps we could ask Kim to provide us with a summary of how > she's used the sponsorship in a year's time? Is Linuxmagau incorporated or planning to incorporate? Perhaps a project of this scale should form an incorporated association and then that can receive the funds, and the association when then have to produce an annual report. Of course linuxmagau could also be setup to be considered part of Linux Australia and a financial report could still be required. Either way it's probably also a good idea to ensure anyone working with linuxmagau is covered, either by limited liability or insurance. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030516/e7262caa/attachment-0001.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 16 15:49:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 16 15:49:02 2003 Subject: MS iLoo an unoriginal hoax (was Re: [Linux-aus] Follow Up on NOIE thread from a few weeks back....) In-Reply-To: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> References: <1053068954.28123.59.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200305161748.41523.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Friday 16 May 2003 5:09 pm, Andrew Cowie wrote: > [What on earth were they thinking: Portable Internet Enabled Toilets? Is > that so like you can log on while, er, laying a log? If you don't know > what I'm talking about, see http://www.web-user.co.uk/news/?mod_article_id={14909A49-E9CF-407E-BE67-EBAD678A8B4C}&mod_article_show_only= [start quote] But according to US news sources, Microsoft US has apologised for the joke and said it was an April Fool's gag circulated by their UK counterparts. Presumably the company forgot this was on 1 April and not 30 April when the press release was issued. A spokeswoman for Microsoft told US news channel CBS News: "This iLoo release came out of the UK office and was not a Microsoft sanctioned communication and we apologise for any confusion or offence it may have caused." There's also further embarrassment for MSN. According to the Inquirer website, British inventor Andrew Cubitt claims he designed and made an internet toilet two years ago, which made an appearance at the Ideal Home Show. [end quote] To see Andrew's invention, which printed onto toilet paper (about right for some websites out there!), see: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9442 and the webpage for it at the UK Ideal Home Show 2003: http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/content/attractions/content.asp?location=32 No details about what OS it used though.. :-) I still prefer the Internet Chopping Board: http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/content/attractions/content.asp?location=26 (These are not late April Fools) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsSXyo1yjaOTJg85AQEKnwf/acQMXu5ODyVEkTNxDkd4RI+uPCq4SylS MrCIs8DkZMzwOGZGNGEHorSvuXTDanmOQJ/bn2PIcBfhKxtCYYVfqje2V9QX6/q4 BpdHnCHHRqh5DF8eOi7PzWqbfdp2cS/jRa8Lz+PO2gOTI9nA9EBc9qCB+5Lz29/T iJNW7pwDUjXb+ua2n/vG69VgRcymgrcHfyuqc6YXTlCl5/MVdwRMdKR5LOMIy/eb 3K5yDmb5+ufiUDnBOPxMnLAI2oGbSqgE7uImJaqnIPVXYOWT6GK4NI7GNTKHBnop aeORhB41OR+1Ht1BmYbXqz2Tfl7zCbc2deQ8uzuYdLUGufN47yLWfA== =kSye -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kim at linmagau.org Fri May 16 16:39:01 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Fri May 16 16:39:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> Message-ID: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> Hi Jeremy/all, On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 05:41:53PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > Is Linuxmagau incorporated or planning to incorporate? Perhaps a > project of this scale should form an incorporated association and then > that can receive the funds, and the association when then have to > produce an annual report. Of course linuxmagau could also be setup to > be considered part of Linux Australia and a financial report could still > be required. Either way it's probably also a good idea to ensure anyone > working with linuxmagau is covered, either by limited liability or > insurance. Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) I am not sure what sort of liability you mean? Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) the authors are all single entities, not bound to LinMagAu in anyway, nor is LinMagAU to the authors.. we run a standard copyright at the footer of the pages.. ** All logos,trademarks, articles, photographs and comments are property of the respective owner/s where shown. All other is property of linmagau.org. For questions regards Copyright, email legal at linmagau.org or the respective owners of the article concerned. ** When I am writing articles using others words, I always get permission first if someone who submits an article does not, the copyright I think covers this? I am not sure LinMagAU as an entity is liable for any action ? I would be grateful for any feedback on this if someone knows better. What sort of insurance do you mean ? Right now the mag is created by me (with the terrific assistance from the authors of the stories) but from my house.. I am not about to sue myself for stubbing my toe on the bed end :) Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. (with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. I have started the process to register a business name so that we can open a bank account..and as per the Linux Australia requirements for the sponsorship/support, LinMagAu will be accounting directly to LA for the use of this money. Any suggestions are always great. Thanks Kimberly Shelt From jeremy at austux.net Fri May 16 18:43:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Fri May 16 18:43:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 06:37:57PM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) Whoops :) > I am not sure what sort of liability you mean? > Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) The only problem with this is that if someone for any reason decides to sue LinMagAU then the onus falls back on you. As a result you could loose your house or any property. One way to solve that is with incorporation, another way is with insurance (could be costly). Alternatively you could probably do it so that LinMagAU becomes part of Linux Australia. > Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may > be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. > (with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). > So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. Yep, well the only thing with incorporation is that you have to follow certain rules and comply with the Act. Though apart from that it's very cheap to do (in Victoria it costs $60 to register which is cheaper than registering a business name) and not too hard to do. The hardest part can perhaps be getting the people together, you need at least five members (though that may vary from state to state), though usually more since in most states the model rules seem to require about six committee members. I'm in the process of setting up an incorporated association so if you ever do need any help with that do feel free to ask me (though the laws will probably differ in other states). -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ From kim at linmagau.org Fri May 16 19:01:27 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Fri May 16 19:01:27 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> Message-ID: <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 08:42:11PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 06:37:57PM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > > Please note: LinMagAU NOT linuxmagau :) > > Whoops :) NP :) > The only problem with this is that if someone for any reason decides to > sue LinMagAU then the onus falls back on you. As a result you could > loose your house or any property. One way to solve that is with > incorporation, another way is with insurance (could be costly). > Alternatively you could probably do it so that LinMagAU becomes part of > Linux Australia. > Good points :).. although I think my debts outweight my assets right now :) > > Yep, well the only thing with incorporation is that you have to follow > certain rules and comply with the Act. Though apart from that it's very > cheap to do (in Victoria it costs $60 to register which is cheaper than > registering a business name) and not too hard to do. The hardest part > can perhaps be getting the people together, you need at least five > members (though that may vary from state to state), though usually more > since in most states the model rules seem to require about six committee > members. > > I'm in the process of setting up an incorporated association so if you > ever do need any help with that do feel free to ask me (though the laws > will probably differ in other states). Excellent.. as in other mail directly to you, Thanks Jeremy, I shall do some investigation over this side of the country, and get in contact :) Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? I think we can take this part of the thread off line, and all those who are interested in assisting, let me know via email :) Thanks Jeremy. Regards Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org > > -- > Jeremy Lunn > Melbourne, Australia > Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From tony at linuxworks.com.au Fri May 16 19:36:02 2003 From: tony at linuxworks.com.au (Tony Nugent) Date: Fri May 16 19:36:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: message-id <200305151347.47614.chris@csamuel.org> of Thu, May 15 13:47:46 2003 Message-ID: <200305161135.h4GBZ0pu016932@gandalf.linuxworks.com.au.nospam> On Thu May 15 2003 at 13:47, Chris Samuel wrote: > Some more FUD from SCO: > > http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=109149 These URLs may be of interest for those looking for more information about this very sad story: The SCO Complaint http://www.sco.com/scosource/complaint3.06.03.html OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint (Eric Raymond) http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html UNIX is free! (Subject: Liberal license for ancient UNIX sources) (23 Jan 2002) http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ Are Linux Users Infringing on SCO's Property? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-01-23-023-26-NW-CD-LL SCO Group On the Licensing Warpath? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-03-03-010-26-NW-CD-LL Has SCO Fired Volley to Start Linux Legal War? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-13-009-26-NW-CD-LL OSOpinion.com: Linux' New Worst Enemy http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-12-007-26-OP-CD-LL A look at the SCO complaint http://lwn.net/Articles/24747/ SCO sues Big Blue over Unix, Linux | CNET News.com http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html SCO vs IBM http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html SCO vs Linux http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-03-07-011-26-NW-CD-LL SCO to enforce its intellectual property in Linux world (Jan 23 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,77815,00.html SCO sues IBM for $1B in intellectual property fight (Mar 7 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,79153,00.html SCO warns commercial Linux users of potential 'legal liability' (May 14 2003) http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0%2c10801%2c81235%2c00.html Cheers Tony From jdub at perkypants.org Sat May 17 01:32:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Sat May 17 01:32:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing association). - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "And up in the corporate box there's a group of pleasant thirtysomething guys making tuneful music for the masses of people who can spell 'nihilism', but don't want to listen to it in the car." - Richard Jinman, SMH From grog at lemis.com Sat May 17 10:38:02 2003 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat May 17 10:38:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 16 May 2003 at 17:29:31 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >>> Hang about, isn't Solaris BSD-derived? (-: >> >> No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to switch >> to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). Well, in fact they adopted the term Solaris at the time. Solaris 1 was the complete package round the (BSD-based) SunOS 4 kernel. Solaris 2 was the complete package round the (System V.4-based) SunOS 5 kernel. And note that System V.4 has just about the complete 4.3BSD sources in it. The file system was UFS, for example. >> Actually, when Sun got the System V code, it was my understanding >> that they ripped it apart, and worked very hard to make it a decent >> operating system, replacing a good deal of the kernel code, and >> basically just keeping the system call interfaces. They certainly did a lot of work on it, but SunOS 5.2 (Solaris 2.2) was still very recognizably System V.4. > My understanding was one of the major reasons that Sun went System V > for Solaris was for the SMP scalability. Apparently SunOS's MP > didn't quite cut it. I haven't heard that, but most of the SMP work on SunOS 5 was done by Sun, not by AT&T. It's possible that System V.4 was a better basis to start working on. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030517/810e9523/attachment-0001.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Sat May 17 14:04:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Sat May 17 14:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO suspends it's Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305151323.h4FDNj5w001502@localhost.localdomain> <200305161729.32713.chris@csamuel.org> <20030517013303.GC55386@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305171600.51832.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Saturday 17 May 2003 11:33 am, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 16 May 2003 at 17:29:31 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 11:23 pm, Jon maddog Hall wrote: > >> > >> No, SunOS was BSD derived. As part of USL, Scott McNeily agreed to > >> switch to a System V base for Sun (and call it Solaris). > > Well, in fact they adopted the term Solaris at the time. Solaris 1 > was the complete package round the (BSD-based) SunOS 4 kernel. Now, if my memory is correct, that was kind of reverse engineered onto SunOS after Solaris was announced wasn't it ? Aha - found an official Sun Solaris release history which says that Solaris 1.0 was actually SunOS 4.1.1 Rev. B, a little over a year before Solaris 2.0 was released. http://jp.sun.com/software/solaris/history/ SunOS 4.1.1 and previous was just called SunOS. [...] > I haven't heard that, but most of the SMP work on SunOS 5 was done by > Sun, not by AT&T. It's possible that System V.4 was a better basis to > start working on. It looks like that, from the Solaris Transistion Guide at: http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/805-3864/6j3lvpage?a=view Although the foundation of the Solaris operating environment is based on SVR4, Sun has added extensive functionality in areas such as symmetric multiprocessing with multithreads, real-time functionality, increased security, and improved system administration. and why it's better than SunOS for SMP http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/805-3864/6j3lvpaka?a=view Under the SunOS release 4.x software, only one processor could be in the kernel at any one time. This was accomplished by using a master lock around the entire kernel. When a processor wanted to execute kernel code, it would acquire the lock (excluding other processors from running the code protected by the lock) and it would release the lock when it finished. The Solaris 7 kernel is multithreaded. Instead of one master lock, there are many smaller locks that protect smaller regions of code. For example, there may be a kernel lock that protects access to a particular vnode, and one that protects an inode. Only one processor can be running code dealing with that vnode at a time, but another could be accessing an inode. This allows a greater amount of concurrency. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsXQDY1yjaOTJg85AQGwlAf7B+7nON3PMEv7l6LAVvWWU8/fTdxpDqhB M2a9M/QJayPq4Aegpz0LnARUTYC5JPYa1sP85/cazeXIF59JgVF6lvLIUB1PhUrx vmAz5NLH4xUpXMjCK9zrzrmCiQ8mi/+cl7NVVBU+euOkgLi42VuLcKIX0OBrD4z3 82NfdbOOsjK7lrqUgl645lANmt70L69Qn5RDMPmckXJ3Z+nqZkmebZinW4DUnKkw 74OgdsWWIYydF0GNMmDWm7du0FkJzbA4q8ZBu3c9X+K8NISTNzPWFvA7JA55MHxD hqM3c/T4uTl0zmvpbJQyQeMLTWv3nQbAERtLaLU7lTzJ5FWTDoFKHA== =O7Tr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kim at linmagau.org Sat May 17 23:09:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Sat May 17 23:09:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > association). Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? What are the benefits? LA Committe..can you help here? I think there are lots of pros & cons.. intersted to hear others thoughts? Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au Sat May 17 23:25:01 2003 From: dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au (Dai_Thai NGUYEN) Date: Sat May 17 23:25:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > > association). > > Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? > > What are the benefits? > > LA Committe..can you help here? > > I think there are lots of pros & cons.. intersted to hear others thoughts? > > Kim > -- > http://www.linmagau.org > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > Do we really need a LA Committee? The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders this in my opinion. What would they do anyway? Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this work? Binh. From jdub at perkypants.org Sat May 17 23:52:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Sat May 17 23:52:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> > Do we really need a LA Committee? As Linux Australia, Inc. is an incorporated association, yes, we do. > The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to > be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders > this in my opinion. Why so? Most major Open Source projects have incorporated associations backing them up with the 'real world' stuff (ie. money). Debian (SPI), Apache (Apache Foundation), GNOME (GNOME Foundation), etc. Generally, these organisations are explicitly designed to be independent of development issues. That said, there is a natural heirarchy in most functioning Open Source / Free Software projects regardless of legal issues such as incorporation. > What would they do anyway? s/would/do... They carry out the objectives of the organisation: http://linux.org.au/org/ > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this > work? The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. However, don't be under the impression that 'proper' FOSS projects are in any way democratic. Most are powerfully non-democratic. - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Of course i can see iso-8859-1 characters, I'm French." - Christian Marillat From dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au Sun May 18 00:18:02 2003 From: dtnguyen at ecr.mu.oz.au (Dai_Thai NGUYEN) Date: Sun May 18 00:18:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Do we really need a LA Committee? > > As Linux Australia, Inc. is an incorporated association, yes, we do. > > > The beauty of Linux is its ability to allow people from any background to > > be able to contribute is it not? Having a hierarchal structure hinders > > this in my opinion. > > Why so? Most major Open Source projects have incorporated associations > backing them up with the 'real world' stuff (ie. money). Debian (SPI), > Apache (Apache Foundation), GNOME (GNOME Foundation), etc. Generally, these > organisations are explicitly designed to be independent of development > issues. > > That said, there is a natural heirarchy in most functioning Open Source / > Free Software projects regardless of legal issues such as incorporation. I suppose this has something to do with my upbringing. I've never really trusted beureaucrats/politicians and I doubt that I ever will. Even when I have been involved in administration/management I've found that internal bickering between contrasting personalities leads to counter productivity. Anyway, as long as it works. > > What would they do anyway? > > s/would/do... They carry out the objectives of the organisation: > > http://linux.org.au/org/ That's one heck of a constitution. I saw that members were supposed to meet regularly. Who would pay for travel? > > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? How would this > > work? > The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. Could you please tell me who votes for them? > However, don't be under the impression that 'proper' FOSS projects are in > any way democratic. Most are powerfully non-democratic. > > - Jeff > > -- > GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ > > "Of course i can see iso-8859-1 characters, I'm French." - Christian > Marillat > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From jdub at perkypants.org Sun May 18 05:11:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Sun May 18 05:11:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: References: <20030517154356.GB19724@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030517210835.GC19724@lazarus> > > The LA committee is democratically elected as per the constitution. > > Could you please tell me who votes for them? The membership. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "2.4.1ac17 is full of innovations and should be used with caution." - Linux Weekly News From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Sun May 18 06:18:01 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Sun May 18 06:18:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> Ummm... > Do we really need a LA Committee? I am going to put my ballerina shoes and do pirouettes. Mind you pointing you at: * http://www.linux.org.au/org/constitution.phtml ...is probably more helpful. > The beauty of Linux is its ability > to allow people from any background to be able to contribute is it > not? In what way does Linux Australia (Inc) detract from this? > Having a hierarchal structure hinders this in my opinion. What > would they do anyway? Not being an incorporated entity--and therefore a legal nobody--is worse. Organisations can work well with a committee. The best thing about committees is that you generally have at least five to seven people who ensure things get done. This can also turn into you have five to seven people who get to do everything because noone else is willing to help. > Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic > vote? But then who counts the votes? And what if a consensus can't be found? Damn, someone would have to adjudicate the results. But that's too hierarchical isn't it. > How would this work? Like it has been... DSL -- Sing a new song, chiquitita! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030518/0454da65/attachment-0001.pgp From jeremy at austux.net Sun May 18 10:56:01 2003 From: jeremy at austux.net (Jeremy Lunn) Date: Sun May 18 10:56:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 01:08:04AM +1000, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > Where do I find out details about doing this specifically with LA ? There'd be no details on it per say, though the majority of LA committee would have to agree on it. > What are the benefits? Over incorporating a separate entity, there would be reduced administrative overheads. That's about all really (apart from perhaps having greater influence over getting funding out of LA :D). If you don't mind filing an annual financial report to corporate affairs, maintaining a membership register and a few other trivial things then there probably isn't a huge difference. Of course LA would have more control over things, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even so, I think that the editor has the final word about content (I've known an organisation where they sacked the President because hey changed something in a newsletter without asking anyone, right before it went to print). Either way, incorporating as a separate entity or doing it under the wing of LA, is certainly better than as an individual with unlimited liablity. I personally don't think that incorporation is too much of a hassle (though it does entail a little bit of work) if you want indepedance, though I seriously doubt LA would hinder that. -- Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia "testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is perfect". -- Linus Torvalds From kim at linmagau.org Sun May 18 11:55:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Sun May 18 11:55:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> Message-ID: <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:55:34PM +1000, Jeremy Lunn wrote: > Over incorporating a separate entity, there would be reduced > administrative overheads. That's about all really (apart from perhaps > having greater influence over getting funding out of LA :D). If you > don't mind filing an annual financial report to corporate affairs, > maintaining a membership register and a few other trivial things then > there probably isn't a huge difference. Probably much the same amount of ongoing "red tape".. perhaps just a little more inital work as a seperate entity. > > Either way, incorporating as a separate entity or doing it under the > wing of LA, is certainly better than as an individual with unlimited > liablity. I personally don't think that incorporation is too much of a > hassle (though it does entail a little bit of work) if you want > indepedance, though I seriously doubt LA would hinder that. Agreed, the current LA committee is obviously supportive but future evolutions may not be so :( this is true of all "motherships".. Rules set now might get amended at a later date, as has recently happened within another "organisation" in our "community". :).. I shall continue to investigate doing Inc as a seperate entity. Then when someone comes to sue LinMagAU they can take all the assets away..which would amount to errmm a ream of paper I guess :) Thanks for the feedback :) Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org From j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au Sun May 18 12:42:02 2003 From: j-conversations at decisions-and-designs.com.au (Jacqueline McNally) Date: Sun May 18 12:42:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> References: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> LinMagAU has published three issues in as many months. This is a remarkable achievement, given the short lead up time and current resources. The most important resource being that of the contributors, and especially Kim herself. >Basically LinMagAU is me at the back end:) >the authors are all single entities, not bound to LinMagAu in anyway, >nor is LinMagAU to the authors.. we run a standard copyright at >the footer of the pages.. As suggested by others I consider a review date would be appropriate, perhaps at 6 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 1 year. Or, 3 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 6 months. If the project is a huge success say next month, Kim may not have the resources to cope with her new readers (online or paper). Would a review allow Kim to request additional grant monies, or would that need to be a new grant request? My only concern is that it appears that LinMagAU is Kim, and Kim is LinMagAU. The "what if" for me, is if Kim becomes unavailable and no longer has the time to publish LinMagAU, what happens ? Perhaps Kim would consider making a first offer to LA if anything was to occur such that she could not continue with the publication. >Whilst I understand incorporation and other legal company issues may >be relevant in the future, right now, we have no incoming $'s at all.. >(with the exception of LA's offer which is not approved as yet). >So far no one has been paid, no one is employed by "LinMagAU".. $200/month is a modest request and while I do not feel that it will cover all of the real costs described in the grant proposal, this is what Kim has proposed and feels will get the LinMagAU project underway. All the best Jacqueline McNally www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand OpenOffice.org Marketing Project (www.openoffice.org) Are you a computer angel? (www.ca.asn.au) From kim at linmagau.org Sun May 18 13:27:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Sun May 18 13:27:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> References: <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030518120817.00b659d0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> Message-ID: <20030518052558.GC19510@linmagau.org> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:42:33PM +0800, Jacqueline McNally wrote: > LinMagAU has published three issues in as many months. This is a remarkable > achievement, given the short lead up time and current resources. The most > important resource being that of the contributors, and especially Kim > herself. :).. thanks for the kind words.. It is of course all the authors who finally gave into my nagging that made the issues such a success so far :) > > As suggested by others I consider a review date would be appropriate, > perhaps at 6 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 1 year. Or, > 3 month intervals based on a committment from LA for 6 months. If the > project is a huge success say next month, Kim may not have the resources to > cope with her new readers (online or paper). Would a review allow Kim to > request additional grant monies, or would that need to be a new grant > request? A review date is a good idea.. as in the original request I mentioned a period of 3months in which to get a pro-type "newsletter inhouse built" hard copy, perhaps that in itself is a good time for a first review ? I am not sure what happens if we don't meet the guidelines on time :) but I would think that each project(this included) would be reviewed and discussion between the project lead and LA committee would take place.. I guess case by case is the way to go now, in the early stages of this kind of sponsorship by LA: > > My only concern is that it appears that LinMagAU is Kim, and Kim is > LinMagAU. The "what if" for me, is if Kim becomes unavailable and no longer > has the time to publish LinMagAU, what happens ? /me crossed her fingers for a job.. would this be so :).. Seriously this has concerned me a little too.. I would hope that "when/if" this happens someone else would step up to the plate and take the bat :) Time will tell I guess.. I have a list of folks I would hassle tucked away :) > > Perhaps Kim would consider making a first offer to LA if anything was to > occur such that she could not continue with the publication. Agreed, LA and (hopefully to come )other sponsors would be the first to know. > $200/month is a modest request and while I do not feel that it will cover > all of the real costs described in the grant proposal, this is what Kim has > proposed and feels will get the LinMagAU project underway. I discussed this with some of the committee members prior to making the request, so that I was at least being realistic.. my biggest concern was (and still is) just covering my out of pocket expenses.. my time comes free.. although perhaps with all this talk of Incorporation, I might spin off my own CMS/Media consultancy.. and charge like a wounded bull :) Naturally I would do another application :):) In reality, whilst I am unemployed I think this is a valuable way to spend my time, and so long as my actual costs are covered I am pretty happy.. > All the best Thanks again for the support Jacqueline & all others. Kim -- http://www.linmagau.org > Jacqueline McNally > www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline > > Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand > OpenOffice.org Marketing Project > (www.openoffice.org) > > Are you a computer angel? (www.ca.asn.au) > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From stewartsmith at mac.com Mon May 19 09:30:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Mon May 19 09:30:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet Message-ID: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, The Linux Australia Committee had our first (excluding just after election at LCA03) face-to-face meeting over the past weekend. Many thanks to other committee members who gave up their precious time to help make LA a better organization. Many positive things have come out of our meeting, and we will be posting them here for all to see and comment on. Just give us some time to neaten up some notes and transcribe a bunch of stuff. Personally, I'm extremely happy with how much we managed to achieve and go through this weekend and look forward to the positive discussion on-list about the topics concerned. Special thanks to Pia&Jeff for putting myself and Leon up for our stay in Sydney, Andrew Cowie for some really good preparation and presentation of process (I really can't think of a good way to word it, but it really helped and you'll hear the outcomes) and, of course, the entire committee for putting forward such great ideas. (I didn't really intend to start a rant on "how good are we!", but I'm allowed to feel good on a sunday night :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 19 09:58:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 19 09:58:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet In-Reply-To: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030519015624.GP15241@cyber.com.au> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:02:36PM +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: > Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, Stewart, you really must tell me how you manage to type on your laptop, whilst sky-diving and whilst wearing breathing apparatus... *G* -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From greebo at pacific.net.au Mon May 19 22:11:01 2003 From: greebo at pacific.net.au (Pia Smith) Date: Mon May 19 22:11:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Of course the next thing, is finding the 5/6 folks who might be interested > > > in being on the exec ?.. Perhaps a LA rep would be great ? > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some other > > affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, existing > > association). I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia separate is probably a good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent view of Linux Australia and other groups. Maybe get a few interested people together as a SIG, LA could help to set this up and possibly help support it in other ways (will have to evaluate), but Linux Australia would rather put in place a system so that linmagau is not tied to the direction of Linux Australia. We don't want to run it, or make a system that would allow future LA committees to run it, Kim is doing a great job, and we hope to support her in that! :) The 3/6 month idea seems to be a good idea. Maybe commit to the funds for 3 months, with a report from Kim at the end of that time to set up the next 3 months, and so on. Regards, Pia -- Pia Smith From jdub at perkypants.org Mon May 19 22:37:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Mon May 19 22:37:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <1053351570.4972.15430.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <20030519143357.GP20447@lazarus> > > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd be > > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or some > > > other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another appropriate, > > > existing association). > > I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia separate is probably a > good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent view of Linux Australia > and other groups. (For what it's worth, I really strongly agree.) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ Broken hearts rarely come with "Some Assembly Required" stickers. From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Tue May 20 08:02:02 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue May 20 08:02:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516093346.10379846.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030516074153.GA6129@austux.net> <20030516083757.GA439@linmagau.org> <20030516104211.GA9272@austux.net> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518025534.GA3012@austux.net> <20030518035353.GA19510@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030520093143.7cff4915.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Kim, > :).. I shall continue to investigate doing Inc as a seperate entity. > Then when someone comes to sue LinMagAU they can take all the assets > away..which would amount to errmm a ream of paper I guess :) Not necessarily--if the "directors" of an association have not acted diligently in their duties they can be sued for their personal belongings as well. One can get zapped if: * one fails to understand obvious financial misreporting * one fails to attempt to do something about financial misdemeanors - i.e. they may happen but if you can demonstrate that you saw them and were attempting to rectify them [but the 6 other directors all voted against getting an audit] then you're safe * other ways DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030520/4d5b9cfe/attachment-0001.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 08:55:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 08:55:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> References: <1053037143.4972.8224.camel@fehung> <20030516105921.GB3890@linmagau.org> <20030516173118.GJ28837@lazarus> Message-ID: <200305200858.40458.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sat, 17 May 2003 01:31, Jeff Waugh wrote: > >> finding the 5/6 folks who might be >> interested in being on the exec...? Perhaps a LA rep would be great? > I think that if you're seriously considering doing this, that you'd > be better off becoming a Special Interest Group or sub-committee or > some other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or another > appropriate, existing association). Agree. It would make insurance and lots of other things simpler. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:13:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 09:13:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] LA Committee (was: Grant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305200916.29253.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sun, 18 May 2003 00:17, Dai_Thai NGUYEN wrote: > I've never > really trusted beureaucrats/politicians and I doubt that I ever will. That's well-placed trust. (-: > Even when I have been involved in administration/management I've > found that internal bickering between contrasting personalities leads > to counter productivity. I think in this place _very_ much not. Disclaimer: I am an LA OCM. What I say will be biassed by this. I've worked with and in a few committees now, and the current LA committee works singularly well. As with any organisation of any size, some effort is "wasted" in conlict and in overheads. Unlike many of the committees I've worked in, these differences are made productive, with very little guarding-of-territory and no hackles-up factionation. Even Hugh and Tridge, both of whom work with each other at IBM, have distinct and different viewpoints, personalities and approaches (and it must be said: evidently both have enormous depth of experience at working with groups and committees, perhaps this helps more than it shows). Every person on that Committee has quite distinct wishes and priorities. Every single person on that Committee has shown themselves willing, even eager to give ground if a superior, or more practical, or simply more popular option is advanced, or if real flaws and concerns are unearthed in one of their own issues du jour. In this regard, we hew closely to the "meritocracy" (seemed to be Word of the Day for Tridge on Sunday) so dear to Linus' heart, and who better to establish the character of a Linux-based group than Linus? There are no dummies. There are no hyperegos. There are no knives in the back. Pray that it stays that way! We have reps from big companies, small companies, employees, males, females, four Australian states, inner-city dwellers, country boys, programmers, managers. I suppose we could do with Asian, Aboriginal and Negro representatives too, but we're doing pretty well on all other fronts already. So... nobody's perfect, Dai Thai Nguyen, but IMESHO opinion we've got a good deal going for us so far, worth getting behind and pushing rather than regarding with fear and trembling from the sidelines. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:19:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 09:19:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sun, 18 May 2003 06:23, David Lloyd wrote: > I am going to put my ballerina shoes and do pirouettes. _Please_ no! (-: > Not being an incorporated entity--and therefore a legal nobody--is > worse. Organisations can work well with a committee. The best thing > about committees is that you generally have at least five to seven > people who ensure things get done. This can also turn into you have > five to seven people who get to do everything because noone else is > willing to help. /ME shutting up now. (-: >> Also, shouldn't there be some sort of democratic vote? There is. LA Ctte was elected on a vote. Non-obvious decisions are made within Ctte on a vote. > But then who counts the votes? Officially, the Secretary (in the case of the election, Rusty :-) > And what if a consensus can't be found? Hasn't happened yet. If it does, more debate would ensue until someone changed their mind. Otherwise, we all leave in a huff, stop talking to each other, and any heirarchical worries are history. (-: > Damn, someone would have to adjudicate the results. The bastards! How could they? (-: > But that's too hierarchical isn't it. Three levels. Members, Committee, tiebreaker. Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election as proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, with or without office. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 09:28:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 09:28:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] thanks from 30,000 feet In-Reply-To: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <9D859B36-8928-11D7-9AE4-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <200305200931.53713.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sun, 18 May 2003 20:02, Stewart Smith wrote: > Many positive things have come out of our meeting Agree. > Special thanks to Pia&Jeff for putting myself and Leon up for our > stay in Sydney, Agree. > Andrew Cowie for some really good preparation and > presentation of process (I really can't think of a good way to word > it, but it really helped and you'll hear the outcomes) Very much agree. It should be said that Andrew didn't get everything he wanted, so any bias he put into the construction of "the process" seems to have been submerged. Thanks are also due to Pia's workplace for the venue. Off-topic, but worth saying: The seats on VirginBlue 'planes suck, but the hosties are excellent. Talking to a newbie (3 weeks on the job) hostie, their last induction was 2000 people, of which only 30 were chosen (4 of them male) to go through training. VirginBlue would be delighted to get more male hosties, BTW, so if you're looking for a *different* kind of job... (-: Back on topic (ish): one of the hosties on the way across knew about Linux - I was wearing an LA tee-shirt - her previous boyfriend had been a Linux consultant (I have no idea who he was, she's a very pretty slim tallish blonde with a Nordic look and name). The internet kiosks in Perth airport have been switched from Windows to Linux (or at least X) but the ones at Sydney airport have not, and neither have those at the Northern Territory terrorism office/shop at Darling Harbour. Rip into 'em, SLUG members! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au Tue May 20 10:14:02 2003 From: andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au (Andrew Cowie) Date: Tue May 20 10:14:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <20030518075333.54f7a839.lloy0076@adam.com.au> <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> [My, hasn't this thread wavered from it's title?] On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 11:22, Leon Brooks wrote: > Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election as > proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, with or > without office. I'd like to pick up on Leon's last point. I've heard tell that one of the challenges faced by many of the Community / User Group style associations here in Australia is that the Committee ends up doing all the work, to the benefit of the membership. This is fine, of course, and willingness to put work in is one of the criteria to being nominated to the Committee of any volunteer organization. I have, however, heard from quite a few people who indicate a willingness to participate and contribute. You don't have to be on the [managing] Committee [aka Board] of an organization to make a difference! One of the reasons we put a fair number of things out to this mailing list is to invite your feedback and comment. The other is to invite participation; as we proceed towards encouraging and supporting the community, we'll certainly be grateful of any help, enthusiasm or energy you can provide. There are a few projects and initiatives that we'll be circulating here. You've already started to see requests for Grant support; there's certainly the annual technical conference LCA which can always use your help. We're working to implement a membership database so we can make joining LA easier, to go along with a makeover of our website to make information more accessible. And, we're looking into other ways to support the community. So, if you see something that catches your eye in the weeks and months ahead, and you think you'd like to contribute, just let us know! AfC Secretary [until y'all boot me out next summer] Linux Australia -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au From anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au Tue May 20 11:03:01 2003 From: anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?=) Date: Tue May 20 11:03:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> While everyone's still on this thread, it seems to be getting a bit OT, I'm sorting through all of this, please change it to ..... was: Grant aplpication #2, or else I'll get a headache quickly, lol. John http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au Tue May 20 11:14:02 2003 From: anarchisttomato at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?=) Date: Tue May 20 11:14:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Grant Application #2 In-Reply-To: <20030519143357.GP20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030520031331.16432.qmail@web20301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 03:31:18AM +1000, Jeff > Waugh wrote: > > > > I think that if you're seriously considering > doing this, that you'd be > > > > better off becoming a Special Interest Group > or sub-committee or some > > > > other affiliate group of Linux Australia (or > another appropriate, > > > > existing association). > > > > I'd suggest keeping linmagau and Linux Australia > separate is probably a > > good thing, as it gives linmagau an independent > view of Linux Australia > > and other groups. > > (For what it's worth, I really strongly agree.) > > - Jeff I'll second that, I think the *nix population in general would be pretty annoyed and bored with an 'organisation friendly' slanted magazine. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Tue May 20 11:17:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue May 20 11:17:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Helping Linux-Aus In-Reply-To: <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030520030227.23215.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030520124701.5c279874.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Ok... Is there a list where volunteers can lurk and a coordinator (probably the committee) can say things like: "L.A. needs [a pouch of tobacco | someone to wash the dishes]"...i.e. is this the appropriate list? DSL -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030520/0878a516/attachment-0001.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Tue May 20 11:19:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Tue May 20 11:19:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] contributing to LA (was: Grant) In-Reply-To: <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> References: <20030517150804.GB3402@linmagau.org> <200305200922.16176.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053396752.6097.16.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200305201121.35889.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Tue, 20 May 2003 10:12, Andrew Cowie wrote: > [My, hasn't this thread wavered from it's title?] Never seen _that_ happen before. ( :-) > On Tue, 2003-05-20 at 11:22, Leon Brooks wrote: >> Anyone's welcome to get themselves elected (I rate my own election >> as proof that anyone can). Anyone's welcome to contribute, too, >> with or without office. > I'd like to pick up on Leon's last point. I've heard tell that one of > the challenges faced by many of the Community / User Group style > associations here in Australia is that the Committee ends up doing > all the work, to the benefit of the membership. > This is fine, of course, and willingness to put work in is one of the > criteria to being nominated to the Committee of any volunteer > organization. > I have, however, heard from quite a few people who indicate a > willingness to participate and contribute. You don't have to be on > the [managing] Committee [aka Board] of an organization to make a > difference! Case in point: MissKim - no board/committee, no formal organisation at all, but she's certainly making a difference! Note that she's both helping and being helped by LA, the ideal circumstance. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au Tue May 20 15:44:02 2003 From: xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Tue May 20 15:44:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Committee Meeting & thanks from 30,000 feet In-Reply-To: <20030519015624.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:26 AM, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:02:36PM +1000, Stewart Smith wrote: >> Just a quick note from 30,000 feet above southern NSW, > > Stewart, you really must tell me how you manage to type on your laptop, > whilst sky-diving and whilst wearing breathing apparatus... *G* Apple Airport - don't underestimate its power. R > -- > _______________________________________________________________________ > ______ > Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 > 9621 2377 > Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development > www.cyber.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 ICQ: 76626240 IRC: xf / irc.oublinet.net PH: +61 418 186 604 EQ: Mummer (Bard), Tholuxe In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+ydx1Rcxk39PM6wcRAod7AJ9W6u104FxMZGQpotHFeWG3CiCaFACggeFg konGZo9dof0wMPBEnMyApRc= =CbTC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au Tue May 20 21:32:02 2003 From: andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au (Andrew Cowie) Date: Tue May 20 21:32:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] OSI weighs in on the SCO case Message-ID: <1053437438.19923.20.camel@localhost> [Google News pointed at an article running on Slashdot, pointing at this article, largely authored by Eric Raymond] We had a discussion here last week about the history of Unix, the AT&T vs BSD lawsuit, and the suit launched by SCO against IBM. The Open Source Initiative has weighed in with an amicus cuirae brief. http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html It makes for insightful reading. AfC -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics Consulting Pty Ltd Australia +61 2 9977 6866 North America +1 646 270 5376 andrew at operationaldynamics.com.au From leon at cyberknights.com.au Wed May 21 11:41:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Wed May 21 11:41:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Statement on SCO Message-ID: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> I'd like to see a joint official statement from LA and SLPWA on SCO's storm-in-a-teacup and get it into the newspapers. Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to intellectual property), and assuring the business community that using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. The idea is to complement Con's release rather than reiterating it, to show FOSS groups acting cooperatively, and to get two more names before the public eye in a positive light. Before I set fingers to keyboard, I'd like to hear Jeremy Malcolm's pro-bono opinion on the above points, and y'all opining both on the content front and the desirability or otherwise of a joint media statement. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Wed May 21 14:28:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Wed May 21 14:28:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45, Leon Brooks wrote: > Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission > process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the > kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring > SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities > (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), > deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation > by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual > property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking > to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to > intellectual property), and assuring the business community that > using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. OK... take 1: BEGIN SPIEL Linux Australia (LA) and the Society of Linux Professionals Western Australia (SLPWA) have come under increasing pressure to respond to the Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) accusations of wholesale code plagiarism in the Linux kernel. SCO continue to disparage the quality control systems involved in assembling the Linux kernel, but those systems have driven Linux development to capabilities only dreamed of by SCO's own UNIX product, and at a much higher pace. Linux now runs on SGI's 64-to-512-processor Altix 3000 systems, and powers thousand-processor Beowulf supercomputing clusters. The same Linux quality control systems would have seen the modification or almost certainly rejection of any code from SCO UNIX, no matter how well disguised. The internals of the two systems are arranged in a very different manner, so it would make little sense to graft code from one kernel into the other. The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many substantial errors of fact like this, which leads LA and SLPWA to the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their suit. SCO have freely published the source code in question themselves for some considerable time after filing the complaint under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the Linux kernel from subversion, so even if the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal sense. Many important industry commentators are concluding that widespread Linux adoption is not just safe but inevitable. We also note that Microsoft have now bought a licence to use UNIX code from SCO despite having no real purpose for it. That act appears to be designed to sustain the confusion raised by SCO's mistake. We openly appeal to SCO to admit their mistake, apologise and withdraw their charge. We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is running out of growth areas, and will die if they do not grow, and assert that unless they are prepared to become consistently trustworthy, fair players they will not easily be able to enter the new markets they will inevitably need. END SPIEL Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 14:53:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 14:53:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> > We also note that Microsoft have now bought a licence to use UNIX code > from SCO despite having no real purpose for it. That act appears to be > designed to sustain the confusion raised by SCO's mistake. > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is running > out of growth areas, and will die if they do not grow, and assert that > unless they are prepared to become consistently trustworthy, fair players > they will not easily be able to enter the new markets they will inevitably > need. Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. You will make a much stronger point if you stick to the facts, and don't delve into emotional crap that interests no one else but us (this harmed the otherwise very good OSI position paper too). Further comments on subsequent reads. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "What inspired you to become a bus driver?" "Linus Torvalds." From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Wed May 21 15:07:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Wed May 21 15:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeff, > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. I'd also point out: What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? I thought *anyone* could purchase such a licence, just that the licence was beyond the usual individuals' or companies' reach. Also the "Microsoft shouldn't be purchasing Unix licences" camp fall into another particular trap. If we want to share our ideas a community, we place them under the GPL/BSD licence or whatever. That is to say, the open source community respects the open source licences. So, if Microsoft decide to use some of the Unix source code to improve their line of products shouldn't they behave themselves and purchase the correct licence? Sure...it will cost them more than if Unix (that thing owned by SCO) were under the BSD licence or GPL but they're still playing by the rules. So, at one minute we're saying "Learn as a community, play by the rules" but then saying "But we don't want Microsoft to learn from a community". I find that illogical. (but my logic often is convoluted and fails me) DSL - -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yyVpNBhAwwyvg/kRAoKkAJ9tBhDcJKZGAQN5H25rtP7fDmLs+wCZARvY f7KLY29qoha+QLNBsYABj80= =LHFt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 15:15:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 15:15:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521070228.GQ20447@lazarus> > OK... take 1: Actually, before I comment on the content further... Who is the audience (assuming that it's not the same audience who have already read the OSI position statement)? Does this speak to them? Is it relevant to them? Does it provide more information to them than a pointer to and statement of support of the OSI position paper? What is the message you're trying to get across to this audience? Has someone already said it better? Will this add to the debate, or detract from it through signal-to-noise? It's a good doc, but I'm not sure who it's for / why it's needed / whether its better than existing material. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "People who paid for bug fixes in the 3c501 driver also bought MacIIfx support contracts..." - Alan Cox From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 16:21:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 16:21:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 02:32:03PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:45, Leon Brooks wrote: > > Something along the lines of the GPL and the kernel patch submission > > process providing extreme screening protection against exactly the > > kind of apparently baseless complaints that SCO is raising, deploring > > SCO's sustained ignorance of Linux's importance and capabilities > > (maybe mention SGI's Altix and the Beowulf system en passant), > > deploring the capital Microsoft is making of an unfortunate situation > > by sticking their oar in (note that the GPL depends on intellectual > > property laws for its operation and that what MS and SCO are seeking > > to protect is the "right" to play dog-in-the-manger, not the right to > > intellectual property), and assuring the business community that > > using Linux is not only safe but pretty much inevitable. > > OK... take 1: > > BEGIN SPIEL > > Linux Australia (LA) and the Society of Linux Professionals Western > Australia (SLPWA) have come under increasing pressure to respond to the > Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) accusations of wholesale code plagiarism > in the Linux kernel. > > SCO continue to disparage the quality control systems involved in > assembling the Linux kernel, but those systems have driven Linux > development to capabilities only dreamed of by SCO's own UNIX product, > and at a much higher pace. Linux now runs on SGI's 64-to-512-processor > Altix 3000 systems, and powers thousand-processor Beowulf > supercomputing clusters. Recommend to spend as little time as possible on a technical pro-Linux stance, even though we all agree with these statements. How about: "SCO were once a dominant player in the Unix-on-Intel marketplace, yet failed to capitalise on this dominance with their legacy UNIX platform. Linux, written from the ground-up, in a public and openly accountable manner, has managed to fairly-and-squarely defeat SCO's product line, by offering a better product at better value, benefitting all consumers of IT. SCO is pursuing this case in a desperate effort to compete by way of baseless injection of fear and doubt rather than through legitimate open and fair competition" ... > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. Acts such as this, are also Microsoft's only means of trying to slow the rampant growth of Linux and lend weight to industry-wide realisation that the company has no other methods for dealing with Linux's threat to their core product line." con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 16:33:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 16:33:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> > > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is > > "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support > SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no verifiable evidence". ;-) Why all the effort to score points on MS? - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ The implementation of any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from pr0n. From mikal at stillhq.com Wed May 21 17:07:24 2003 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Wed May 21 17:07:24 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Leon Brooks wrote: > I'd like to see a joint official statement from LA and SLPWA on SCO's > storm-in-a-teacup and get it into the newspapers. You should talk to AUUG about coming to the party -- they have good media contacts as well, and should be seen to take a stance on this. Cheers, Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal at stillhq.com) | Stage 1: Steal underpants http://www.stillhq.com | Stage 2: ???? UTC + 10 | Stage 3: Profit From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 20:04:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 20:04:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 04:36:18PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Jeff, > > > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. > > I'd also point out: > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to this fact? Not a chance. Although I'd agree with Jeff and possibly excise any comments on Microsoft, if Leon wants to include something, we need to ensure that people understand that Microsoft's actions in no way validate SCO's position. The only reason that Microsoft has elected to act in this way, at this juncture, as should be obvious to all observers, is to seek maximal damage to Linux, and try and fan Microsoft's claim that Linux is somehow 'illegal' or a 'cancerous infliction' on righteous and proper firms like SCO. This is why Microsoft has been claiming '...unlike some, we respect the intellectual property rights of others.' Oh really? Read this: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml and this: Timeline has won a recent ruling which exposes all Microsoft SQL Server developers to a serious patent encumbrance. The following was reported in the trade-press: The judgment concerns a contract dispute between Timeline Inc. and Microsoft, over three patents relating to datamarts. In Microsoft's interpretration of its licence with Timeline, published in a press release in July 1999, "all users of Microsoft SQL Server 7, Office 2000 and other Microsoft products that utilize this type of technology are unencumbered by Timeline's patents." Timeline disagreed. The Washington Court of Appeal judgement plumped for the company. The company reckons that some SQL Server developers could face bills in the millions of dollars. The "damages they face may be material to Timeline's future financial results," Charles Osenbaugh, Timeline's president and CEO. (Sources: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/29419.html and http://news.com.com/2100-1001- 985359.html) con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 20:12:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 20:12:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 06:30:02PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > We openly appeal to Microsoft to play nicely with the Internet community > > > instead of working to sow confusion. We realise that Microsoft is > > > > "It is apprarent that Microsoft, by choosing this time to support > > SCO, is focussed primarily on Machiavellian point-scoring exercises. > > I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no > verifiable evidence". ;-) Invoking the Prince in all matters of deceitful practice is always fun, no? > > Why all the effort to score points on MS? Don't look at me :-) I'm merely making a suggestion to slightly polish Leon's original piece. con ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 20:35:03 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 20:35:03 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> > > I didn't realise "Machiavellian" could be used interchangably with "no > > verifiable evidence". ;-) > > Invoking the Prince in all matters of deceitful practice is always fun, > no? If you were doing a parody of yourself, sure. "Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!" > ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark > fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 So, it's okay for us to be as thoroughly stupid as the sensationalist press that has built and tugged this story for all it's worth? I would like to see some pretty solid evidence before sticking my nose into the conspiracy theorist's pie... - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "But in the software world, that's daily business." - Kent Beck "That's pissing money away and leaving scar tissue." - Alan Cooper From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 20:37:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 20:37:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> > > > Immediately upon initial reading: I'd strongly recommend canning all > > > of the MS related stuff. It doesn't help or relate to your point, and > > > is all conjecture and conspiracy theories at the moment anyway. > > > > I'd also point out: > > > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm flabbergasted that everyone is squealing like children about this. We don't have to -> we're better than that. > Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their > current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do > you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to > this fact? Not a chance. Remember also that Caldera's previous target was none other than... Microsoft. Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the real thing"? The fact is, we don't know, it's all conjecture, and we just look like kids pointing at the bogeyman in the closet everytime we complain that Microsoft is "being unfair". We're better than that. > Although I'd agree with Jeff and possibly excise any comments on > Microsoft, if Leon wants to include something, we need to ensure that > people understand that Microsoft's actions in no way validate SCO's > position. Mentioning it validates it. First rule of combative marketing: Never say "there's nothing to see here". It's not relevant to the point (SCO's inane initial filing and subsequent FUD), and it's fact-free FUD repetition (at this stage, because there is *no evidence* to suggest a relationship so far) -> but it's FUD perpetrated by us! > The only reason that Microsoft has elected to act in this way, at this > juncture, as should be obvious to all observers, is to seek maximal damage > to Linux, and try and fan Microsoft's claim that Linux is somehow > 'illegal' or a 'cancerous infliction' on righteous and proper firms like > SCO. > > This is why Microsoft has been claiming '...unlike some, we respect the > intellectual property rights of others.' Oh really? > > Read this: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml > > and this: ... flame, flame, flame... C'mon. We're better than this. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "I tried to make money ass signing, but the bottom fell out of the market." - Liam Quin From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Wed May 21 20:51:01 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Wed May 21 20:51:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: Hi, 2 cents worth of input.. Jeff Waugh asked: >Who is the audience >(assuming that it's not the same audience >who have already read the OSI >position statement)? I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or does already make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel Based. Specifically those already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who were considering Linux. I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with POS terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux as the only easy answer. That's not correct, but it is what they suggest. >Does this speak to them? Is it relevant to them? >Does >it provide more information to them than a >pointer to and statement of >support of the OSI position paper? The audience I have suggested is not interested in the technical issues. All comment from "our side" to date, has been directed at US, not the end users in Enterprise. The comments are good, but they don't mean much to an SME. This particular audience, SMEs, may only chose to see that SCO is taking the FOSS movement to task because of perceived plagarism. So much so that SCO seek to charge Linux adopters for code that has appeared in the SMEs chosen platform, namely Linux. If "perception is swung a little further, Open Source for SMEs will suffer a dramatic reversal in current enquiry rates.... (and I will be eating wheat instead of bread....:-) >What is the message you're trying to get >across to this audience? Don't worry all you SMEs. This SCO thing is silly and we consider the whole action a farce deemed to scare you away and prevent you from enjoying the savings and robustness that is inherent in Open Source. We need to offer up a suggestion for enterprises which reflects our concerns but expresses our firm belief in the whole thing being nonsensical, a mere sidestep towards the inevitable. >Has someone already said it better? No, and fairly soon, the issue will filter down from the technical arena and it will be "demystified" for an SMEs easy consumption and understanding. My humble opinion is that this is the area of concern and required action. Can you get something out there that helps to influence the "demystifying text" that will appear if this story gets really mainstream? (By that I mean something like an extended Fin Review article in Fridays edition...the one that an SME operator takes home on the weekend to read and learn because the stories are pertinent yet written for easy consumption...) >Will this add to the debate, or detract >from it through signal-to-noise? If sustained "techy foot-stamping"* concerning this matter hit's an SMEs ears, it will be a bounding leap back for the uptake of Free and Open Source Software. This outcome would probably be fulfilling one of SCOs goals. >It's a good doc, but I'm not sure who it's for / why it's needed / whether >its better than existing material. I concur, a good doc, and I think the idea is sound, but could you consider the SME audience instead? BW *I do not suggest that anyone here is stamping their feet, but there is a rising element of this in many lists and groups concerning SCO. From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 22:36:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 22:36:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:28:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > ps: we wouldn't be the first ones to interweave Microsoft into this dark > > fiasco. To whit: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22C533A4 > > So, it's okay for us to be as thoroughly stupid as the sensationalist press > that has built and tugged this story for all it's worth? I would like to see > some pretty solid evidence before sticking my nose into the conspiracy > theorist's pie... I think you missed the point. I was indicating that in the minds of many industry publications (read the headlines) Microsoft is inexorably linked into this issue. What the trade-rags write about one day, the IT public believes the next. Sensationalist? Perhaps. But that's the way the world works. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 21 22:52:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 21 22:52:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 10:25:10PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > What is wrong with Microsoft purchasing a Unix licence from SCO? > > > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. > > How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence > that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm Where did I state that Microsoft are funding SCO? > flabbergasted that everyone is squealing like children about this. We don't > have to -> we're better than that. My point is that until Microsoft stepped up to the plate to render moral support to SCO, no other major IT firm was saying a good word about them. Microsoft buys into the argument, and suddenly SCO are saying 'look, we told you we had valuable IP rights. In fact, they are so valuable that Microsoft has signed an agreement with us, vindicating our attack on Linux.' Cluelessly aimed red herring? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Thus the posited counter-argument. > > > Remember, Microsoft have been purloining Unix/BSD code for years. Their > > current Unix Services product includes copious quantities of GPL code. Do > > you hear them sending out press-releases globally to alert the world to > > this fact? Not a chance. > > Remember also that Caldera's previous target was none other than... > Microsoft. Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL > code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the real thing"? Jeff, go and check out what Microsoft are including in SFU. I think you'll find that there is little on offer from SCO Unix which can match the quality of the GPL offerings. > > The fact is, we don't know, it's all conjecture, and we just look like kids > pointing at the bogeyman in the closet everytime we complain that Microsoft > is "being unfair". We're better than that. The aforemention item was an example raised within the confines of the LA mailing list. At no point did I suggest that we run with it publicly. However, the timing of the Microsoft deal with SCO cannot be excused so lightly. Remember, Microsoft aren't including pieces of the Linux kernel in SFU, so SCO's recent rants about IP issues with Linux are not what's causing Microsoft to suddenly sign a deal. Tactically, the only motivator is maximal damage point scoring off Linux, which I believe can be counter-argued effectively. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 23:15:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 23:15:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521070102.GP15241@cyber.com.au> <20030521083002.GT20447@lazarus> <20030521121050.GB16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122854.GA20447@lazarus> <20030521143510.GC16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521150130.GE20447@lazarus> > I think you missed the point. > > I was indicating that in the minds of many industry publications (read the > headlines) Microsoft is inexorably linked into this issue. What the > trade-rags write about one day, the IT public believes the next. > Sensationalist? Perhaps. But that's the way the world works. I think I covered that bit in the 'first rule of combative marketing' response. :-) - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 21 23:22:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 21 23:22:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> > > > because their actions are a clear-and-present act of belligerence. > > > > How on Earth so? Seriously, where is some relevant and reliable evidence > > that suggests Microsoft are indirectly funding SCO or helping them out? I'm > > Where did I state that Microsoft are funding SCO? You didn't. You suggested that their actions helped SCO out. > Microsoft buys into the argument, and suddenly SCO are saying 'look, we > told you we had valuable IP rights. In fact, they are so valuable that > Microsoft has signed an agreement with us, vindicating our attack on > Linux.' Cluelessly aimed red herring? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Thus the > posited counter-argument. Unfounded, completely lacking evidence, sensationalist conspiracy theory? Sure! MS have done a business deal for whatever reason. The trade press have hamfisted it up into an issue. Does that require a counter-argument? Jumping to conclusions and giving them the "there's nothing to see here" response is, come to think of it, remarkably like replying to spam on a public mailing list -> it just makes things worse. > Jeff, go and check out what Microsoft are including in SFU. I think you'll > find that there is little on offer from SCO Unix which can match the > quality of the GPL offerings. I use SFU. I know what's in it. My point, which you deftly missed to keep hammering home your own point, was that it doesn't matter what MS wants to do with their license to SCO's UNIX bits. It's irrelevant. > However, the timing of the Microsoft deal with SCO cannot be excused so > lightly. Remember, Microsoft aren't including pieces of the Linux kernel > in SFU, so SCO's recent rants about IP issues with Linux are not what's > causing Microsoft to suddenly sign a deal. Tactically, the only motivator > is maximal damage point scoring off Linux, which I believe can be > counter-argued effectively. Sorry, but this is unfounded, pointing-at-bogeyman silliness. Until someone gets up and publishes a Halloween-class document pointing to conspiratorial intrigue between Microsoft and SCO [1], I don't think we need to validate this inane sensationalist crap by recognising it at all. The fight that matters to us is making a public mockery of SCO's laughable initial filing, pointing out how serious the allegations are and why they matter very deeply to the FOSS community, and coming across as professional, capable, committed and confident in our software and community. Tilting at windmills and wailing at the big-bad-bogeyman of the IT industry is fundamentally irrelevant to those goals. If, however, your goal is to point out the failings of, and poke fun at MS at every opportunity (sometimes, it truly sounds like some people on this list only care about that), please go and have a good read of the Linux Advocacy HOWTO. [ Con, I'm not accusing you of not being a good advocate, I'm suggesting that this particular fight - the whole MS angle on the SCO thing - is not worth your effort. Unless you're in it for the exposure. ;-) ] - Jeff [1] script goes like this: McBride: Hey, you remember how we bought DR-DOS, sued your arses off, and settled for an undisclosed sum that has kept our company going for the last few years? Gates: ... Yes? McBride: So, we were thinking of doing the same to IBM. Wanna join in the fun? Gates: Please get out of my office you slimy, odious rodent. -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "Everyone's a little queer, why can't she be a little straight?" - Weezer, Pink Triangle From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 22 06:48:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 22 06:48:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> References: <200305211145.07016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305211432.03444.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030521064444.GN20447@lazarus> <20030521163618.45050c7f.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030521120308.GA16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521122510.GZ20447@lazarus> <20030521145118.GD16623@cyber.com.au> <20030521151757.GF20447@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030521224657.GE16623@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:17:57AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > Sorry, but this is unfounded, pointing-at-bogeyman silliness. Until someone > gets up and publishes a Halloween-class document pointing to conspiratorial > intrigue between Microsoft and SCO [1], I don't think we need to validate > this inane sensationalist crap by recognising it at all. Yes, in a perfect world, sticking to what has been validated as fact makes sense. But more often than not, it's perceptions that matter, and not reality. Anyways... > > The fight that matters to us is making a public mockery of SCO's laughable > initial filing, pointing out how serious the allegations are and why they > matter very deeply to the FOSS community, and coming across as professional, > capable, committed and confident in our software and community. > > Tilting at windmills and wailing at the big-bad-bogeyman of the IT industry > is fundamentally irrelevant to those goals. I'll re-iterate my post where I said that I agreed with your idea of excising the stuff about Microsoft. You'll note that in the OSV release, we made no mention of Microsoft at all. My input on Microsoft was in response to Leon's original press-release. ... > > [ Con, I'm not accusing you of not being a good advocate, I'm suggesting > that this particular fight - the whole MS angle on the SCO thing - is not > worth your effort. Unless you're in it for the exposure. ;-) ] How do you figure I'll get exposure from something like this? con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 08:52:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 08:52:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Jeff Waugh wrote: > Mentioning it validates it. First rule of combative marketing: > Never say "there's nothing to see here". True. What I wish to get across is not "nothing to see here" but "look, Linux's quality controls work, and the licence also works". Jeff also wrote: > Who is the audience (assuming that it's not the same audience who > have already read the OSI position statement)? Does this speak to > them? Brent Wallis replied: > We need to offer up a suggestion for enterprises which reflects > our concerns but expresses our firm belief in the whole thing > being nonsensical, a mere sidestep towards the inevitable. I agree with that. I believe our tactic for this "release" (or whatever) should focus on talking up Linux and FOSS and how well they're coping with spurious attacks. David Lloyd wrote: > So, if Microsoft decide to use some of the Unix source code to > improve their line of products shouldn't they behave themselves > and purchase the correct licence? Sure... it will cost them > more than if Unix (that thing owned by SCO) were under the BSD > licence or GPL but they're still playing by the rules. I join Con on this one in saying that it will not be an improvement on anything they already have. Very little of what SCO have to offer covers anything but the UNIX kernel, and I can't see any use for that in SFU or anything else Microsoft ship. Unless they've noted that in the last week two other 'phone providers have abandoned WinCE, and two *different* 'phone providers have declared for Linux, so are chasing a home-owned embedded derivative of SCO to replace WinCE with. Con Zymaris wrote: > My point is that until Microsoft stepped up to the plate to render > moral support to SCO, no other major IT firm was saying a good word > about them. I think we need to at least undermine this sneaky tactic and possibly make mileage from it. I think the closest we can get to a positive spin on it is mentioning how much Microsoft's approach seems to have improved since the TimeLine/MS-SQL-Server debacle surfaced. I think we need to touch on this - combative marketing rules or no - because it is a fairly direct example of Microsoft doing exactly what SCO is accusing IBM-and-us of. However, Jeff Waugh made another *excellent* point: > Ever considered the fact that MS would prefer *not* to ship GPL > code, and would be happier to base their SFU products on "the > real thing"? No, and I feel a proper chook for having overlooked this one. (-: IMESHO, Jeff would be a horror to face across a courtroom floor :-) Microsoft would of course be very pleased to be able to stop shipping GPLed code. It's a major stick in their spokes when it comes to deploring the "pacman-like" nature of the GPL. I don't think that SCO have enough bits and pieces to accomplish this completely, especially since the biggest pieces of SFU have nothing to do with the licence MS has bought, but it would at least give Microsoft a bit of a jump-start on winkling this particular thorn from their side. In a way, I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't just buy SCO/Caldera outright, but perhaps they have in mind waiting until SCO's value is less than that of sand in the Sahara and meantime making friendly overtures until the axe falls. Yes, Michael Still, I think rolling AUUG in would also be a good idea, pursuant to which I've added their "talk" list to this message. I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or LA's. If no Australian Linux or FOSS organisations agree on the content or obviously want to take part, I'll make it a release from CyberKnights Pty Ltd. I would prefer to see a harmonious public chorus from our Linux, FOSS and business interests. So... take 2: === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa Cruz Operation (SCO). The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their suit against IBM. One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate SCO's charges. We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous flame of personal or corporate ambition. It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and political senses. === THAT'S ALL, FOLKS === For the curious, http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2000license.htm says, under "SCO OpenServer Release 5" and "SCO UnixWare 7" in the download table, "No Longer Available". They are simply not listed on the FP 2002 page (http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2002supported.htm). It's interesting that FP support for AIX (and for SUSE Linux on S/390) appears to have been discontinued at IBM's request. Jeremy Malcolm has evidently been too snowed under to pitch in, and I would like to wait for his opinion since it is likely to carry significant professional weight. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From andrae.muys at braintree.com.au Thu May 22 09:25:01 2003 From: andrae.muys at braintree.com.au (Andrae Muys) Date: Thu May 22 09:25:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> Brent Wallis wrote: > Hi, > 2 cents worth of input.. > > Jeff Waugh asked: > >>Who is the audience >>(assuming that it's not the same audience >>who have already read the OSI >>position statement)? > > > I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or does already > make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel Based. Specifically those > already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who were considering Linux. > > I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with POS > terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running > an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. > The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex > for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy > route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux > as the only easy answer. > > That's not correct, but it is what they > suggest. > So you have lost money from this farce? Have you approached the ACCC with a complaint of Misleading and Deceptive Conduct? In fact (while IANAL) even if the complaint was demonstrated to be true, the unsubstantiated threat of legal action almost certainly contravenes multiple fair-trading regulations. If you suffer loss to calumny, you have legal and regulatory recourse. As far as mentioning MS, I would recommend against any reference at all. We gain nothing from it, as the timing of the announcement was too blatent to miss; while any mention will be spun to our detriment by any MS sycophant who picks up on it. Better to focus on the primary objective, discrediting SCO. Andrae Muys -- Andrae Muys Engineer Braintree Communications From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 09:39:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 09:39:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO In-Reply-To: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> References: <3ECC2691.7080508@braintree.com.au> Message-ID: <200305220943.46431.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 09:23, Andrae Muys wrote: > As far as mentioning MS, I would recommend against any reference at > all. We gain nothing from it, as the timing of the announcement was > too blatent to miss; while any mention will be spun to our detriment > by any MS sycophant who picks up on it. Better to focus on the > primary objective, discrediting SCO. I think there is a meta-objective, "encrediting" Linux and the FOSS process. Although it carries some risk, I'm in favour of entangling Microsoft in this one as long as it can be done in such a way that it is difficult to view the mention as just another panicky whinge. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From brent.w at infosynergy.com.au Thu May 22 10:23:02 2003 From: brent.w at infosynergy.com.au (Brent Wallis) Date: Thu May 22 10:23:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: Statement on SCO Message-ID: Hi, Brent Wallis wrote: > Hi, > 2 cents worth of input.. > > Jeff Waugh asked: > >>Who is the audience >>(assuming that it's not the same audience >>who have already read the OSI >>position statement)? > > > I think the target audience should be the SME that either could or > does already make use of, a server Operating System that is Intel > Based. Specifically those already use a "UNIX on Intel" setup, who > were considering Linux. > > I have a specific case of this in the works. A 120 site Retailer with > POS > terminals networked in real time back to a Unixware 7 platform running > an ERP app. A perfect candidate for a smooth RH AS server migration. > The enterprise in question is cluefull, but the facts of this matter are too complex > for them to consider at the moment. They could "switch off" and go the easy > route. SCOs letter/actions for this audience suggest the dropping of Linux > as the only easy answer. > > That's not correct, but it is what they > suggest. > Andrae said: >So you have lost money from this farce? Have you approached the ACCC >with a complaint of Misleading and Deceptive Conduct? Not yet...:) I don't think it will actually come to that. Approaching the ACCC, to me seems a difficult issue because the case is in the US. It's the "delay factor" that matters. The client is relatively high profile and a success in their systems (a given if we get the contract BTW) would enable even more success. Success breeds success....a very old concept. FUD like SCOs (*spit*) is directed at de-stabilising this concept. My concern falls mainly in the slowing down of enquiry and adoption rates. For this client, it could be RH Linux AS this half, next financial half, it "could" be 200 odd Linux desktops. Everything hinges on a smooth and timely install of that first server. From our own point of view, a success with this client is worth more in the "look what Linux can do" arena than the immediate fee revenue. I am sure it isn't just us either, and my concern (believe it or not...)is for the community, not just our pockets. Hell if we loose this, there are always others. If the community is successful, then so are we. If the FOSS community has sh**t flung at it and is perceived as "inadequate" we will suffer as well. It's all about perception and how the community manages it. Rgds BW From jon at ivt.com.au Thu May 22 11:53:01 2003 From: jon at ivt.com.au (Jonathan Oxer) Date: Thu May 22 11:53:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Perhaps it needs to be made more clear right up front what this doc is all about. I know that we don't want to validate SCO's spurious claims by restating them, but maybe it could start something like this (Based on Leon's first couple of paras): On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 10:56, Leon Brooks wrote: > === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure > to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa Cruz > Operation (SCO). > > The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before it > is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and > almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal > systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make > little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. becomes: Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) has recently made accusations of code plagiarism against developers involved with creation of the Linux kernel, which forms the core of the Gnu/Linux Free/Open Source operating system. These accusations appear designed to spread doubt within the business community over the continued viability of Linux as a mainstream operating system, by raising the spectre of a potential backlash by SCO against end users of the system. As a result, [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership pressure to respond to these accusations and reassure the business community that widespread adoption of Linux is not only safe but inevitable. The principle argument behind SCO's accusation appears to be that Linux developers have used SCO source code to patch and improve the Linux kernel. However, the extensive quality control systems... [etc, continued from existing para] Just a thought. Cheers Jonathan From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 22 12:06:01 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 22 12:06:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 01:51:41PM +1000, Jonathan Oxer wrote: > As a result, [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing > membership pressure to respond to these accusations and reassure the > business community that widespread adoption of Linux is not only safe > but inevitable. > > The principle argument behind SCO's accusation appears to be that Linux > developers have used SCO source code to patch and improve the Linux > kernel. However, the extensive quality control systems... [etc, > continued from existing para] This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 22 12:43:02 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 22 12:43:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:05:03PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the > 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to > be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. Nebulous is right. I wonder if there could possibly be any trade secrets left in Unix after all this time and the publication of books such as Bernie Goodheart's. Maybe they can show how copyrighted code has been "borrowed", but I'd be surprised if there's more than a tiny bit that's arguable. Any assessment of damage would depend on a measuring the actual damage to SCO (small) and any exemplary or punitive damages would depend on a finding about intent. That brings the whole thing firmly into the world of politics. The co-incident annoucement of Microsoft licensing Unix from SCO, supposedly for improvement of its Unix Services for Windows product, becomes noteworthy in this context. After all, Microsoft are not neutral when it comes to Linux; and other than in the fevered dreams of Scott McNeally, Windows vs Unix is no longer an interesting battle. I suppose we'll have fun watching it play out in the courts and possibly create FUD in the minds of would-be corporate adopters of Linux... Chris From jon at ivt.com.au Thu May 22 13:12:01 2003 From: jon at ivt.com.au (Jonathan Oxer) Date: Thu May 22 13:12:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> Message-ID: <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 14:39, Chris Maltby wrote: > On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:05:03PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > This is not certain. Various parties within SCO have touted the > > 'stolen source code' line, but the core of the suit seems to > > be about the more nebulous 'misappropriation of trade secrets'. Sure, but my point was primarily that the document should be reasonably self-explanatory to a PHB who doesn't know the background, but sees some headline that "SCO is suing Linux" and comes running to the IT department to make sure they "get rid of all that Linux software that was pirated from SCO". The IT dude should be able to point to the document, which the PHB then reads, breathes a sigh of relief that the allegations are a load of hogwash and he's not in any danger, and goes on about his business. > I suppose we'll have fun watching it play out in the courts > and possibly create FUD in the minds of would-be corporate > adopters of Linux... Problem is it's exactly that FUD that needs to be defused in the minds of the PHBs. Cheers Jonathan From maddog at li.org Thu May 22 13:15:02 2003 From: maddog at li.org (Jon maddog Hall) Date: Thu May 22 13:15:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Maltby of "Thu, 22 May 2003 14:39:38 +1000." <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> Message-ID: <200305220517.h4M5Hahu001976@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I have been watching your conversations. I approve of your movement from one of stark "Let's rip their eyes out" to one of calming the businesses to let them know that "this too will pass". Know that IF this legal battle in the US is won by SCO, it will be on nits and examinations and on legal points of law. By any other measure SCO will be told to go pound sand. Therefore you have to be careful about what you say to the letter of the law. For example (and I am not purposely pointing out one individual's words, just giving an example): > The co-incident annoucement of Microsoft licensing Unix from SCO, > supposedly for improvement of its Unix Services for Windows product, > becomes noteworthy in this context. Microsoft can not license Unix from SCO, because SCO does not own Unix. SCO owns a code stream of licensed and sub-licensed code that came originally from AT&T. The BRAND and Trademarked term Unix is owned by the Open Group, and is used for branding many code streams as Unix compatible. The most that Microsoft could have licensed from SCO is insurance protection from SCO's patents and intellectual property that existed in that code stream, which is probably negligible or non-existent in Microsoft's code. By loosely using the legal terms, you lend some credibility to SCO's claims that the free software community does not (or can not) follow the rules. State your case simply and clearly, without pretending to know what the other person is thinking. Warmest regards, md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog at li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 22 14:38:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 22 14:38:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 8:56:49 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > In a way, I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't just buy SCO/Caldera > outright, Maybe that's not their goal? > but perhaps they have in mind waiting until SCO's value is less than > that of sand in the Sahara and meantime making friendly overtures > until the axe falls. Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied since the lawsuits were announced. > Yes, Michael Still, I think rolling AUUG in would also be a good > idea, pursuant to which I've added their "talk" list to this > message. Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on talk at . I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. > I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those > are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view > which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or LA's. This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. > If no Australian Linux or FOSS organisations agree on the content or > obviously want to take part, I'll make it a release from > CyberKnights Pty Ltd. I would prefer to see a harmonious public > chorus from our Linux, FOSS and business interests. I don't see why CyberKnights shouldn't make a statement too. > === PHRRRK, PHRRRK, IS THIS THING ON...? === > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > Cruz Operation (SCO). I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. > The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass before > it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively modify and > almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The internal > systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it would make > little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into the other. The second point is much more plausible than the first. Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to convince your audience. And that takes too long. > The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many > substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to > the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their > evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their > suit against IBM. > > One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of > processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on > 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many > people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux > performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on significant numbers of CPUs. Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case which some people would believe. > SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the > terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the > Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if > the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. We don't know that. They don't say how long. They don't say that the code which IBM supposedly introduced was actually in their distro. It might just have been in the development kernels. Since they don't say what it was, it's difficult to counter. > Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to > "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but > while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed software > itself for political reasons, their move does not validate SCO's > charges. This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised > more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL > than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous flame > of personal or corporate ambition. > > It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of > virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and > political senses. Wearing my devil's advocate horns, this somehow doesn't ring true. I'm not sure why, but I suspect that it won't be enough to counter SCO's FUD. You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say--I hope you'll agree with the points I made--but I haven't said very much myself. There's a good reason for that, and it's also the reason why AUUG hasn't made a stand on the subject: I'm still trying to understand the implications. But we need to be very careful about what we do say. Of one thing I am certain: this lawsuit *does* have the potential to do serious damage to Linux. Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. I do have a web page on the subject, at http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Note that these are my personal opinions and have no relationship to any official AUUG standpoint. Discussion welcome. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030522/9b61edb5/attachment-0001.pgp From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 15:31:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 15:31:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied > since the lawsuits were announced. Only because the investors think they might get a substantial windfall, which IRL is extremely unlikely. > Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on > talk at . I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. True, but I've seen messages from you and Maddog, which is a roaring start. (-: >> I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those >> are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view >> which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or >> LA's. > This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and > Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) > statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD > is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. I guess we should cover some ground for them, then. (-: > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. True, they are now "The SCO Group" according to their website, having briefly been Caldera since their S-C-O days. >> The extensive quality control systems which a patch must pass >> before it is accepted into the main Linux kernel would massively >> modify and almost certainly reject any incoming SCO UNIX code. The >> internal systems of SCO UNIX and Linux are quite different, so it >> would make little sense to try grafting code from one kernel into >> the other. > The second point is much more plausible than the first. Agree. > Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to at least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to start. > Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to > convince your audience. And that takes too long. Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how much time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. I think this will be as much as we can achieve without labouring the point, and I think we need to ping this concept occasionally anyway, since many PHBs assume no quality control and it's something that Microsoft pumps as often as it can. After the flood, no raindrop will admit responsibility. (-: >> The legal complaint filed by SCO against IBM contains many >> substantial errors of fact which leads [assorted organisations] to >> the conclusion that SCO have made a serious mistake in their >> evaluation of the situation, and that they should withdraw their >> suit against IBM. >> One error of fact centres on using Linux with large arrays of >> processors. The collaboration which led to Linux running on >> 64-to-512 processor systems such as SGI's Altix 3000 involved many >> people and companies - not just IBM - and resulted in Linux >> performance which dramatically outclasses SCO UNIX. > I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on > significant numbers of CPUs. They only claim 32 peak. > Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and > Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do > with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could > say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code > (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, > recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just > before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case > which some people would believe. That's precisely what SCO have said. Do you think we need to explicitly touch on input from SGI and others at this point? >> SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the >> terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the >> Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if >> the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. > We don't know that. They don't say how long. True. So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the Linux kernel". That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. >> Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to >> "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but >> while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed >> software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate >> SCO's charges. > This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. Agree. > By all accounts > Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a > license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, > they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being confusing? At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint that the description may not be accurate? >> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their >> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. > The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? Yes. Actions vs words. >> Linux's future is bright and certain, underwritten and stabilised >> more by the political and technical freedoms embodied in the GPL >> than by the fickle to and fro of shareholders or the dangerous >> flame of personal or corporate ambition. >> It is quite safe to continue using Linux. This is true in terms of >> virus immunity and general reliability as well as in the legal and >> political senses. > Wearing my devil's advocate horns, this somehow doesn't ring true. > I'm not sure why, but I suspect that it won't be enough to counter > SCO's FUD. That's fine - as long as what we wind up with _is_ if not enough to counter, then enough to keep poor conclusions from being jumped at. > You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: > I hope you'll agree with the points I made Some of them. (-: > but I haven't said very much myself. > There's a good reason for that, and it's also the reason why AUUG > hasn't made a stand on the subject: I'm still trying to understand > the implications. But we need to be very careful about what we do > say. Of one thing I am certain: this lawsuit *does* have the > potential to do serious damage to Linux. Look at the effect on BSD > of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD > weren't even involved in that lawsuit. Agree. > I do have a web page on the subject, at > http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Note that these are my personal > opinions and have no relationship to any official AUUG standpoint. Ta! Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 22 15:36:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 22 15:36:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- /* * Sorry about the rampant cross-post, just felt it was important to clear up * some points in Greg's post. */ On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > > Cruz Operation (SCO). > > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. SCO who were the Santa Cruz Operation are now Tarantella, they sold their OS division to Caldera in 2001 and then changed the name. http://www.tarantella.com/about/history.html Caldera became The SCO Group in 2002, and there doesn't appear to be any mention of "Santa Cruz Operation" any more. They've actually just changed name again, on the 16th May the shareholders approved renaming the company "The SCO Group, Inc." instead of just "The SCO Group". http://www.sco.com/company/history.html > I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on > significant numbers of CPUs. You also need to be very clear about whether you are talking about SCO Unix or Unixware. The former is SCO's, the latter is the renamed System V Release 4 from USG that Novell had before they sold it to Caldera (and AT&T had before them). This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). > Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and > Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do > with the SCO code base. Don't get into the trap of confusing Unixware and SCO Unix! > This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts > Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a > license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, > they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. Microsoft has had copyright messages in System V since around 1987, because of the original SCO's work on Xenix which MS released in 1980 (remember that SCO did the work under subcontract for MS, and the fall out from this is why SCO took MS to the European Commission in the late 1990's. See the webpage at: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/tale.shtml for more). > > We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > > software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. > > The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for SCO Unix, Unixware or both. > Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years ago. > FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPsx9oI1yjaOTJg85AQFAkQgAoPhjn2ysKinGyg1uC4zj8f2WlLwAOO+8 RRMKRnw7eSk6wDO9ZIsOCxwfcX4gddAPCBYNDNHveiQy+UnIORYkCvm0/zDGgUT2 hm0rZSvDThklX5MXlk1lCcpaUHrQT9Gofuc29CA1pm8bSxzGpe90C3C97K2GBKEU UvH6nLq0IQZ8dLuvP8FJbllIC3C6Qtr8eJacpeaTOHQa0eMB5jGiHZPNOXVM7Rvb HzwuvAtRBb5jf2r2IUU6wIK92gMfAUZ6/h/lbLOq79Zik1FuxLz4Y7ZahXLYCvGD EEDyhLzFDeJc1nwdM82C0oknd1/hDusEXilr8i/HmjXB/PN8RmLXiQ== =XLnH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 22 16:00:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 22 16:00:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305221605.00185.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 15:34, Chris Samuel wrote: > * Sorry about the rampant cross-post Necessary, for a few days, methinks. >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of >>> their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. >> The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the > issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for > SCO Unix, Unixware or both. http://www.rtr.com/fpsupport/fp2000license.htm says "SCO OpenServer Release 5" on one entry and "SCO UnixWare 7" on another. The FP2002 pages don't even mention them. IMESHO it doesn't matter exactly which family they're from - although it would help if there were direct overlap - the key issue is that Microsoft reeled in their support for SCO products. Detailed clarification is probably overload for a press release unless it's critical to understanding a central issue. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 22 16:37:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 22 16:37:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >> significant numbers of CPUs. > > You also need to be very clear about whether you are talking about SCO Unix or > Unixware. The former is SCO's, the latter is the renamed System V Release 4 > from USG that Novell had before they sold it to Caldera (and AT&T had before > them). > > This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. After reading the complaint, I'm not sure what this case is about. But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software here. > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went > System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD > kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. > (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). It took Sun approximately until SunOS 2.5 to get reasonable SMP support. They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, also known as UnixWare). >> Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and Solaris do, but you can be >> pretty sure that that has nothing to do with the SCO code base. > > Don't get into the trap of confusing Unixware and SCO Unix! Not a hope. I was present at the launch of UnixWare (of which I also have a complete software set), and made a lot of money out of it. I sold Univel 10,000 CDs of free software (the software was free, the CDs weren't), and they only sold a fraction of that number of UnixWare licenses worldwide in the first year. >> This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. By all accounts >> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > > Microsoft has had copyright messages in System V since around 1987, Yes, this was System V.3.2, which merged XENIX and (I think) SunOS 4 functionality into System V. Earlier versions weren't very compatible with XENIX. > because of the original SCO's work on Xenix which MS released in > 1980 (remember that SCO did the work under subcontract for MS, and > the fall out from this is why SCO took MS to the European Commission > in the late 1990's. See the webpage at: > > http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/tale.shtml > > for more). Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the background. Of course, some of the stuff is contradictory: Looking further back to 1980, we find Microsoft developing a commercial version of Unix called Xenix under license from AT&T. Actually, Microsoft didn't develop Xenix, though they did obtain a license from AT&T to do so -- and subcontracted the actual coding to SCO. By the time SCO acquired it, the archaic Xenix code had more than outlived its technical usefulness. One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users out there even today. >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their >>> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. >> >> The point? That even Microsoft doesn't believe in SCO's viability? > > Warning - SCO Unix is irrelevant at this point, Unixware is the > issue. It needs clarification about whether MS dropped support for > SCO Unix, Unixware or both. It's a valid distinction, but I don't know how important it is. >> Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years >> ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. > > FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. Of course they did. I was there in the middle of it. The NetBSD project was founded on 21 March 1983. The FreeBSD project was founded on 19 June 1983 (and we're having a party at my place round then; watch this space). The initial complaint was filed on 20 April 1992, before 386/BSD had spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD, but it carried on until early 1994. > There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk > McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Yes, it's correct. To quote: Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to be freely redistributed. Thanks for the info. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030522/f00b2240/attachment-0001.pgp From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 22 16:54:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 22 16:54:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 15:35:38 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Take a look at their stock prices. The stock has really rallied >> since the lawsuits were announced. > > Only because the investors think they might get a substantial > windfall, which IRL is extremely unlikely. I don't disagree, but it's possible that this was intended. >> Note that it's a tossup as to whether the correct people are on >> talk at . I don't know how many of our Board of Directors are. > > True, but I've seen messages from you and Maddog, which is a roaring > start. (-: I think Maddog's on the Linux Australia list, not talk at auug.org.au. >>> I value AUUG not so much for their press contacts (although those >>> are good) as because they have a set of valuable points of view >>> which are centred around different concerns to either SLPWA or >>> LA's. >> >> This is a good point. It might be a good enough reason for AUUG and >> Linux Australia to put out similar (but not contradictory) >> statements. It would certainly increase press coverage. The AUUG BoD >> is meeting on Saturday, and this item is on our agenda. > > I guess we should cover some ground for them, then. (-: Sure, go for it. >> Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality control. > > ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to at > least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to start. That's a valid intention, but is now the time? It's not relevant to the complaint, and it will tend to confuse people. I'd personally be more inclined to drop it. >> Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to >> convince your audience. And that takes too long. > > Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following > statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how much > time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. It might be worth making a core statement (can I say that without sounding like a policitian?), and maybe making some PS statements at the end. The question of QC should be a PS. > I think this will be as much as we can achieve without labouring the > point, and I think we need to ping this concept occasionally anyway, > since many PHBs assume no quality control and it's something that > Microsoft pumps as often as it can. After the flood, no raindrop > will admit responsibility. (-: Agreed, it's worth mentioning at some point. >> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >> significant numbers of CPUs. > > They only claim 32 peak. I'd like to see anywhere where they run on more than 4. They're Intel based, remember? >> Sure, various versions of AIX, IRIX and >> Solaris do, but you can be pretty sure that that has nothing to do >> with the SCO code base. But this is where it gets tricky: SCO could >> say, for example, that the AIX development is based on SCO's code >> (not true AFAICT), and that IBM's know-how (not necessarily code, >> recall?) makes Linux better. Turn that the right way, and just >> before you strangle the last grain of truth, you might make a case >> which some people would believe. > > That's precisely what SCO have said. Do you think we need to explicitly > touch on input from SGI and others at this point? I started writing something about SMP support, with particular reference to IBM, in my SCO page (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). I didn't say anything that isn't public knowledge (for example, Anton Blanchard's 7 second kernel compile using 24 of 32 CPUs, based on a paper presented at AUUG 2002). I know that Anton and the people he works with have had absolutely no exposure to AIX code. Even if they had, the best they could have done with it is to extract the ideas and rewrite it. That's not illegal, as you point out. Nevertheless, I then threw it out again because I was concerned that people could misinterpret it. >>> SCO have freely published the source code in question (under the >>> terms of the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) which protects the >>> Linux kernel) for some time after filing the complaint, so even if >>> the complaint once had any merit, it no longer does. > >> We don't know that. They don't say how long. > > True. So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the > Linux kernel". Yes, but that nullifies the effect of the statement. > That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need > said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. I think the fact that they've chopped their own kernel makes it pretty clear that they weren't making any money out of it. I think even the PHBs will appreciate that. Assuming that they have identified which parts of the kernel are contaminated, they could simply have reverted to an earlier, non-contaminated version. But I heard as long ago as last September that Caldera hadn't been making any money with Linux, which is why they changed their name back to SCO. > Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. The stuff they're complaining about could easily have been 2.5. >>> Microsoft have recently purchased a UNIX licence from SCO to >>> "improve the Unix compatibility of [...] Services For Unix", but >>> while Microsoft would evidently like to stop shipping GPLed >>> software itself for political reasons, their move does not validate >>> SCO's charges. > >> This purchase of a UNIX license is really confusing. > > Agree. > >> By all accounts >> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. > > Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being confusing? > At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint that the > description may not be accurate? I'd be inclined to say pretty much what I just have. That the report is confusing and that the original intention may have been something completely different. There are various rights you can buy to source code. At one point I thought this meant that Microsoft had bought the rights to the UNIX code base from SCO, leaving SCO without those rights. I no longer think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure that a couple of layers of reporters have muddied the waters. >> You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say > > Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: I'd rather have made some positive suggestions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030522/473db0d2/attachment-0001.pgp From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 22 17:02:01 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 22 17:02:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> > > There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk > > McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:05:50PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Yes, it's correct. To quote: > > Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by > Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would > rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of > 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had > dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further > prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points > were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January > 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 > that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes > were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add > USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to > be freely redistributed. > > Thanks for the info. There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on to add something like): One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A project was launched to identify the contributors of those borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in the System V source. Chris From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Fri May 23 07:58:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 23 07:58:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> Message-ID: <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 19:01:24 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: >>> There's a nice piece on the BSD history and the lawsuit in Kirk >>> McKusick's BSD chapter of the O'Reilly OpenSources book at: >>> >>> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html > > On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:05:50PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Yes, it's correct. To quote: >> >> Soon after the filing in state court, USL was bought from AT&T by >> Novell. The CEO of Novell, Ray Noorda, stated publicly that he would >> rather compete in the marketplace than in court. By the summer of >> 1993, settlement talks had started. Unfortunately, the two sides had >> dug in so deep that the talks proceed slowly. With some further >> prodding by Ray Noorda on the USL side, many of the sticking points >> were removed and a settlement was finally reached in January >> 1994. The result was that three files were removed from the 18,000 >> that made up Networking Release 2, and a number of minor changes >> were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add >> USL copyrights to about 70 files, although those files continued to >> be freely redistributed. >> >> Thanks for the info. > > There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on > to add something like): > > One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to > have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and > so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source > code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A > project was launched to identify the contributors of those > borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in > the System V source. Are you sure of this? I did some work on syslogd (a BSD program) for a nameless System V vendor a couple of years after the lawsuit was settled, and there was no BSD license in the source. I added one, and it was removed again. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030523/ba983350/attachment-0001.pgp From conz at cyber.com.au Fri May 23 08:01:23 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Fri May 23 08:01:23 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:34:56PM +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > /* > * Sorry about the rampant cross-post, just felt it was important to clear up > * some points in Greg's post. > */ > > On Thursday 22 May 2003 4:37 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > [Assorted organisations] are coming under increasing membership > > > pressure to respond to accusations of code plagiarism from the Santa > > > Cruz Operation (SCO). > > > > I don't think that SCO is the Santa Cruz Operation any more. > > SCO who were the Santa Cruz Operation are now Tarantella, they sold their OS > division to Caldera in 2001 and then changed the name. > > http://www.tarantella.com/about/history.html > A few newish pieces which many have escaped the attention of memebers of this forum, and just to add flavour to discussions thus far :-) - - - - http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/05/22/1326239&mode=thread&tid=10 What is Microsoft really up to by licensing Unix from SCO for between 10 to 30 million dollars? I think the answer's quite simple: they want to hurt Linux. Anything that damages Linux's reputation, which lending support to SCO's Unix intellectual property claims does, is to Microsoft's advantage. Mary Jo Foley, top reporter of Microsoft Watch agrees with me. She tells me, "This is just Microsoft making sure the Linux waters get muddier They are doing this to hurt Linux and keep customers off balance. Eric Raymond, president of the Open Source Initative agrees and adds "Any money they (Microsoft) give SCO helps SCO hurt Linux. I think it's that simple." Dan Kusnetzky, IDC vice president for system software research, also believes that Microsoft winning can be the only sure result from SCO's legal maneuvering. But, he also thinks that whether SCO wins, loses, or draws, Microsoft will get blamed for SCO's actions. He's right. People are already accusing Microsoft of bankrolling SCO's attacks on IBM and Linux. ... Indeed, as Perens told me the other day, in addition to all the points that has already been made about SCO's weak case, SCO made most 16-bit Unix and 32V Unix source code freely available. To be precise, on January 23, 2002, Caldera wrote , "Caldera International, Inc. hereby grants a fee free license that includes the rights use, modify and distribute this named source code, including creating derived binary products created from the source code." Although not mentioned by name, the letter seems to me to put these operating systems under the BSD license .While System III and System V code are specifically not included, it certainly makes SCO's case even murkier. SCO has since taken down its own 'Ancient Unix' source code site, but the code and the letter remain available at many mirror sites . Given all this, I think Microsoft has done all they're going to do with SCO. They've helped spread more FUD for a minimal investment. To try more could only entangle them in further legal problems. No, SCO alone is responsible for our current Unix/Linux situation and alone SCO will have to face its day in court. - - - - http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-1007672.html - SCO says IBM's decision to contribute elements of AIX, its own Unix-based operating system, to the open-source community was unlawful. "IBM is obligated not to open source AIX because it contains SCO's confidential and proprietary Unix operating system and, more importantly, the code that is essential for running mission critical applications," the complaint says. - Without stating it outright, SCO implies that portions of the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries have been incorporated into Linux. "The mathematical probability of a customer being able to re-create the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries without unauthorized access to or use of the source code of the SCO OpenServer Shared Libraries is nil," SCO says. - SCO alleges that IBM's Linux development efforts "misappropriated SCO's trade secrets" that Big Blue had acquired by licensing Unix from the SCO Group, which owns the intellectual property rights to the original Unix code created at AT&T's Unix Systems Laboratories. Additional confidential collaboration occurred, SCO alleges, when the two companies worked together on a plan called Project Monterey to build a new 64-bit Unix operating system for computers with Intel processors. When the onetime partners went their separate ways, in May 2001, IBM illegally "chose to use and appropriate for its own business the proprietary information obtained from SCO," SCO charges. - SCO says IBM's decision to spend a billion dollars on Linux development was the single most important factor in transforming Linux from a hobbyist platform into one that businesses would embrace. That could not have happened "without the misappropriation of Unix code, methods or concepts to achieve such performance," SCO says. Other allegations include unfair competition, breach of contract and tortious interference with contract. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From chris at sw.oz.au Fri May 23 08:53:01 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Fri May 23 08:53:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030522090124.GR2401@aurema.com> <20030522235624.GS68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030523005017.GS2401@aurema.com> > On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 19:01:24 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: >> There's a missing piece to this story (I don't know if Kirk goes on >> to add something like): >> >> One of the more unexpected outcomes was that USL was found to >> have breached the rights of the authors of the BSD code and >> so they were obliged to add attributions to System V source >> code for all the "borrowings" it made from various BSDs. A >> project was launched to identify the contributors of those >> borrowings so that the correct attributions could be made in >> the System V source. On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 09:26:24AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Are you sure of this? I did some work on syslogd (a BSD program) for > a nameless System V vendor a couple of years after the lawsuit was > settled, and there was no BSD license in the source. I added one, and > it was removed again. Well, it may only be kernel contributions that ended up being attributed. Mine was for adding inode caching and hashed lookup in edition 6 days, which was circulated by BSD and included into edition 7... There was a reference to it as recently as 1998 in UnixWare, but not a specific copyright notice. Chris From enno at doc.metva.com.au Fri May 23 10:44:01 2003 From: enno at doc.metva.com.au (Enno Davids) Date: Fri May 23 10:44:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Hey guys, I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative thing I guess...) Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) Enno. (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 23 10:54:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 23 10:54:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305231059.25360.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 22 May 2003 16:53, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> Recall that SCO is saying exactly the opposite about quality >>> control. >> ...and have been doing so for about 4 years now. I think we need to >> at least contradict this, and now is as good a time as any to >> start. > That's a valid intention, but is now the time? It's not relevant to > the complaint I think it led directly to the complaint. If you read said complaint, they evidently don't believe that Linux is as good as SCO UNIX, let alone better than it. Since Linux can apparently beat SCO UNIX on every point, the argument that it's copying SCO UNIX ("chasing tail-lights") to do this is considerably weakened. Saying all of this this in a dozen words or less might be too hard. >>> Before you can say that Linux QC is better than SCO, you need to >>> convince your audience. And that takes too long. >> Yes and no. Just stating it will have some effect, the following >> statement about big systems adds credibility, and no matter how >> much time is spent, some will remain completely unconvinced. > It might be worth making a core statement (can I say that without > sounding like a policitian?), and maybe making some PS statements at > the end. The question of QC should be a PS. Again yes and no. If SCO didn't firmly believe that Linux's QC sucked, they wouldn't be doing this. OTOH, Sontag also stated that the offending code was not in the kernel.org sources so that QC argument may be moot. >>> I think we need to look at where, if at all, SCO UNIX runs on >>> significant numbers of CPUs. >> They only claim 32 peak. > I'd like to see anywhere where they run on more than 4. They're > Intel based, remember? ...and IRL 99% or more of their installs would be single-CPUs. Not many dual-Athlon cash registers around. > I started writing something about SMP support, with particular > reference to IBM, in my SCO page > (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). I didn't say anything that > isn't public knowledge (for example, Anton Blanchard's 7 second > kernel compile using 24 of 32 CPUs, based on a paper presented at > AUUG 2002). I know that Anton and the people he works with have had > absolutely no exposure to AIX code. Even if they had, the best they > could have done with it is to extract the ideas and rewrite it. > That's not illegal, as you point out. > Nevertheless, I then threw it out again because I was concerned that > people could misinterpret it. Touching on it carefully could be valuable, to make the point that SMP development did come from other than IBM. >> So instead of saying "in question" it should read "to the >> Linux kernel". > Yes, but that nullifies the effect of the statement. Not really. It might annoy the odd careful reader, but the rest wouldn't even think about it. Again OTOH, Sontag's statement might require of us a different wording. >> That and them chopping their own distro should say all that we need >> said without leaving room for carping if they want to get picky. > I heard as long ago as last September that Caldera hadn't been making > any money with Linux, which is why they changed their name back to > SCO. I think they got too greedy and priced themselves out of the market. In aviation terms, the price became too steep so they stalled. That per-seat idea wouldn't have been popular. >> Their distro did ship with a 2.4 kernel while it was still Caldera. > The stuff they're complaining about could easily have been 2.5. IIRC, they also shipped (with source) a "technical demonstration" edition with an early 2.5 kernel on it. >>> By all accounts >>> Microsoft has various UNIX source code, so they must have had a >>> license. After all, when SCO was effectively a part of Microsoft, >>> they wrote or at least maintained XENIX. >> Agree. Should we change what we say as a result of it being >> confusing? At least put rabbit ears around "a UNIX licence" to hint >> that the description may not be accurate? > I'd be inclined to say pretty much what I just have. That the report > is confusing and that the original intention may have been something > completely different. There are various rights you can buy to source > code. At one point I thought this meant that Microsoft had bought > the rights to the UNIX code base from SCO, leaving SCO without those > rights. I no longer think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure that > a couple of layers of reporters have muddied the waters. Agree. >>> You'll note that I've criticized what you have to say >> Hoorah! I would that more could be bothered! (-: > I'd rather have made some positive suggestions. You did. Mission accomplished. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 23 11:16:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 23 11:16:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:35 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > This case is about Unixware, not SCO Unix. > > After reading the complaint, I'm not sure what this case is about. My undertstanding from the court document, is that IBM mis-used the source code from their UNIX license (originally from AT&T) and from Project Monterey. It seems to boil down to: the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of SCO'S UNIX source code and libraries, and unauthorized misuse of UNIX methods, concepts, and know-how from paragraph 96 of the complaint. SCO's case isn't helped by the fact that they explicitly mention that IBM's OmniPrint services (para. 91 & 92) and JFS (para 92) - both of which (IBM says) were ported to Linux from the OS/2 codebase, not the AIX codebase. Mind you, they also quote Robert LeBlanc saying "We're willing to open source any part of AIX that the Linux community considers valuable. We have open-sourced the journal filesystem, print driver for the Omniprint." which seems to contradict what IBM say about the source of JFS & OmniPrint. But seeing as SCO seem quite happy to do things like put the words of someone else into RMS's mouth on their website then I'm not certain we can trust this quote either. > But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, > is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software > here. I had the misfortune to have it as one of the over a dozen UNIX variants on a compiler development network I was jointly managing in 1994. It was almost (but not quite) the worst out of all of them. It was the only one that didn't implement symbolic links for a start. :-( As an aside the worst was a Parsys transputer system running a Unix OS called, IIRC, Idris - the shutdown, halt and reboot commands didn't work so our MO for shutting it down was to do a shell script that continually called /bin/sync and flip the power off. We didn't turn it on very often at all. > > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went > > System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD > > kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V > > So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given > that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for > SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. This was told to me by either someone from Sun or a Sun reseller back around 94 or 95 as justification for why Sun went System 5 for Solaris. It wasn't popular where I was and so I'd been asked to find out why they'd done it. Here's an interesting (though not MP related) tidbit from version 1.74 of the Solaris 2.x FAQ by Casper Dik : SVR4.0, in turn, was developed jointly by AT&T and Sun while Sun was developing 4.1.0, which is why things like RFS, STREAMS, shared memory, etc., are in SunOS 4.1.x, and why things like vnodes, NFS and XView are in SVR4.0. (RFS, by the way, was dropped effective Solaris 2.3). > > (although Sun rewrote a lot the the SVR4 kernel). > > It took Sun approximately until SunOS 2.5 to get reasonable SMP > support. IMHO it took them to 2.5 before it was a reasonable OS. :-) > They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, > the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, > also known as UnixWare). OK - now I'm confused! I thought that the MP version was SVR4.2 MP ? [...] > One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their > product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. > It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes > still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of > course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's > still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, > had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users > out there even today. I'm afraid I was too badly traumatised by my experience with SCO in 94,95 to ever consider it anything like a reasonable OS. Even the HP-SUX 7 boxes we had weren't that bad. [...] > >> Look at the effect on BSD of the AT&T vs. BSDI lawsuit 10 years > >> ago. FreeBSD and NetBSD weren't even involved in that lawsuit. > > > > FreeBSD and NetBSD didn't even exist at that time. > > Of course they did. I was there in the middle of it. Mea culpa! According to McKusick the initial injunction against UCB and BSDI was heard in December 1992, and UCB counter-sued the week after (presumably still December 1992). The first NetBSD release was about 4 months after, whilst the case was still going. Sorry about my mistake. > The NetBSD project was founded on 21 March 1983. The FreeBSD project was > founded on 19 June 1983 (and we're having a party at my place round then; > watch this space). I presume the 83 is a typo for 93. :-) > The initial complaint was filed on 20 April 1992, > before 386/BSD had spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD, but it carried on until > early 1994. OK - understood. Thanks for that. [...] > Thanks for the info. Not a problem, thanks for the corrections! cheers, Chris, proud owner of a "Free the Berkeley 4.4" t-shirt (Novell version, didn't get in early enough for a Death Star one) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPs2SXY1yjaOTJg85AQE6Iwf7B7OWkn39HdeX3Idvxe9uRmp6YMF46K+H TfZ3s5G5uEIRRnp7bGUfPURojv/5pdzKmtvS+kcammrLEfNDSL++QlzcgsAu1i8b axs8aLHnKk/pqlP1Qk2LpanW7c9Jlp6YaGNsVGwfhfdvCbTUpfWlTWFAdiR0ph93 qQZyfUeutOhuaZrFS3839PfLiivTFrOiQ+kwSabiQyjdmrnpvXrPCGp23KE50wz5 CDp2DGyJun6YCBjlokIzuUmmV02hBowhxn8hWCwDzqa2+xMjly6hqKGgL/PgWz7C Btcj00iG4+TWvSMGh5iACatDbBZzLhG2L2Dp7/Nh8euY7mvRcde/4Q== =wBu4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Fri May 23 11:19:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Fri May 23 11:19:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG - Grog's thread In-Reply-To: <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221535.38167.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522085317.GR68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305231318.49497.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:53 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I started writing something about SMP support, with particular > reference to IBM, in my SCO page (http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html). Personally I would point out that the people who bought the first dual CPU system for Alan Cox to develop SMP on were Caldera, now SCO. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPs2TGI1yjaOTJg85AQFDuAf/dvGA/DNcJowXuDOzvXy4M8u56Jwtk1rE AOdMmAV9WdGDQ5+MIYOxw5tIAs4u2y1RxpI/kkf6JpUbZvVT6JLhs6ap9z4C1kIx JwFQf0goByeKNWUWYJ8I/mll+Lw20IBlDgoKXB+IO6CijPIfcrsZ55eOC/2Qnbey LbvRt4D1F0HIK41HEFjUALh2CPLnMTe1zEh5jscnOKr1Jvrr/zTdvHvDkICsrymW Ac6MVVqqEAuvI1BUwHTOLbzRK1pvfyihqW5RUJV/maTOVGc2CtgPowuFXqiJqWvl CoZnHSVo+qKvlMMNA9GS2ekgqAl6l41riZXrXabJsAMQJvVhBQae3Q== =fRJM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Fri May 23 11:33:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 23 11:33:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305231315.42530.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030523033156.GJ80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 23 May 2003 at 13:15:41 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Thursday 22 May 2003 6:35 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 22 May 2003 at 17:34:56 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > My undertstanding from the court document, is that IBM mis-used the source > code from their UNIX license (originally from AT&T) and from Project > Monterey. It seems to boil down to: > > the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of SCO'S UNIX > source code and libraries, and unauthorized misuse of UNIX methods, > concepts, and know-how > > from paragraph 96 of the complaint. > > SCO's case isn't helped by the fact that they explicitly mention that IBM's > OmniPrint services (para. 91 & 92) and JFS (para 92) - both of which (IBM > says) were ported to Linux from the OS/2 codebase, not the AIX > codebase. Indeed. > Mind you, they also quote Robert LeBlanc saying "We're willing to > open source any part of AIX that the Linux community considers > valuable. We have open-sourced the journal filesystem, print driver > for the Omniprint." which seems to contradict what IBM say about the > source of JFS & OmniPrint. Yes. IBM's right, of course. The JFS that IBM released was internally known as JFS 2; it's a greatly improved version of the AIX JFS ("JFS 1"). While at IBM, I wrote a JFS 1 file system for Linux. It's clear from what little I saw of it that JFS 1 was derived from FFS (BSD). Despite the fact that it wasn't original UNIX source code, and despite the fact that I was an IBM employee, I was not allowed to see the AIX code. If I had been allowed, I wouldn't have dreamed of copying it: I just wanted to understand how it worked. For example, a JFS 1 inode only has space for on indirect block pointer. It turns out that if the file is 16 MB in size or less, it points to a single indirect block; if the size is greater, it points to the double indirect block. That would have been so much easier to understand if I had been allowed to see the source. >> But yes, the old SCO UNIX, now called Open Deathtrap or Open Server, >> is based on System V.3.2. I have a complete set of the ODT software >> here. > > I had the misfortune to have it as one of the over a dozen UNIX variants on a > compiler development network I was jointly managing in 1994. It was almost > (but not quite) the worst out of all of them. It was the only one that didn't > implement symbolic links for a start. :-( That was more common earlier on. Symbolic links were one of the things that System V.4 imported from BSD with UFS. >> They did it in a completely different way from System V.4.2, >> the SMP version of System V (not to be confused with System V.4.2, >> also known as UnixWare). > > OK - now I'm confused! I thought that the MP version was SVR4.2 MP ? Why should you be left out? :-) But you could be right. I've heard people claim that SVR4.2 was the multiprocessor version of SVR4, and others say that it was the desktop version. It's possible that neither of them knew the complete functionality. >> One of the problems SCO (the old one) had was that, although their >> product was archaic and not real UNIX, it was relatively easy to use. >> It didn't have as many of the sharp edges that many commercial UNIXes >> still have (not counting compatibility problems with System V, of >> course). That's why OpenDesktop was based on XENIX, and why it's >> still a System V.3.2 base. Even UnixWare, a much more modern system, >> had difficulties keeping up. There are a number of loyal SCO users >> out there even today. > > I'm afraid I was too badly traumatised by my experience with SCO in 94,95 to > ever consider it anything like a reasonable OS. Even the HP-SUX 7 boxes we > had weren't that bad. By then the stuff was *completely* out of date. I used SVR[23] in the late 80s and early 90s, and by comparison XENIX had some nice features. It was still a pig to install. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030523/fbb8e006/attachment-0001.pgp From lui at fgcint.com Fri May 23 12:39:02 2003 From: lui at fgcint.com (Luigi Cantoni) Date: Fri May 23 12:39:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Message-ID: <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> This certainly has been a great history lession. I agree with Enno just a general statement of support and that people (organisations) should have nothing to fear. Maybe something like because it is open and all code can be seen then anyone can easily point to the exact piece and say it is mine. Until that is done and proven there is no problem. I assume that no one has actually said these 100's of lines of code right here are the ones copied from what xxx had. Luigi Cantoni On Fri, 2003-05-23 at 10:42, Enno Davids wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns > about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, > it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and > say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details > or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) > > Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever > worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources > whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its > extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer > community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative > thing I guess...) > > Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue > statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that > it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a > generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual > property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) > > > Enno. > > > (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things > that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their > large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits > disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this > case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot > of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk mailing list > Talk at auug.org.au > http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Luigi Cantoni From adam at saki.com.au Fri May 23 12:51:02 2003 From: adam at saki.com.au (Adam Donnison) Date: Fri May 23 12:51:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> Message-ID: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> I too have been watching from afar (as it were). I'm wondering who the audience of any statement would be? If it were to go to the general public then it might be worth condensing the comments from Eric Raymonds paper which essentially would boil down to a press release something like: SCO resorts to dirty tricks to lessen Linux SCO, in what they are hoping will be characterised as a David and Goliath contest, have started procedings against software giant IBM in an attempt to gain lost ground to the now well entrenched Linux operating system. In what can only be characterised as a farago of mistruths, misdirections and outright fabrications, SCO is attempting to claim that IBM, by its multi-billion dollar investment in the free operating system Linux has infringed SCO's IP rights. (short description of what Linux is, what the stakes are, what the actual claim is). The idea is to try and point out that SCO has alterior motives, and is not the lilly-white injured party it tries to portray. It has to be done in short sentences, and without too much detail, in order to get it into the space requirements of most publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than 400 lines, forget it. Just my 2c worth. Adam Enno Davids wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've been watching this debate with interest and while I have no concerns > about any of our groups expressing support or taking other advocacy roles, > it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and > say that the allegations are untrue. (Especially absent any real details > or concrete examples of where code 're-use' is alleged to have occurred.) > > Its especially hard to for us to credibly suggest that no one who ever > worked on Linux ever had access to or made reference to the UNIX sources > whilst they were making some improvement to the Linux kernel. Its > extraordinarily unlikely, given the general attitudes of the Linux developer > community, but we can't prove it never happened. (The old proving a negative > thing I guess...) > > Given this I would have thought that the best we could do is to issue > statements of support, note that the processes and opinions were such that > it is unlikely that any such breaches occurred and perhaps express a > generic view that we don't condone the unauthorised use of the intellectual > property. (aka. sieze the moral high ground...) > > > Enno. > > > (It also seems to me that IBM in particular are masters at finding things > that people who sue them are doing that infringe on some portion of their > large patent portfolio and quite comfortable at using this to make law suits > disappear in out of court cross-licensing 'partnerships'... I expect this > case to go away with no other effect than Caldera/SCO having flushed a lot > of money down that toilet labelled legal expenses.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk mailing list > Talk at auug.org.au > http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Adam Donnison email: adam at saki.com.au Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd. 93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512 THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098 From dlloyd at microbits.com.au Fri May 23 12:58:01 2003 From: dlloyd at microbits.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 23 12:58:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523142701.39d9443b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Adam, > publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means > go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than > 400 lines, forget it. For those who get excited writing thesis, though, there's no harm in having a umpteen-thousand word white paper to refer the interested to... DSL - -- Microbits Linux Technician 08 8362 9220 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+zaodNBhAwwyvg/kRAtGpAKCIFa4ekYiATQNCmOG8tY5LBC/ldACdGb5S I8+HL4d+dMAoM8yA6IgWhuc= =Ocn7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at sw.oz.au Fri May 23 13:01:02 2003 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Fri May 23 13:01:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 02:49:05PM +1000, Adam Donnison wrote: > I too have been watching from afar (as it were). I'm wondering who > the audience of any statement would be? If it were to go to the > general public then it might be worth condensing the comments from > Eric Raymonds paper which essentially would boil down to a press > release something like: > > SCO resorts to dirty tricks to lessen Linux > > SCO, in what they are hoping will be characterised as a David and > Goliath contest, have started procedings against software giant > IBM in an attempt to gain lost ground to the now well entrenched > Linux operating system. > > In what can only be characterised as a farago of mistruths, > misdirections and outright fabrications, SCO is attempting to > claim that IBM, by its multi-billion dollar investment > in the free operating system Linux has infringed SCO's IP rights. > > (short description of what Linux is, what the stakes are, what > the actual claim is). I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > The idea is to try and point out that SCO has ulterior motives, > and is not the lilly-white injured party it tries to portray. > It has to be done in short sentences, and without too much > detail, in order to get it into the space requirements of most > publications, and also to get people to read it. By all means > go on and explain the differences, but if it runs to more than > 400 lines, forget it. And attribute it to someone with a title. > Just my 2c worth. Chris From andrae.muys at braintree.com.au Fri May 23 13:06:02 2003 From: andrae.muys at braintree.com.au (Andrae Muys) Date: Fri May 23 13:06:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <1053664665.3672.10.camel@luiginb.fgcint.com> Message-ID: <3ECDABDC.806@braintree.com.au> Luigi Cantoni wrote: > This certainly has been a great history lession. > > I agree with Enno just a general statement of support and that people > (organisations) should have nothing to fear. > > Maybe something like because it is open and all code can be seen then > anyone can easily point to the exact piece and say it is mine. Until > that is done and proven there is no problem. > > I assume that no one has actually said these 100's of lines of code > right here are the ones copied from what xxx had. > I was thinking about this issue this morning, and it occurred to me that there is probably very little to be gained by "expressing support" for linux. After all, this will hardly surprise anyone. OTOH a press release accusing SCO of anti-competitive behaviour in refusing to substantiate their accusations of wrong doing during the development of the Linux Kernel; Calling on SCO to release specific allegations of wrong doing, or abstain from vague threats and rumour mongering. One constructive thing we could do would be to attack SCO's allegation that the Linux Kernel Developers could somehow "Launder" their code to avoid the legal challange. That not only is such an accusation of dishonesty offensive, but physically impossible due to the millions of copies of the source code distributed in line with Linux's Open Source principles. Andrae P.S. Yeah I always prefer counter-attack to defense... how could you tell? ;) -- Andrae Muys But can it generate *quantum* Haiku error messages, in Latin, where each Engineer line of the error message is a Braintree Communications palindrome? -- Mike Vanier on perl From adam at saki.com.au Fri May 23 13:22:01 2003 From: adam at saki.com.au (Adam Donnison) Date: Fri May 23 13:22:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> Message-ID: <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> Chris Maltby wrote: > > I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: > > According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby > group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > Thats as long as Greg is happy to say those things :-) Adam -- Adam Donnison email: adam at saki.com.au Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd. 93 Kallista-Emerald Road phone: +61 3 9752 1512 THE PATCH VIC 3792 AUSTRALIA fax: +61 3 9752 1098 From Murray.Jensen at csiro.au Fri May 23 13:27:02 2003 From: Murray.Jensen at csiro.au (Murray Jensen) Date: Fri May 23 13:27:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG Message-ID: <13366.1053667576@ull> On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:39 +1000, Enno Davids writes: >it seems to me we're not well placed to put our hands on our hearts and >say that the allegations are untrue. Have a read of this: http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html - the title is "OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint" (where OSI stands for Open Source Initiative). The authors are Eric Raymond and Rob Landley. Interesting reading and might be a good reference for people wanting some in-depth analysis of the complaint. Cheers! Murray... -- Murray Jensen, CSIRO Manufacturing & Infra. Tech. Phone: +61 3 9662 7763 Locked Bag No. 9, Preston, Vic, 3072, Australia. Fax: +61 3 9662 7853 Internet: Murray.Jensen at csiro.au Hymod project: http://www.msa.cmst.csiro.au/projects/Hymod/ To the extent permitted by law, CSIRO does not represent, warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained or that the communication is free of errors, virus, interception or interference. The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential or privileged. Any unauthorised use or disclosure is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please delete it immediately and notify Murray Jensen on +61 3 9662 7763. Thank you. From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 23 15:41:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 23 15:41:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au Message-ID: I've just completed the (not so trivial) task of mailing all of the linux user groups as listed on www.linux.org.au/usergroups/. Hopefully they will all get back to me with their up to date information so I can put together the new (and more accurate) user group listing site. If you know of any group whose information is either missing or incorrect on the current site, please get them to contact me and I'll make sure the new and correct details are on the new one. rock on, ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Fri May 23 17:03:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri May 23 17:03:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030523024239.GI38368@doc.metva.com.au> <3ECDA841.4060208@saki.com.au> <20030523050008.GH7884@aurema.com> <3ECDAFA6.8000402@saki.com.au> Message-ID: <20030523090206.GS80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 23 May 2003 at 15:20:38 +1000, Adam Donnison wrote: > Chris Maltby wrote: >> >> I like it. I'd change the second paragraph to be: >> >> According to Greg Lehey, President of the open source lobby >> group AUUG, "the case can only be characterised as a farago... > > Thats as long as Greg is happy to say those things :-) Give me a chance to find a dictionary. Seriously, we're discussing it. We're all a bit upset about what's going on, but as an organization representing all UNIX users, it's not clear what we should do. We can certainly point out factual errors, but since we haven't seen many facts, that's not going to be worth much. I'll know more after the board meeting tomorrow. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030523/96e0a8a8/attachment-0001.pgp From steve at DigitalSmarties.com Fri May 23 17:16:01 2003 From: steve at DigitalSmarties.com (Steve Landers) Date: Fri May 23 17:16:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030523090206.GS80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <0BE3BD68-8CFF-11D7-98B3-00039305E9C6@DigitalSmarties.com> Folks, On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 05:02 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Seriously, we're discussing it. We're all a bit upset about what's > going on, but as an organization representing all UNIX users, it's not > clear what we should do. We can certainly point out factual errors, > but since we haven't seen many facts, that's not going to be worth > much. I'll know more after the board meeting tomorrow. There is also the danger of appearing reactionary. If the objective is to give help keep people comfortable, and remove the FUD factor then there's plenty of material in ESRs position paper on the OSI site (http://www.opensource.org). Personally, I'd point to that rather than argue the case ourselves. One strategy is to quote people like ESR thus "well respected Open Source advocates like Eric Raymond have pointed out numerous factual errors and inconsistencies ... blah blah blah". Then, in the unlikely event that SCO has a case and it is proven, AUUG will at least have some credibility left ;-) Cheers Steve -- Steve Landers Software Design Solutions Digital Smarties steve at DigitalSmarties.com Perth, Western Australia DigitalSmarties.com From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 23 17:57:01 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 23 17:57:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030523081725.GB4343@linmagau.org> Message-ID: On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > I would be very happy if you would copy me a list of al the actual ones > like "live" you get to respond.. for when we start tothink about > distribution.. that way may save Kim lots of work :) I plan to have a pretty simple data file, or SQL table so i can probably grab out the list of emails pretty easily, and there shouldn't be a problem handing this over to you (esp considering you could just grab it of the website anyway). > Thanks > Kim np - glad can help :) ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From jdub at perkypants.org Fri May 23 20:41:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Fri May 23 20:41:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux User Groups List on linux.org.au In-Reply-To: References: <20030523081725.GB4343@linmagau.org> Message-ID: <20030523101950.GI1990@lazarus> > On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kimberly Shelt wrote: > > >I would be very happy if you would copy me a list of al the actual ones > >like "live" you get to respond.. for when we start tothink about > >distribution.. that way may save Kim lots of work :) > > I plan to have a pretty simple data file, or SQL table so i can probably > grab out the list of emails pretty easily, and there shouldn't be a > problem handing this over to you (esp considering you could just grab it > of the website anyway). It might be interesting to note which organisations replied quickly, provided more information, etc., so that the search for ready and willing contributors / volunteers for LA (or even linmagau) stuff can be... "prioritised". ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ I don't know whose brain child it was, but it was quite an ugly child. From andrewr at iagu.net Sat May 24 07:12:01 2003 From: andrewr at iagu.net (Andrew Rutherford) Date: Sat May 24 07:12:01 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: At 6:05 PM +0930 22/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went >> System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD >> kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V > >So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given >that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for >SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. At the time (I still have some old Sun press releases for amusements sake, plus some email conversations with Sun employees at the time), Sun were trying to get more of a focus and business and less in education/engineering, and believed that SysV had a much greater following in the business world (were they thinking about SCO? That would be a great irony!), and having a system based on code generally thought to be made by "tinkerers" rather than "software professionals" would be a hindrance in their push into the high-end business market. > >>> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of their > >>> software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on Linux. Given the aforementioned tiff between Microsoft and SCO, with SCO removing their Xenix code which was there to support Microsoft, is it any wonder that Microsoft dropped support? Even if just to prove a point - "they removed support for our code, so we're not coding for their platform any more." -- Andrew Rutherford sip:andrewr at iagu.net 244 Pirie Street Iagu Networks tel:+61-8-8425-2255 Adelaide SA 5000 http://www.iagu.net/ mailto:andrewr at iagu.net Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Sat May 24 18:24:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Sat May 24 18:24:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: SCO position, rationale and AUUG - dropping SCO OS support In-Reply-To: References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305241830.48016.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Sat, 24 May 2003 07:10, Andrew Rutherford wrote: > Original Leon wrote: >...> We also note that Microsoft have dropped support for some of >...> their software on SCO UNIX, but support those programs on >...> Linux. > Given the aforementioned tiff between Microsoft and SCO, with SCO > removing their Xenix code which was there to support Microsoft, is it > any wonder that Microsoft dropped support? Even if just to prove a > point - "they removed support for our code, so we're not coding for > their platform any more." We're not talking about a decade ago (although at the time Xenix was the next Great White Hope for Microsoft and every MS employee's desktop had a Xenix terminal), we're talking current products. For example, FrontPage 2000 extensions list OpenServer and OpenUnix (and AIX) as no longer supported; FrontPage 2002 doesn't mention them. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From mail at alexlog.nl Sun May 25 00:01:01 2003 From: mail at alexlog.nl (Alex Geus) Date: Sun May 25 00:01:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] A dutch Perception Message-ID: <0HFE00194F164A@smtp03.wxs.nl> Hi, During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work. Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low. By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you. Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-). With Regards, Alexander Geus mail at alexlog.nl Netherlands) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030525/b6746e9f/attachment-0001.htm From mail at alexlog.nl Sun May 25 01:23:02 2003 From: mail at alexlog.nl (Alex Geus) Date: Sun May 25 01:23:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] A Dutch Perception with suitable URL Message-ID: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> Hi, the previous mail contains a wrong URL.Correction is done in this mail. Sorry for the inconvenience. During the last winter I set up my (photo)Log. As you know this is hard work. Comparing to this job the amount of visitors from Australia to my site is still low. By way of this mail I want introduce my log to you. Take a look at www.alexlog.nl once, and if you like it, twice :-) With Regards, Alexander Geus mail at alexlog.nl Netherlands Europe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030525/65966251/attachment-0001.htm From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Sun May 25 08:26:01 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Sun May 25 08:26:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] A Dutch Perception with suitable URL In-Reply-To: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> References: <0HFE00GLHITVPZ@smtp06.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <20030525100043.1d8e3ec9.lloy0076@adam.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alex, > With Regards, Alexander Geus mail at alexlog.nl > Netherlands Europe. Your site looks interesting however under Mozilla 1.3.1 it renders really badly. Specifically the text at the bottom (April 17th down) doesn't place itself correctly. I'm not sure why though :-) HTH - -- Sing a new song, chiquitita! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+0A6zmk7m2JX6ki4RAhe2AJ9RyvplSH0BGVUk01ZhYf8r5PeZdwCgjzf+ SQCM/wBPlFt/20YD/DQ3yqc= =Ak+J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Sun May 25 09:18:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sun May 25 09:18:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522083550.GQ68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030525011719.GX80220@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Saturday, 24 May 2003 at 8:40:57 +0930, Andrew Rutherford wrote: > At 6:05 PM +0930 22/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Bear in mind that one of the reasons that (I was told) Sun went >>> System V for Solaris was because of the fact that the SunOS BSD >>> kernel didn't MP anywhere near as well as System V >> >> So they say, at least nowadays. I find that hard to believe, given >> that at the time (System V.3(.0)) it didn't have *any* support for >> SMP. That didn't come until the early 1990s. > > At the time (I still have some old Sun press releases for amusements > sake, plus some email conversations with Sun employees at the time), > Sun were trying to get more of a focus and business and less in > education/engineering, and believed that SysV had a much greater > following in the business world Yes, that was my recollection from things we heard at Tandem. We were just getting on the System V bandwagon ourselves, and we looked at Sun with great suspicion. > (were they thinking about SCO? That would be a great irony!), No, I don't think so. My recollection at the time was that Intel-based UNIX was looked on as something of a toy. When we *did* start using UNIX on Intel, it was In(ter)active UNIX, not SCO, which we looked upon as a strange hybrid with Microsoft. > and having a system based on code generally thought to be made by > "tinkerers" rather than "software professionals" would be a > hindrance in their push into the high-end business market. Yes, I think this is quite valid. At the time we also used some of the "Berkeley extensions" like TCP/IP. Others include FFS in the list of extensions, though we didn't implement it. The impression I got at the time was that BSD UNIX was pretty crappy, though it contained some good ideas. It wasn't until I actually got my hands on it (BSD/386, in March 1992) that I was surprised to find how much better it worked than Interactive UNIX/386. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030525/e0bd3413/attachment-0001.pgp From greebo at pacific.net.au Mon May 26 06:56:02 2003 From: greebo at pacific.net.au (Pia Smith) Date: Mon May 26 06:56:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1053575500.2150.51.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> <20030522040503.GU15241@cyber.com.au> <20030522043938.GI2401@aurema.com> <1053580272.684.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Message-ID: <1053903177.2358.89.camel@fehung> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 15:11, Jonathan Oxer wrote: > The IT dude should be able to point to the document, which the PHB then > reads, breathes a sigh of relief that the allegations are a load of > hogwash and he's not in any danger, and goes on about his business. I'd suggest that bug companies don't trust their IT dudes that much, especially when it is legal stuff between big companies. Its not so much a problem of can we prove this, its a matter of companies feeling there isn't a problem. Pia From greebo at pacific.net.au Mon May 26 07:10:01 2003 From: greebo at pacific.net.au (Pia Smith) Date: Mon May 26 07:10:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position, rationale and AUUG In-Reply-To: <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522063723.GO68593@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305221735.31841.chris@csamuel.org> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, or at least be damned familiar with what they say. Is it more effective to shoot 1000 bullets or to combine our efforts into a bomb? I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem that we are avoiding the claims made. Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better than fiddly details about code or Microsoft claims (neither of which a business or person outside the community either wants to hear or will understand). My 2c Pia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Mon May 26 09:21:02 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Mon May 26 09:21:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> Message-ID: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: > It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the > opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, Yes, but not just duplicating what they say or there is no point. > Is it more effective to shoot 1000 bullets or to combine our > efforts into a bomb? That depends on the situation. One bomb in thick jungle is next to useless because the foliage absorbs the shock. Chasing the analogy further, nuclear bombs do not scale linearly because the bigger the bomb is, the more of its energy is wasted fighting itself - you get a hotter, denser core to the explosion but not much more damage. Binding the analogy back to real life again, I think we need to make some combined statements which support rather than replicate the existing efforts. Analogous to ringing the original detonation with a salvo of small bombs. > I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, > but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no > proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem > that we are avoiding the claims made. Good idea. But would it defuse (or diffuse) our efforts at all if I carefully crafted a me-only corporate statement which looks askance at Microsoft's response and released it either before or after a group response? As I hear it the fee they paid to SCO was of the order of 10-20 million dollars, chicken feed to Microsoft but apparently not far short of the paper value of SCO. The obvious message behind that is that they like what SCO's doing and are keeping the company alive as long as they are a nuisance to Linux and to IBM. I'd like to make my own separate statement along the lines of "it's next to impossible to be sure, but it looks to our corporate cynical eyes as if..." because me losing global karma points isn't going to be the problem it would be for LA/AUUG/SLPWA/etc. I do want to make points which our groups want to keep clean hands on, but don't want it to detract from any group statement. > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents all) would be a good foundation for a release. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From bowden at iinet.net.au Mon May 26 10:31:01 2003 From: bowden at iinet.net.au (Tim Bowden) Date: Mon May 26 10:31:01 2003 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread] Message-ID: <3ED17CCD.7040807@iinet.net.au> Leon Brooks wrote: >On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: > > >>It just occured to me that maybe our tactic should be supporting the >>opinions made from people like Raymond and Perens, >> >> > >Yes, but not just duplicating what they say or there is no point. > > > If you want to know about getting a message out, particularly to an audience who is not tuned in to you, just ask a politician how it is done. They are masters at it. Don't forget the old political adage 'tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them what you have told them'. I remember a radio interview with an old hand at labor campaigning and he made the comment that by the time you have told your message so many times you are sick of saying it, and you imagine the public are groaning in protest at having to hear it again, then they are only just beginning to get the message. Repeating the message ad nauseam is worthwhile. That's why politicians do it and why advertisers do it. It is human nature for most people to accept with less than rigorous analysis something they have heard many times, even if it is demonstrably wrong with just a little thought. If you want your message accepted, keep telling it. Your audience is not tuned in to you until you bombard their senses. Sad but true. Just my 2c Tim Bowden From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Mon May 26 16:09:02 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Mon May 26 16:09:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Monday, 26 May 2003 at 9:27:17 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Mon, 26 May 2003 06:54, Pia Smith wrote: >> I think that a coordinated effort from LA and AUUG is a great idea, >> but we should certainly snip the Microsoft talk, as there is no >> proof. While that is not definite, focusing on them makes it seem >> that we are avoiding the claims made. > > Good idea. But would it defuse (or diffuse) our efforts at all if I > carefully crafted a me-only corporate statement which looks askance > at Microsoft's response and released it either before or after a > group response? I don't know. I think we should coordinate our efforts, anyway. > I'd like to make my own separate statement along the lines of "it's > next to impossible to be sure, but it looks to our corporate cynical > eyes as if..." because me losing global karma points isn't going to > be the problem it would be for LA/AUUG/SLPWA/etc. I do want to make > points which our groups want to keep clean hands on, but don't want > it to detract from any group statement. This is a very different aspect from what we've been talking about. I'm not saying "don't do it", but it makes it clearer how we should proceed. Each of us has a different perspective of the problem. >> Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, >> and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > all) would be a good foundation for a release. At the AUUG board meeting on Saturday, we discussed the matter and came to the conclusion that AUUG and Linux Australia should make a press statement about the matter. We discussed whether this should be a joint statement or separate statements and came to the conclusion that we probably wouldn't be able to agree on the wording of a joint statement quickly enough, so we'd probably have to issue separate statements. I expressed the opinion that I would like the statements to be as similar as possible, but the others are probably correct when they say that this would be very difficult. I intend to put our statement past the LA board before publishing, however, and I hope they do the same. Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030526/929c0d7b/attachment-0001.pgp From andrewr at iagu.net Mon May 26 16:35:02 2003 From: andrewr at iagu.net (Andrew Rutherford) Date: Mon May 26 16:35:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: At 5:38 PM +0930 26/5/03, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >At the AUUG board meeting on Saturday, we discussed the matter and >came to the conclusion that AUUG and Linux Australia should make a >press statement about the matter. We discussed whether this should be >a joint statement or separate statements and came to the conclusion >that we probably wouldn't be able to agree on the wording of a joint >statement quickly enough, so we'd probably have to issue separate >statements. I expressed the opinion that I would like the statements >to be as similar as possible, but the others are probably correct when >they say that this would be very difficult. I intend to put our >statement past the LA board before publishing, however, and I hope >they do the same. Also discussed was that although we would probably come up with different wordings and so two different press releases, there's no reason why the two different press releases could not be released jointly to help attract media attention. (If you can follow the noun versus verb distinctions in the above - "release" is a little overloaded. :-) It always helps if two different items about the same thing land on a journalists desk at the same time, so they can write an article taking the bits they like from both, having references to two statements in their article: "AUUG say this" and "Linux Australia say this" - it (hopefully) makes much more compelling reading. Short form: If we can't co-ordinate the words 100%, let's at least co-ordinate the timing. :-) -- Andrew Rutherford sip:andrewr at iagu.net 244 Pirie Street Iagu Networks tel:+61-8-8425-2255 Adelaide SA 5000 http://www.iagu.net/ mailto:andrewr at iagu.net Australia From Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au Mon May 26 18:32:02 2003 From: Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm) Date: Mon May 26 18:32:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030522235108.GA6401@cyber.com.au> <1053903257.2369.95.camel@fehung> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Message-ID: <1053945053.1112.889.camel@jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au> > > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > all) would be a good foundation for a release. I am going to write something proper about all this, although I'm trying to write a submission on ACCC's Internet interconnection enquiry at the same time, hence my apparent slackness. You could use this as a soundbite I guess, or edit it to suit: "Vice Chairman of the Society of Linux Professionals (WA), Jeremy Malcolm, states, 'Much like British Telecom's recent failed patent enforcement claim in which it sought royalties for the use of hyperlinks on the Web, SCO's lawsuit against IBM is an opportunistic attempt to cash in on the burgeoning success of an operating system that has proved more popular, better-supported and more innovative than SCO's own. In a disingenuous and hypocritical claim built upon a succession of documented factual errors, SCO has risen to the forefront of those companies willing to employ fear, uncertainty and doubt as their primary weapons in the competitive race. It is only to be hoped that SCO's legal argument will be demolished like the house of cards that it is before too many corporate users of Linux are unnecessarily driven to adopt inferior operating systems.'" -- JEREMY MALCOLM Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 301 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030526/ec429fab/attachment-0001.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Tue May 27 06:19:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Tue May 27 06:19:02 2003 Subject: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] SCO position - Pia's thread In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305270819.00835.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the > stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? It appears to have been said by McBride in an interview, possibly with CNET News.com - article with offending quote is here: http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-999371.html This article from the good people at LWN seems to support that the chat was with CNET: http://lwn.net/Articles/31302/ perhaps an email to the journalist, Stephen Shankland , would confirm this ? good luck! Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtKS041yjaOTJg85AQFNyQgAtfghT/MqoQ/c5JxB3dn1m+1qDP8nxctT OA8EVvANUrBRKi235e8QthPOp6Q5K6bWaSB7e63JQF1nMj0IEnCXvRAXZ21XhT4z tID8WilpHRMEWfNpucdNTeKu8p09rJgAfgD+xw6O4JcMzqrigjnr1zD8wOaZVPyI Dy4PbcDUierKGH657Psn2+vGJrGWNvweA9+LbWthE/quZIu41HMDU/ZEwq8PVHX9 Qh8SxQwclqqTWZhL+y1QFZTi3OoQUrz3WFVA0FBZEp0l5ptQv0/cYrPvtiumn8tT FG+KOmdy89DgvM52ijw1D9jb/PaDkPgLGGDMjPP8MkXoqJKLqhw/BQ== =pvI7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Tue May 27 07:42:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Tue May 27 07:42:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the > stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? A very interesting development found via slashdot. LinuxTag have decided to set their lawyers onto SCO by issuing an "Abmahnung" - basically a legal warning to stop doing something that they feel is banned under Germanys unfair competition laws. For more details see [1] at the end of the email. Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? The LinuxTag.de "Abmahnung" requires SCO to either withdraw the claims about copied code, or make the evidence public, or face the court, with a deadline of the 30th May. Here's the text of the LinuxTag.de press release (the english version): http://www.linuxtag.org/2003/en/press/releases.xsp?id=3 English Version: LinuxTag has given notice to SCO Group GmbH to desist from unfair competitive practices Lawyers representing the LinuxTag association have given notice to SCO Group GmbH to desist from unfair competitive practiices. The notice, dated Friday, May 23, maintains that SCO Group is sowing uncertainty among the community of GNU/Linux users, developers and suppliers. "SCO needs to stop claiming that the standard Linux kernel violates its copyrights, or they need to lay the evidence for their claim on the table," said LinuxTag's Michael Kleinhenz. The association demanded that the German SCO subsidiary retract its claims regarding ownership of Linux kernel code by this Friday, May 30, or make its evidence public. "SCO must not be allowed to damage its competitors by unsubstantiated claims, to intimidate their customers, and to inflict lasting damage on the reputation of GNU/Linux as an open platform," Kleinhenz added. Until a few weeks ago, SCO itself distributed the Linux kernel GNU General Public License (GPL) as a member of the UnitedLinux alliance. Thus even if SCO owns parts of the Linux kernel, it has made them into Free Software by distributing them under the GPL. "This situation illustrates the superiority of the Free Software licensing model: If a software manufacturer withdraws from the development of GPL software, its contributions that were published under the the GPL up to that time remain available to users," said J?rgen Siepmann, attorney and founding member of LinuxTag. Till Jaeger, Director of the Institute for Legal Aspects of Free and Open Source Software, agrees: "Companies see this as an important pillar of investment security." There's a lot of heat and noise on Slashdot about this, especially where people don't understand the German law system, so I dug around a bit (thanks to Google) and found this explanation in English about what exactly an "Abmahnung" is. http://www.avrio.net/allcountrys/NewsAreasCivil.html Here's hoping that SCO will be forced to put up or shut up.. cheers! Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtKmG41yjaOTJg85AQHKbAf+NIwJaqgSq0fux+JQNG2R37KvHAGcJgd7 TpkSJLpwmAOkD9Mvd68x6Rd3y0P/fOQ1y9o5dJRQK7TlFt02zrQ3wMxSGZcXwcbI WfI661B25Qr2lIGll7Bm3g0GjKV76rtGtuiqphIUTA7Q88YhFJtQ6BObdSJcQN+5 eSF/27uA3rXf5pcSwsMmq2GtnWW77zZ4iHyxuQ8LEM8TmZyivF1eqVi9/PU42w08 rvY7A6hFZjrAB2eGbQ7yZfoTO1M9EKMeoLI4Pj0YxLGc3linUTsht4QYsJPuda2e Gi2wb8kNGf9avQABsFT58IQbeVHs+IXkODRCUnjAMpIbJV1InOhRtA== =OCzQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au Tue May 27 07:59:02 2003 From: Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm) Date: Tue May 27 07:59:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <1053993483.802.8.camel@jeremy.private.ilaw.com.au> On Tue, 2003-05-27 at 07:41, Chris Samuel wrote: > Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for > one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? It means the injunction is sought in the absence of the other party, usually due to urgency or because the purpose of the injunction would be defeated if the other party knew about it. BTW I sent another email to these lists but I mis-spelled talk at auug.org.au as task at auug.org.au, so here is another copy of it: On Mon, 2003-05-26 at 18:30, Jeremy Malcolm wrote: > > > Maybe a statement quoting some comments made by some of our people, > > > and then supporting them and extrapolating slightly is better > > > > Certainly! Care to make a quotable statement? (-: > > > > Actually, one sound-ish bite each from you, Jeremy and Grog (Presidents > > all) would be a good foundation for a release. > > I am going to write something proper about all this, although I'm trying > to write a submission on ACCC's Internet interconnection enquiry at the > same time, hence my apparent slackness. You could use this as a soundbite > I guess, or edit it to suit: > > "Vice Chairman of the Society of Linux Professionals (WA), Jeremy Malcolm, > states, 'Much like British Telecom's recent failed patent enforcement > claim in which it sought royalties for the use of hyperlinks on the Web, > SCO's lawsuit against IBM is an opportunistic attempt to cash in on the > burgeoning success of an operating system that has proved more popular, > better-supported and more innovative than SCO's own. In a disingenuous > and hypocritical claim built upon a succession of documented factual > errors, SCO has risen to the forefront of those companies willing to > employ fear, uncertainty and doubt as their primary weapons in the > competitive race. It is only to be hoped that SCO's legal argument will > be demolished like the house of cards that it is before too many > corporate users of Linux are unnecessarily driven to adopt inferior > operating systems.'" -- JEREMY MALCOLM Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 301 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030527/2da901be/attachment-0001.pgp From kim at linmagau.org Wed May 28 20:25:02 2003 From: kim at linmagau.org (Kimberly Shelt) Date: Wed May 28 20:25:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] More on SCO :) This time from AUUG Message-ID: <20030528122425.GA7983@linmagau.org> PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE AUUG CALLS FOR SCO TO CEASE DESTRUCTIVE ACTIONS AUUG Inc. calls on SCO to cease its destructive actions and to work toward the constructive resolution of intellectual property issues. SYDNEY, Australia -- 28 May 2003 -- The Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group (AUUG, Inc.) today called on SCO (formerly Caldera) to cease its destructive actions and work toward the constructive resolution of any intellectual property (IP) issues SCO has with the Linux and Open Source communities. AUUG further called on SCO to publicly identify any IP violations in Linux so the issues can be resolved as soon as possible. The full release on the PLUG site :) http://www.plug.linux.org.au Gordon Hubbard, Treasurer and Press Secretary for AUUG Inc. advises the release will be on the AUUG pages ASAP :) Regards Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org From bob at fots.org.au Wed May 28 23:19:01 2003 From: bob at fots.org.au (bob) Date: Wed May 28 23:19:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. Message-ID: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records reveals that Novell owns those patents." "Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it." Plus many more quotable quotes. -- It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. From jdub at perkypants.org Wed May 28 23:29:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Wed May 28 23:29:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. In-Reply-To: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> References: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> Message-ID: <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> > Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html > > "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must > know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records > reveals that Novell owns those patents." And SCO's response: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030528/law059_1.html Bruce Perens saying nice things about Novell: http://www.perens.com/Articles/SCO/BigLie.html I'm glad no one has been silly enough to send out a press release so far. :) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Consensus is whatever the developers remember or agree with." - Paul Vixie, Open Sources From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 29 08:43:02 2003 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 29 08:43:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO claims turn to dust, blow away. In-Reply-To: <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> References: <200305282317.37343.bob@fots.org.au> <20030528152729.GA13678@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030529004150.GL15241@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 01:27:29AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Novell Claims Ownership of UNIX System V > > > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html > > > > "SCO continues to say that it owns the UNIX System V patents, yet it must > > know that it does not. A simple review of U.S. Patent Office records > > reveals that Novell owns those patents." > > And SCO's response: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030528/law059_1.html > Indeed. SCO never claimed a patent issue case. Hoever, from the press release: Copyrights and patents are protection against strangers. Contracts are what you use against parties you have relationships with. From a legal standpoint, contracts end up being far stronger than anything you could do with copyrights. SCO's lawsuit against IBM does not involve patents or copyrights. SCO's complaint specifically alleges breach of contract, and SCO intends to protect and enforce all of the contracts that the company has with more than 6,000 licensees. Translates to: We can only ever sue IBM, and not Red Hat, Suse nor normal Linux users, as it's only IBM whom we have a contract with that we claimed they breached. Therefore, our public comments threatening these other enteties is legal hot air, which we are spouting to scare people off Linux, but which we cannot actually take further. We know this, as evidenced by this press release response to Novell, yet we continue to spread fear and doubt. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon at cyberknights.com.au Thu May 29 09:07:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Thu May 29 09:07:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Fwd: [Talk] Novell the Red Knight... Message-ID: <200305290916.00962.leon@cyberknights.com.au> FYI ---------- Forward; originally to talk at auug.org.au ---------- Subject: [Talk] Novell the Red Knight... Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:36 From: David J N Begley To: talk at auug.org.au In case there's anyone left who hasn't already seen this, Novell has come out swinging (hard) against SCO and its claims against IBM and Linux. In short, Novell accuse SCO of falsely claiming ownership of UNIX intellectual property (pointing to public records and business correspondence indicating Novell still owns same) in order to "sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt ... in order to extort payments from Linux distributors and users". Novell goes on to reiterate strong support for Linux and open source. This, of course, raises some rather embarrassing questions about Microsoft "supporting intellectual property ownership" by giving money to SCO recently. The Novell press release: http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html The inevitable Slashdot follow-up: http://slashdot.org/articles/03/05/28/1252229.shtml?tid=123&tid=130&tid =185&tid=190&tid=99 Anyone writing any press release for AUUG should probably take this major development into account. Interesting times indeed... _______________________________________________ Talk mailing list Talk at auug.org.au http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/talk ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au Thu May 29 11:15:01 2003 From: Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu May 29 11:15:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305260927.17023.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030526080802.GH15770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 27 May 2003 at 9:41:15 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > On Monday 26 May 2003 6:08 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Can anybody recall where SCO defended their refusal to say where the >> stolen code was, and how exactly they defended it? > > A very interesting development found via slashdot. LinuxTag have decided to > set their lawyers onto SCO by issuing an "Abmahnung" - basically a legal > warning to stop doing something that they feel is banned under Germanys > unfair competition laws. For more details see [1] at the end of the email. > > Quick question - what's an ex-parte injunction ? I know "ex-parte" means "for > one party" in Latin, but what does it mean in legal terms ? Probably nothing. It's the *translation* of a legal term. All legal terms are only relevant in their context. That's why the term Abmahnung can't be translated in legal context, because the concept doesn't exist in English or Australian law (I believe; IANAL). The original German term is "einstweilige Verf?gung", which means, roughly, a temporary decree. The intention here is to stop people from doing something which could be detrimental to the interests of one party until the case can be handled in court. Contrary to what the reference implies, German courts are *very* slow, and the einstweilige Verf?gung is intended to defuse this problem by providing immediate relief for the interim. Einstweilige Verf?gungen can, indeed, be issued within hours. So what does ex-parte mean? In legal terms, that means made or executed on one side only. I assume in this case it's the judge who acts alone without more than a modicum of proof. I'll leave it to others to decide whether this is a good translation. > The LinuxTag.de "Abmahnung" requires SCO to either withdraw the > claims about copied code, or make the evidence public, or face the > court, with a deadline of the 30th May. Interestingly, you don't have to be an involved party to issue an Abmahnung. There's a lawyer in M?nchen (Munich) who lives off issuing Abmahnungen to people who use names in "inappropriate" ways. Some years ago there was an Intel processor chip set called Triton. As I commented in the zeroth edition of "The Complete FreeBSD", Triton is not a trade mark of Intel Corporation. It is a trade mark of some other company which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with computers. Unfortunately, an overly zealous German lawyer has taken to suing people who use this name to refer to the chipset. Sheesh. This was done with Abmahnungen. Getting back to my original question, I have since spoken with Kieran O'Shaughnessy about the matter. The results, some of which are interesting, are in the latest revision of http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/attachments/20030529/97c36ef5/attachment-0001.pgp From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 29 12:18:01 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 29 12:18:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: LinuxTag.de sicks lawyers on SCO Gmbh. over Linux code claims In-Reply-To: <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200305220856.49841.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200305270941.30208.chris@csamuel.org> <20030529031346.GI18422@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <200305291416.37897.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thursday 29 May 2003 1:13 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Interestingly, you don't have to be an involved party to issue an > Abmahnung. There's a lawyer in M?nchen (Munich) who lives off issuing > Abmahnungen to people who use names in "inappropriate" ways. The same happened to the guy who was developing killustrator, which had to be renamed to kontour (now looks like it's been replaced with Karbon14 in KOffice). Not Reinhard Skuhra Weise & Partner by some chance ? - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtWJpI1yjaOTJg85AQG89wf/eYA5WcI6g15E/HenAagNJLfAsddSvTih J+lGX1pYyJA8PftE4PxyeiRQHUrfGHgT0KDc3GSU/lmfZjKEIS8eAHyMe0poARKe W05jMxWGh8zzaiJss/qrTmtyFPWtwKyetqmUMt8EruWyILewaJ43VHp/fsm+SSVh XcZHOVvrEPyA6QoLZJb2PIv3KF48G196LwBHsY2NxNbg4NzmBs925YwqQxdB1Xmi Yz74oeiUI2KD8TItT50t0G5WJKtrmHIEeuMh7n6V2LPg2CnNWDHULOGTIGShSy3z ONU8Al1U1mQqDxaJzT8hShhaeHonKjAAtxzU2N5/K0FCy7Z8H5w2Lw== =Quh+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris at csamuel.org Thu May 29 13:01:02 2003 From: chris at csamuel.org (Chris Samuel) Date: Thu May 29 13:01:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality Message-ID: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- OK - so: - - Novell say SCO doesn't own the copyrights or patents to UNIX. - - The US Patent Office says SCO doesn't own the patents to UNIX. - - SCO say that their case against IBM doesn't involve patents (in their response to Novell) about UNIX. - - SCO says the whole deal is about (AT&T originated) UNIX. and then: - - SCO's chairman says that SCO may sue Linus for patent infringement. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BC408959E-005A-4E93-9006-B32DCD1FCA22%7D McBride added that unless more companies start licensing SCO's property, he may also sue Linus Torvalds, who is credited with inventing the Linux operating system, for patent infringement. Who do they think they're kidding ? Interestingly SCO's share price dropped by 24% (as can be seen on SCO's own website currently - http://ir.sco.com/ - it shows them at 6.60 down 24% - lowest was $5.85). Here's a wild dream, IBM and Novell team up, buy SCO, GPL UNIX and release patents for general use... Yeah, I know, pretty wild dream.. :-) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC Need someone with 10 years of Linux, Unix, Networking & IT Security skills in Melbourne, VIC ? Email me. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPtWTb41yjaOTJg85AQGRkAf/Ze+HULZ5CKfnEwiqyGspxanK5mATf6C/ dnmOBPWAXEWHqDimfdJlskdZ/Sn8S/61fSIzUgHZoPvbocspgoHqIIHoadJpoDmU pYUkrlUta2F1AQmkppbKmnd6Zpy88fzCbOtC3mwxAoVkp7vXIJll70PUyaKzHGUy VvNKGhGJoh1yTPkcH3qBn4xGJHLu/xoTHs2qtaMc+kWt/BbjkElAGiNScIyMSIlK egNx/H5XHk3hWMUEG2QGfyDHFwp7rW7ze8r0TIglzBwhcYtr5NN81nMHRCEqDuYI V2HybkQV937LDaaxh8FGcQv2BUod25Z51GIS4coAwvIugnhv4mPAMg== =S4te -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au Thu May 29 13:11:01 2003 From: xfesty at computeraddictions.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Thu May 29 13:11:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality In-Reply-To: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 02:28 PM, Chris Samuel wrote: > Here's a wild dream, IBM and Novell team up, buy SCO, GPL UNIX and > release > patents for general use... Yeah, I know, pretty wild dream.. :-) SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in people walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind this /is/ to be bought out. I think they've pissed off enough people at both aforementioned companies for this to be a reality anymore. R - -- - Ryan Verner PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 PH: +61 418 186 604 IRC: xf / irc.openrejects.net "Oh no, not again." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE+1ZYrRcxk39PM6wcRAm5qAJ91PwDh++OXfoT0lXfbcP9NOGy3YwCeOmcs BW/VRhFN61VSilk1rD2uTW8= =ql3g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 29 14:17:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 29 14:17:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list Message-ID: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Hi all, With the renewed level of interesting conversation on linux-aus, and its status as a gathering area for everyone interested in Linux Australia, the new 'lug' list has not been in use. I think the LUGs are a crucial part of Linux Australia's constituency and community responsibility, so we should try and make the most of this list... I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum for the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to organise country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make sure that LA continues to represent the entire country. - A place to discuss inter-LUG cooperation, events, experiences, etc. Of course, much of LA's communication should be directly to linux-aus, available to the entire community. A private 'lug' list should not cause the LA ctte to be less transparent. Hopefully it will enhance communication between LA and the LUGs, and between the LUGs themselves, which will have flow-on effects for the entire community. I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but private forum. Thanks, - Jeff -- GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland http://www.guadec.org/ "I love 2001. Especially the beginning with the proto-humans screaming at each other and beating each other to death with rocks and bones. That very neatly encapsulates my whole concept of interpersonal relationships." - Branden Robinson From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu May 29 14:30:02 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu May 29 14:30:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030529160548.7c72667e.lloy0076@adam.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Good idea...perhaps Stewart (Vice President) and you can liaise with each other to make it so ;-) DSL -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1apEmk7m2JX6ki4RAkDvAJsGlDk+evQ7cSPSmZQM+9qXqHdgaQCgq9zo INkamrn2RTC3b8UMU7uS4Ao= =E2PU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 29 14:33:02 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 29 14:33:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality In-Reply-To: References: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <20030529063010.GF26623@lazarus> > SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in people > walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind this > /is/ to be bought out. It is frustrating to see them royally barfing up their own story all the time, when I would far prefer to see us showing them up for the miserable twats they are. Why must they do such an excellent job of it, denying us our rightful satisfaction? :-) I must admit that I'm having a hard time mustering an intelligent response to the situation any more. It is just so hilariously deplorable. Must refocus. ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but don't be gagged. The time of trial is always." - John J. Chapman From bhards at bigpond.net.au Thu May 29 17:28:02 2003 From: bhards at bigpond.net.au (Brad Hards) Date: Thu May 29 17:28:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <200305291922.10772.bhards@bigpond.net.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16 pm, Jeff Waugh wrote: > - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make sure > that LA continues to represent the entire country. This is a problem for C(anberra)LUG, which has no formal representatives. Is a lug- list really needed? I see LUGs as really important, but don't see where the distinction between the linux-aus list and a lug- list should be drawn. Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1dFCW6pHgIdAuOMRAgGtAJ9dGuaSrzlSVVcvEBg6PE88oTH4BQCgo9Kt K41kHsSWr6YEf6P4MpELn8o= =0QdI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mikal at stillhq.com Thu May 29 17:46:02 2003 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Thu May 29 17:46:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2003, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum for > the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: Brad is correct as to the structure of CLUG. One possible solution is to subscribe the CLUG list to the LUG list, but this strikes me as defeating the purpose. > - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to organise > country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. In the past I have offered to be a CLUG contact, but only so long as other CLUG members remain comfortable with this. This was the case with LCA 2003. Tridge is another obvious candidate, but he gets quite busy... > I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the > ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but private > forum. Perhaps some form of moderation for non-subscribers then? That way, a CLUG concern can still be raised, without us seeing the rest of the content. Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal at stillhq.com) | Stage 1: Steal underpants http://www.stillhq.com | Stage 2: ???? UTC + 10 | Stage 3: Profit From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 29 18:05:02 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 29 18:05:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: This is also my vision for the lugs list. Maybe in an email out to all the LUG people (who have responded to me saying that their LUG is active) I'll point this out and ask them to join it so that we can have wider communication between LUGs (and LA). yay jeff for speaking my mind for me :) On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 04:16 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi all, > > With the renewed level of interesting conversation on linux-aus, and > its > status as a gathering area for everyone interested in Linux Australia, > the > new 'lug' list has not been in use. I think the LUGs are a crucial > part of > Linux Australia's constituency and community responsibility, so we > should > try and make the most of this list... > > I'd like to suggest that the 'lug' list be turned into a private forum > for > the LA committee and LUG committees around the country, to provide: > > - A simple place for the LA ctte to get in touch with LUGs, to > organise > country-wide initiatives, sound out sensitive issues, etc. > > - Representation and feedback from the LUGs to the LA ctte, to make > sure > that LA continues to represent the entire country. > > - A place to discuss inter-LUG cooperation, events, experiences, etc. > > Of course, much of LA's communication should be directly to linux-aus, > available to the entire community. A private 'lug' list should not > cause the > LA ctte to be less transparent. Hopefully it will enhance communication > between LA and the LUGs, and between the LUGs themselves, which will > have > flow-on effects for the entire community. > > I think the most important point raised here is representation, and the > ability for LUG cttes to approach the LA ctte in an accountable but > private > forum. > > Thanks, > > - Jeff > > -- > GU4DEC: June 16th-18th in Dublin, Ireland > http://www.guadec.org/ > > "I love 2001. Especially the beginning with the proto-humans > screaming > at each other and beating each other to death with rocks and bones. > That very neatly encapsulates my whole concept of interpersonal > relationships." - Branden Robinson > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From stewartsmith at mac.com Thu May 29 18:09:18 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Thu May 29 18:09:18 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality In-Reply-To: <20030529063010.GF26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> I'm starting to imagine John Cleese walking rather sillily around the room while saying stuff about the SCO case and I'm laughing just as hard as if he was talking about the budget for the Ministry of Silly Walks. arguably the SCO stuff is funnier. it's getting a bit hard to take the piss, they're doing a fine job on their own. On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 04:30 PM, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > >> SCO's continuing stupid, stupid moves are *only* going to result in >> people >> walking away from them; it seems to me their entire motivation behind >> this >> /is/ to be bought out. > > It is frustrating to see them royally barfing up their own story all > the > time, when I would far prefer to see us showing them up for the > miserable > twats they are. Why must they do such an excellent job of it, denying > us our > rightful satisfaction? :-) > > I must admit that I'm having a hard time mustering an intelligent > response > to the situation any more. It is just so hilariously deplorable. > > Must refocus. ;-) > > - Jeff > > -- > linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia > http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ > > "Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but > don't > be gagged. The time of trial is always." - John J. Chapman > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus > > ------------------------------ Stewart Smith stewartsmith at mac.com Ph: +61 4 3884 4332 ICQ: 6734154 http://www.flamingspork.com/ http://www.linux.org.au From tony at linuxworks.com.au Thu May 29 20:59:01 2003 From: tony at linuxworks.com.au (Tony Nugent) Date: Thu May 29 20:59:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] linux wins in Munich Message-ID: <200305291257.h4TCvXgK016456@gandalf.linuxworks.com.au.nospam> A change of subject with some good news: Microsoft down and out in Munich http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/30912.html Microsoft loses city of Munich deal to Linux http://www.forbes.com/home_europe/newswire/2003/05/28/rtr984204.html Cheers Tony From jdub at perkypants.org Thu May 29 21:20:01 2003 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Thu May 29 21:20:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Suggestion for the 'lugs' list In-Reply-To: References: <20030529061622.GD26623@lazarus> Message-ID: <20030529131837.GH26623@lazarus> > Perhaps some form of moderation for non-subscribers then? That way, a CLUG > concern can still be raised, without us seeing the rest of the content. I think it would be really important for CLUG to be involved 'properly'. We'll have to figure out a neat way of supporting CLUG's structure somehow. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "It's not sufficient to 'use simple words to explain things'. Things must actually *be* simple, which is much harder." - Martin Pool From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 30 16:14:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 30 16:14:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality: another 10% off today In-Reply-To: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200305291458.24458.chris@csamuel.org> Message-ID: <200305301617.58507.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 29 May 2003 12:58, Chris Samuel wrote: > Interestingly SCO's share price dropped by 24% (as can be seen on > SCO's own website currently - http://ir.sco.com/ - it shows them at > 6.60 down 24% - lowest was $5.85). Another 9% down today, but looks flat. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SCOX&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l Wonder what the bunch of trading was late Thursday/early Wednesday, just before the plunge? People who knew the dip was coming? Or a SCO director cashing in on the bloated price? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon at cyberknights.com.au Fri May 30 16:18:01 2003 From: leon at cyberknights.com.au (Leon Brooks) Date: Fri May 30 16:18:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO irrationality - Hazzardous In-Reply-To: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <60367088-91BD-11D7-9488-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <200305301620.47488.leon@cyberknights.com.au> On Thu, 29 May 2003 18:07, Stewart Smith wrote: > I'm starting to imagine John Cleese walking rather sillily around the > room while saying stuff about the SCO case and I'm laughing just as > hard as if he was talking about the budget for the Ministry of Silly > Walks. http://www.arie.org/doh/ It's not John, but maybe Bo and Luke will tickle yer funnybone enough? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From stewartsmith at mac.com Fri May 30 20:22:02 2003 From: stewartsmith at mac.com (Stewart Smith) Date: Fri May 30 20:22:02 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Debian 10th birthday celebrations (was Re: next meeting) In-Reply-To: <20030530095137.GC16703@regression.cyrius.com> Message-ID: <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 07:51 PM, Martin Michlmayr wrote: > * An?bal Monsalve Salazar [2003-05-30 > 08:58]: >>> FWIW, Japanese or Chinese sounds good to me. >> Would you like to set a date? > > I'm busy the next 3 weeks and then leaving to the States and Europe. > I will be back in August -- just in time to celebrate Debian's 10th > birthday which is on August 16th. We should definitely plan a party > for that (but if you want to go out for lunch/dinner in the meantime, > no problem). Maybe a synchronized nation-wide birthday bash could be organized? That could attract some more attention from the general community/media and raise our profile in Australia. There's also been the mention of doing something at LCA04 for a belated debian birthday do. Don't quote me on details though, i saw a dot point :) ------------ Stewart Smith Vice President, Linux Australia stewart at linux.org.au http://www.linux.org.au From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Fri May 30 20:36:01 2003 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Fri May 30 20:36:01 2003 Subject: [Linux-aus] Debian 10th birthday celebrations (was Re: next meeting) In-Reply-To: <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> References: <20030530095137.GC16703@regression.cyrius.com> <3863C6B9-9299-11D7-B416-00039346F142@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030530221152.307902d7.lloy0076@adam.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stewart, > There's also been the mention of doing something at LCA04 for a > belated debian birthday do. Don't quote me on details though, i saw a > dot point :) A belated Debian birthday at LCA-2004? /me ponders - -- He saw himslf as alive... And I saw him dead! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+11GQmk7m2JX6ki4RAiTjAKDSaSuQUFa2UMFveH6ro78TJEaOPgCfWVPV geeH+3cZkaGo7YkS0UGwhV4= =PG+a -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----