From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 12:44:09 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 12:44:09 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem Message-ID: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> (expanded from ): host mailhost.linux.org.au[103.84.224.25] said: 550 5.7.1 : Recipient address rejected: Message rejected due to: SPF fail - not authorized. Please see http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=mfrom;id=russell-sender at coker.com.au;ip=66.111.4.238;r=committee at lists.linux.org.au (in reply to RCPT TO command) I got the above when trying to send email to the council. The Linux Australia list server needs to whitelist 66.111.4.238 for SPF checks so that the council at linux.org.au forwarding address works correctly. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 12:45:45 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 12:45:45 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal Message-ID: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago. Yes we have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing audio etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. Make a contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS programs and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. Reduction can be by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or developing a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's $20 including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention on the web site. I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good for the community. What do you think? PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From info at petermoulding.com Mon Jan 1 13:18:40 2024 From: info at petermoulding.com (Info) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 13:18:40 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: #1 recommendation. As tested on 2 GB Raspberry Pi 4. Tackle Web browsers. Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads by heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. Make Noscript style controls standard built in. Firefox writes millions of little status updates to disk. The latest Firefox is unusable on a microSD card as a result. Switching to an SSD makes it just usable. There is a setting to reduce writes but it is hidden. Make it a standard click setting and the default for anything not running from NVMe. Ok, no need for $20. Buy me a coffee. They are almost $20 now. :-) #2 Replacing some utilities with C or Rust versions would help. I use a C framework style library to make the replacement easier. #3 Take the junk out of GTK to make it perform. That would make many program upgrades easy. My 16 GB machine easily handles a file cache for my 2 TB disks. Some of my 4 TB disks blow out the cache. 64 GB would be nice. On 1/1/24 12:45, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago. Yes we > have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing audio > etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. Make a > contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS programs > and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. Reduction can be > by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or developing > a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. > > Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's $20 > including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention on > the web site. > > I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good for > the community. > > What do you think? > > > PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. > From jwoithe at just42.net Mon Jan 1 14:13:32 2024 From: jwoithe at just42.net (Jonathan Woithe) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 13:43:32 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: Hi Russell On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 12:45:45PM +1100, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. ... > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. ... Thanks for making this suggestion. I'm sure that the issues you raised have been contemplated by many on this list over the years. My understanding of your message is that you would like the 2024 LA Council to consider the suggestion when Council is formed following the election. Is this your intention? Regards jonathan From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 14:14:26 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 14:14:26 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: > #1 recommendation. As tested on 2 GB Raspberry Pi 4. > > Tackle Web browsers. Yes, browsers have been very big for quite a while. Chrome (and presumably all derivatives) has recently followed the example of Firefox in freeing memory from unused tabs (I know someone who has over 2000 Firefox tabs on a system with 16G of RAM). > Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads by > heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. Make > Noscript style controls standard built in. What does NoScript break? We need documentation on this, and maybe some changes to defaults of OS installs. Does Firefox have a "managed mode" like Chrome/Chromium/Edge do so you can set a file in /etc to force install of extensions without the user being bothered? Building this in to web browsers would be worthy of a trophy. > Firefox writes millions of little status updates to disk. The latest Firefox > is unusable on a microSD card as a result. Switching to an SSD makes it > just usable. There is a setting to reduce writes but it is hidden. Make it > a standard click setting and the default for anything not running from > NVMe. Sounds like a great idea, could we do this at package install time? Could we have a distribution package named optimise-slow-storage to change the config of Firefox etc in this regard? > Ok, no need for $20. Buy me a coffee. They are almost $20 now. :-) ;) > #2 Replacing some utilities with C or Rust versions would help. I use a C > framework style library to make the replacement easier. Are there any frequently used utilities in slower language that are bottlenecks? Also we should just stop using some of the older programs. gzip for example makes no sense nowadays, for almost any data you have you can find another compression algorithm that is faster and better, a lot faster, or a lot better. > #3 Take the junk out of GTK to make it perform. That would make many program > upgrades easy. Sounds like a good thing to do. I don't know enough about GTK to know if it's actually bad or just has the usual level of overhead due to developers not needing to optimise for RAM in most cases. But going through the main large software stacks and looking for commonly used code that can be slightly reduced could give some real benefits. If you have 1000 graphical controls and save a few words on each that could potentially improve cache efficiency on some critical paths. > My 16 GB machine easily handles a file cache for my 2 TB disks. Some of my 4 > TB disks blow out the cache. 64 GB would be nice. What cache are you using? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 15:12:59 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 15:12:59 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem In-Reply-To: References: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> Message-ID: <6587620.G0QQBjFxQf@xev> On Monday, 1 January 2024 14:26:11 AEDT Russell Stuart wrote: > Do you know who 66.111.4.238 is? I don't, but then I don't know a lot > about LA's infrastructure. If it's not part of LA's SMTP network I > doubt anybody will be keen on whitelisting it. $ host 66.111.4.238 238.4.111.66.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer forward4- smtp.messagingengine.com. $ dig -t mx linux.org.au [...] ;; ANSWER SECTION: linux.org.au. 300 IN MX 20 in2- smtp.messagingengine.com. linux.org.au. 300 IN MX 10 in1- smtp.messagingengine.com. It's part of the infrastructure Linux Australia is using. Replying to the public list because I can't send mail to council. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 15:16:08 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 15:16:08 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: <3528983.V25eIC5XRa@xev> On Monday, 1 January 2024 14:13:32 AEDT Jonathan Woithe via linux-aus wrote: > On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 12:45:45PM +1100, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. ... > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. ... > > Thanks for making this suggestion. I'm sure that the issues you raised have > been contemplated by many on this list over the years. The issue would be apparent to many people. Whether many people have contemplated any solution other than just buying bigger hardware is unknown to me. > My understanding of your message is that you would like the 2024 LA Council > to consider the suggestion when Council is formed following the election. > Is this your intention? If we are in a formal shutdown phase before the election then I guess that the new council would be involved. But also the organisers of Everything Open 2024 can consider it. We have had programming contests at LCAs in the past so there is precedent for awards for getting things done during LCA. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From brendan at halley.net.au Mon Jan 1 15:18:14 2024 From: brendan at halley.net.au (Brendan Halley) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 15:18:14 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: Hi Russell, I've seen the issue of memory bloat discussed many times by lots of people, all with different priorities. The consensus at the end of the conversation is always why waste part of someone's life fixing the problem when memory is so cheap. Is your idea focused on the current state of affairs or more worried about scaling issues in years to come if RAM prices increase/there aren't as many technical developments in that area? Just want to be clear, I think any optimisations to improve efficiency are good, just thinking from a realistic point of view. Brendan On Mon, Jan 1, 2024 at 12:46?PM Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago. Yes > we > have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing > audio > etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. Make a > contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS > programs > and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. Reduction > can be > by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or > developing > a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. > > Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's > $20 > including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention > on > the web site. > > I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good > for > the community. > > What do you think? > > > PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From miles at m0les.com Mon Jan 1 15:30:40 2024 From: miles at m0les.com (Miles Goodhew) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 15:30:40 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Reminder: Linux Australia election nominations close in 6 days In-Reply-To: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> References: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> Message-ID: <45bb4db4-87d3-47e1-852a-b1093846da18@app.fastmail.com> Hi all, This is just a new-year's reminder that Linux Australia's (LA's) Council election nominations close on the 6th of January. There are currently 6 people nominating for 7 positions, so we need at least one more candidate to be able to fill all positions when the election opens. If you've ever felt like getting involved in LA or any of the conferences it supports, I'd like to invite you to consider nominating for the LA Council. The three Ordinary Council Member (OCM) positions are great places to get started, if you're a first-timer or you don't feel you have the time or experience for the other 4 positions with identified responsibilities. It happens that the OCM position is the one there's effectively a short-fall for (presuming the Vice-President role gets filled by one of the two people also nominating for OCM). If you *are* interested in nominating, note that the nomination process is a *little* convoluted, you have to follow these 3 main steps: 1. NOMINATE for the position by logging-into the https://linux.org.au website, going to the member area -> elections -> view/submit 2024 nominations, press the "submit nomination" button and fill-in the form. Typically you'd nominate yourself, but you can nominate others (just try to clear it with them first) 2. Get a SECOND for your nomination by someone other than the nominator or nominee. People do this by pressing the NOMINATE button under the individual nominee on the election page (then filling-in the form). If you don't have a second, I'm happy to do so (as long as you seem genuine and capable) - just get in touch. 3. ACCEPT the nomination - This is the step that has tripped-up many people in the past (including yours truly). The nominee does this by pressing the ACCEPT NOMINATION button, which is up the top of the election page, near where there SUBMIT NOMINATION button should be. Once the nominee has accepted the nomination, their candidate status should show as "Accepted". Now they're eligible for the upcoming election. So please have a think about joining the LA council and jumping through all those hoops. Disclosures: * I'm not currently on the LA council, but I have been in the past * I am also nominating for the OCM positions in 2024 * I personally know all the 6 nominees we have currently (and I recommend them all) M0les. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 16:30:46 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 16:30:46 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: <4279046.mogB4TqSGs@xev> On Monday, 1 January 2024 15:18:14 AEDT Brendan Halley via linux-aus wrote: > I've seen the issue of memory bloat discussed many times by lots of people, > all with different priorities. The consensus at the end of the conversation > is always why waste part of someone's life fixing the problem when memory > is so cheap. DDR sticks are cheap on ebay, but that's only a small portion of the issue. Laptops with soldered RAM are common particularly in the cheap market segment and the light market segment. My preferred laptop is the Thinkpad Carbon X1 which comes with 8G soldered on (at moderate expense) or 16G soldered (at brutal expense). I could afford a laptop with 16G of RAM due to having better than average knowledge of hardware allowing me to select a good option on ebay and get it cheaply repaired if it happens to not be as good as hoped. The typical user would go to Officeworks and pay $250 for a laptop with 4G, $400 for one with 8G, or $800 for one with 16G. The cheap laptops advertised often have as little as 4G of RAM with no apparent option to upgrade. I have not disassembled such laptops to see if that's really the case so I have to trust the specs. For the laptops with socketed RAM the RAM in larger DIMM sizes is not cheap and even the large sizes aren't that large. DDR3 SODIMMs on ebay seem to be only up to 8G in size, so a 2 socket DDR3 laptop can only have 16G - which still has performance problems now! Windows 11 is incompatible with a lot of old hardware. Linux running well on such older machines makes it a free software AND hardware option. Even when RAM is relatively cheap and available (such as for older desktops) going from working with existing hardware to needing an upgrade is a significant cost increase. Systems like the Raspberry Pi fill a market niche for low end workstations and there are a variety of other uses such as the cases that can make a Raspberry Pi into a laptop. The maximum RAM available for a Raspberry Pi is 8G and the vast majority of devices shipped have 2G or less. I believe that a phone connected to USB-C is a viable general purpose computer but one of the main issues is the fact that common devices like the PinePhonePro only have 4G of RAM. > Is your idea focused on the current state of affairs or more worried about > scaling issues in years to come if RAM prices increase/there aren't as many > technical developments in that area? Instead of raising this now when there's a large amount of hardware with 4G/8G suffering performance issues I could have raised it 9 years ago when it was hardware with 2G/4G or 18 years ago when it was hardware with 1G/2G. If we don't do anything to address this issue now then we will eventually have 16G or 32G systems having performance issues. There are real uses for more RAM, using RAM can cache calculations or disk data to allow large RAM to compensate for storage or CPU bottlenecks. But sometimes a better option is to rely on fast hardware instead of complex caching, for example the search algorithms used in old versions of kmail on typical modern laptop hardware would outperform what current versions of kmail do with a mysql database on older laptops that have spinning media. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From web at polynate.net Mon Jan 1 17:17:14 2024 From: web at polynate.net (Nathan Bailey) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 17:17:14 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <4279046.mogB4TqSGs@xev> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <4279046.mogB4TqSGs@xev> Message-ID: I like this idea. In the early days of IT, optimisation for hardware seemed a waste of time in the light of Moore's Law. But we continue to deploy to smaller form factors (smart watches, smart rings, smart water bottles, ...), so I think there is merit in looking at RAM/disk/CPU-based optimisations. In terms of "wasted effort" - some IT-capable people aren't skilled or experienced enough to tackle deeper IT problems, but "shallow" optimisations like those suggested by Peter Moulding are the kinds of solutions that interns, undergrads or even non-traditional IT people could explore. And winning a prize for successfully delivering a significant optimisation could be a real differentiator for those looking to land a job (or promotion), and a fun recognition for those just doing it as something on the side. Russell - how would you propose this being structured? (ie. who assesses using what criteria in what timeframe?) -N PS: Also, nationally/internationally-selected prizes are a great way to get press attention if developing a higher profile for LA/LCA is desirable... On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 16:31, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > On Monday, 1 January 2024 15:18:14 AEDT Brendan Halley via linux-aus wrote: > > I've seen the issue of memory bloat discussed many times by lots of > people, > > all with different priorities. The consensus at the end of the > conversation > > is always why waste part of someone's life fixing the problem when memory > > is so cheap. > > DDR sticks are cheap on ebay, but that's only a small portion of the issue. > > Laptops with soldered RAM are common particularly in the cheap market > segment > and the light market segment. My preferred laptop is the Thinkpad Carbon > X1 > which comes with 8G soldered on (at moderate expense) or 16G soldered (at > brutal expense). > > I could afford a laptop with 16G of RAM due to having better than average > knowledge of hardware allowing me to select a good option on ebay and get > it > cheaply repaired if it happens to not be as good as hoped. The typical > user > would go to Officeworks and pay $250 for a laptop with 4G, $400 for one > with > 8G, or $800 for one with 16G. > > The cheap laptops advertised often have as little as 4G of RAM with no > apparent option to upgrade. I have not disassembled such laptops to see > if > that's really the case so I have to trust the specs. > > For the laptops with socketed RAM the RAM in larger DIMM sizes is not > cheap > and even the large sizes aren't that large. DDR3 SODIMMs on ebay seem to > be > only up to 8G in size, so a 2 socket DDR3 laptop can only have 16G - which > still has performance problems now! > > Windows 11 is incompatible with a lot of old hardware. Linux running well > on > such older machines makes it a free software AND hardware option. Even > when > RAM is relatively cheap and available (such as for older desktops) going > from > working with existing hardware to needing an upgrade is a significant cost > increase. > > Systems like the Raspberry Pi fill a market niche for low end workstations > and > there are a variety of other uses such as the cases that can make a > Raspberry > Pi into a laptop. The maximum RAM available for a Raspberry Pi is 8G and > the > vast majority of devices shipped have 2G or less. > > I believe that a phone connected to USB-C is a viable general purpose > computer > but one of the main issues is the fact that common devices like the > PinePhonePro only have 4G of RAM. > > > Is your idea focused on the current state of affairs or more worried > about > > scaling issues in years to come if RAM prices increase/there aren't as > many > > technical developments in that area? > > Instead of raising this now when there's a large amount of hardware with > 4G/8G > suffering performance issues I could have raised it 9 years ago when it > was > hardware with 2G/4G or 18 years ago when it was hardware with 1G/2G. > > If we don't do anything to address this issue now then we will eventually > have > 16G or 32G systems having performance issues. > > There are real uses for more RAM, using RAM can cache calculations or disk > data to allow large RAM to compensate for storage or CPU bottlenecks. But > sometimes a better option is to rely on fast hardware instead of complex > caching, for example the search algorithms used in old versions of kmail > on > typical modern laptop hardware would outperform what current versions of > kmail > do with a mysql database on older laptops that have spinning media. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 1 19:15:16 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2024 19:15:16 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <4279046.mogB4TqSGs@xev> Message-ID: <2678287.KRxA6XjA2N@cupcakke> On Monday, 1 January 2024 17:17:14 AEDT Nathan Bailey via linux-aus wrote: > I like this idea. In the early days of IT, optimisation for hardware seemed > a waste of time in the light of Moore's Law. But we continue to deploy to > smaller form factors (smart watches, smart rings, smart water bottles, > ...), so I think there is merit in looking at RAM/disk/CPU-based > optimisations. I think we have always had such issues. I recall talk of an 8088 port of Linux for some low end use. > In terms of "wasted effort" - some IT-capable people aren't skilled or > experienced enough to tackle deeper IT problems, but "shallow" > optimisations like those suggested by Peter Moulding are the kinds of > solutions that interns, undergrads or even non-traditional IT people could > explore. I think that "we have this specific problem so lets find an optimisation that will just deal with it" can be a really hard problem to solve, much harder than "find some random case for optimisation that matches your skills". Some of these problems are really hard. I mentioned a hypothetical example of saving a few words for a window control, the code for that is really difficult to dig into. I have idly looked into the KDE code when Plasmashell and kwin were crashing on me and gave it up as too hard. > And winning a prize for successfully delivering a significant optimisation > could be a real differentiator for those looking to land a job (or > promotion), and a fun recognition for those just doing it as something on > the side. Absolutely. > Russell - how would you propose this being structured? (ie. who assesses > using what criteria in what timeframe?) We aren't judging the Olynpics here, we don't need a gold medal and extremely accurate measurements of the results. Just pick a bunch of results that look good and award trophies and maybe pick a bunch more for merit awards without traphies. Just get a bunch of the people who frequently give lectures at LCA and similar conferences to quickly look at the submissions and have a rough consensus. Also if submissions are early enough the upstream projects can assess them, EG if I reviewed a patch related to SE Linux and judged it to be good you could move straight to the issue of merit or trophy. Maybe have a rule of people above a certain level of fame in the community aren't eligible for trophies but for merit awards. > PS: Also, nationally/internationally-selected prizes are a great way to get > press attention if developing a higher profile for LA/LCA is desirable... I don't know if it will give more attention to EO, but it will definitely have the potential of giving more attention to people in the early stages of their careers. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From jonhall80 at comcast.net Tue Jan 2 10:18:56 2024 From: jonhall80 at comcast.net (jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 18:18:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> Brendan, I appreciate your comment, but let me add some real history about this: [For those of you not interested in historical discussion of this, you can skip this section] In the early 1990s DEC had the OSF/1 based release of OSF/1 Alpha. In its initial release it needed 64 Megabytes of Main memory in order to boot and run. This was declared to be too much main memory to be required on a SERVER CLASS machine. Marketing wanted it reduced to 32 Megabytes. Now you have to understand the underlying requirements of this. First of all, most customers did not use DEC semiconductor memory, they used National Semiconductor or other RAM, but they needed to have the first 32 Mbytes of memory in order to allow the DEC service people to truthfully install and qualify an "All DEC" system. If we required 64 Mbytes of DEC main memory to install and qualify it, it might have increased the cost of the "All DEC" system by thousands of dollars. By reducing the amount of DEC main memory to "only" 32 MBytes, the customer could then buy the much cheaper National Semiconductor memory to fill out their system. So the DEC engineers spent an entire YEAR squeezing libraries and the kernel, etc. down to the point where the system would boot and load in 32 MBytes. But we did not anticipate the next thing. [Here the people not interested in history can continue] The DEC OSF/1 Alpha system reduced from 64 MBytes to 32 MBytes actually benchmarked as 7% FASTER than before all this work was done. It was faster because more of the runtime set lived in the cache of the system and processor. Reading the program text coming off disk was more compact, and took up less pages of the runtime set. More of the instructions stayed in cache. The DEC OSF/1 kernel did not page, so it had to stay in main memory. But that did not mean it had to stay in the CACHE of that main memory or the processor. And if the kernel HAD to stay in levels of main memory cache, that left less space for actively used programs, including the shell, the X-server, etc. But it was not just the size of the code. There was a lot of work done on "locality of reference", trying to get the next instructions on the same page of cache as the last ones. Not every processor has a lot of cache. Some have little or no cache, but they still do demand-paged virtual memory and compete with other processes for the space the system has. I would also propose that we talk about "performance". This contest so far about memory performance, but should also be about processor performance. I hear the same talks about "why are we so interested in 'performance'" when processors are so fast (and memory is so cheap) I respond back that we care about performance because we do not want o charge our phones three times a day or that Google might only need 9000 servers instead of 10,000 servers or use "only" 900 megabytes of electricity instead of 1 Gigabyte of electricity (and less power needed for cooling). Often I hear the reasons given for these inefficiencies because of "virtualization". WRONG. Virtualization might actually help improve some of these issues, but it has to be virtualization done correctly, and we may have to make tradeoffs, but we should be doing these in a reasonable way. Warmest regards, maddog > On 12/31/2023 11:18 PM EST Brendan Halley via linux-aus wrote: > > > Hi Russell, > > I've seen the issue of memory bloat discussed many times by lots of people, all with different priorities. The consensus at the end of the conversation is always why waste part of someone's life fixing the problem when memory is so cheap. > > Is your idea focused on the current state of affairs or more worried about scaling issues in years to come if RAM prices increase/there aren't as many technical developments in that area? > > Just want to be clear, I think any optimisations to improve efficiency are good, just thinking from a realistic point of view. > > Brendan > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2024 at 12:46?PM Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > > aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago. Yes we > > have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing audio > > etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. Make a > > contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS programs > > and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. Reduction can be > > by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or developing > > a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. > > > > Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's $20 > > including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention on > > the web site. > > > > I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good for > > the community. > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. > > > > -- > > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at stuart.id.au Tue Jan 2 11:23:27 2024 From: russell at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 10:23:27 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> Message-ID: <90f7a83e-9a22-4fef-8120-e1426654857e@stuart.id.au> On 2/1/24 09:18, jon.maddog.hall--- via linux-aus wrote: > The DEC OSF/1 Alpha system reduced from 64 MBytes to 32 MBytes > actually benchmarked as 7% FASTER than before all this work was > done. This rings true, but nonetheless attempts to save on code size are swimming against the tide today. We seem to be in the process of abandoning sharing code in libraries via DLL's. I think this was popularised by Google, when they statically linked their binaries. It makes a lot of sense in an environment when you give each task it's own isolated VPS, each VPS sharing the same kernel. Its easier (and in my experience more robust) than sharing a docker container. It's now moving into our languages. The increased CPU speed has allowed the rise of interpreted languages. They are not only slow CPU wise, multiple web pages in a browser generally means multiple copies of the shared javascript libraries. Newer compiled languages like Go, Swift and Rust all favour statically compiled binaries. Rust in particular is wedded to it because of it's love of monomorphization. Gradually these new languages are worming their way onto out Desktop machines. But unlike Google's VPS's, I'm pretty sure statically linked binaries are a net negative there. It's not only bloat (think: every program contains it's own copy of libc). It's when a bug is found in libc, the distro has to recompile and redistribute every binary that uses it. Security updates become more like what you see on phones: gigabytes, every time. Maybe that's possible. But when every program was forced to share one libc, it meant there was one version of libc on the system. When that isn't enforced programmers tend to believe it's their right to depend on a particular version of every library they use. We see the attitude in most prominently in Javascript, but Rust's beautifully crafted versioning system encourages the same thing. But from a distro's point of view this is a disaster. Instead of tracking security flaws in one version of a library, they now have to track them in every version of the library from the year dot. I doubt that is possible. So this change to "memory's so cheap I can treat it as free" ends up impacting a lot more than just the memory, speed, and power consumption. From john at johndalton.info Tue Jan 2 11:24:49 2024 From: john at johndalton.info (John Dalton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 11:24:49 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> Message-ID: Thanks, I love this story (and the history lesson!) I spend a lot of time working with folks using database servers (almost exclusively PostgreSQL these days, for me) and often run into a some variation of the same question, usually "we don't really have time to optimise it now, when we can fix it by just throwing more RAM at the problem". All the old wisdom still applies here, and it turns out that paying attention to stuff like what is indexed, which columns are stored next to each other, how they're written to disk and how it's all being cached still matters. Even if you're dealing with *hundreds* of gigabytes of RAM, what you're storing there can have a huge impact on performance. I am way out of touch on desktop stuff but I love the idea of making this into a competition. As Russell says in another message, this work matters because we have existing, usable hardware held back from certain tasks mostly because of growing RAM requirements - and *everyone* benefits from performance improvements made to hit some specific RAM usage budget. While I won't make it to EO this year, in the open source spirit I put my hand up to help evaluate entries if someone decides to make this happen. J. On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 10:20?AM jon.maddog.hall--- via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Brendan, > > I appreciate your comment, but let me add some real history about this: > > [For those of you not interested in historical discussion of this, you can > skip this section] > > In the early 1990s DEC had the OSF/1 based release of OSF/1 Alpha. In > its initial release it needed 64 Megabytes of Main memory in order to boot > and run. This was declared to be too much main memory to be required on a > SERVER CLASS machine. Marketing wanted it reduced to 32 Megabytes. > > Now you have to understand the underlying requirements of this. First of > all, most customers did not use DEC semiconductor memory, they used > National Semiconductor or other RAM, but they needed to have the first 32 > Mbytes of memory in order to allow the DEC service people to truthfully > install and qualify an "All DEC" system. If we required 64 Mbytes of DEC > main memory to install and qualify it, it might have increased the cost of > the "All DEC" system by thousands of dollars. > > By reducing the amount of DEC main memory to "only" 32 MBytes, the > customer could then buy the much cheaper National Semiconductor memory to > fill out their system. > > So the DEC engineers spent an entire YEAR squeezing libraries and the > kernel, etc. down to the point where the system would boot and load in 32 > MBytes. But we did not anticipate the next thing. > > [Here the people not interested in history can continue] > > The DEC OSF/1 Alpha system reduced from 64 MBytes to 32 MBytes actually > benchmarked as 7% FASTER than before all this work was done. > > It was faster because more of the runtime set lived in the cache of the > system and processor. Reading the program text coming off disk was more > compact, and took up less pages of the runtime set. More of the > instructions stayed in cache. The DEC OSF/1 kernel did not page, so it > had to stay in main memory. But that did not mean it had to stay in the > CACHE of that main memory or the processor. And if the kernel HAD to stay > in levels of main memory cache, that left less space for actively used > programs, including the shell, the X-server, etc. > > But it was not just the size of the code. There was a lot of work done > on "locality of reference", trying to get the next instructions on the same > page of cache as the last ones. > > Not every processor has a lot of cache. Some have little or no cache, > but they still do demand-paged virtual memory and compete with other > processes for the space the system has. > > I would also propose that we talk about "performance". This contest so > far about memory performance, but should also be about processor > performance. I hear the same talks about "why are we so interested in > 'performance'" when processors are so fast (and memory is so cheap) I > respond back that we care about performance because we do not want o charge > our phones three times a day or that Google might only need 9000 servers > instead of 10,000 servers or use "only" 900 megabytes of electricity > instead of 1 Gigabyte of electricity (and less power needed for cooling). > > Often I hear the reasons given for these inefficiencies because of > "virtualization". WRONG. Virtualization might actually help improve some > of these issues, but it has to be virtualization done correctly, and we may > have to make tradeoffs, but we should be doing these in a reasonable way. > > Warmest regards, > > maddog > > On 12/31/2023 11:18 PM EST Brendan Halley via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > > Hi Russell, > > I've seen the issue of memory bloat discussed many times by lots of > people, all with different priorities. The consensus at the end of the > conversation is always why waste part of someone's life fixing the problem > when memory is so cheap. > > [snip] > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at blemings.org Tue Jan 2 12:06:13 2024 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 12:06:13 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> Message-ID: <5c21e29f-aba8-444d-bd84-ae1e1b446412@blemings.org> On 2/1/24 11:24, John Dalton via linux-aus wrote: > Thanks, I love this story (and the history lesson!) Hear hear! :) > > I spend a lot of time working with folks using database?servers > (almost exclusively PostgreSQL these days, for me) and often run into > a some?variation of the same question, usually "we don't really have > time to optimise it now, when we can fix it by just throwing more RAM > at the problem". All the old wisdom?still applies here, and it turns > out that paying attention to stuff like what is indexed, which columns > are stored next to each other, how they're written to disk and how > it's all being cached still matters. Even if you're dealing with > *hundreds* of gigabytes of RAM, what you're storing there can have a > huge impact on performance. > > I am way out of touch on desktop stuff but I love the idea of making > this into a competition. As Russell says in another message, this work > matters because we have existing, usable hardware held back from > certain tasks mostly because of growing RAM requirements - and > *everyone* benefits from performance improvements made to hit some > specific RAM usage?budget. > > While I won't make it to EO this year, in the open source spirit I put > my hand up to help evaluate entries if someone decides to make this > happen. I'm sadly in this camp too - unable to make EO due to a completely immovable clash, bummed I won't get to see folks But I will be around at home and able to assist with evaulating entries if that's helpful! Cheers, Hugh > > J. > > > On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 10:20?AM jon.maddog.hall--- via linux-aus > wrote: > > Brendan, > > I appreciate your comment, but let me add some real history about > this: > > [For those of you not interested in historical discussion of this, > you can skip this section] > > In the early 1990s DEC had the OSF/1 based release of OSF/1 > Alpha.?? In its initial release it needed 64 Megabytes of Main > memory in order to boot and run. This was declared to be too much > main memory to be required on a SERVER CLASS machine.?? Marketing > wanted it reduced to 32 Megabytes. > > Now you have to understand the underlying requirements of this.?? > First of all, most customers did not use DEC semiconductor memory, > they used National Semiconductor or other RAM, but they needed to > have the first 32 Mbytes of memory in order to allow the DEC > service people to truthfully install and qualify an "All DEC" > system.?? If we required 64 Mbytes of DEC main memory to install > and qualify it, it might have increased the cost of the "All DEC" > system by thousands of dollars. > > By reducing the amount of DEC main memory to "only" 32 MBytes, the > customer could then buy the much cheaper National Semiconductor > memory to fill out their system. > > So the DEC engineers spent an entire YEAR squeezing libraries and > the kernel, etc. down to the point where the system would boot and > load in 32 MBytes.?? But we did not anticipate the next thing. > > [Here the people not interested in history can continue] > > The DEC OSF/1 Alpha system reduced from 64 MBytes to 32 MBytes > actually benchmarked as 7% FASTER than before all this work was done. > > It was faster because more of the runtime set lived in the cache > of the system and processor.?? Reading the program text coming off > disk was more compact, and took up less pages of the runtime > set.?? More of the instructions stayed in cache.?? The DEC OSF/1 > kernel did not page, so it had to stay in main memory.? But that > did not mean it had to stay in the CACHE of that main memory or > the processor.?? And if the kernel HAD to stay in levels of main > memory cache, that left less space for actively used programs, > including the shell, the X-server, etc. > > But it was not just the size of the code.?? There was a lot of > work done on "locality of reference", trying to get the next > instructions on the same page of cache as the last ones. > > Not every processor has a lot of cache.?? Some have little or no > cache, but they still do demand-paged virtual memory and compete > with other processes for the space the system has. > > I would also propose that we talk about "performance". This > contest so far about memory performance, but should also be about > processor performance.?? I hear the same talks about "why are we > so interested in 'performance'" when processors are so fast (and > memory is so cheap) I respond back that we care about performance > because we do not want o charge our phones three times a day or > that Google might only need 9000 servers instead of 10,000 servers > or use "only" 900 megabytes of electricity instead of 1 Gigabyte > of electricity (and less power needed for cooling). > > Often I hear the reasons given for these inefficiencies because of > "virtualization".? WRONG. Virtualization might actually help > improve some of these issues, but it has to be virtualization done > correctly, and we may have to make tradeoffs, but we should be > doing these in a reasonable way. > > Warmest regards, > > maddog >> On 12/31/2023 11:18 PM EST Brendan Halley via linux-aus >> wrote: >> Hi Russell, >> I've seen the issue of memory bloat discussed many times by lots >> of people, all with different priorities. The consensus?at the >> end of the conversation is always why waste part of someone's >> life fixing the problem when memory is so cheap. > >> [snip] > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jan 2 12:24:56 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 12:24:56 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <20af6c21-401f-47d7-9e12-7455156f0bc5@app.fastmail.com> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <2678287.KRxA6XjA2N@cupcakke> <20af6c21-401f-47d7-9e12-7455156f0bc5@app.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <1763207.X513TT2pbd@xev> On Tuesday, 2 January 2024 07:39:03 AEDT Gryllida wrote: > * personally i have not more than 4 tabs open at any given time, it helps There aren't many people nowadays who can do that. For me a basic Google search involves at least 4 tabs. > websites, perhaps https://github.com/laurentb/weboob i've been meaning to I doubt the technical merits of a program that's designed around breast jokes. On Tuesday, 2 January 2024 10:52:55 AEDT Mitch Davis wrote: > For auditing where time goes when booting a system, there's a tool > (actually, it's more of an ecosystem that's arisen) called bootchart that > shows all the processes that get run, when these processes get run, the > dependencies between them, and where CPU is being spent. > > https://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/bootchart systemd-analyze is goot for most systems. > Is there an equivalent tool which will show a break down of how memory has > been allocated on a running system? Such a tool would show where the most > gains are to be made. ps, top, etc all show it. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From jonhall80 at comcast.net Tue Jan 2 13:10:41 2024 From: jonhall80 at comcast.net (jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 21:10:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <90f7a83e-9a22-4fef-8120-e1426654857e@stuart.id.au> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> <90f7a83e-9a22-4fef-8120-e1426654857e@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <1513650501.1438019.1704161441177@connect.xfinity.com> Russell, I was once a beekeeper. No single bee makes an entire cell in the honeycomb. Each bee deposits a bit of wax, pinches it with its mandibles, and moves on. Eventually an entire cell is finished, a cell that makes the honeycomb one of the most perfect structures for storage capacity, strength and economical use of materials (wax) in nature. [As before, people not interested in history can stop reading here.] When the DEC Alpha was being created it was one of the first commercial truly 64-bit systems to run Unix. DEC concentrated on the scientific/engineering market, so an efficient libm(3) meant a lot to our customer base. DEC hired a mathematician to optimize libm(3) to make it the fastest in the Unix world, and it was. Consequently DEC did not supply the source code to libm to our customer base, in fear that DEC's competitors would see how the optimizations worked and therefore make a library that was faster than DEC's. When the Linux/Alpha port was happening the developers wanted DEC to give them the sources to libm(3), but DEC refused. DEC was willing to build a binary for Linux/Alpha, but not give the Linux community the sources. I was caught in the middle, between DEC's management and the Linux community. Finally I emailed the community saying "If you are such hot-shot programmers, why don't you create a BETTER libm?" Silence from the Internet. Then a few days later an email message: "sin is 2% faster". A couple of days later "cos is 1.5% faster". Subroutine by subroutine the libm routines on Alpha were reprogrammed to be faster than DEC's. It was then I began to realize the power of the community. [End of DEC history] The point to all of this is that I would not expect a wave of a wand and all of the code will be smaller and faster. /* So this change to "memory's so cheap I can treat it as free" ends up impacting a lot more than just the memory, speed, and power consumption.*/ I agree, the impact may be a lot of things, and affect a lot of systems. However each small improvement (like that of the honeybee) might build into a much larger improvement (the honeycomb), or at least slow down the growth of inefficient code. Just focusing on the problem might help. Without focus people will not pay attention to the issue. There are other examples than libm. Remember when Linus forced the re-write of the I/O system to make it much more structured, and cleaned up all the "cruft" in the device drivers? We lost a lot of redundant code in the device drivers. Commercial companies do not often do this, because they are focusing their engineers on new features to satisfy customers. FOSS can do it all....new features that are efficient and make the old code more efficient. I think Russell Coker's suggestion has merit. I think the hardest part will be to figure out the "reward" system, even if the rewards are small. I could also see having people who consistently contributed to this effort be promoted to "hacker" (remember the origin of the word "hacker") and perhaps earn a sponsored speaker's position at the Australian Linux Conference. Who are the judges and how are the rewards given? I could envision a whole undergraduate curriculum class in computer science on "optimizations", with term projects given to optimize FOSS code. Warmest regards, maddog > On 01/01/2024 7:23 PM EST Russell Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > > > On 2/1/24 09:18, jon.maddog.hall--- via linux-aus wrote: > > The DEC OSF/1 Alpha system reduced from 64 MBytes to 32 MBytes > > actually benchmarked as 7% FASTER than before all this work was > > done. > > This rings true, but nonetheless attempts to save on code size are > swimming against the tide today. We seem to be in the process of > abandoning sharing code in libraries via DLL's. > > I think this was popularised by Google, when they statically linked > their binaries. It makes a lot of sense in an environment when you give > each task it's own isolated VPS, each VPS sharing the same kernel. Its > easier (and in my experience more robust) than sharing a docker container. > > It's now moving into our languages. The increased CPU speed has allowed > the rise of interpreted languages. They are not only slow CPU wise, > multiple web pages in a browser generally means multiple copies of the > shared javascript libraries. Newer compiled languages like Go, Swift > and Rust all favour statically compiled binaries. Rust in particular is > wedded to it because of it's love of monomorphization. > > Gradually these new languages are worming their way onto out Desktop > machines. But unlike Google's VPS's, I'm pretty sure statically linked > binaries are a net negative there. It's not only bloat (think: every > program contains it's own copy of libc). It's when a bug is found in > libc, the distro has to recompile and redistribute every binary that > uses it. Security updates become more like what you see on phones: > gigabytes, every time. > > Maybe that's possible. But when every program was forced to share one > libc, it meant there was one version of libc on the system. When that > isn't enforced programmers tend to believe it's their right to depend on > a particular version of every library they use. We see the attitude in > most prominently in Javascript, but Rust's beautifully crafted > versioning system encourages the same thing. But from a distro's point > of view this is a disaster. Instead of tracking security flaws in one > version of a library, they now have to track them in every version of > the library from the year dot. I doubt that is possible. > > So this change to "memory's so cheap I can treat it as free" ends up > impacting a lot more than just the memory, speed, and power consumption. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From jwoithe at just42.net Tue Jan 2 13:28:03 2024 From: jwoithe at just42.net (Jonathan Woithe) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 12:58:03 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <3528983.V25eIC5XRa@xev> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <3528983.V25eIC5XRa@xev> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 03:16:08PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > On Monday, 1 January 2024 14:13:32 AEDT Jonathan Woithe via linux-aus wrote: > > My understanding of your message is that you would like the 2024 LA Council > > to consider the suggestion when Council is formed following the election. > > Is this your intention? > > If we are in a formal shutdown phase before the election then I guess that > the new council would be involved. But also the organisers of Everything > Open 2024 can consider it. We have had programming contests at LCAs in > the past so there is precedent for awards for getting things done during > LCA. Thanks for confirming your thoughts, and to everyone who has provided suggestions thus far. Please keep the ideas flowing. It is true that the LA Council is effectively in caretaker mode in the lead up to the election. Once constituted, I expect the 2024 Council will consider the ideas raised in this thread and see what might be practical. If re-elected to Council I will make sure it is raised (although I expect this to happen as a matter of course). As far as the reward is concerned, I *personally* would be less in favour of physical trophies and more supportive of a small monetary award. To me, spending $20 on a trophy that sits on a shelf gathering dust is not all that practical. However, I am only one voice and in any case this is detail that can be worked through in due course, perhaps by a small team of people formed to run the contest if that's where things end up. Regards jonathan From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Tue Jan 2 15:46:37 2024 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 14:46:37 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <1513650501.1438019.1704161441177@connect.xfinity.com> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> <90f7a83e-9a22-4fef-8120-e1426654857e@stuart.id.au> <1513650501.1438019.1704161441177@connect.xfinity.com> Message-ID: <4e3e1dbc-e98f-45ce-8627-26b2492b8bd9@stuart.id.au> On 2/1/24 12:10, jon.maddog.hall--- via linux-aus wrote: > Just focusing on the problem might help. Without focus people will not pay attention to the issue. To be clear I wasn't arguing against the proposal. I was (perhaps badly) trying to point out that the issue has a much broader impact. To me those impacts are more important than the one Russell raised. But it is true I find it hard to get excited about RAM usage when, in what seems like a just a few years ago I was amazed PC's were zooming through the 32 bit barrier, yet now I carry a battery power device with 64bits of address space, more connectivity, screen resolution, removable storage than those PC's. Granted, today's problematic resource usage can't be relied upon to disappear tomorrow forever I guess. But I'm happy to delay worrying about it until it does happen. What concerns me now is the library version proliferation thing I mentioned earlier. And the thing that replaced a 3270 (the browser) is so bloated, Debian with the resources of a 1000 developers can't maintain it. And at the risk of starting a flame war, if I want to use systemd as in init system (and you'll get no argument from me that isn't a very fine init system), I am forced to compile 1.9 million lines of intertwined code that isn't related. These are problems created by my engineering discipline, and must be solved by us. We just need the motivation to do it. It is going to need a *lot* of motivation. Debian has almost religious level objection to taking code thrown over the wall, but it was forced to do it with Chromium and Firefox. I suspect it won't come from resource utilisation, partially because there are already a lot of small, open source projects dedicated to that role out there. The prime motivation of Alpine Linux is just that. What the motivation may come from is the other problems I mentioned. Security in particular. There will be a lot of bugs lurking in the lines of systemd you don't use, and for me that is most of the 1.9 million of them. If that isn't motivation enough the EU New Product Liability Directive [0] may do the trick. I'm pretty sure it's near impossible to make these large non-decomposable systems bug free, which in turn implies they can't be made secure either. Unfortunately I'm also pretty sure them being decomposable mega projects means debloating these systems in the way Russell wants to is near mission impossible. (I'm sorry, but re-writing sin and cos doesn't seem comparable.) But I also think the world at large isn't going to give up on wanting software that works and can be relied upon to not take down a fair chunk of a country's telecommunications network. [1] So, it's a rock hits a hard place. Perhaps the Queen Mary hits Norfolk Island is a better metaphor, because these software projects are huge and cornerstones of the current internet, so nothing is going to change course quickly. Personally, I'd give up on the Queen Mary entirely. Changing its course is just too hard. I'd start with the smaller projects one person can fit their head around, and build a system that suits your needs from them. That seems doable. Put the rest in a sandbox VM (if we can ever figure out how to build such a thing), and put up with the resource usage until we an replace it. [0] From what I can tell, the EU New Product Liability Directive is mostly about defanging software shrink wrap licences. They will not be able to disclaim liability any more. You can't disclaim liability for a toaster that electrocutes someone from a design flaw, so I don't know why software has got away with the same thing for so long. The implications for open source software is for a supplier to be liable you have to have bought the toaster from them, and then the toaster must have killed you. Kinda - you get the idea. Software killing someone who downloaded it from a public repository without your knowledge doesn't fit the bill no matter how much it may seem like it should. But the new law still can impact open source developers. If for example you were a log4j developer that earned money on the side by fixing bugs in it, then the dollar amounts of damage done makes my eyes water and you maybe just made yourself liable for it. Once this passes, I wouldn?t do that sort of thing without getting professional indemnity first. [1] Granted, we all know that was more of an operations issue. But it sure raised a lot of eyebrows, as in called before a senate committee for a "please explain" type eyebrow raise. To the owners of those eyebrows it's all just computers all the way down - don't give us any of this finger pointing crap. From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jan 2 21:58:53 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 21:58:53 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <4e3e1dbc-e98f-45ce-8627-26b2492b8bd9@stuart.id.au> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1513650501.1438019.1704161441177@connect.xfinity.com> <4e3e1dbc-e98f-45ce-8627-26b2492b8bd9@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <18332809.sWSEgdgrri@xev> On Tuesday, 2 January 2024 15:46:37 AEDT Russell Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > To be clear I wasn't arguing against the proposal. I was (perhaps badly) > trying to point out that the issue has a much broader impact. To me > those impacts are more important than the one Russell raised. I think it's good to discuss the issues surrounding this, among other things it will be educational for the people who haven't lived through the changes in technology that some of us have experienced. > What concerns me now is the library version proliferation thing I > mentioned earlier. I personally oppose a lot of the stuff that's happening with containers which is making these issues worse. > And the thing that replaced a 3270 (the browser) is > so bloated, Debian with the resources of a 1000 developers can't > maintain it. The point of the Debian project is NOT to maintain major applications but to maintain patch sets of local differences and to take bug reports from users that apply to the upstream code and submit them upstream in the appropriate manner. > And at the risk of starting a flame war, if I want to use > systemd as in init system (and you'll get no argument from me that isn't > a very fine init system), I am forced to compile 1.9 million lines of > intertwined code that isn't related. Systemd is larger in some ways, but provides some new and better tools for managing things. "systemd-analyze critical-chain" to diagnose boot performance and "systemd-analyze security" to show the security features of each daemon. Also with daemons started by systemd instead of shell scripts you don't have the issue of a compromised daemon being able to stuff key presses into the sysadmin input buffer and by default daemons are denied access to /home. You get significant benefits from systemd and on Debian etc you don't have to compile it just use the packaged version. > These are problems created by my engineering discipline, and must be > solved by us. We just need the motivation to do it. It is going to need > a *lot* of motivation. Debian has almost religious level objection to > taking code thrown over the wall, but it was forced to do it with > Chromium and Firefox. I suspect it won't come from resource utilisation, > partially because there are already a lot of small, open source projects > dedicated to that role out there. The prime motivation of Alpine Linux > is just that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux The complexity of web browsers is immense, that makes it difficult to treat them like other software. Alpine is not like regular distributions, but it's something that could do with more attention. > I'm pretty sure it's near impossible to make these large > non-decomposable systems bug free, which in turn implies they can't be > made secure either. Same goes for all software. But systemd etc are modular and run parts with minimum privs. A containerised sandbox is a standard feature in a web browser nowadays. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From jonhall80 at comcast.net Tue Jan 2 23:48:51 2024 From: jonhall80 at comcast.net (jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 07:48:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <4e3e1dbc-e98f-45ce-8627-26b2492b8bd9@stuart.id.au> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <1354505490.1434987.1704151136382@connect.xfinity.com> <90f7a83e-9a22-4fef-8120-e1426654857e@stuart.id.au> <1513650501.1438019.1704161441177@connect.xfinity.com> <4e3e1dbc-e98f-45ce-8627-26b2492b8bd9@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <1064038163.1442689.1704199731292@connect.xfinity.com> So many places to comment...so early in my morning... > But it is true I find it hard to get excited about RAM usage when, in > what seems like a just a few years ago I was amazed PC's were zooming > through the 32 bit barrier, yet now I carry a battery power device with > 64bits of address space, more connectivity, screen resolution, removable.... As someone who kicked off 64-bit addressing in Linux, the usage of 64-bit architecture in systems today is not *just* that every application needs 64 bits, but many need 33 bits. Also it is harder for developers to maintain both a 32-bit address space and a 33-bit address space. I went through 16-bit address spaces to 32-bit address spaces and I really do not want to go through 64-bit address spaces to require 128 bit address spaces. Fortunately there are not too many applications that could utilize 128 bit address spaces.... But I digress... It is *typically* not the instruction code that *needs* the larger amounts of main (and cache) memory but the ridiculous use of data space that people build into their applications AND (as noted) the wild non-usage of reasonable library management. However the other issue of performance that I mentioned is more along the lines of engineering discipline in profiling your code and perhaps realizing that a tiny bit of your code is using a huge amount of resources, and wouldn't it be nice to reduce that somewhat? I am DISTRESSED when computer professionals and academics start talking to me about how we have large memories and fast processors and we do not need to be concerned with efficiency anymore. >(I'm sorry, but re-writing > sin and cos doesn't seem comparable.) NO, you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. It is EXACTLY COMPARABLE. Many efficiencies can be made much better by looking at the very lowest levels. Obviously a bad algorithm will not be magically made much better if you optimize its code...choosing a better algorithm would be much better, but that would require the re-design of the code, something that you have ceded people will probably not do. And part of Russell Coker's proposal should have the nice side-affect of making people aware of the problem and build the answers into their code in the first place. >I also think the world at > large isn't going to give up on wanting software that works and can be > relied upon to not take down a fair chunk of a country's > telecommunications network. [1] So what in Russell Coker's proposal is going to make the software any worse? And might make it considerably better? My husband works on software for a very large and well known gaming system. He recently implemented a mechanism to trap exceptions generated by the hardware that were not trapped before. Dozens of potentially fatal exceptions appeared in code that was thought to be tested....exceptions that would, from time to time cause the applications to mysteriously crash. > So, it's a rock hits a hard place. Perhaps the Queen Mary hits Norfolk > Island is a better metaphor, because these software projects are huge > and cornerstones of the current internet, so nothing is going to change > course quickly. True, but if the Titanic had started to change course just a minute or so earlier they might have missed the iceberg altogether and we might have been spared several long movies. Sorry that this idea does not float your boat, but I think most people would rather plug the leaks while they can. > > Personally, I'd give up on the Queen Mary entirely. Changing its course > is just too hard. I'd start with the smaller projects one person can fit > their head around And that is what we are talking about. Plug the leaks, but at the same time teach better boat building. > > [0] From what I can tell, the EU New Product Liability Directive is > mostly about defanging software shrink wrap licences. They will not be > able to disclaim liability any more. You can't disclaim liability for a > toaster that electrocutes someone from a design flaw, so I don't know > why software has got away with the same thing for so long. The > implications for open source software is for a supplier to be liable you > have to have bought the toaster from them, and then the toaster must > have killed you. Kinda - you get the idea. Software killing someone who > downloaded it from a public repository without your knowledge doesn't > fit the bill no matter how much it may seem like it should. But the new > law still can impact open source developers. If for example you were a > log4j developer that earned money on the side by fixing bugs in it, then > the dollar amounts of damage done makes my eyes water and you maybe just > made yourself liable for it. Once this passes, I wouldn?t do that sort > of thing without getting professional indemnity first. > > [1] Granted, we all know that was more of an operations issue. But it > sure raised a lot of eyebrows, as in called before a senate committee > for a "please explain" type eyebrow raise. To the owners of those > eyebrows it's all just computers all the way down - don't give us any of > this finger pointing crap. I am not really sure where electricians came in. However I would recommend that any optimizations be passed by the maintainer of the code and accepted by them. And now I can go back to sleep. md From cs at cskk.id.au Wed Jan 3 11:28:46 2024 From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:28:46 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au wrote: >On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: >> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads >> by >> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. Make >> Noscript style controls standard built in. > >What does NoScript break? We need documentation on this, and maybe some >changes to defaults of OS installs. NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you turn on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD sites eg CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third parties (eg something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I had to visit it some years back). NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from various places for various sites. I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user admin pain. Cheers, Cameron Simpson From web at polynate.net Wed Jan 3 17:17:02 2024 From: web at polynate.net (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 17:17:02 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: To make this more concrete/actionable: 1. I think there is a large enough corpus of people who think this is a good idea to pursue it; 2. Clearly it will have more weight/value if it's officially endorsed by LCA (which awaits a new council); 3. There's no reason we can't develop a full proposal now for council to review/approve when ready. At this stage, the following people have put up their hand in some way: - John Dalton - Hugh Blemings - Russell Coker - Jonathan Woithe (?) I am also willing to contribute. Jonathan (or others from council), if there's a preferred format for such proposals, please let me know. I have drafted a bare bones proposal and a process in this Google doc . (Viewing/commenting is open; if you want editing access, use the 'request' process in the Google doc) -N On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 11:29, Cameron Simpson via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au wrote: > >On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: > >> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads > >> by > >> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. > Make > >> Noscript style controls standard built in. > > > >What does NoScript break? We need documentation on this, and maybe some > >changes to defaults of OS installs. > > NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are > totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg > news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you turn > on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD sites eg > CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third parties (eg > something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I had to visit it > some years back). > > NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS > sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). > > But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from > various places for various sites. > > I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user admin > pain. > > Cheers, > Cameron Simpson > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From web at polynate.net Wed Jan 3 17:18:44 2024 From: web at polynate.net (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 17:18:44 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: Not sure what happened to do the Google doc link , https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ewp2cAZCZqgcEU92cIxUwNMxis4rbpynfqzFvapj9Ls/edit -N On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 17:17, Nathan Bailey wrote: > To make this more concrete/actionable: > 1. I think there is a large enough corpus of people who think this is a > good idea to pursue it; > 2. Clearly it will have more weight/value if it's officially endorsed by > LCA (which awaits a new council); > 3. There's no reason we can't develop a full proposal now for council to > review/approve when ready. > > At this stage, the following people have put up their hand in some way: > > - John Dalton > - Hugh Blemings > - Russell Coker > - Jonathan Woithe (?) > > I am also willing to contribute. > > Jonathan (or others from council), if there's a preferred format for such > proposals, please let me know. > > I have drafted a bare bones proposal and a process in this Google doc. > (Viewing/commenting is open; if you want editing access, use the 'request' > process in the Google doc) > -N > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 11:29, Cameron Simpson via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au wrote: >> >On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: >> >> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads >> >> by >> >> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. >> Make >> >> Noscript style controls standard built in. >> > >> >What does NoScript break? We need documentation on this, and maybe some >> >changes to defaults of OS installs. >> >> NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are >> totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg >> news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you turn >> on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD sites eg >> CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third parties (eg >> something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I had to visit it >> some years back). >> >> NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS >> sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). >> >> But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from >> various places for various sites. >> >> I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user admin >> pain. >> >> Cheers, >> Cameron Simpson >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wil at zeropointdevelopment.com Wed Jan 3 21:02:51 2024 From: wil at zeropointdevelopment.com (Wil Brown) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 21:02:51 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <3528983.V25eIC5XRa@xev> Message-ID: I think the idea of an LA open-source contest/awards is a fantastic proposal. > As far as the reward is concerned, I *personally* would be less in favour of physical trophies and more supportive of a small monetary award. To me, spending $20 on a trophy that sits on a shelf gathering dust is not all that practical. > However, I am only one voice and in any case this is detail that can be worked through in due course, perhaps by a small team of people formed to run the contest if that's where things end up. > And/or names and awards added to a section on the LA website, with the council's approval, of course? Wil. On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 1:28?PM Jonathan Woithe via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 03:16:08PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > > On Monday, 1 January 2024 14:13:32 AEDT Jonathan Woithe via linux-aus > wrote: > > > My understanding of your message is that you would like the 2024 LA > Council > > > to consider the suggestion when Council is formed following the > election. > > > Is this your intention? > > > > If we are in a formal shutdown phase before the election then I guess > that > > the new council would be involved. But also the organisers of Everything > > Open 2024 can consider it. We have had programming contests at LCAs in > > the past so there is precedent for awards for getting things done during > > LCA. > > Thanks for confirming your thoughts, and to everyone who has provided > suggestions thus far. Please keep the ideas flowing. > > It is true that the LA Council is effectively in caretaker mode in the lead > up to the election. Once constituted, I expect the 2024 Council will > consider the ideas raised in this thread and see what might be practical. > If re-elected to Council I will make sure it is raised (although I expect > this to happen as a matter of course). > > As far as the reward is concerned, I *personally* would be less in favour > of > physical trophies and more supportive of a small monetary award. To me, > spending $20 on a trophy that sits on a shelf gathering dust is not all > that > practical. However, I am only one voice and in any case this is detail > that > can be worked through in due course, perhaps by a small team of people > formed to run the contest if that's where things end up. > > Regards > jonathan > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -- Wil Brown *WordPress Consultant, Developer & Educator at **Zero Point Development * *Vice President of Linux Australia * *WordPress Community Deputy* *m. 0423 526 829 <+61423526829> **w. zeropointdevelopment.com t. @WilBrown_AU LIn. LinkedIn * *Get my FREE business courses . ???* *Join me at WordPress Sydney and Elementor Sydney * Wil Brown about.me/wil_brown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Wed Jan 3 21:09:12 2024 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (kathy at kathyreid.id.au) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 21:09:12 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <3528983.V25eIC5XRa@xev> Message-ID: <958d7dab9727a2243a9d4e8b9d5e1dc4@kathyreid.id.au> One additional suggestion to the excellent threads here - I wonder if we could wrap this up in some sort of Australian / Australasian Open Source Awards programme? From memory, the good folx in Aotearoa/New Zealand used to run the NZOSS Open Source Awards but not sure if that is still running. Is there an appetite for something perhaps wider in scope? Also very aware of the lack of volunteer capacity across the board in LA / events / etc. Best, Kathy From gryllida at fastmail.fm Tue Jan 2 07:39:03 2024 From: gryllida at fastmail.fm (Gryllida) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 07:39:03 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <2678287.KRxA6XjA2N@cupcakke> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <4279046.mogB4TqSGs@xev> <2678287.KRxA6XjA2N@cupcakke> Message-ID: <20af6c21-401f-47d7-9e12-7455156f0bc5@app.fastmail.com> Hi all A few points related to ram usage on any computer: * personally i have not more than 4 tabs open at any given time, it helps comparably with other users who have 100+ tabs open * sometimes, using claws email instead of web browser helps with saving ram * for other websites, perhaps https://github.com/laurentb/weboob i've been meaning to test it for a while * https://kernc.github.io/xsuspender/ may also help From mjd at afork.com Tue Jan 2 10:52:55 2024 From: mjd at afork.com (Mitch Davis) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 10:52:55 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. There's no point trying to fix a resource use problem without knowing where the problem is. We have profilers because humans are notoriously bad at guessing. For auditing where time goes when booting a system, there's a tool (actually, it's more of an ecosystem that's arisen) called bootchart that shows all the processes that get run, when these processes get run, the dependencies between them, and where CPU is being spent. https://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/bootchart Is there an equivalent tool which will show a break down of how memory has been allocated on a running system? Such a tool would show where the most gains are to be made. Mitch. On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago. Yes > we > have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing > audio > etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. Make a > contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS > programs > and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. Reduction > can be > by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or > developing > a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. > > Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's > $20 > including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention > on > the web site. > > I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good > for > the community. > > What do you think? > > > PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Wed Jan 3 22:01:11 2024 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (kathy at kathyreid.id.au) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 22:01:11 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Announce] Notice of Linux Australia 2024 Council Elections and AGM In-Reply-To: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> References: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> Message-ID: <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> Thanks Joel for the announcement. I'd love to hear from potential Council Members around some of the challenges I see for Linux Australia itself, and the community more broadly, for example some of the actions or programs that might be undertaken in 2024 to address them. ## Pipeline challenges Across the board with open* in Australia, we are observing pipeline challenges - that is, we seem to be lacking "the next generation" of open source advocates - those willing to donate their time, talent and treasure (ref: Tiffany Ferris) to advance the organisation's goals. This is evident in the number of people nominating for Council, the broader group of people willing to "pitch in" and provide help with all the things the organisation does [0], the pipelines for organising flagship events such as Everything Open and PyConAU etc. How do nominees intend to address the pipeline challenges, with specific reference to goals, activities or programs of work? ## Hired help For a long time (certainly since I was on Council in the mid-2010s) there has been debate around whether Linux Australia should hire help such as an Executive Officer role to "do more of the doing", while Council plays a (volunteer) governance role. Other organisations, such as Digital Rights Watch, and previously, Electronic Frontiers Australia, have adopted this model. Can Linux Australia afford to go down this path, and where do nominees' views sit on this question? (To be clear, I don't think LA can afford to financially, and it sets up a schism of labour in terms of paid vs volunteer, but very interested in the thoughts of others). ## Strategic direction Is Linux Australia on the right track? What strategic changes do you think are needed (if any)? How would you make these changes? Kind regards, Kathy Reid [0] https://youtu.be/ektSl_d0F6Q?si=4VuCLRl--ymy-ogk&t=311 On 2023-12-24 22:15, Joel Addison wrote: > Dear Linux Australia Community, > > Pursuant to clause (15) of the Linux Australia constitution [1] we > hereby declare an election open and call for nominations to the Linux > Australia Council for the term January 2024 to January 2025. > > All office bearer and ordinary committee member positions are open for > Election. > > ## Key Information > > * Nominations will open from 26 December 2023 and run until 11:59pm > 6 January 2024 (AEDT). > * Voting will open at 01:01 AM 7 January 2024 (AEDT) and run until > 11:59pm 14 January 2024 (AEDT). > * Results will be ratified during the AGM held at 2:30pm Saturday > 20 January 2024 (AEDT). > > To view and participate in the election please visit > https://www.linux.org.au/ > * Click on ?Login? located on the top right hand side of the > page and log in. > * Click on ?Elections?. > * Under ?Linux Australia Council Election 2024?, click on > ?View & Submit Nominations?. > > ## What do I need to do? > > First of all, make sure your details are correct at Linux > Australia?s > website [2]. If you need assistance accessing the membership portal > please contact secretary at linux.org.au. Note that in line with common > election conventions, new membership requests are not processed during > the election period. > > If you wish to nominate yourself, identify the positions you wish to > nominate for and get an understanding of what each position involves. > Think about what you might bring to the role and prepare a short > pitch. > Then, accept the nomination you've been given by clicking the 'Accept > nomination' link. > > Please note that all people elected to a position on the Council > must provide their current residential address, as per requirements > for NSW incorporated associations. They must also hold a Director > identification number (director ID) as per requirements of > organisations > with an Australian Registered Body Number (ARBN) [3]. > > *You must accept your nomination to move to the next stage of the > election process* > > If you wish to nominate another person for a position, you may wish to > contact them first and have a chat to make sure they're happy being > nominated. Then follow the 'Nominate' link to nominate them. > > Once voting is open, you will be able to vote for candidates. Results > will be announced at the Linux Australia AGM to be held on 20 January > 2024. > > ## Why should I nominate? > > Being a member of Linux Australia Council is a fun way to meet new > people, work on exciting projects and expand your skill base. It gives > you excellent transferable skills to help build your career, and > allows > you to grow your professional network. It looks great on a CV, and is > also a chance to give back to the vibrant Linux and open source > ecosystem in Australia and globally. If you're passionate about open > technologies and the communities that surround them, it's a great > opportunity to help drive and steer Australia's contribution in this > field. > > ## What is the commitment required? > > If you are contemplating nominating for a role on Council, in addition > to referring to the Position Descriptions provided [4], you are > strongly > encouraged to approach current and former council members for their > perspective. You will find them, to a person, willing to discuss the > roles and responsibilities in a more informal manner. > > The roles do require a time commitment. > * Ordinary Council Member: a minimum of 2-3 hours per week. > * Office bearers: 8-12 hours per week. > Please allow for this when considering your nomination. > > ## Why should I run? > > If you?ve been nominated, or are thinking of nominating yourself, > you > should give the opportunity serious consideration. Being on the > council > is both hard and often thankless work, but it is also incredibly > rewarding. Linux Australia can only achieve what it does by its > members > and helping out with the council responsibilities is a great way to > ensure Linux Australia continues to be successful. It is also an > opportunity to help the organisation grow, reach into new areas and to > succeed on important topics of national relevance. > > As always, your feedback and questions are warmly welcomed. If you'd > like to have a chat with anyone on Council around what it involves, > please reach out. > > Kind regards, > > Joel Addison > President > Linux Australia > > [1] http://www.linux.org.au/constitution > [2] http://www.linux.org.au/membership > [3] https://www.abrs.gov.au/director-identification-number > [4] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/position-descriptions > _______________________________________________ > announce mailing list > announce at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/announce From jonhall80 at comcast.net Thu Jan 4 04:56:44 2024 From: jonhall80 at comcast.net (jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:56:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: <2087898263.1489777.1704304604267@connect.xfinity.com> Nathan, I will add to this. In private email I have talked with Russell Coker and I would be happy to support this project by pointing to this "corpus of people" and if LCA decides to officially endorse it to point to them too. In addition, I will reach out to LPI's Board of Directors to see if LPI would be willing to support this through their Personal Development programs, particularly in the DevOP space. I have started an article for the Linux Pro Magazine on these issues, and would be happy to mention the concepts in that and when you are further along do a follow-up to the actual mechanisms. Warmest regards, maddog > On 01/03/2024 1:17 AM EST Nathan Bailey via linux-aus wrote: > > > To make this more concrete/actionable: > 1. I think there is a large enough corpus of people who think this is a good idea to pursue it; > 2. Clearly it will have more weight/value if it's officially endorsed by LCA (which awaits a new council); > 3. There's no reason we can't develop a full proposal now for council to review/approve when ready. > > At this stage, the following people have put up their hand in some way: > * John Dalton > * Hugh Blemings > * Russell Coker > * Jonathan Woithe (?) > I am also willing to contribute. > > Jonathan (or others from council), if there's a preferred format for such proposals, please let me know. > > I have drafted a bare bones proposal and a process in this Google doc http://JohnDaltonHughBlemingsRussellCokerJonathanWoithe. > (Viewing/commenting is open; if you want editing access, use the 'request' process in the Google doc) > -N > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 11:29, Cameron Simpson via linux-aus wrote: > > > On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au mailto:russell at coker.com.au wrote: > > >On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: > > >> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads > > >> by > > >> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. Make > > >> Noscript style controls standard built in. > > > > > >What does NoScript break? We need documentation on this, and maybe some > > >changes to defaults of OS installs. > > > > NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are > > totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg > > news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you turn > > on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD sites eg > > CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third parties (eg > > something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I had to visit it > > some years back). > > > > NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS > > sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). > > > > But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from > > various places for various sites. > > > > I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user admin > > pain. > > > > Cheers, > > Cameron Simpson > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Thu Jan 4 04:59:58 2024 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:59:58 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Announce] Notice of Linux Australia 2024 Council Elections and AGM In-Reply-To: <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> References: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <8a55589a-baff-46ff-b5bd-fa44384e6c74@adam.com.au> To be honest, even if LA could afford to pay an entire suite of staff, if it lacked the open* movers and shakers, it wouldn't really be the Linux Australia that at least I knew or thought it was/is. A staff could certainly help prevent burnout -- IMHO the AUUG lasted as long as it did because it had a paid staff member so the volunteer board didn't burn out /as fast/, but it did lose the grass roots members who, incidentally, all went to L.A. which had more life at the time, and obviously still does. I would also comment that I don't think the lack of participation in L.A. is just open* specific; although I now have a U.S. context (I'm essentially an ex-pat Aussie in NYS, USA), all the organisations that need a pipeline of next generation advocates, be they pet advocacy groups, Churches, service groups (think Rotary/Lions, even Scouts), are having a hard time finding it and we're all growing older! /That's not to say L.A. /should do nothing about it - I just say that because I don't think L.A.'s situation is because of a lack of desire, will, earnest, and well-deserved effort. I think there's something else going on :( DSL [1] Incidentally, a remnant of the AUUG still meets in South Australia...but I digress... On 1/3/2024 6:01 AM, Kathy Reid via linux-aus wrote: > Thanks Joel for the announcement. > > I'd love to hear from potential Council Members around some of the > challenges I see for Linux Australia itself, and the community more > broadly, for example some of the actions or programs that might be > undertaken in 2024 to address them. > > ## Pipeline challenges > > Across the board with open* in Australia, we are observing pipeline > challenges - that is, we seem to be lacking "the next generation" of > open source advocates - those willing to donate their time, talent and > treasure (ref: Tiffany Ferris) to advance the organisation's goals. > This is evident in the number of people nominating for Council, the > broader group of people willing to "pitch in" and provide help with > all the things the organisation does [0], the pipelines for organising > flagship events such as Everything Open and PyConAU etc. > > How do nominees intend to address the pipeline challenges, with > specific reference to goals, activities or programs of work? > > ## Hired help > > For a long time (certainly since I was on Council in the mid-2010s) > there has been debate around whether Linux Australia should hire help > such as an Executive Officer role to "do more of the doing", while > Council plays a (volunteer) governance role. Other organisations, such > as Digital Rights Watch, and previously, Electronic Frontiers > Australia, have adopted this model. > > Can Linux Australia afford to go down this path, and where do > nominees' views sit on this question? > > (To be clear, I don't think LA can afford to financially, and it sets > up a schism of labour in terms of paid vs volunteer, but very > interested in the thoughts of others). > > > ## Strategic direction > > Is Linux Australia on the right track? What strategic changes do you > think are needed (if any)? How would you make these changes? > > > Kind regards, > > Kathy Reid > > > [0] https://youtu.be/ektSl_d0F6Q?si=4VuCLRl--ymy-ogk&t=311 > > > > > On 2023-12-24 22:15, Joel Addison wrote: >> Dear Linux Australia Community, >> >> Pursuant to clause (15) of the Linux Australia constitution [1] we >> hereby declare an election open and call for nominations to the Linux >> Australia Council for the term January 2024 to January 2025. >> >> All office bearer and ordinary committee member positions are open for >> Election. >> >> ## Key Information >> >> ?? * Nominations will open from 26 December 2023 and run until 11:59pm >> 6 January 2024 (AEDT). >> ?? * Voting will open at 01:01 AM 7 January 2024 (AEDT) and run until >> 11:59pm 14 January 2024 (AEDT). >> ?? * Results will be ratified during the AGM held at 2:30pm Saturday >> 20 January 2024 (AEDT). >> >> To view and participate in the election please visit >> https://www.linux.org.au/ >> ?? * Click on ?Login? located on the top right hand side of the >> page and log in. >> ?? * Click on ?Elections?. >> ?? * Under ?Linux Australia Council Election 2024?, click on >> ?View & Submit Nominations?. >> >> ## What do I need to do? >> >> First of all, make sure your details are correct at Linux >> Australia?s >> website [2]. If you need assistance accessing the membership portal >> please contact secretary at linux.org.au. Note that in line with common >> election conventions, new membership requests are not processed during >> the election period. >> >> If you wish to nominate yourself, identify the positions you wish to >> nominate for and get an understanding of what each position involves. >> Think about what you might bring to the role and prepare a short >> pitch. >> Then, accept the nomination you've been given by clicking the 'Accept >> nomination' link. >> >> Please note that all people elected to a position on the Council >> must provide their current residential address, as per requirements >> for NSW incorporated associations. They must also hold a Director >> identification number (director ID) as per requirements of >> organisations >> with an Australian Registered Body Number (ARBN) [3]. >> >> *You must accept your nomination to move to the next stage of the >> election process* >> >> If you wish to nominate another person for a position, you may wish to >> contact them first and have a chat to make sure they're happy being >> nominated. Then follow the 'Nominate' link to nominate them. >> >> Once voting is open, you will be able to vote for candidates. Results >> will be announced at the Linux Australia AGM to be held on 20 January >> 2024. >> >> ## Why should I nominate? >> >> Being a member of Linux Australia Council is a fun way to meet new >> people, work on exciting projects and expand your skill base. It gives >> you excellent transferable skills to help build your career, and >> allows >> you to grow your professional network. It looks great on a CV, and is >> also a chance to give back to the vibrant Linux and open source >> ecosystem in Australia and globally. If you're passionate about open >> technologies and the communities that surround them, it's a great >> opportunity to help drive and steer Australia's contribution in this >> field. >> >> ## What is the commitment required? >> >> If you are contemplating nominating for a role on Council, in addition >> to referring to the Position Descriptions provided [4], you are >> strongly >> encouraged to approach current and former council members for their >> perspective.? You will find them, to a person, willing to discuss the >> roles and responsibilities in a more informal manner. >> >> The roles do require a time commitment. >> * Ordinary Council Member: a minimum of 2-3 hours per week. >> * Office bearers: 8-12 hours per week. >> Please allow for this when considering your nomination. >> >> ## Why should I run? >> >> If you?ve been nominated, or are thinking of nominating yourself, >> you >> should give the opportunity serious consideration. Being on the >> council >> is both hard and often thankless work, but it is also incredibly >> rewarding. Linux Australia can only achieve what it does by its >> members >> and helping out with the council responsibilities is a great way to >> ensure Linux Australia continues to be successful. It is also an >> opportunity to help the organisation grow, reach into new areas and to >> succeed on important topics of national relevance. >> >> As always, your feedback and questions are warmly welcomed. If you'd >> like to have a chat with anyone on Council around what it involves, >> please reach out. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Joel Addison >> President >> Linux Australia >> >> [1] http://www.linux.org.au/constitution >> [2] http://www.linux.org.au/membership >> [3] https://www.abrs.gov.au/director-identification-number >> [4] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/position-descriptions >> _______________________________________________ >> announce mailing list >> announce at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/announce > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From secretary at linux.org.au Thu Jan 4 09:05:14 2024 From: secretary at linux.org.au (secretary) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 09:05:14 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Notice of Linux Australia 2024 Annual General Meeting (AGM) Message-ID: Pursuant to Clause (24) of the Linux Australia Constitution [1], I hereby give notice that the Annual General Meeting of the organisation will be held Saturday 20 January 2024 at 2:00pm AEDT (UTC+11). The meeting will be held by video conference using Zoom. Attendees must pre-register at this URL using the same email address that they use for Linux Australia's member site: _https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZItcO2tqjktEtXqxvxxb67TPpDfwKfFqlkU_ Once registered, you should receive a confirmation email (please remember to check your spam folder). The meeting will (a) confirm the minutes of the last preceding annual general meeting and of any special general meeting held since that meeting, (b) receive from the committee reports on the activities of the association during the last preceding financial year, (c) elect office-bearers of the association and ordinary committee members, or to announce the results of a ballot held prior to the annual general meeting under clause 15(5), (d) receive and consider any financial statement or report required to be submitted to members under the Act. Please find below the draft agenda for the AGM. I also hereby call for any agenda items to be tabled for discussion at the Annual General Meeting. With kind regards, Neill Cox Secretary, Linux Australia [1] _http://www.linux.org.au/constitution_ -- Agenda of Linux Australia - Annual General Meeting 2024 Saturday 20 January 2024, 2:00pm AEDT (UTC+11) Video conference via Zoom. 1. President?s welcome MR JOEL ADDISON, President To note: attendance will be recorded in the minutes 2. Approval of the minutes from the previous Annual General Meeting - 2023 MOTION by MR JOEL ADDISON that the minutes of the Annual General Meeting 2023 of Linux Australia be accepted as complete and accurate. The minutes are available at: _https://linux.org.au/minutes-of-linux-australia-annual-general-meeting-2023/_ To be seconded and voted upon 3. To receive the REPORTS of activities of the preceding year from OFFICE BEARERS MR JOEL ADDISON - President MR RUSSELL STUART - Treasurer Includes presentation of the Auditor?s Report MR NEILL COX - Secretary MOTION by RUSSELL STUART that the Auditor?s Report is a true statement of financial accounts MOTION by JOEL ADDISON that the President?s report is correct MOTION by NEILL COX that the Secretary?s report is correct MOTION by RUSSELL STUART that the Treasurer?s report is correct MOTION by JOEL ADDISON that the actions of Council during 2023 are endorsed by the membership To be seconded and voted upon 4. To CONSIDER items tabled in the call for agenda items 5. DECLARATION of Election and WELCOME of incoming Council by the Returning Officer 6. NOMINATION and ELECTION of Members to Vacant Council Positions 7. To HEAR and RESPOND to questions from the floor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwoithe at just42.net Thu Jan 4 14:05:16 2024 From: jwoithe at just42.net (Jonathan Woithe) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:35:16 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Announce] Notice of Linux Australia 2024 Council Elections and AGM In-Reply-To: <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> References: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Hi Kathy On Wed, Jan 03, 2024 at 10:01:11PM +1100, Kathy Reid via linux-aus wrote: > I'd love to hear from potential Council Members around some of the > challenges I see for Linux Australia itself, and the community more broadly, > for example some of the actions or programs that might be undertaken in 2024 > to address them. Sure! See below. I hope my responses adequately address your questions but let me know if any clarifications are required. > ## Pipeline challenges > > Across the board with open* in Australia, we are observing pipeline > challenges - that is, we seem to be lacking "the next generation" of open > source advocates - those willing to donate their time, talent and treasure > (ref: Tiffany Ferris) to advance the organisation's goals. This is evident > in the number of people nominating for Council, the broader group of people > willing to "pitch in" and provide help with all the things the organisation > does [0], the pipelines for organising flagship events such as Everything > Open and PyConAU etc. > > How do nominees intend to address the pipeline challenges, with specific > reference to goals, activities or programs of work? First up, pipeline challenges are not unique to Linux Australia (LA) or the Open Technology community generally. Across society I have observed similar issues in diverse volunteer-based organisations. Many of these groups have far more resources than LA is ever likely to have and yet they are still struggling to attract volunteers of all ages. The issue appears to manifest differently across the generations, suggesting that there are multiple underlying issues. However, there doesn't appear to be consensus on the real root causes or - critically - on ways to address it (beyond the usual "time-poor society" comment). That said, it is clear that LA needs to attract and mentor the next generation if it is to remain relevant to the community and viable. As there is no textbook solution to the problem, LA will simply need to try a number of different approaches to see what works. Of course it's difficult to measure success in this instance too because it could only become obvious in a decade's time. A Junior Primary student attending a technology event might have a seed planted in their mind which only germinates into a passion many years later. To this end, I have been encouraged by the events like those organised by Lyndsey Jackson over the last couple of years with LA's support ("Big Sand Band" in 2022, the upcoming "Hack The Triangle" event this year). These events target the younger generation, getting them enthusiastic about technology and providing an opportunity to make use of and highlight the Open Technology sector. I see engagement through similar events as an important component towards addressing the pipeline challenge - even if the lead time on seeing the benefits is lengthy. Of course, this raises a second related challenge - identifying LA members who themselves have the time, resources and energy to put these events on. LA's pipeline challenge is more than just about primary and lower secondary students, however. With a small number of exceptions, the education system in Australia is heavily skewed towards proprietary technology. In some extreme cases, institutions forbid students using anything other than what has been officially authorised. However, even without a prohibition the systems in place make it almost impossible to use anything else in practice. The result of this is that students emerge from education knowing nothing about Open Technology solutions. Since proprietary solutions are what they know, they just continue using that without question in most cases. The cause of this situation has been well documented. The weight of resources directed at the education sector by proprietary vendors precisely to engineer the above outcome is a substantial hurdle for organisations like LA. Unfortunately, I do not currently have any answers to this aspect of the pipeline challenge. > ## Hired help > > For a long time (certainly since I was on Council in the mid-2010s) there > has been debate around whether Linux Australia should hire help such as an > Executive Officer role to "do more of the doing", while Council plays a > (volunteer) governance role. Other organisations, such as Digital Rights > Watch, and previously, Electronic Frontiers Australia, have adopted this > model. > > Can Linux Australia afford to go down this path, and where do nominees' > views sit on this question? As you elude to, this is a vexed question in the context of volunteer organisations. In what follows, I use the term "Executive Officer" to denote the "do more of the doing" role for brevity. Given the state of LA's finances and our average profits over the last few years, I personally do not believe LA can afford to employ an Executive Officer. It may be possible to argue that thre's a chicken-and-egg situation going on here: that if a paid Executive Officer were put in place, the Council would be freed to spend time on other activities which would raise the money needed to pay for the Executive Officer. However, broadly speaking LA's income is exclusively from the conferences it auspices. Increasing this means raising the profits generated by these conferences, and certainly for the foreseeable future this doesn't appear likely - assuming we continue to keep the conferences affordable. The other side of this is that LA feeds its profits back to the community in the form of sponsorships, grants and donations. If a sizable proportion of the profit were to go to pay the wage of a paid position, the benefits delivered to the community will necessarily fall. I have also been involved with other volunteer-based community groups over the years who have wrestled with this question. In cases where the decision has been made to selectively pay for certain roles, the result has almost always been detrimental to the organisation. Human nature being what it is, paying for one position creates a perception amongst members that the organisation values the work of the paid person more than those who are unpaid. Policies can be written to counter this on a theoretical level, but this doesn't alter what people think in practice. Rather than reinvigorate an organisation, I have seen the introduction of a paid position result in a net decline in the vibrancy of the group as people left, feeling that their contribution wasn't being appreciated or was being taken for granted. I do not want to see the LA community similarly fragmented over this issue. This is not to say that such a model doesn't work in some places: the examples you called out demonstrate this. However, I am not convinced that it would be a net gain for LA. It is worth mentioning that LA already pays for some services (the accounting platform being the most obvious). Several of LA's conference teams have also paid for a professional event organiser to assist them. One could therefore argue that a precedent has been set. Even so, employing an Executive Officer for the organisation as a whole is quite different to these other expenses which, generally, target very specific things. To summarise, my current position is as follows. 1. At present, LA cannot afford to pay for an Executive Officer. 2. If LA could afford to pay for an Executive Officer, I *personally* do not believe it is in the best interests of LA to do so. However, LA is more than just me and I see my potential role on Council being representative of the membership. Therefore, if there were to be a groundswell of opinion amongst the membership that this was an option LA should pursue, I would certainly not stand in the way. 3. I *personally* remain open to arguments on both sides of the discussion. > ## Strategic direction > > Is Linux Australia on the right track? What strategic changes do you think > are needed (if any)? How would you make these changes? In many ways this is an extension of the first question. I think that generally speaking LA is going in the right direction: LA provides frameworks which allow community-run events to occur, and the profits made are fed back to support the Open Technology community as previously described. LA also works to promote diversity in the Open Technology community (and the Technology sector more broadly). These efforts should continue, and even be expanded where resources allow. However, there are clearly things that need improvement. The pipeline challenge (and membership engagement more generally) is a good example. As stated earlier, I would be very keen to see more outreach events held to encourage more students to embrace Open Technologies. Recent discussions on the linux-aus mailing list indicate that there is enthusiasm for the establishment of LA awards, with a specific focus initially on programming efficiency improvements. I continue to monitor the discussion with interest as it appears to be an effective way to engage members and promote their activities to the membership generally. There is still obviously a significant amount of developmental work to be done on the idea, but with members enthusiastic to see this pursued it appears to be a natural candidate for inclusion in LA's strategy due to the engagement it will foster - for both those organising the awards and the people taking part. As highlighted in the past, there have been some difficulties surrounding communication from Council to members. While I believe this has improved in 2023, the broader question of the communication platform fragmentation (and the resulting inefficiencies) remains. On the one hand, it would be unifying if all members were reachable on a single platform. In practice, this is unlikely to be practical due to the diverse views and requirements of our members. The challenge then is to devise a way to efficiently communicate with all LA members without having to send a message in a dozen different ways (which takes time). It may be possible to leverage some automation, for example, to make this less onerous. Adding to the complexity is the decline in email as a communication medium that younger generations actively engage in. LA - like many Open Technology communities - has traditionally used email as the primary communication medium. There may need to address this in order to make LA more relatable and accessible for younger people while not alienating the existing membership. Finally, I note that Joel is keen to form a five year strategic plan in 2024. I look forward to supporting that process and hearing the ideas which result from the associated discussions within the LA community. Regards jonathan LA Ordinary Committee Member 2023 Nominated for 2024 LA Ordinary Committee Member Nominated for 2024 LA Vice President From mike.carden at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 17:58:00 2024 From: mike.carden at gmail.com (Mike Carden) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 17:58:00 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] A slightly different LA competition Message-ID: This afternoon I happened to take a look at a page on the LA web site: https://linux.org.au/about-us/values/ I confess that I did so to remind myself of my part in drafting our shared values all those years ago. The text has changed of course and serves to again reinforce LA's values. When I scrolled to the bottom, I found this glorious photograph: https://linux.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/32386328891_17cb360d03_o.jpg An auditorium full of wonderful, wonderful LCA delegates, speakers, vollies and heck... just great people! Would it be a completely horrible breach of privacy to run a competition for counting the people you can name in that photo? I mean, don't necessarily name them.. just count. It is of course a Terrible Idea. -- MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Thu Jan 4 21:01:10 2024 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 20:01:10 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] A slightly different LA competition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/1/24 16:58, Mike Carden via linux-aus wrote: > When I scrolled to the bottom, I found this glorious photograph: > > https://linux.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/32386328891_17cb360d03_o.jpg I can't recall another a photo with quite so many attentive, appreciative and happy people. Looks to be LCA 2017 Hobart, Fri 20/Jan, Closing Ceremony. So they are likely thanking the organisers. From paul.j.fenwick at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 21:06:48 2024 From: paul.j.fenwick at gmail.com (Paul Fenwick) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 21:06:48 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] The passing of Daniel Harmsworth Message-ID: Hi everyone, With great regret and sadness I wish to report that on the first of January 2024 in Auckland, Daniel Harmsworth passed away suddenly at the age of 36. Some of you may remember Daniel as being involved in Maker Labs and Fab Labs across Australia, New Zealand, and the world. While not always taking the limelight himself, Daniel's enthusiasm was infectious, and he was untiring in supporting others to work on new and ambitious projects, to try new things even if they were silly or hard, and to form communities to share knowledge and friendship. Daniel founded the Perth Artifactory maker space group in 2009, which continues to operate today. Daniel's funeral will take place on Thursday 11th of January 2024 at the Cockburn Street Chapel in Wellington New Zealand. I've been told there will also be an online stream, and I will provide those details when I have them. Please distribute this email as you feel is appropriate. In sadness, and with fond memories, Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laura.steynes72 at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 00:55:27 2024 From: laura.steynes72 at gmail.com (Laura Steynes) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 23:55:27 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] The passing of Daniel Harmsworth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sad news, I have passed this on in my circles On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:07?PM Paul Fenwick via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > With great regret and sadness I wish to report that on the first of > January 2024 in Auckland, Daniel Harmsworth passed away suddenly at the age > of 36. > > Some of you may remember Daniel as being involved in Maker Labs and Fab > Labs across Australia, New Zealand, and the world. While not always taking > the limelight himself, Daniel's enthusiasm was infectious, and he was > untiring in supporting others to work on new and ambitious projects, to try > new things even if they were silly or hard, and to form communities to > share knowledge and friendship. > > Daniel founded the Perth Artifactory maker space group in 2009, which > continues to operate today. > > Daniel's funeral will take place on Thursday 11th of January 2024 at the > Cockburn Street Chapel in Wellington New Zealand. I've been told there will > also be an online stream, and I will provide those details when I have them. > > Please distribute this email as you feel is appropriate. > > In sadness, and with fond memories, > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laura.steynes72 at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 01:02:34 2024 From: laura.steynes72 at gmail.com (Laura Steynes) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 00:02:34 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem In-Reply-To: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> References: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> Message-ID: or they can appoint admins who knows what they are doing, as they surely would have set up SRS to avoid those problems for all forwarding like everyone else does. On Mon, Jan 1, 2024 at 11:44?AM Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > (expanded from > ): host > mailhost.linux.org.au[103.84.224.25] said: 550 5.7.1 > : Recipient address rejected: Message > rejected due to: SPF fail - not authorized. Please see > > http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=mfrom;id=russell-sender at coker.com.au;ip=66.111.4.238;r=committee at lists.linux.org.au > (in reply to RCPT TO command) > > I got the above when trying to send email to the council. The Linux > Australia > list server needs to whitelist 66.111.4.238 for SPF checks so that the > council at linux.org.au forwarding address works correctly. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Fri Jan 5 01:38:01 2024 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 00:38:01 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem In-Reply-To: References: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> Message-ID: <20240105003801.4915a74b@gnosticus.teln.shikadi.net> > > I got the above when trying to send email to the council. The Linux > > Australia list server needs to whitelist 66.111.4.238 for SPF > > checks so that the council at linux.org.au forwarding address works > > correctly. > > or they can appoint admins who knows what they are doing, as they > surely would have set up SRS to avoid those problems for all > forwarding like everyone else does. I've never understood the need to insult volunteers, when they graciously donate their time to keep things running that the rest of us are free to use without having to lift a finger. If you think they could be doing a better job, maybe you could volunteer some of your free time in return to help them out? Cheers, Adam. From kssn_55 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 5 08:49:21 2024 From: kssn_55 at yahoo.co.uk (siva sankar) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 21:49:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Linux-aus] The passing of Daniel Harmsworth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <898337479.12657336.1704404961014@mail.yahoo.com> Its Real sad news On Friday, 5 January 2024 at 02:00:05 GMT+11, Paul Fenwick via linux-aus wrote: Hi everyone, With great regret and sadness I wish to report that on the first of January 2024 in Auckland, Daniel Harmsworth passed away suddenly at the age of 36. Some of you may remember Daniel as being involved in Maker Labs and Fab Labs across Australia, New Zealand, and the world. While not always taking the limelight himself, Daniel's enthusiasm was infectious, and he was untiring in supporting others to work on new and ambitious projects, to try new things even if they were silly or hard, and to form communities to share knowledge and friendship. Daniel founded the Perth Artifactory maker space group in 2009, which continues to operate today. Daniel's funeral will take place on Thursday 11th of January 2024 at the Cockburn Street Chapel in Wellington New Zealand. I've been told there will also be an online stream, and I will provide those details when I have them. Please distribute this email as you feel is appropriate. In sadness, and with fond memories,Paul _______________________________________________ linux-aus mailing list linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wil at zeropointdevelopment.com Fri Jan 5 09:21:35 2024 From: wil at zeropointdevelopment.com (Wil Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 09:21:35 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] The passing of Daniel Harmsworth In-Reply-To: <898337479.12657336.1704404961014@mail.yahoo.com> References: <898337479.12657336.1704404961014@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great sadness and thank you for making the community aware. Wil. On Fri, 5 Jan 2024, 08:49 siva sankar via linux-aus, < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Its Real sad news > On Friday, 5 January 2024 at 02:00:05 GMT+11, Paul Fenwick via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > With great regret and sadness I wish to report that on the first of > January 2024 in Auckland, Daniel Harmsworth passed away suddenly at the age > of 36. > > Some of you may remember Daniel as being involved in Maker Labs and Fab > Labs across Australia, New Zealand, and the world. While not always taking > the limelight himself, Daniel's enthusiasm was infectious, and he was > untiring in supporting others to work on new and ambitious projects, to try > new things even if they were silly or hard, and to form communities to > share knowledge and friendship. > > Daniel founded the Perth Artifactory maker space group in 2009, which > continues to operate today. > > Daniel's funeral will take place on Thursday 11th of January 2024 at the > Cockburn Street Chapel in Wellington New Zealand. I've been told there will > also be an online stream, and I will provide those details when I have them. > > Please distribute this email as you feel is appropriate. > > In sadness, and with fond memories, > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Fri Jan 5 13:50:25 2024 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 21:50:25 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> Message-ID: <750b701f-442a-4a67-8e51-e2e680f6e871@adam.com.au> I'm absolutely certain there are memory profile tools - even just plain old top :P The only thing we'd have to think of here, though, would be finding the "mythical average user". DSL On 1/1/2024 6:52 PM, Mitch Davis via linux-aus wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus > wrote: > > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat.? Linux laptops with 8G > of RAM > but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > > There's no point trying to fix a resource use problem without knowing > where the problem is.? We have profilers because humans are > notoriously bad at guessing. > > For auditing where time goes when booting a system, there's a tool > (actually, it's more of an ecosystem that's arisen) called bootchart > that shows all the processes that get run, when these processes get > run, the dependencies between them, and where CPU is being spent. > > https://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/bootchart > > Is there an equivalent tool which will show a break down of how memory > has been allocated on a running system?? Such a tool would show where > the most gains are to be made. > > Mitch. > > > On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus > wrote: > > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat.? Linux laptops with 8G > of RAM > aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years > ago.? Yes we > have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for > pausing audio > etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it.? > Make a > contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS > programs > and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. > Reduction can be > by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, > or developing > a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. > > Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests > that's $20 > including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a > mention on > the web site. > > I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and > good for > the community. > > What do you think? > > > PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF > problem. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Fri Jan 5 13:52:55 2024 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 21:52:55 -0500 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: I wonder if there's a repository which describes "what sites need which JavaScript to not break" so that people could run `NoScripts` but not have to always worry that "My Favourite Site That Uses React" doesn't break unexpectedly; a bit like the TypeScript repositories that let one download TS definitions so you wouldn't have to make them up all by one's self? Or even, the common "virus databases" (after all, the things we want to get rid of with NoScripts are almost virus look, or at least intrusive). DSL On 1/2/2024 7:28 PM, Cameron Simpson via linux-aus wrote: > On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au wrote: >> On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: >>> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads by >>> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. >>> Make >>> Noscript style controls standard built in. >> >> What does NoScript break?? We need documentation on this, and maybe some >> changes to defaults of OS installs. > > NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are > totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg > news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you > turn on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD > sites eg CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third > parties (eg something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I > had to visit it some years back). > > NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS > sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). > > But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from > various places for various sites. > > I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user > admin pain. > > Cheers, > Cameron Simpson > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From jonhall80 at comcast.net Fri Jan 5 15:19:33 2024 From: jonhall80 at comcast.net (jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 23:19:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <750b701f-442a-4a67-8e51-e2e680f6e871@adam.com.au> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <750b701f-442a-4a67-8e51-e2e680f6e871@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <743049102.1542854.1704428373850@connect.xfinity.com> David, To me there are more than one type of memory profiling: o one that shows how an individual program uses memory and therefore can show if an individual program is a "pig" o another shows how a running system is allocating its memory among all the running (and sleeping) processes Both really need to be studied. Another thing that could come out of this contest is a set of easy to understand rules for how new (and even experienced) users might tune their system to get both good user experience and good performance. md > On 01/04/2024 9:50 PM EST David Lloyd via linux-aus wrote: > > > > > > I'm absolutely certain there are memory profile tools - even just plain old top :P > > The only thing we'd have to think of here, though, would be finding the "mythical average user". > > DSL > > On 1/1/2024 6:52 PM, Mitch Davis via linux-aus wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > > > > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > > > but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > > > > There's no point trying to fix a resource use problem without knowing where the problem is. We have profilers because humans are notoriously bad at guessing. > > > > For auditing where time goes when booting a system, there's a tool (actually, it's more of an ecosystem that's arisen) called bootchart that shows all the processes that get run, when these processes get run, the dependencies between them, and where CPU is being spent. > > > > https://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/bootchart > > > > Is there an equivalent tool which will show a break down of how memory has been allocated on a running system? Such a tool would show where the most gains are to be made. > > > > Mitch. > > > > > > On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > > > > We have an ongoing problem of system bloat. Linux laptops with 8G of RAM > > > aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago. Yes we > > > have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing audio > > > etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. > > > > > > I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it. Make a > > > contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS programs > > > and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference. Reduction can be > > > by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or developing > > > a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. > > > > > > Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's $20 > > > including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention on > > > the web site. > > > > > > I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good for > > > the community. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. > > > > > > -- > > > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > > > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > linux-aus mailing list > > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > > > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au mailto:linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at petermoulding.com Fri Jan 5 15:35:41 2024 From: info at petermoulding.com (Info) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 15:35:41 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <743049102.1542854.1704428373850@connect.xfinity.com> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <750b701f-442a-4a67-8e51-e2e680f6e871@adam.com.au> <743049102.1542854.1704428373850@connect.xfinity.com> Message-ID: <591edd71-5008-4f4d-8298-902365d7093d@petermoulding.com> I use valgrind for C. I do not know if there is an equivalent for other languages. I also have the code report memory at test points. If there were rules covering methods in other languages, you can set the equivalent of a printf of memory at the program test points and exit. I know you can run programs in a script to measure time but the script cannot look at usage within the program execution. I think it is valid to include metrics in the program code testing. On 5/1/24 15:19, jon.maddog.hall--- via linux-aus wrote: > David, > > To me there are more than one type of memory profiling: > > o one that shows how an individual program uses memory and therefore can show if an individual > program is a "pig" > o another shows how a running system is allocating its memory among all the running (and sleeping) > processes > > Both really need to be studied. > > Another thing that could come out of this contest is a set of easy to understand rules for how new > (and even experienced) users might tune their system to get both good user experience and good > performance. > md >> On 01/04/2024 9:50 PM EST David Lloyd via linux-aus wrote: >> >> I'm absolutely certain there are memory profile tools - even just plain old top :P >> >> The only thing we'd have to think of here, though, would be finding the "mythical average user". >> >> DSL >> >> On 1/1/2024 6:52 PM, Mitch Davis via linux-aus wrote: >>> On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: >>> >>> We have an ongoing problem of system bloat.? Linux laptops with 8G of RAM >>> but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. >>> >>> >>> There's no point trying to fix a resource use problem without knowing where the problem is.? We >>> have profilers because humans are notoriously bad at guessing. >>> >>> For auditing where time goes when booting a system, there's a tool (actually, it's more of an >>> ecosystem that's arisen) called bootchart that shows all the processes that get run, when these >>> processes get run, the dependencies between them, and where CPU is being spent. >>> >>> https://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/bootchart >>> >>> Is there an equivalent tool which will show a break down of how memory has been allocated on a >>> running system?? Such a tool would show where the most gains are to be made. >>> >>> Mitch. >>> >>> On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 12:46, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: >>> >>> We have an ongoing problem of system bloat.? Linux laptops with 8G of RAM >>> aren't doing much more than laptops with 96M of RAM did 25 years ago.? Yes we >>> have new features such as Bluetooth and integrated controls for pausing audio >>> etc but that sort of thing doesn't justify 80* more RAM. >>> >>> I think that a way of alleviating this problem is to gamify it.? Make a >>> contest to find the best reduction of memory in commonly used FOSS programs >>> and give recognition at the next Everything Open conference.? Reduction can be >>> by optimising the source of a program, optimising configuration, or developing >>> a way of easily using alternative less memory hungry programs. >>> >>> Give the best contestants small trophys (a quick Google suggests that's $20 >>> including delivery) and everyone who does something noteworthy a mention on >>> the web site. >>> >>> I think this would be easy to run, entertaining for delegates, and good for >>> the community. >>> >>> What do you think? >>> >>> >>> PS I tried sending this directly to the council but hit an SPF problem. >>> >>> -- >>> My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ >>> My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >>> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >>> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From info at petermoulding.com Fri Jan 5 15:37:44 2024 From: info at petermoulding.com (Info) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 15:37:44 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: <241fac18-db26-4aa8-a0d4-ff93308a91f6@petermoulding.com> To me, it is valid to exclude all third party scripts as they are not a part of your agreement with the Web site. On 5/1/24 13:52, David Lloyd via linux-aus wrote: > > I wonder if there's a repository which describes "what sites need which > JavaScript to not break" so that people could run `NoScripts` but not > have to always worry that "My Favourite Site That Uses React" doesn't > break unexpectedly; a bit like the TypeScript repositories that let one > download TS definitions so you wouldn't have to make them up all by > one's self? Or even, the common "virus databases" (after all, the things > we want to get rid of with NoScripts are almost virus look, or at least > intrusive). > > DSL > > On 1/2/2024 7:28 PM, Cameron Simpson via linux-aus wrote: >> On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au wrote: >>> On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: >>>> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads by >>>> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. >>>> Make >>>> Noscript style controls standard built in. >>> >>> What does NoScript break?? We need documentation on this, and maybe some >>> changes to defaults of OS installs. >> >> NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are >> totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg >> news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you >> turn on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD >> sites eg CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third >> parties (eg something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I >> had to visit it some years back). >> >> NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS >> sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). >> >> But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from >> various places for various sites. >> >> I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user >> admin pain. >> >> Cheers, >> Cameron Simpson >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From jwoithe at just42.net Fri Jan 5 17:16:27 2024 From: jwoithe at just42.net (Jonathan Woithe) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 16:46:27 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <24009262.ouqheUzb2q@xev> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 17:17, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Jonathan (or others from council), if there's a preferred format for such > proposals, please let me know. There's no fixed template for things like this. I suggest creating a simple document which clearly outlines the idea, the people behind it, the motivation, and any logistic and implementation ideas there may be at the time of submission. In effect, provide Council with as much information as is available at the time in a form that makes it easy to read and understand. Regards jonathan From russell at coker.com.au Fri Jan 5 21:50:33 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 21:50:33 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <591edd71-5008-4f4d-8298-902365d7093d@petermoulding.com> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <743049102.1542854.1704428373850@connect.xfinity.com> <591edd71-5008-4f4d-8298-902365d7093d@petermoulding.com> Message-ID: <3376633.usfYGdeWWP@xev> On Friday, 5 January 2024 15:35:41 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: > I use valgrind for C. I do not know if there is an equivalent for other > languages. Valgrind is good for finding bugs in memory usage, but isn't designed to find inefficiencies. Allocate one byte less than needed and Valgrind can tell you, allocate 1M more than needed and it won't. It will tell you about memory that was still allocated when the program exited, this can be memory that was leaked but also could be a case of "exit without calling free() so that paged out memory doesn't get paged in before exit". -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From info at petermoulding.com Sat Jan 6 09:29:11 2024 From: info at petermoulding.com (Info) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 09:29:11 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <3376633.usfYGdeWWP@xev> References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <743049102.1542854.1704428373850@connect.xfinity.com> <591edd71-5008-4f4d-8298-902365d7093d@petermoulding.com> <3376633.usfYGdeWWP@xev> Message-ID: "exit without calling free() so that paged out memory doesn't get paged in before exit" Memory in use will not be paged out and if it is freed immediately after use, there is no paging problem. There are also ways to reuse memory efficiently. The varies approaches are language dependent. They were not taught in any of the programming classes I attended outside of those I ran. Perhaps there could be training for people who help with open source code but may not have the experience to pick up that type of problem. On one Linux, I found the Bluetooth icon on the tool bar used 15 MB. Switching off Bluetooth using the icon did not free up memory. I deleted the whole of Bluetooth as it was not needed. There must be a way to have the on/off option use less than a megabyte and only load all the settings windows etc if the option is on. On 5/1/24 21:50, Russell Coker wrote: > On Friday, 5 January 2024 15:35:41 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: >> I use valgrind for C. I do not know if there is an equivalent for other >> languages. > > Valgrind is good for finding bugs in memory usage, but isn't designed to find > inefficiencies. Allocate one byte less than needed and Valgrind can tell you, > allocate 1M more than needed and it won't. It will tell you about memory that > was still allocated when the program exited, this can be memory that was > leaked but also could be a case of "exit without calling free() so that paged > out memory doesn't get paged in before exit". > From blakjak at blakjak.net Sat Jan 6 11:10:49 2024 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 13:10:49 +1300 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <0856BE7F-7478-4B36-B843-FB5E542BEB0C@blakjak.net> References: <0856BE7F-7478-4B36-B843-FB5E542BEB0C@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <41D43DF1-5833-455D-ACE9-4A2A8AC075F1@blakjak.net> Blah, I don't send list traffic from my mobile often enough. As below.. -------- Original Message -------- From: Mark Foster Sent: 6 January 2024 1:08:25?pm NZDT To: Info Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] contest proposal If the web site is literally causing you to load said scripts, I'd say that the website has an expectation you will load them as part of your user experience and there is no 'agreement' in the way you mean it here. If you choose to use NoScript or other means to block elements of a website (usually third-party elements that provide for user tracking, profiling, or third party integrations) then that's "at your own risk". There's plenty of websites I simply avoid if I don't have NoScript and other tools active for (Privacy Badger for example) but it requires enough cloo to know which scripts you are happy to run vs what functionality you are willing to sacrifice, not something for the average user. Mark. On 5 January 2024 5:37:44?pm NZDT, Info via linux-aus wrote: >To me, it is valid to exclude all third party scripts as they are not a part of your agreement with the Web site. > >On 5/1/24 13:52, David Lloyd via linux-aus wrote: >> >> I wonder if there's a repository which describes "what sites need which >> JavaScript to not break" so that people could run `NoScripts` but not >> have to always worry that "My Favourite Site That Uses React" doesn't >> break unexpectedly; a bit like the TypeScript repositories that let one >> download TS definitions so you wouldn't have to make them up all by >> one's self? Or even, the common "virus databases" (after all, the things >> we want to get rid of with NoScripts are almost virus look, or at least >> intrusive). >> >> DSL >> >> On 1/2/2024 7:28 PM, Cameron Simpson via linux-aus wrote: >>> On 01Jan2024 14:14, russell at coker.com.au wrote: >>>> On Monday, 1 January 2024 13:18:40 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: >>>>> Use Firefox as an example. Installing NoScript reduces all overheads by >>>>> heaps. Gone is most of the spyware, trackware, and general junkware. >>>>> Make >>>>> Noscript style controls standard built in. >>>> >>>> What does NoScript break?? We need documentation on this, and maybe some >>>> changes to defaults of OS installs. >>> >>> NoScripts breaks lots of stuff, largely because many sites (a) are >>> totally dependent on JavaScript for the basics (there are eg >>> news/magazine sites which don't even render article text unless you >>> turn on some of their JS) and (b) some sites, particularly TV VOD >>> sites eg CBS which pull JS from a frankly obscene number of third >>> parties (eg something like 20 different sources for CBS when last I >>> had to visit it some years back). >>> >>> NoScript lets you enable (permanently and temporarily) various JS >>> sources and also disable permanently (hi facebook and google analytics). >>> >>> But having a functional web does require one to whitelist some JS from >>> various places for various sites. >>> >>> I run NoScript in my firefox, and I love it. But there's per-user >>> admin pain. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Cameron Simpson >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >>> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > >_______________________________________________ >linux-aus mailing list >linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > >To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -- Sent from a mobile device. -- Sent from a mobile device. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Sat Jan 6 14:59:21 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 14:59:21 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia Message-ID: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? A friend needs something small like 4G of RAM and 20G of storage for commercial use running a LAMP stack. The code to run is all PHP so ARM is fine. I've had years of good experience with Linode (particularly since they switched to SSD storage) and they have a DC in Sydney, $24/month for a VM with 4G of RAM and 80G of storage. AWS is known to be solid, for reserved instances paid up front for a year a t4g.medium (ARM VM with 4G of RAM) costs $218 per annum plus $19.20 per month for storage. AWS also has extra costs for IOPS to EBS storage and for data transfer. So seems likely to be more expensive than a straight $24/month fee from Linode. The Oracle Cloud has all this under the "Free tier". But it likes to stop free tier VMs that it conmsiders "unused" (inbound ssh connections multiple times a day and ongoing jabber communication counts as "unused") once a year and the management interface is one of the most painful things I've encountered. It's the first time I had to document how to login to a service. Anything else to consider? -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From ianbrown78 at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 15:03:13 2024 From: ianbrown78 at gmail.com (Ian Brown) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 14:03:13 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: Hi Russell, I have had really good experience with Binary Lane over the last few years. The VMs are rock solid and cheap as chips. I have a few VMs with them running LAMP and haven't cracked the $30 p/mth mark yet. https://www.binarylane.com.au/vps-hosting/linux-vps I hope that helps. Cheers, Ian On Sat, Jan 6, 2024, 13:59 Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? A friend needs > something > small like 4G of RAM and 20G of storage for commercial use running a LAMP > stack. The code to run is all PHP so ARM is fine. > > I've had years of good experience with Linode (particularly since they > switched to SSD storage) and they have a DC in Sydney, $24/month for a VM > with > 4G of RAM and 80G of storage. > > AWS is known to be solid, for reserved instances paid up front for a year > a > t4g.medium (ARM VM with 4G of RAM) costs $218 per annum plus $19.20 per > month > for storage. AWS also has extra costs for IOPS to EBS storage and for > data > transfer. So seems likely to be more expensive than a straight $24/month > fee > from Linode. > > The Oracle Cloud has all this under the "Free tier". But it likes to stop > free tier VMs that it conmsiders "unused" (inbound ssh connections > multiple > times a day and ongoing jabber communication counts as "unused") once a > year > and the management interface is one of the most painful things I've > encountered. It's the first time I had to document how to login to a > service. > > Anything else to consider? > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Sat Jan 6 15:31:00 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 15:31:00 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: References: <2337443.n0HT0TaD9V@cupcakke> <3376633.usfYGdeWWP@xev> Message-ID: <2259823.HovnAMPojK@xev> On Saturday, 6 January 2024 09:29:11 AEDT Info via linux-aus wrote: > "exit without calling free() so that paged out memory doesn't get paged in > before exit" Memory in use will not be paged out and if it is freed > immediately after use, there is no paging problem. Memory that is only used for initialisation or used for features of the program that are not selected is very common. > On one Linux, I found the Bluetooth icon on the tool bar used 15 MB. > Switching off Bluetooth using the icon did not free up memory. I deleted > the whole of Bluetooth as it was not needed. There must be a way to have > the on/off option use less than a megabyte and only load all the settings > windows etc if the option is on. One would hope that if you turned off Bluetooth in hardware settings the system would detect that and shut down the applet. I think that systemd is heading in that direction. If you do a Mobian install on a PinePhonePro with Plasma Mobile then all the KDE stuff is started as Systemd units, but this doesn't happen with the desktop version of KDE on Debian/Unstable. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Sat Jan 6 15:39:10 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 15:39:10 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: <2540865.TLnPLrj5Ze@xev> On Saturday, 6 January 2024 15:03:13 AEDT Ian Brown via linux-aus wrote: > I have had really good experience with Binary Lane over the last few years. > The VMs are rock solid and cheap as chips. > I have a few VMs with them running LAMP and haven't cracked the $30 p/mth > mark yet. > > https://www.binarylane.com.au/vps-hosting/linux-vps Thanks for that recommendation, I had previously had Binary Lane recommended about a decade ago and 2 recommendations a decade apart carries a lot of weight. $15/month for 4G RAM and 60G of storage is very good, cheaper than Linode and clearly cheaper than AWS. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz Sat Jan 6 15:44:56 2024 From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 15:44:56 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: <87il475auv.fsf@linuxpenguins.xyz> Ian Brown via linux-aus writes: > I have had really good experience with Binary Lane over the last few years. > The VMs are rock solid and cheap as chips. > I have a few VMs with them running LAMP and haven't cracked the $30 p/mth > mark yet. > > https://www.binarylane.com.au/vps-hosting/linux-vps > > I hope that helps. A while back I found https://www.vultr.com/ to be the cheapest - they have sites in Melbourne and Sydney. But it looks like binarylane might be even cheaper (and also bill in AUD instead of USD). Perhaps I should move my VM over. -- Brian May @ Linux Penguins From timwhite88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 15:47:13 2024 From: timwhite88 at gmail.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 12:47:13 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: <2540865.TLnPLrj5Ze@xev> References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> <2540865.TLnPLrj5Ze@xev> Message-ID: I would also recommend Binarylane. They are on the same platform as Mammoth (https://www.mammoth.com.au/), but without the hand holding support. I use them for a number of servers, and never have an issue. Be aware, their support isn't 24/7, and they expect you to be technical. If you're technical, it's perfect! Tim On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 12:39, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > On Saturday, 6 January 2024 15:03:13 AEDT Ian Brown via linux-aus wrote: > > I have had really good experience with Binary Lane over the last few > years. > > The VMs are rock solid and cheap as chips. > > I have a few VMs with them running LAMP and haven't cracked the $30 p/mth > > mark yet. > > > > https://www.binarylane.com.au/vps-hosting/linux-vps > > Thanks for that recommendation, I had previously had Binary Lane > recommended > about a decade ago and 2 recommendations a decade apart carries a lot of > weight. > > $15/month for 4G RAM and 60G of storage is very good, cheaper than Linode > and > clearly cheaper than AWS. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benny at lonnborn.com.au Sat Jan 6 16:11:14 2024 From: benny at lonnborn.com.au (Benny Lonnborn) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 16:11:14 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> <2540865.TLnPLrj5Ze@xev> Message-ID: <7b1c37a8-22c8-300c-743a-100d3d28e964@lonnborn.com.au> I have used Binarylane for many years and can highly recommend them. Running four commercial server there, I have had no issues with them. You need to know what you are doing, no support which is fine. Their backup system is brilliant, it has got me out of problems a couple of times. Benny Tim via linux-aus wrote on 06-Jan-24 15:47: > I would also recommend Binarylane. They are on the same platform as > Mammoth (https://www.mammoth.com.au/), but without the hand holding > support. I use them for a number of servers, and never have an issue. > Be aware, their support isn't 24/7, and they expect you to be > technical. If you're technical, it's perfect! > > Tim > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 12:39, Russell Coker via linux-aus > > > wrote: > > On Saturday, 6 January 2024 15:03:13 AEDT Ian Brown via linux-aus > wrote: > > I have had really good experience with Binary Lane over the last > few years. > > The VMs are rock solid and cheap as chips. > > I have a few VMs with them running LAMP and haven't cracked the > $30 p/mth > > mark yet. > > > > https://www.binarylane.com.au/vps-hosting/linux-vps > > Thanks for that recommendation, I had previously had Binary Lane > recommended > about a decade ago and 2 recommendations a decade apart carries a > lot of > weight. > > $15/month for 4G RAM and 60G of storage is very good, cheaper than > Linode and > clearly cheaper than AWS. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -- Benny L?nnborn LONNBORN Technology Solutions PO Box 1215 Surrey Hills Nth 3127 w: www.lonnborn.com.au e: benny at lonnborn.au m: +61 (0) 418 565 407 ------------------------------------------ CAUTION - This message is intended for the addressee named above. It may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you must: - Not use, copy, distribute or disclose it to anyone other than the addressee; - Notify the sender via return email; and - Delete the message (and any related attachments) from your computer immediately. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4007 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From mike.carden at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 17:24:24 2024 From: mike.carden at gmail.com (Mike Carden) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 17:24:24 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 14:59, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? > The numbers being shared here seem... a bit large. Okay, my GCP VM is in the USA, but I started it in about 2015 and it has had 100% uptime. It's a small one with 1GB of RAM and 10GB of disk, but it has served me well as an encrypted git repo for my password store and on occasion as a Quassel IRC server. The cost? It has fluctuated between 13 and 20 Australian Cents per month. Last month it was $0.13 -- MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ianbrown78 at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 17:33:10 2024 From: ianbrown78 at gmail.com (Ian Brown) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 16:33:10 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: That sounds like you are running a f1.micro on the free tier to me. These are great for small workloads such as a git repo. But anything more CPU intensive and you will see the steal values in top go through the roof as they are only allocated 1/4 of a single CPU core. For context, my job is currently as a senior cloud engineer in GCP. On Sat, Jan 6, 2024, 16:25 Mike Carden via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 14:59, Russell Coker via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? >> > > The numbers being shared here seem... a bit large. > > Okay, my GCP VM is in the USA, but I started it in about 2015 and it has > had 100% uptime. It's a small one with 1GB of RAM and 10GB of disk, but it > has served me well as an encrypted git repo for my password store and on > occasion as a Quassel IRC server. > > The cost? It has fluctuated between 13 and 20 Australian Cents per month. > Last month it was $0.13 > > -- > MC > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwoithe at just42.net Sat Jan 6 17:49:22 2024 From: jwoithe at just42.net (Jonathan Woithe) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 17:19:22 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] contest proposal In-Reply-To: <41D43DF1-5833-455D-ACE9-4A2A8AC075F1@blakjak.net> References: <0856BE7F-7478-4B36-B843-FB5E542BEB0C@blakjak.net> <41D43DF1-5833-455D-ACE9-4A2A8AC075F1@blakjak.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 06, 2024 at 01:10:49PM +1300, Mark Foster via linux-aus wrote: > There's plenty of websites I simply avoid if I don't have NoScript and > other tools active for (Privacy Badger for example) but it requires enough > cloo to know which scripts you are happy to run vs what functionality you > are willing to sacrifice, not something for the average user. Yes, pretty much this. I love NoScript, but it breaks *most* websites to varying degrees. I make allowances for this. The average user would not bother, and arguably rightly so. NoScript is a great low level tool for those who understand what it does and how to set it up optimally for their use case. For the typical user of the web - who just wants things to work - a more refined approach is required. Regards jonathn From cherieellisnz at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 15:02:18 2024 From: cherieellisnz at gmail.com (Cherie Ellis) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 17:02:18 +1300 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem In-Reply-To: <20240105003801.4915a74b@gnosticus.teln.shikadi.net> References: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> <20240105003801.4915a74b@gnosticus.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: Adam x2 Cherie Ellis +64 21 293 9746 On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 03:38, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > > I got the above when trying to send email to the council. The Linux > > > Australia list server needs to whitelist 66.111.4.238 for SPF > > > checks so that the council at linux.org.au forwarding address works > > > correctly. > > > > or they can appoint admins who knows what they are doing, as they > > surely would have set up SRS to avoid those problems for all > > forwarding like everyone else does. > > I've never understood the need to insult volunteers, when they > graciously donate their time to keep things running that the rest of us > are free to use without having to lift a finger. > > If you think they could be doing a better job, maybe you could volunteer > some of your free time in return to help them out? > > Cheers, > Adam. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From euan at dekock.net Sat Jan 6 22:16:17 2024 From: euan at dekock.net (Euan de Kock) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 19:16:17 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: I'm using the AWS lightsail instances for running a bunch of small servers. They cost between USD 3.50 for a very small instance (512Mb) all the way up to about USD 160 for a 32Gb one. A 4Gb instance is USD 20 per month. There's a few extra costs if you want a fixed IP and DNS hosting etc, but it's pretty competitive. Regards, Euan. On Sat, 6 Jan 2024, 11:59 Russell Coker via linux-aus, < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? A friend needs > something > small like 4G of RAM and 20G of storage for commercial use running a LAMP > stack. The code to run is all PHP so ARM is fine. > > I've had years of good experience with Linode (particularly since they > switched to SSD storage) and they have a DC in Sydney, $24/month for a VM > with > 4G of RAM and 80G of storage. > > AWS is known to be solid, for reserved instances paid up front for a year > a > t4g.medium (ARM VM with 4G of RAM) costs $218 per annum plus $19.20 per > month > for storage. AWS also has extra costs for IOPS to EBS storage and for > data > transfer. So seems likely to be more expensive than a straight $24/month > fee > from Linode. > > The Oracle Cloud has all this under the "Free tier". But it likes to stop > free tier VMs that it conmsiders "unused" (inbound ssh connections > multiple > times a day and ongoing jabber communication counts as "unused") once a > year > and the management interface is one of the most painful things I've > encountered. It's the first time I had to document how to login to a > service. > > Anything else to consider? > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaclang at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 23:32:24 2024 From: almaclang at gmail.com (Al Maclang) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 23:32:24 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: Hello Team, I suggest exploring the Oracle Cloud, which offers a free version. You can find more information at the following link: https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/ Additionally, this YouTube link provides further insights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWeFD4NNF5o Please note that this service is completely free, with no additional or hidden costs, and it remains free indefinitely. Kind regards, Al On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 22:16, Euan de Kock via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > I'm using the AWS lightsail instances for running a bunch of small > servers. They cost between USD 3.50 for a very small instance (512Mb) all > the way up to about USD 160 for a 32Gb one. A 4Gb instance is USD 20 per > month. > > There's a few extra costs if you want a fixed IP and DNS hosting etc, but > it's pretty competitive. > > Regards, > > Euan. > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2024, 11:59 Russell Coker via linux-aus, < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? A friend needs >> something >> small like 4G of RAM and 20G of storage for commercial use running a LAMP >> stack. The code to run is all PHP so ARM is fine. >> >> I've had years of good experience with Linode (particularly since they >> switched to SSD storage) and they have a DC in Sydney, $24/month for a VM >> with >> 4G of RAM and 80G of storage. >> >> AWS is known to be solid, for reserved instances paid up front for a year >> a >> t4g.medium (ARM VM with 4G of RAM) costs $218 per annum plus $19.20 per >> month >> for storage. AWS also has extra costs for IOPS to EBS storage and for >> data >> transfer. So seems likely to be more expensive than a straight $24/month >> fee >> from Linode. >> >> The Oracle Cloud has all this under the "Free tier". But it likes to >> stop >> free tier VMs that it conmsiders "unused" (inbound ssh connections >> multiple >> times a day and ongoing jabber communication counts as "unused") once a >> year >> and the management interface is one of the most painful things I've >> encountered. It's the first time I had to document how to login to a >> service. >> >> Anything else to consider? >> >> -- >> My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ >> My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaclang at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 00:06:28 2024 From: almaclang at gmail.com (Al Maclang) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 00:06:28 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Cheap VMs in Australia In-Reply-To: References: <2626452.9Mp67QZiUf@xev> Message-ID: Hello Team, Additionally, if you are considering a commercial tier, I recommend Oracle Cloud, as it is more cost-effective compared to other competitive cloud providers. For more information, please refer to the link below: https://www.oracle.com/au/cloud/pricing/ Thank you, and I wish you a blessed week ahead. Kind regards, Al On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 23:32, Al Maclang wrote: > Hello Team, > > I suggest exploring the Oracle Cloud, which offers a free version. You can > find more information at the following link: > https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/ > > Additionally, this YouTube link provides further insights: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWeFD4NNF5o > > Please note that this service is completely free, with no additional or > hidden costs, and it remains free indefinitely. > > Kind regards, > Al > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 at 22:16, Euan de Kock via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> I'm using the AWS lightsail instances for running a bunch of small >> servers. They cost between USD 3.50 for a very small instance (512Mb) all >> the way up to about USD 160 for a 32Gb one. A 4Gb instance is USD 20 per >> month. >> >> There's a few extra costs if you want a fixed IP and DNS hosting etc, but >> it's pretty competitive. >> >> Regards, >> >> Euan. >> >> On Sat, 6 Jan 2024, 11:59 Russell Coker via linux-aus, < >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: >> >>> What are good options for cheap VMs in Australia? A friend needs >>> something >>> small like 4G of RAM and 20G of storage for commercial use running a >>> LAMP >>> stack. The code to run is all PHP so ARM is fine. >>> >>> I've had years of good experience with Linode (particularly since they >>> switched to SSD storage) and they have a DC in Sydney, $24/month for a >>> VM with >>> 4G of RAM and 80G of storage. >>> >>> AWS is known to be solid, for reserved instances paid up front for a >>> year a >>> t4g.medium (ARM VM with 4G of RAM) costs $218 per annum plus $19.20 per >>> month >>> for storage. AWS also has extra costs for IOPS to EBS storage and for >>> data >>> transfer. So seems likely to be more expensive than a straight >>> $24/month fee >>> from Linode. >>> >>> The Oracle Cloud has all this under the "Free tier". But it likes to >>> stop >>> free tier VMs that it conmsiders "unused" (inbound ssh connections >>> multiple >>> times a day and ongoing jabber communication counts as "unused") once a >>> year >>> and the management interface is one of the most painful things I've >>> encountered. It's the first time I had to document how to login to a >>> service. >>> >>> Anything else to consider? >>> >>> -- >>> My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ >>> My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> linux-aus mailing list >>> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >>> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >>> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.germaine at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 12:33:26 2024 From: s.germaine at gmail.com (Sae Ra Germaine) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 12:33:26 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Announce] Notice of Linux Australia 2024 Council Elections and AGM In-Reply-To: <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> References: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Hi Kathy, Firstly thank you for asking these questions they are very important ones to think of, especially for an organisation like Linux Australia. Please note that these answers are from my point of view only and may not reflect what stances other Council Members or what Linux Australia (Organisation) may have. I will echo some of Jonathan's answers in regards to pipeline this is not an issue unique to LA. However, what is unique to LA is the connections that the organisation has to a large number of the different types of groups, events, communities that we (LA) have supported and/or auspiced in the past. There are pools of people that we may be able to connect to, to reduce the "load". I'm a person that strongly believes in partnerships and reduction of duplication of activities, LA is partially about reducing the administrative burden on organisations so they can focus on what they do best. Linux Australia in the past has connected with key advocacy groups to advocate for government changes and I would love to see this continue. I was also amazed and excited by the number of new attendees (and volunteers!) that came to Everything Open. The fact that 30% of attendees had never been to a previous LCA was a great affirmation that the move to an Everything Open model can help bring those who aren't specifically Linux focussed into the fold. As a person that contributes to Open but not to Linux, I have always struggled to get support from my employer to attend the conference, but now I struggle less. We had volunteers who had never heard about Linux Australia, LCA or Everything Open before put their hand up to volunteer because they heard about the conference from our partner organisations. The great thing is, they want to come back! I want to share that magic that I felt all the way back in 2008 when Donna got up on stage to host LCA Melbourne. That conference changed me to become the person I am today. I wouldn't have put my hand up over and over again for all these years if this community didn't have such a positive impact on me or my career. I also want to be able to share my love for this community with others but they were always in the "Open" space but not the "Linux" space. We are making moves in the right direction. I'm quite heartened by the number of folx that have put their hats in the ring for a spot on the Council. COVID has drained many of us but I also see a glimmer of hope of people stepping up again after a much needed rest. I think LA needs to be better at expressing what type of help is needed but it is a chicken or egg type of situation where we need to spend time to put together a clear objective on what we need but we also have to spend time "Doing all the things" at the same time. With regards to your question regarding Hired help. I've always been in two minds about this. On the one hand I would love to be able to see the organisation be run as a not-for-profit organisation that does bigger things like advocacy, professional development, and grants programs. But on the other hand I think that would remove the "Grass-roots" nature and feel of Linux Australia. We pride ourselves on grass roots and being less corporate. I feel that if we go down the paid route we would lose that. We would also need to look into different funding models (likely more corporate ones) to be able to afford the and all the HR functions that come with hiring. This would likely also include charging for membership and for this we would need to come up with a value proposition, energy, and effort to be able to provide value and fight for a slice of a member's income. Just a quick jump back to partnerships though, one area I wouldn't object to is seeing from our partners if there is an opportunity to share a paid resource across the organisations such as a comms person. Comms is getting more and more difficult with the disperse nature of where our community is but maybe a comms person would be able to help gather a strategy and assist with delivering it. Lastly I wouldn't mind looking into having arrangements with law and financial investment advice consultancies. There have been a number of issues that have come up over the years that I think LA could have benefitted with some legal advice and with the significant financial transactions that occur year to year for conferences, a better way to invest for that rainy day. Strategically I think we are heading in the right track. We spent the last few years coping with COVID and that was not an easy feat. Many organisations struggled, but we cut where we could, managed to get out the other side of lockdowns and still managed to run a few face to face conferences in the last year. We also spent the last few years reaching out to the community through online conferences and making sure they had a connection point to the community. The next few years are crucial for sustainability. We need to continue on from the success of Everything Open and build on that. Having said that, we also need to take advantage of this new energy from people putting up their hands and starting to look internally and plug some of the holes that may have come up. I would like to see our constitution refreshed to reflect the newer organisations that we are. But that requires engagement from the community. So my request to the community is: Please engage just a smidge more. Ask the questions (constructively), contribute to providing answers, and if Council puts forward changes to the constitution, please read them, suggest feedback, and most of all vote. LA doesn't ask for much each year, they keep the lights on so that our prized conferences keep running. But it's hard to keep relevant if we can't get the votes to make changes. Apologies for what has turned out to be a rather large email. But I hope that this provides some answers as to why I've put my hat in the ring again. Please do feel free to reach out and ask more questions if you have any or would like to discuss any and all things LA Lastly just wanted to declare where I have or am also involved: - Currently the Deputy CEO and Manager, Member & Academic Services at CAVAL - Ordinary Council Member of Linux Australia (until the AGM, who knows after!) - President of VALA (https://www.vala.org.au/) - Co-Chair ofSession Selection Committee for Everything Open - Member of the General Advisory Standing Committee for auDA ( https://www.auda.org.au/) - Past Conference Core Team Organiser for LCA (2012, 2016, 2021,2022), Everything Open 2023 and volunteer for many others. Thanks, Sae Ra -- Sae Ra Germaine (pronounce ) (She/Her) On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:01, Kathy Reid via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Thanks Joel for the announcement. > > I'd love to hear from potential Council Members around some of the > challenges I see for Linux Australia itself, and the community more > broadly, for example some of the actions or programs that might be > undertaken in 2024 to address them. > > ## Pipeline challenges > > Across the board with open* in Australia, we are observing pipeline > challenges - that is, we seem to be lacking "the next generation" of > open source advocates - those willing to donate their time, talent and > treasure (ref: Tiffany Ferris) to advance the organisation's goals. This > is evident in the number of people nominating for Council, the broader > group of people willing to "pitch in" and provide help with all the > things the organisation does [0], the pipelines for organising flagship > events such as Everything Open and PyConAU etc. > > How do nominees intend to address the pipeline challenges, with specific > reference to goals, activities or programs of work? > > ## Hired help > > For a long time (certainly since I was on Council in the mid-2010s) > there has been debate around whether Linux Australia should hire help > such as an Executive Officer role to "do more of the doing", while > Council plays a (volunteer) governance role. Other organisations, such > as Digital Rights Watch, and previously, Electronic Frontiers Australia, > have adopted this model. > > Can Linux Australia afford to go down this path, and where do nominees' > views sit on this question? > > (To be clear, I don't think LA can afford to financially, and it sets up > a schism of labour in terms of paid vs volunteer, but very interested in > the thoughts of others). > > > ## Strategic direction > > Is Linux Australia on the right track? What strategic changes do you > think are needed (if any)? How would you make these changes? > > > Kind regards, > > Kathy Reid > > > [0] https://youtu.be/ektSl_d0F6Q?si=4VuCLRl--ymy-ogk&t=311 > > > > > On 2023-12-24 22:15, Joel Addison wrote: > > Dear Linux Australia Community, > > > > Pursuant to clause (15) of the Linux Australia constitution [1] we > > hereby declare an election open and call for nominations to the Linux > > Australia Council for the term January 2024 to January 2025. > > > > All office bearer and ordinary committee member positions are open for > > Election. > > > > ## Key Information > > > > * Nominations will open from 26 December 2023 and run until 11:59pm > > 6 January 2024 (AEDT). > > * Voting will open at 01:01 AM 7 January 2024 (AEDT) and run until > > 11:59pm 14 January 2024 (AEDT). > > * Results will be ratified during the AGM held at 2:30pm Saturday > > 20 January 2024 (AEDT). > > > > To view and participate in the election please visit > > https://www.linux.org.au/ > > * Click on ?Login? located on the top right hand side of the > > page and log in. > > * Click on ?Elections?. > > * Under ?Linux Australia Council Election 2024?, click on > > ?View & Submit Nominations?. > > > > ## What do I need to do? > > > > First of all, make sure your details are correct at Linux > > Australia?s > > website [2]. If you need assistance accessing the membership portal > > please contact secretary at linux.org.au. Note that in line with common > > election conventions, new membership requests are not processed during > > the election period. > > > > If you wish to nominate yourself, identify the positions you wish to > > nominate for and get an understanding of what each position involves. > > Think about what you might bring to the role and prepare a short > > pitch. > > Then, accept the nomination you've been given by clicking the 'Accept > > nomination' link. > > > > Please note that all people elected to a position on the Council > > must provide their current residential address, as per requirements > > for NSW incorporated associations. They must also hold a Director > > identification number (director ID) as per requirements of > > organisations > > with an Australian Registered Body Number (ARBN) [3]. > > > > *You must accept your nomination to move to the next stage of the > > election process* > > > > If you wish to nominate another person for a position, you may wish to > > contact them first and have a chat to make sure they're happy being > > nominated. Then follow the 'Nominate' link to nominate them. > > > > Once voting is open, you will be able to vote for candidates. Results > > will be announced at the Linux Australia AGM to be held on 20 January > > 2024. > > > > ## Why should I nominate? > > > > Being a member of Linux Australia Council is a fun way to meet new > > people, work on exciting projects and expand your skill base. It gives > > you excellent transferable skills to help build your career, and > > allows > > you to grow your professional network. It looks great on a CV, and is > > also a chance to give back to the vibrant Linux and open source > > ecosystem in Australia and globally. If you're passionate about open > > technologies and the communities that surround them, it's a great > > opportunity to help drive and steer Australia's contribution in this > > field. > > > > ## What is the commitment required? > > > > If you are contemplating nominating for a role on Council, in addition > > to referring to the Position Descriptions provided [4], you are > > strongly > > encouraged to approach current and former council members for their > > perspective. You will find them, to a person, willing to discuss the > > roles and responsibilities in a more informal manner. > > > > The roles do require a time commitment. > > * Ordinary Council Member: a minimum of 2-3 hours per week. > > * Office bearers: 8-12 hours per week. > > Please allow for this when considering your nomination. > > > > ## Why should I run? > > > > If you?ve been nominated, or are thinking of nominating yourself, > > you > > should give the opportunity serious consideration. Being on the > > council > > is both hard and often thankless work, but it is also incredibly > > rewarding. Linux Australia can only achieve what it does by its > > members > > and helping out with the council responsibilities is a great way to > > ensure Linux Australia continues to be successful. It is also an > > opportunity to help the organisation grow, reach into new areas and to > > succeed on important topics of national relevance. > > > > As always, your feedback and questions are warmly welcomed. If you'd > > like to have a chat with anyone on Council around what it involves, > > please reach out. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Joel Addison > > President > > Linux Australia > > > > [1] http://www.linux.org.au/constitution > > [2] http://www.linux.org.au/membership > > [3] https://www.abrs.gov.au/director-identification-number > > [4] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/position-descriptions > > _______________________________________________ > > announce mailing list > > announce at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/announce > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jackson.lyndsey at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 14:54:42 2024 From: jackson.lyndsey at gmail.com (Lyndsey Jackson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 14:24:42 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Open Source AI or LLM people + projects in Australia/NZ Message-ID: Hi all, on a bit of a fact finding reach out for people or connections from people working on open AI/LLM projects. Late last year a proposal for AI Centres to help SME's adopt AI dropped. https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/artificial-intelligence-ai-adopt-program Before the holiday break I did some work on a proposal concept for agricultural value add (which is very, very broad), and I have insight into how some key groups were considering approaching it. And if you have any tech/advice/ideas/groups please let me know, I might not get a group to put a bid in but that's ok. I still want to know what's happening in open source and who is working on it. Thanks, Lyndsey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwoithe at just42.net Sun Jan 7 15:14:13 2024 From: jwoithe at just42.net (Jonathan Woithe) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 14:44:13 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] New old stock tape media to give away Message-ID: Hi all For various reasons I am in possession of the following new old stock tapes, still sealed in the original shrink wrap. 1x Sony AIT-1 SDX1-35C tape (35 GB native capacity) 24x Sony DG90P DDS (aka DAT) tapes (2 GB native capacity) 10x Imation DDS-90 DDS tapes (2 GB native capacity) 17x Sony DGD120P DDS-2 tapes (4 GB native capacity) 1x Imation DDS-120 DDS-2 tape (4 GB native capacity) I also have a Sony DGD15CL DDS head cleaning tape, used 42 times between 2002 and 2007. I can't imagine that anyone has any use for these. However, before sending them to landfill I thought I'd mention their availability in case someone needs them (or knows someone who does). Please contact me off-list within the next week or so if interested. Location is Adelaide. I do not have a DDS or DDS-2 drive in case anyone was wondering. Regards jonathan From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Sun Jan 7 16:00:39 2024 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 16:00:39 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Open Source AI or LLM people + projects in Australia/NZ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170a415f-28db-4f22-8a5f-1b87334128b8@kathyreid.id.au> Hi Lyndsey, The comments here are from my personal perspective, not those of any academic or institutional affiliations I have. Firstly I want to clarify some terms. AI and machine learning is a very broad space - it's used in almost every vertical - defence, aerospace, marketing, business analytics, education and so on. A large language model (LLM) is a specific type of machine learning model that is _predictive_ and _generative_. Given a prompt, it responds with an output that best matches the prompts _based on the data it has been trained on_. Other types of machine learning models (for example, image generators like DALLE-2) use different algorithms and are trained on different types of data. If you train an LLM on a particular set of data, for example, "movies", then it will predict what it's been trained on. ## Distinguishing open source models from open source data Models are built on data. While a model can be open sourced, that isn't enough to make it "open source AI", IMHO - and the Open Source Initiative is having a broader conversation around what is meant by "open source AI" [5]. The algorithm, code, dependencies etc are required for reproducibility to make it "truly open", IMHO. The key thing to keep in mind is that models are trained on *data* - it's not so important where the model is developed, but it's really important where the data comes from (this is the focus of the movement called "data-centric AI" [0]). ## LLMs in the Australian context The challenge here for the Australian context is that many LLMs are either not trained on Australian-specific data, _or_, their predictions do not mirror the Australian context because their training set has little Australian content compared to American content. This can be specified using prompts - for example "Please create a news headline and two paragraphs of copy of an important event in Melbourne in 2002. Use Australian English." - feeding this prompt to ChatGPT (3) will use Australian spelling and Melbourne-specific landmarks. Chat GPT also seems to have some grounding in Indigenous knowledges, such as Bunjil. But if I ask ChatGPT the question "There's a bingle at Broady and the Western's chokkas back to the servo. What should I do?" then it quickly degrades to general advice, rather than context-specific suggestions ("Mate, can you turn off to Donnybrook Road or Plenty Road?"). AFAIK there are no open source, public LLMs being developed within Australia. The main academic conference for LLM work in Australia (which is considered less prestigious than international conferences such as NeurIPS [1] and ICML [2]) is the Australasian Language Technology Conference (ALTA), which I attended in December. My notes from this are public [3]. The main focus of this conference was the application of LLM technology to healthcare applications - such as mining medical records to assist health professionals in making accurate and timely diagnoses. These language models *are* being made open source, but they are smaller and much more specific than ChatGPT. Indeed, there was a lot of conversation at the conference about the *need* for a research or open source LLM in Australia because the costs of using ChatGPT and others (Claude, Bard) quickly become expensive. In summary, there is a lot of scope for creating an Australian-specific, open source LLM. AFAIK, one doesn't exit. ## Other open source LLM efforts The main open source LLM efforts are: * https://www.eleuther.ai/ * Llama 2 by Meta * https://falconllm.tii.ae/ * Mistral AI None of these efforts are Australian-based. ## Other Australian open AI efforts Many universities are tackling the AI-generated / LLM generated text issue by using AI-detection tools, primarily within the Turnitin suite. Turnitin LLC is headquartered in California, USA. From conversations I've had with archivists in Australian collection institutions, there is also a need for Australian-specific speech recognition tools - because tools like Whisper do not recognise Australian accented speech as well as other accents [4]. These tools are being used to transcribe audio visual archives. Again, a lot of this comes down to the *data* that the model is trained on. The key problem here is that Whisper was trained on 680k hours of speech data. To train a comparable model, you would need hundreds of thousands of hours of Australian-accented speech. The AusTalk archive, for example, from memory has maybe a couple of thousand hours (it's offline so I can't check). In the last week, we've also seen rapid advances in voice synthesis - with MyShell releasing OpenVoice voice cloning technology [6]. The *model* is openly available, but again, the data and algorithms and code, are not. The challenge here for Australia is - do we want to be able to clone Australian-accented voices (yeah, nah ;-). There are no Australian TTS / voice cloning efforts that are open source, AFAIK. This raises major ethical questions for the likes of the ATO that uses voice recognition (and which has been previously spoofed [7]). AI is rapidly being adopted into cybersecurity efforts, particularly in the field of adversarial AI. These capabilities are predominantly the domain of the Acronym Agencies (ASIO, DSD etc), and the folks at BSides might be useful to talk to about Australian efforts here. In terms of Australian AI institutes, there are a few: * The Data61 CSIRO National Artificial Intelligence Centre - which doesn't actually produce any AI or ML, its remit is to encourage AI adoption - https://www.csiro.au/en/work-with-us/industries/technology/National-AI-Centre * Australian Institute for Machine Learning at University of Adelaide - Research in to AI / ML - https://www.adelaide.edu.au/aiml/ * A2I2 Institute at Deakin University - https://a2i2.deakin.edu.au/ * UNSW AI Institute - https://www.unsw.edu.au/unsw-ai Invariably, the academic institutions offer various forms of (mostly postgrad) offerings, with a heavy emphasis on "engaging industry" (read: getting industry to fund AI research because the government's research funding is paltry). ## The problem of national capability and why the business adoption centres are exacerbating rather than addressing this, IMHO (I was about to write "sovereign capability" but as I was reminded, correctly, recently, sovereignty was never ceded). This all brings me to the key problem I have with the business adoption initiative. What I've outlined above is that Australia has very little national capability in AI, and even less in open source AI. What we adopt is, predominantly, American-owned AI that might then be shoe-horned into an Australian context. Sure, businesses should be looking to adopt AI to remain competitive. But the only AI they can adopt at the moment is, largely, American AI. What the business adoption initiative seeks to do is spur *adoption* rather than *development*. What I would like to see happen is the development of national AI capability, preferably in the form of open source products that can be used by Australian businesses and organisations nationally. Perhaps one of our national organisations should focus on that, rather than encouraging Australian businesses to spend money overseas ... Kind regards, Kathy Reid [0] https://dcai.csail.mit.edu/ [1] https://neurips.cc/ [2] https://icml.cc/ [3] https://blog.kathyreid.id.au/2023/12/10/alta2023/ [4] My PhD research, forthcoming [5] https://blog.opensource.org/open-source-ai-establishing-a-common-ground/ [6] https://research.myshell.ai/open-voice [7]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/16/voice-system-used-to-verify-identity-by-centrelink-can-be-fooled-by-ai On 7/1/24 14:54, Lyndsey Jackson via linux-aus wrote: > Hi all, > > on a bit of a fact finding reach out for people?or connections from > people working on open AI/LLM projects. > > Late last year a proposal for AI Centres to help SME's?adopt AI > dropped. > https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/artificial-intelligence-ai-adopt-program?Before > the holiday break I did some work on a proposal concept for > agricultural value add (which is very, very broad), and I have insight > into how some key groups were considering approaching it. > > And if you have any tech/advice/ideas/groups please let me know, I > might not get a group to put a bid in but that's ok. I still want to > know what's happening in open source and who is working on it. > > > Thanks, > > Lyndsey > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frank.grant56 at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 18:32:54 2024 From: frank.grant56 at gmail.com (Frank Grant) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 18:32:54 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Open Source AI or LLM people + projects in Australia/NZ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To cut down on costs you can run the models on your own computer using ollama and ollama -webui On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, 2:55 pm Lyndsey Jackson via linux-aus, < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Hi all, > > on a bit of a fact finding reach out for people or connections from people > working on open AI/LLM projects. > > Late last year a proposal for AI Centres to help SME's adopt AI dropped. > https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/artificial-intelligence-ai-adopt-program Before > the holiday break I did some work on a proposal concept for agricultural > value add (which is very, very broad), and I have insight into how some key > groups were considering approaching it. > > And if you have any tech/advice/ideas/groups please let me know, I might > not get a group to put a bid in but that's ok. I still want to know what's > happening in open source and who is working on it. > > > Thanks, > > Lyndsey > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jackson.lyndsey at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 19:47:27 2024 From: jackson.lyndsey at gmail.com (Lyndsey Jackson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 19:17:27 +1030 Subject: [Linux-aus] Open Source AI or LLM people + projects in Australia/NZ In-Reply-To: <170a415f-28db-4f22-8a5f-1b87334128b8@kathyreid.id.au> References: <170a415f-28db-4f22-8a5f-1b87334128b8@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Thanks Kathy for the thoughtful answer. And thanks Frank for the tip. Lots of really helpful and insightful perspectives Kathy I really appreciate it. Amazee in the Drupal community are building LLM to Drupal capability but it's still expensive to run. The localisation and regionalisation of LLMs is one of the areas I was thinking of for agriculture and regions, and I've been thinking about ways to train people in how to use technology while creating crowdsourced LLM's at the same time. The article I linked to has an example of a model for agricultural inputs and I think building and breaking down what is happening is a good way to approach the agtech ecosystem. It feels like a strange grant to be honest. Which is why I wondered if there was anyone in the technical community that had come across any other bids. The discussions I've had have been with a group involving the Australian Institute for Machine Learning and one of the big 4 - and their model on how to make the numbers work (cash and in kind contribution) was ... interesting. There are other priority areas outside of agriculture, that's just the one I was interested in. Lyndsey On Sun, Jan 7, 2024 at 3:31?PM Kathy Reid via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Hi Lyndsey, > > The comments here are from my personal perspective, not those of any > academic or institutional affiliations I have. > > Firstly I want to clarify some terms. AI and machine learning is a very > broad space - it's used in almost every vertical - defence, aerospace, > marketing, business analytics, education and so on. A large language model > (LLM) is a specific type of machine learning model that is _predictive_ and > _generative_. Given a prompt, it responds with an output that best matches > the prompts _based on the data it has been trained on_. Other types of > machine learning models (for example, image generators like DALLE-2) use > different algorithms and are trained on different types of data. If you > train an LLM on a particular set of data, for example, "movies", then it > will predict what it's been trained on. > > ## Distinguishing open source models from open source data > > Models are built on data. > > While a model can be open sourced, that isn't enough to make it "open > source AI", IMHO - and the Open Source Initiative is having a broader > conversation around what is meant by "open source AI" [5]. The algorithm, > code, dependencies etc are required for reproducibility to make it "truly > open", IMHO. > > The key thing to keep in mind is that models are trained on *data* - it's > not so important where the model is developed, but it's really important > where the data comes from (this is the focus of the movement called > "data-centric AI" [0]). > > ## LLMs in the Australian context > > The challenge here for the Australian context is that many LLMs are either > not trained on Australian-specific data, _or_, their predictions do not > mirror the Australian context because their training set has little > Australian content compared to American content. This can be specified > using prompts - for example "Please create a news headline and two > paragraphs of copy of an important event in Melbourne in 2002. Use > Australian English." - feeding this prompt to ChatGPT (3) will use > Australian spelling and Melbourne-specific landmarks. Chat GPT also seems > to have some grounding in Indigenous knowledges, such as Bunjil. But if I > ask ChatGPT the question "There's a bingle at Broady and the Western's > chokkas back to the servo. What should I do?" then it quickly degrades to > general advice, rather than context-specific suggestions ("Mate, can you > turn off to Donnybrook Road or Plenty Road?"). > > AFAIK there are no open source, public LLMs being developed within > Australia. > > The main academic conference for LLM work in Australia (which is > considered less prestigious than international conferences such as NeurIPS > [1] and ICML [2]) is the Australasian Language Technology Conference > (ALTA), which I attended in December. My notes from this are public [3]. > The main focus of this conference was the application of LLM technology to > healthcare applications - such as mining medical records to assist health > professionals in making accurate and timely diagnoses. These language > models *are* being made open source, but they are smaller and much more > specific than ChatGPT. > > Indeed, there was a lot of conversation at the conference about the *need* > for a research or open source LLM in Australia because the costs of using > ChatGPT and others (Claude, Bard) quickly become expensive. > > In summary, there is a lot of scope for creating an Australian-specific, > open source LLM. AFAIK, one doesn't exit. > > ## Other open source LLM efforts > > The main open source LLM efforts are: > > * https://www.eleuther.ai/ > > * Llama 2 by Meta > > * https://falconllm.tii.ae/ > > * Mistral AI > > None of these efforts are Australian-based. > > ## Other Australian open AI efforts > > Many universities are tackling the AI-generated / LLM generated text issue > by using AI-detection tools, primarily within the Turnitin suite. Turnitin > LLC is headquartered in California, USA. > > From conversations I've had with archivists in Australian collection > institutions, there is also a need for Australian-specific speech > recognition tools - because tools like Whisper do not recognise Australian > accented speech as well as other accents [4]. These tools are being used to > transcribe audio visual archives. Again, a lot of this comes down to the > *data* that the model is trained on. The key problem here is that Whisper > was trained on 680k hours of speech data. To train a comparable model, you > would need hundreds of thousands of hours of Australian-accented speech. > The AusTalk archive, for example, from memory has maybe a couple of > thousand hours (it's offline so I can't check). > > In the last week, we've also seen rapid advances in voice synthesis - with > MyShell releasing OpenVoice voice cloning technology [6]. The *model* is > openly available, but again, the data and algorithms and code, are not. The > challenge here for Australia is - do we want to be able to clone > Australian-accented voices (yeah, nah ;-). There are no Australian TTS / > voice cloning efforts that are open source, AFAIK. This raises major > ethical questions for the likes of the ATO that uses voice recognition (and > which has been previously spoofed [7]). > > AI is rapidly being adopted into cybersecurity efforts, particularly in > the field of adversarial AI. These capabilities are predominantly the > domain of the Acronym Agencies (ASIO, DSD etc), and the folks at BSides > might be useful to talk to about Australian efforts here. > > In terms of Australian AI institutes, there are a few: > > * The Data61 CSIRO National Artificial Intelligence Centre - which doesn't > actually produce any AI or ML, its remit is to encourage AI adoption - > https://www.csiro.au/en/work-with-us/industries/technology/National-AI-Centre > > * Australian Institute for Machine Learning at University of Adelaide - > Research in to AI / ML - https://www.adelaide.edu.au/aiml/ > > * A2I2 Institute at Deakin University - https://a2i2.deakin.edu.au/ > > * UNSW AI Institute - https://www.unsw.edu.au/unsw-ai > > Invariably, the academic institutions offer various forms of (mostly > postgrad) offerings, with a heavy emphasis on "engaging industry" (read: > getting industry to fund AI research because the government's research > funding is paltry). > > ## The problem of national capability and why the business adoption > centres are exacerbating rather than addressing this, IMHO > > (I was about to write "sovereign capability" but as I was reminded, > correctly, recently, sovereignty was never ceded). > > This all brings me to the key problem I have with the business adoption > initiative. What I've outlined above is that Australia has very little > national capability in AI, and even less in open source AI. What we adopt > is, predominantly, American-owned AI that might then be shoe-horned into an > Australian context. Sure, businesses should be looking to adopt AI to > remain competitive. But the only AI they can adopt at the moment is, > largely, American AI. > > What the business adoption initiative seeks to do is spur *adoption* > rather than *development*. What I would like to see happen is the > development of national AI capability, preferably in the form of open > source products that can be used by Australian businesses and organisations > nationally. Perhaps one of our national organisations should focus on that, > rather than encouraging Australian businesses to spend money overseas ... > > Kind regards, > > Kathy Reid > > > [0] https://dcai.csail.mit.edu/ > > [1] https://neurips.cc/ > > [2] https://icml.cc/ > > [3] https://blog.kathyreid.id.au/2023/12/10/alta2023/ > > [4] My PhD research, forthcoming > > [5] > https://blog.opensource.org/open-source-ai-establishing-a-common-ground/ > > [6] https://research.myshell.ai/open-voice > > [7] > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/16/voice-system-used-to-verify-identity-by-centrelink-can-be-fooled-by-ai > > > > > > On 7/1/24 14:54, Lyndsey Jackson via linux-aus wrote: > > Hi all, > > on a bit of a fact finding reach out for people or connections from people > working on open AI/LLM projects. > > Late last year a proposal for AI Centres to help SME's adopt AI dropped. > https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/artificial-intelligence-ai-adopt-program Before > the holiday break I did some work on a proposal concept for agricultural > value add (which is very, very broad), and I have insight into how some key > groups were considering approaching it. > > And if you have any tech/advice/ideas/groups please let me know, I might > not get a group to put a bid in but that's ok. I still want to know what's > happening in open source and who is working on it. > > > Thanks, > > Lyndsey > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing listlinux-aus at lists.linux.org.auhttp://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email tolinux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -- Lyndsey Jackson 0400 329 894 W: www.lyndseyjackson.com.au T: @ok_lyndsey LIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/lyndsey-jackson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at nerdvana.org.au Sun Jan 7 21:45:26 2024 From: steve at nerdvana.org.au (Steve Walsh) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 21:45:26 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem In-Reply-To: References: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> <20240105003801.4915a74b@gnosticus.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <39e67923-e2de-43ca-b7a6-c794aab4f361@nerdvana.org.au> Hi Folks Just before Christmas we started migrating the Linux Australia mail systems to Fastmail email hosting. As part of this we undertook thorough testing to ensure the mail flow was operating exactly as we needed the pre-migration, as well as future, mail flow to operate, and verified that all aliases were delivering mail to their intended remote destinations. Since then, we've started experiencing issues with email delivery when they pass through one part of the Fastmail systems, but only when mail transits 2 specific servers that handle a particular part of the mail flow. If mail passes through any of the other servers within the section that provide this particular function, it will be successfully delivered. We've been working with the Fastmail support team to try to pin down why this is happening, and get a permanent fix in place, but at this point we don't have an eta on when this will be. This error is impacting all LA aliases, even aliases that go nowhere near other Linux Australia servers (ie - personx at linux.org.au -> personx at personx.id.au). We're continuing to work on this issue as a matter of priority. Thanks as always to those who reached out directly via the LA Admin team contact address, and publicly via the Linux Aus List, to provide advice, information and feedback. regards Steve On 5/1/24 15:02, Cherie Ellis via linux-aus wrote: > Adam x2 > > Cherie Ellis > +64 21 293 9746 > > > > On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 03:38, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus > wrote: > > > > I got the above when trying to send email to the council.? The > Linux > > > Australia list server needs to whitelist 66.111.4.238 for SPF > > > checks so that the council at linux.org.au forwarding address works > > > correctly. > > > > or they can appoint admins who knows what they are doing, as they > > surely would have set up SRS to avoid those problems for all > > forwarding like everyone else does. > > I've never understood the need to insult volunteers, when they > graciously donate their time to keep things running that the rest > of us > are free to use without having to lift a finger. > > If you think they could be doing a better job, maybe you could > volunteer > some of your free time in return to help them out? > > Cheers, > Adam. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux at m0les.com Mon Jan 8 01:05:08 2024 From: linux at m0les.com (Miles Goodhew) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 01:05:08 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Announce] Notice of Linux Australia 2024 Council Elections and AGM In-Reply-To: <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> References: <94C200EA-F6CC-48F9-8293-0B0C616D5A91@joeladdison.com> <8e8a333c1da9c8597f7691e1a0f5b32f@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <62ef1ec9-7724-41fd-9e5e-80905304de89@app.fastmail.com> Hi Kathy, Thanks for the questions, I feel you have some similar concerns to me about the future for Linux Australia (LA). I'll address each point separately: PIPELINE CHALLENGES: I think the LA council needs to spend more effort on fostering newer and younger members into being involved in LA and the conferences/subcommittees it sponsors. One of the ways I believe this can be encouraged is for the council to communicate in greater frequency and volume with the membership and to more actively encourage participation. This is the reason why I've emitted unsolicited reminders into the lists about LA council nominations and elections for the past couple of years. While I'm sure that every council has only ever acted in the best interests of the membership, long periods of radio silence in the past have caused frustration amongst the membership from time to time. I'd like to have the council give more regular updates about what's being worked-on, what's coming up and what's happening now. I'd also like to see something like an outreach program (for school, university and businesses), but I must admit that I don't have any professional experience in this space. I'd hope that I could support someone more focused in this area. HIRED HELP I've occasionally wondered about having something like this. When I was a member of AUUG, Liz Egan did a great job as the group's (paid) business manager. Unfortunately every now and then there were complaints along the lines that "this was a waste of membership fees" or similar. I'm not sure that LA would be able to support a paid position (something like taking over the council secretary role) without introducing a membership fee to cover it. I think it would take quite some time to consult/interact with LA's membership about whether we could do this and how it could be done. That's not to say it shouldn't be considered, just that I wouldn't want it slammed-down as a single all-or-nothing voting item at an AGM. This sort-of ties-in with that "more communication" thing I raised in the first point: open a dialogue with the membership about the details and concerns with it. STRATEGIC DIRECTION I'll point back to the "be more communicative with the membership" thing again as one strategic improvement. Other than that, one of the quandaries about "Linux Australia" is the "Linux" part. The Linux kernel is still great, but it's no-longer the up-and-coming technology that spawned CALU and LCA in the past. Linux is ubiquitous nowadays (e.g. my computer, phone, printer, router, TV and solar battery all run some kind of Linux kernel - and probably many other devices in the house). I still think things like the kernel miniconf at LCA are valuable parts of the conferences, but LA does so much more than "just" Linux any more (e.g. grants and other conferences like Pycon, Drupal, Wordpress etc). I think LA should further seek to host more "generic open source" software and technology conferences. Anyway, I think I've waffled enough. Off the to polls with you! Thanks again, M0les. On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, at 22:01, Kathy Reid via linux-aus wrote: > Thanks Joel for the announcement. > > I'd love to hear from potential Council Members around some of the > challenges I see for Linux Australia itself, and the community more > broadly, for example some of the actions or programs that might be > undertaken in 2024 to address them. > > ## Pipeline challenges > > Across the board with open* in Australia, we are observing pipeline > challenges - that is, we seem to be lacking "the next generation" of > open source advocates - those willing to donate their time, talent and > treasure (ref: Tiffany Ferris) to advance the organisation's goals. This > is evident in the number of people nominating for Council, the broader > group of people willing to "pitch in" and provide help with all the > things the organisation does [0], the pipelines for organising flagship > events such as Everything Open and PyConAU etc. > > How do nominees intend to address the pipeline challenges, with specific > reference to goals, activities or programs of work? > > ## Hired help > > For a long time (certainly since I was on Council in the mid-2010s) > there has been debate around whether Linux Australia should hire help > such as an Executive Officer role to "do more of the doing", while > Council plays a (volunteer) governance role. Other organisations, such > as Digital Rights Watch, and previously, Electronic Frontiers Australia, > have adopted this model. > > Can Linux Australia afford to go down this path, and where do nominees' > views sit on this question? > > (To be clear, I don't think LA can afford to financially, and it sets up > a schism of labour in terms of paid vs volunteer, but very interested in > the thoughts of others). > > > ## Strategic direction > > Is Linux Australia on the right track? What strategic changes do you > think are needed (if any)? How would you make these changes? > > > Kind regards, > > Kathy Reid > > > [0] https://youtu.be/ektSl_d0F6Q?si=4VuCLRl--ymy-ogk&t=311 > > > > > On 2023-12-24 22:15, Joel Addison wrote: > > Dear Linux Australia Community, > > > > Pursuant to clause (15) of the Linux Australia constitution [1] we > > hereby declare an election open and call for nominations to the Linux > > Australia Council for the term January 2024 to January 2025. > > > > All office bearer and ordinary committee member positions are open for > > Election. > > > > ## Key Information > > > > * Nominations will open from 26 December 2023 and run until 11:59pm > > 6 January 2024 (AEDT). > > * Voting will open at 01:01 AM 7 January 2024 (AEDT) and run until > > 11:59pm 14 January 2024 (AEDT). > > * Results will be ratified during the AGM held at 2:30pm Saturday > > 20 January 2024 (AEDT). > > > > To view and participate in the election please visit > > https://www.linux.org.au/ > > * Click on ?Login? located on the top right hand side of the > > page and log in. > > * Click on ?Elections?. > > * Under ?Linux Australia Council Election 2024?, click on > > ?View & Submit Nominations?. > > > > ## What do I need to do? > > > > First of all, make sure your details are correct at Linux > > Australia?s > > website [2]. If you need assistance accessing the membership portal > > please contact secretary at linux.org.au. Note that in line with common > > election conventions, new membership requests are not processed during > > the election period. > > > > If you wish to nominate yourself, identify the positions you wish to > > nominate for and get an understanding of what each position involves. > > Think about what you might bring to the role and prepare a short > > pitch. > > Then, accept the nomination you've been given by clicking the 'Accept > > nomination' link. > > > > Please note that all people elected to a position on the Council > > must provide their current residential address, as per requirements > > for NSW incorporated associations. They must also hold a Director > > identification number (director ID) as per requirements of > > organisations > > with an Australian Registered Body Number (ARBN) [3]. > > > > *You must accept your nomination to move to the next stage of the > > election process* > > > > If you wish to nominate another person for a position, you may wish to > > contact them first and have a chat to make sure they're happy being > > nominated. Then follow the 'Nominate' link to nominate them. > > > > Once voting is open, you will be able to vote for candidates. Results > > will be announced at the Linux Australia AGM to be held on 20 January > > 2024. > > > > ## Why should I nominate? > > > > Being a member of Linux Australia Council is a fun way to meet new > > people, work on exciting projects and expand your skill base. It gives > > you excellent transferable skills to help build your career, and > > allows > > you to grow your professional network. It looks great on a CV, and is > > also a chance to give back to the vibrant Linux and open source > > ecosystem in Australia and globally. If you're passionate about open > > technologies and the communities that surround them, it's a great > > opportunity to help drive and steer Australia's contribution in this > > field. > > > > ## What is the commitment required? > > > > If you are contemplating nominating for a role on Council, in addition > > to referring to the Position Descriptions provided [4], you are > > strongly > > encouraged to approach current and former council members for their > > perspective. You will find them, to a person, willing to discuss the > > roles and responsibilities in a more informal manner. > > > > The roles do require a time commitment. > > * Ordinary Council Member: a minimum of 2-3 hours per week. > > * Office bearers: 8-12 hours per week. > > Please allow for this when considering your nomination. > > > > ## Why should I run? > > > > If you?ve been nominated, or are thinking of nominating yourself, > > you > > should give the opportunity serious consideration. Being on the > > council > > is both hard and often thankless work, but it is also incredibly > > rewarding. Linux Australia can only achieve what it does by its > > members > > and helping out with the council responsibilities is a great way to > > ensure Linux Australia continues to be successful. It is also an > > opportunity to help the organisation grow, reach into new areas and to > > succeed on important topics of national relevance. > > > > As always, your feedback and questions are warmly welcomed. If you'd > > like to have a chat with anyone on Council around what it involves, > > please reach out. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Joel Addison > > President > > Linux Australia > > > > [1] http://www.linux.org.au/constitution > > [2] http://www.linux.org.au/membership > > [3] https://www.abrs.gov.au/director-identification-number > > [4] https://github.com/linuxaustralia/position-descriptions > > _______________________________________________ > > announce mailing list > > announce at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/announce > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From euan at dekock.net Mon Jan 8 03:08:57 2024 From: euan at dekock.net (Euan de Kock) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 00:08:57 +0800 Subject: [Linux-aus] council email problem In-Reply-To: <39e67923-e2de-43ca-b7a6-c794aab4f361@nerdvana.org.au> References: <6507193.K2JlShyGXD@cupcakke> <20240105003801.4915a74b@gnosticus.teln.shikadi.net> <39e67923-e2de-43ca-b7a6-c794aab4f361@nerdvana.org.au> Message-ID: Onya Steve. Most of us quietly stand by while you do good voluntary work. It is silently accepted that stuff just works. Sometimes we need to acknowledge this rather than calling out the occasions when things break. Thanks to all of you - Euan. On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, 18:45 Steve Walsh via linux-aus, < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Hi Folks > > Just before Christmas we started migrating the Linux Australia mail > systems to Fastmail email hosting. As part of this we undertook thorough > testing to ensure the mail flow was operating exactly as we needed the > pre-migration, as well as future, mail flow to operate, and verified that > all aliases were delivering mail to their intended remote destinations. > > Since then, we've started experiencing issues with email delivery when > they pass through one part of the Fastmail systems, but only when mail > transits 2 specific servers that handle a particular part of the mail flow. > If mail passes through any of the other servers within the section that > provide this particular function, it will be successfully delivered. > > We've been working with the Fastmail support team to try to pin down why > this is happening, and get a permanent fix in place, but at this point we > don't have an eta on when this will be. This error is impacting all LA > aliases, even aliases that go nowhere near other Linux Australia servers > (ie - personx at linux.org.au -> personx at personx.id.au). > > We're continuing to work on this issue as a matter of priority. > > Thanks as always to those who reached out directly via the LA Admin team > contact address, and publicly via the Linux Aus List, to provide advice, > information and feedback. > > regards > > Steve > On 5/1/24 15:02, Cherie Ellis via linux-aus wrote: > > Adam x2 > > Cherie Ellis > +64 21 293 9746 > > > > On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 03:38, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus < > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > >> > > I got the above when trying to send email to the council. The Linux >> > > Australia list server needs to whitelist 66.111.4.238 for SPF >> > > checks so that the council at linux.org.au forwarding address works >> > > correctly. >> > >> > or they can appoint admins who knows what they are doing, as they >> > surely would have set up SRS to avoid those problems for all >> > forwarding like everyone else does. >> >> I've never understood the need to insult volunteers, when they >> graciously donate their time to keep things running that the rest of us >> are free to use without having to lift a finger. >> >> If you think they could be doing a better job, maybe you could volunteer >> some of your free time in return to help them out? >> >> Cheers, >> Adam. >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au >> > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing listlinux-aus at lists.linux.org.auhttp://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email tolinux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.germaine at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 09:38:59 2024 From: s.germaine at gmail.com (Sae Ra Germaine) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 09:38:59 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia Annual Report & Council Voting is now Open Message-ID: Good Morning All, ## Annual Report The Linux Australia 2023-2024 Annual Report, including the audited financial statements for 2022-2023, is now available on the LA website at: https://linux.org.au/about-us/annual-reports/ ## AGM If you have any questions please send them through to council at linux.org.au or come along to the AGM. Registration Details and Agenda is available at: https://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2024-January/024442.html ## Voting Nominations have closed, and voting is now open for the elections for the Linux Australia Council. Voting will close on January 14th, 2024 11:59 PM (GMT+11:00) The results will be announced at the Linux Australia AGM during linux.conf.au then posted to the website. To view and participate in the election please visit https://www.linux .org.au/ * Select ?Member Area? located on the top right hand side of the page and log in. * Select ?Elections?. * Select ?Vote in the Election? for the ?Linux Australia Council Election? of this year. Kind Regards, Sae Ra Germaine Linux Australia Ordinary Council Member https://linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaclang at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 11:58:03 2024 From: almaclang at gmail.com (Al Maclang) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 11:58:03 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Private Cloud for AU/NZ Linux Org Member Message-ID: Hello Team, Hope you're all having a great day! I'm wondering if anyone here would be keen on setting up an affordable Private Cloud utilising oVirt/OLVM/RHV with Hyperconverged Storage, also known as GlusterFS Storage Technology, leveraging the NVMe SSD and Grafana Monitoring? Should you be interested in viewing the setup from my HomeLab, I'd be more than happy to demonstrate it through a Google Meeting, Microsoft Meeting, or Zoom session. Please let me know if this interests you. I'm willing to help. Cheers! Kind regards, Al -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Mon Jan 8 13:37:27 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 13:37:27 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Private Cloud for AU/NZ Linux Org Member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2736011.mvXUDI8C0e@cupcakke> On Monday, 8 January 2024 11:58:03 AEDT Al Maclang via linux-aus wrote: > Hello Team, > > Hope you're all having a great day! > > I'm wondering if anyone here would be keen on setting up an affordable > Private Cloud utilising oVirt/OLVM/RHV with Hyperconverged Storage, also > known as GlusterFS Storage Technology, leveraging the NVMe SSD and Grafana > Monitoring? > > Should you be interested in viewing the setup from my HomeLab, I'd be more > than happy to demonstrate it through a Google Meeting, Microsoft Meeting, > or Zoom session. This sounds like a really good topic for a Flounder meeting. Is a Saturday in about the middle of the day good for you? Please contact me off-list to arrange the details. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jan 8 15:52:13 2024 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 17:52:13 +1300 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia and the link to New Zealand Message-ID: Having had a look at the Annual Report... a question... I realise it's "Linux Australia" but it would be lovely to see some language in the LA 'official pubs' that references, and is thus inclusive of, New Zealand. The recent news involving NZPUG and the fact that several LCA events have been held in New Zealand over the years only proves my point, to be honest. If Linux Australia does not, overtly, seek to 'aim to represent and assist the groups and individuals who make up the Free Software and Open Source communities in Australia' _and New Zealand_ (refer: "Our Values" section of the annual report) then I wonder why this is the case, and whether LA needs to be more explicitly inclusive of New Zealand. Sincerely, a New Zealand member of Linux Australia :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Mon Jan 8 16:00:33 2024 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 16:00:33 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia and the link to New Zealand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a1f253e-04a8-4b45-89fc-8547da625c93@kathyreid.id.au> In the spirit of inclusivity, I would like to advocate for us referring to the country in question as Aotearoa New Zealand in recognition of both decolonial efforts and M?ori heritage. Ng? mihi, Kathy Reid On 8/1/24 15:52, Mark Foster via linux-aus wrote: > > Having had a look at the Annual Report... a question... > > I realise it's "Linux Australia" but it would be lovely to see some > language in the LA 'official pubs' that references, and is thus > inclusive of, New Zealand. > > The recent news involving NZPUG and the fact that several LCA events > have been held in New Zealand over the years only proves my point, to > be honest. > > If Linux Australia does not, overtly, seek to 'aim to represent and > assist the groups and individuals who make up the Free Software and > Open Source communities in Australia' /and New Zealand/ (refer: "Our > Values" section of the annual report) then I wonder why this is the > case, and whether LA needs to be more explicitly inclusive of New Zealand. > > Sincerely, a New Zealand member of Linux Australia :-) > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.germaine at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 16:10:33 2024 From: s.germaine at gmail.com (Sae Ra Germaine) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 16:10:33 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux Australia and the link to New Zealand In-Reply-To: <9a1f253e-04a8-4b45-89fc-8547da625c93@kathyreid.id.au> References: <9a1f253e-04a8-4b45-89fc-8547da625c93@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Hi All, Apologies it's my mistake as I had missed putting them into this year's Annual Report! (way too much going on!) I won't go through it and make changes as it's now been published but will make a note for next year's annual report and make sure that the website starts to reflect ANZ/AUS. My apologies again :) Sae Ra On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 at 16:00, Kathy Reid via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > In the spirit of inclusivity, I would like to advocate for us referring to > the country in question as Aotearoa New Zealand in recognition of both > decolonial efforts and M?ori heritage. > > Ng? mihi, > > Kathy Reid > > > On 8/1/24 15:52, Mark Foster via linux-aus wrote: > > Having had a look at the Annual Report... a question... > > I realise it's "Linux Australia" but it would be lovely to see some > language in the LA 'official pubs' that references, and is thus inclusive > of, New Zealand. > > The recent news involving NZPUG and the fact that several LCA events have > been held in New Zealand over the years only proves my point, to be honest. > > If Linux Australia does not, overtly, seek to 'aim to represent and assist > the groups and individuals who make up the Free Software and Open Source > communities in Australia' *and New Zealand* (refer: "Our Values" section > of the annual report) then I wonder why this is the case, and whether LA > needs to be more explicitly inclusive of New Zealand. > > Sincerely, a New Zealand member of Linux Australia :-) > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing listlinux-aus at lists.linux.org.auhttp://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email tolinux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.j.fenwick at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 13:51:42 2024 From: paul.j.fenwick at gmail.com (Paul Fenwick) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 13:51:42 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] The passing of Daniel Harmsworth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Letting you all know that the funeral of Daniel Harmsworth will be broadcast online through the link below. Service is scheduled for tomorrow (Wednesday 10th) at 1pm New Zealand time. https://tributes.co.nz/ViewMyTribute.aspx?id=20055 On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 21:06, Paul Fenwick wrote: > Hi everyone, > > With great regret and sadness I wish to report that on the first of > January 2024 in Auckland, Daniel Harmsworth passed away suddenly at the age > of 36. > > Some of you may remember Daniel as being involved in Maker Labs and Fab > Labs across Australia, New Zealand, and the world. While not always taking > the limelight himself, Daniel's enthusiasm was infectious, and he was > untiring in supporting others to work on new and ambitious projects, to try > new things even if they were silly or hard, and to form communities to > share knowledge and friendship. > > Daniel founded the Perth Artifactory maker space group in 2009, which > continues to operate today. > > Daniel's funeral will take place on Thursday 11th of January 2024 at the > Cockburn Street Chapel in Wellington New Zealand. I've been told there will > also be an online stream, and I will provide those details when I have them. > > Please distribute this email as you feel is appropriate. > > In sadness, and with fond memories, > Paul > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.germaine at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 09:38:48 2024 From: s.germaine at gmail.com (Sae Ra Germaine) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 09:38:48 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] REMINDER: Linux Australia Annual Report, AGM Details, and Council Voting is now Open Message-ID: Good Morning All, ## Annual Report The Linux Australia 2023-2024 Annual Report, including the audited financial statements for 2022-2023, is now available on the LA website at: https://linux.org.au/about-us/annual-reports/ ## AGM If you have any questions please send them through to council at linux.org.au or come along to the AGM. You can Register for the AGM at: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZItcO2tqjktEtXqxvxxb67TPpDfwKfFqlkU You will need to be a Linux Australia member to register. ## Voting Voting is open for the elections for the Linux Australia Council. ***Voting will close THIS WEEKEND on January 14th, 2024 11:59 PM (GMT+11:00)*** The results will be announced at the Linux Australia AGM To view and participate in the election please visit https://www.linux.org.au/ * Select ?Member Area? located on the top right hand side of the page and log in. * Select ?Elections?. * Select ?Vote in the Election? for the ?Linux Australia Council Election? of this year. Kind Regards, Sae Ra Germaine Linux Australia Ordinary Council Member https://linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From web at polynate.net Thu Jan 11 13:54:13 2024 From: web at polynate.net (Nathan Bailey) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:54:13 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] How the council breached their constitution - membersregister request section 7 In-Reply-To: References: <61CA4839-38F3-4448-8E45-31D5B2273172@herstik.com> <2726158a-9747-436a-871d-903659894b5f@app.fastmail.com> <605614c8-cd8a-45a6-b385-c85d8af06092@app.fastmail.com> <198c649b-521e-7f49-f817-1a8fe3474729@kathyreid.id.au> <0ab2a394-048e-e715-fc4b-3771454c0a01@shirro.com> Message-ID: I agree that it's beneficial to minimise constraints on council/LA, but also to empower them to protect us in the fashion we might expect. The current privacy setting seems a good compromise. If we do move towards blocking member requests for access to the register, we need to consider the case where council becomes corrupt, hostile or frivolous. A non-council moderated mechanism is required to be able to contact all members. This could be as simple as a web form, accessible only to members, that council are obligated to maintain unimpeded, that messages all members. If such messages are sent with the "From" of the actual sender, we (members) could then block anyone who used the form inappropriately. I am also confused about why Marcus hasn't clarified the original intent of his request. I think Dustyn's response is helpful here. Marcus, can you clarify (a) what you're trying to do; and (b) whether Dustyn's alternatives will meet your needs? -N On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 at 00:30, Ambrose Andrews via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > On 1/1/23 15:17, phillip via linux-aus wrote: > > Perhaps, the constitution can be amended in such a way that analytics of > membership can be made available on request, having the details of > individual members revealed serves no purpose outside contact and > demographics, why not replace it with data and a contact request service? > > I'm in favour of not putting additional detailed mandates for what the > council must or might do in the constitution. I'm in favour of not > imposing lots of limitations on what council can agree to do if it wants > to. The problem with the current wording is that it might be able to used > to limit the ability of council to act in the interests of members. > Putting specific ways the council *can* act in the interest of members in > the constitution seems unnecessary and might imply that they can't do other > unspecified things. The main reason people seem to want details of members > is not for data analytics, but to communicate with them. There *might* be > some argument for explicitly saying something about making available some > avenue to communicate indirectly with members in some limited way > (preferably compatible with protecting privacy and agency of members) > without going into detail about the form. > > -AA. > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From web at polynate.net Thu Jan 11 13:57:00 2024 From: web at polynate.net (Nathan Bailey) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:57:00 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Email blur request for mailing list archives (Was: How the council breached their constitution - membersregister request section 7) In-Reply-To: References: <61CA4839-38F3-4448-8E45-31D5B2273172@herstik.com> <2726158a-9747-436a-871d-903659894b5f@app.fastmail.com> <605614c8-cd8a-45a6-b385-c85d8af06092@app.fastmail.com> <198c649b-521e-7f49-f817-1a8fe3474729@kathyreid.id.au> <0ab2a394-048e-e715-fc4b-3771454c0a01@shirro.com> Message-ID: Council/web tech team of LA. Can we please get some kind of email blurring mechanism added to the archives? eg. *name at ...* instead of *name at example.com * I can't think of any good reason why the LA mailing archives currently publish them in full. If this could be implemented post hoc (ie. across all the existing archives too), that would be even better. -N -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Fri Jan 12 09:18:45 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 09:18:45 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] 20th Jan FIDO hack day Message-ID: <1996977.usQuhbGJ8B@cupcakke> https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-jan-2024-fido/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDO_Alliance#FIDO2 January event, FIDO Hack day. FIDO2 is a system for strong authentication for the web. We should all want to have this running in a distributed fashion so let?s learn how to do it. Meeting will be at http://b.coker.com.au. No need to register just click on the link on the day. Having an existing test web server would be good to have in advance of this, but not required. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Fri Jan 12 14:05:03 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 14:05:03 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] 20th Jan FIDO hack day In-Reply-To: <1996977.usQuhbGJ8B@cupcakke> References: <1996977.usQuhbGJ8B@cupcakke> Message-ID: <2203425.Icojqenx9y@cupcakke> https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-jan-2024-fido-hack/ I just changed this to a 4PM start because of the LA AGM. That means a 8PM (10PM Auckland time) end, but I figure that people in NZ can have a late night on occasion or just leave the meeting early. People often leave the hack meetings after about 3 hours anyway. On Friday, 12 January 2024 09:18:45 AEDT Russell Coker wrote: > https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-jan-2024-fido/ > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDO_Alliance#FIDO2 > January event, FIDO Hack day. > > FIDO2 is a system for strong authentication for the web. We should all want > to have this running in a distributed fashion so let?s learn how to do it. > > Meeting will be at http://b.coker.com.au. No need to register just click on > the link on the day. > > Having an existing test web server would be good to have in advance of this, > but not required. Meeting officially opens at 4pm Melbourne time (05:00UTC) on the 20th of Jan. Later than usual start time because of the Linux Australia AGM. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From contact at everythingopen.au Tue Jan 16 11:12:56 2024 From: contact at everythingopen.au (Everything Open) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:12:56 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Everything Open 2024: 2nd Keynote Announcement Message-ID: ## We are delighted to announce our second Keynote speaker at Everything Open 2024, Jana Dekanovska. Jana Dekanovska is a well-known threat intelligence analyst, with a particular interest in the intersection of artificial intelligence (AI) and cyber security. She serves as a Strategic Threat Advisor at CrowdStrike, where she holds responsibility for their cyber threat intelligence business across Australia and Aotearoa/New Zealand. Jana?s keynote will examine the rise of artificial intelligence within cyber security, and in particular how Adversarial AI is altering the cyber security threat landscape - and what you can do about it. Registrations are now open for Everything Open 2024, and we have curated a list of travel and accommodation options for you. You may be surprised at how affordable accommodation in Gladstone is, particularly compared to regional cities, with many options under $AUD 150 a night. ## About Jana Jana focuses on helping customers operationalize and integrate threat intelligence within their organization?s security strategy, demonstrating the value of CrowdStrike intelligence capabilities. Prior to her current role, Jana was a Senior Cyber Threat Intelligence Analyst at CyberCX, developing a wide variety of analytical products across strategic, operational and tactical levels of intelligence for a diverse customer base. Before moving to Australia, Jana held multiple intelligence-based roles across Merck and Amazon in the Czech republic, and served in NATO commands across Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands. Jana regularly presents at events in Australia and internationally and is frequently interviewed by Australian media on cyber security news topics. ## About the keynote AI is a hot topic in cyber security. Everyone is curious about it. Excited about its use cases and nervous about the problems it may cause in the wrong hands. AI as a tool can be used by both defenders and adversaries. This talk will focus mainly on what the adversaries are doing from the offensive perspective and unpack the concept of Adversarial AI that will fundamentally change the threat landscape and lower the barrier of entry for adversaries to enter the cyber security game. The underlying openness of AI means that we can now take the collective knowledge of many smart people and bend the time and knowledge gap, giving this advantage to the adversary, creating threat actors that are smarter, faster and have the ability to do more damage. AI is going to change the threats as we know them today and is the next big problem we are facing in security. Jana will discuss how adversaries are using AI today, how it could be used in the future, and how this will affect your business. ## Register now for Everything Open 2024! Register now to attend Everything Open 2024, in beautiful Gladstone, tropical north Queensland. We have a range of ticket prices suitable for most budgets, and have compiled information on travel to, and accommodation in Gladstone, as well as information on what you can do while you?re here. We?re looking forward to seeing you in April 2024! If you have questions please contact the Organising Team via email at contact at everythingopen.au From russell at coker.com.au Sat Jan 20 15:29:16 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:29:16 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] FPGA for RISC-V etc - want to apply for a grant? Message-ID: <2255064.iZASKD2KPV@xev> I think that FPGA development is very important for the future of computing, both for developing new CPUs such as the RISC-V and for being a coprocessor. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006080116482.html https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/tang/tang-mega-138k/mega-138k-pro.html The Sipheed Mega is a high end FPGA designed for developing RISC-V which costs $330 for the dev kit including delivery. Above are the Aliexpress page for buying and the Sipeed wiki page for it. It has 138K LUT (a measure of how complex the CPUs it can run). https://etbe.coker.com.au/2024/01/18/licheepi-4a-risc-v-first-look/ I've just bought a RISC-V SBC from Sipheed and I regard them as a good supplier. The device is not perfect, but running versions of hardware, software, and compilers that aren't at what is usually considered a full release standard means that some problems are expected. Basically everything RISC-V at the moment is for developers only - which is why grants related to it would be a good use of LA money. I'm not saying that Sipheed is the best choice (it might be - I lack relevant experience), I'm just saying that we can expect their stuff to work and be usable. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006224593018.html https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/tang/index.html The Sipheed Tang Primer has 20K LUT and costs $45 + $16 postage and can run a low end RISC-V core. 1/4 of the price is postage so getting them in bulk will save some money. I think it would be a good use of LA money to fund a grant related to this. NB I am NOT going to apply for such a grant, I'm busy enough already. But if such a grant was awarded I would work with the people who got it, I would help them where I could and ask them for advice on occasion. I think it would be ideal if we had a group of 8+ people using the Tang Primer who could work together and share ideas and maybe a Tang Mega run by someone who can put it online. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Thu Jan 25 00:03:51 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 00:03:51 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Saturday Flounder meeting about Phones Message-ID: <3243972.AJdgDx1Vlc@cupcakke> https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-jan-2024-phone-discuss/ January event, Linux on phones discussion and Demo day. Yifei and Russell will discuss things that they have investigated and ideas for how to improve things. There will be a lecture part and a discussion part, input from people will be appreciated. Meeting will be at http://b.coker.com.au. No need to register just click on the link on the day. Meeting officially opens at 1pm Melbourne time (02:00UTC) on the 27th of Jan. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jan 30 19:56:36 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:56:36 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Flounder Meeting Feb 3rd - CCC Watch Party Message-ID: <3274579.aeNJFYEL58@xev> https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-feb-2024-37c3-watch-party/ First February event, 37C3 Watch Party The 37th edition of the CCC is a conference about computer security [1]. They have videos of their lectures online, for this meeting we will watch lectures that are generally agreed to be interesting and then discuss them. Feel free to review the list of lectures before the meeting to choose the ones you most want to watch and discuss! Meeting will be at http://b.coker.com.au. No need to register just click on the link on the day. Meeting officially opens at 1pm Melbourne time (02:00UTC) on the 27th of Jan. [1] https://media.ccc.de/c/37c3 -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Tue Jan 30 23:03:21 2024 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 23:03:21 +1100 Subject: [Linux-aus] Flounder Meeting Feb 3rd - CCC Watch Party In-Reply-To: <3274579.aeNJFYEL58@xev> References: <3274579.aeNJFYEL58@xev> Message-ID: <10411417.nUPlyArG6x@xev> On Tuesday, 30 January 2024 19:56:36 AEDT Russell Coker wrote: > First February event, 37C3 Watch Party > > The 37th edition of the CCC is a conference about computer security [1]. > They have videos of their lectures online, for this meeting we will watch > lectures that are generally agreed to be interesting and then discuss them. > Feel free to review the list of lectures before the meeting to choose the > ones you most want to watch and discuss! > > Meeting will be at http://b.coker.com.au. No need to register just click on > the link on the day. > Meeting officially opens at 1pm Melbourne time (02:00UTC) on the 3rd of Feb. > > [1] https://media.ccc.de/c/37c3 https://flounder.linux.org.au/events/flounder-feb-2024-37c3-watch/ Sorry for the mistake, I had the wrong day in the body. I ficed that and gave it a new URL. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/