From ryan.stuart.85 at gmail.com Wed May 3 17:57:30 2023 From: ryan.stuart.85 at gmail.com (Ryan Stuart) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 17:57:30 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why are you directly emailing me? Who are you? Do we know each other? Regards, On Wed, 3 May 2023, 5:53 pm Daniel Pocock, wrote: > > As luck would have it, the deadline for the e-petition is right after > the coronation > > We see so many false accusations of abuse, like the defamation Linux > Australia spread about Jacob Appelbaum and then we have hospitals like > the Alfred named after a prince who allegedly courted a 14 year old > girlfriend. What a contradiction. > > Please share, most signatures only come at the last moment. > > https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/view-sign-e-petitions/details/12/474 > > Background research: > > > https://danielpocock.com/victoria-prince-alfred-commonwealth-games-2026-petition/ > > You can also start a petition in your own state. In the spirit of open > source, I'm placing my petition text in the public domain for people to > use as you feel fit. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulway at mabula.net Wed May 3 17:58:55 2023 From: paulway at mabula.net (Paul Wayper) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 17:58:55 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> On 3/5/23 5:57 pm, Ryan Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > Why are you directly emailing me? Who are you? Do we know each other? David's been going on about this for years, and has decided that spamming everyone he can find on the Linux Australia list is a good way to make friends. Regards, Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.stuart.85 at gmail.com Wed May 3 18:12:40 2023 From: ryan.stuart.85 at gmail.com (Ryan Stuart) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 18:12:40 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: <6d4fc6f8-ea05-b038-9258-64e66f3b669b@pocock.com.au> References: <6d4fc6f8-ea05-b038-9258-64e66f3b669b@pocock.com.au> Message-ID: Perhaps the better course of action would be to create your own mailing list so people can opt in to hearing from you rather than spamming members of someone else's list. On Wed, 3 May 2023, 6:04 pm Daniel Pocock, wrote: > > The linux-aus mailing list is being censored again so it is necessary to > include all the members on CC > > It is really sad how some misfits are sabotaging mailing lists and using > organizations like Linux Australia for their vendettas and grudges > > > On 03/05/2023 09:57, Ryan Stuart wrote: > > Why are you directly emailing me? Who are you? Do we know each other? > > > > Regards, > > > > > > On Wed, 3 May 2023, 5:53 pm Daniel Pocock, > > wrote: > > > > > > As luck would have it, the deadline for the e-petition is right after > > the coronation > > > > We see so many false accusations of abuse, like the defamation Linux > > Australia spread about Jacob Appelbaum and then we have hospitals > like > > the Alfred named after a prince who allegedly courted a 14 year old > > girlfriend. What a contradiction. > > > > Please share, most signatures only come at the last moment. > > > > > https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/view-sign-e-petitions/details/12/474 > > > > Background research: > > > > > https://danielpocock.com/victoria-prince-alfred-commonwealth-games-2026-petition/ > > > > You can also start a petition in your own state. In the spirit of > open > > source, I'm placing my petition text in the public domain for people > to > > use as you feel fit. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joel at addison.net.au Wed May 3 18:14:59 2023 From: joel at addison.net.au (Joel Addison) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 18:14:59 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> References: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> Message-ID: <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> > On 3 May 2023, at 5:58 pm, Paul Wayper via linux-aus wrote: > > On 3/5/23 5:57 pm, Ryan Stuart via linux-aus wrote: >> Why are you directly emailing me? Who are you? Do we know each other? > David's been going on about this for years, and has decided that spamming everyone he can find on the Linux Australia list is a good way to make friends. > > Regards, > > Paul > For the benefit of list members - Daniel has not been a member of this list for a while now, nor any other LA lists. It is unfortunate that he continues to email people directly outside the mailing list, while pretending to be using the list, and while it would be great to be able to stop it altogether, unfortunately our spam filtering ability does not extend outside of our mail servers. We will continue to monitor to make sure the list is kept clear from him. I?d ask that if you do receive a direct email, please do not respond with it to the mailing list to then bring his content to the list. You are welcome to raise any issues with LA Council (council at linux.org.au) and we will assist as best we can. Kind regards, Joel Addison President Linux Australia president at linux.org.au http://linux.org.au Linux Australia Inc GPO Box 4788 Sydney NSW 2001 Australia Limited Liability (NSW) Y2998126 ABN 56 987 117 479 ARBN 618 108 544 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Wed May 3 18:40:48 2023 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 18:40:48 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> References: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> Message-ID: <58035d8d-b23a-9f4d-9022-7753a3ec3039@kathyreid.id.au> Here are the whois details for Daniel's domain, just in case anyone within LA leadership would like to bring this to the attention of the abuse@ address of the registrar he uses: $ whois pocock.com.au Domain Name: POCOCK.COM.AU Registry Domain ID: D407400000002574667-AU Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.auda.org.au Registrar URL: https://elb.www.netregistry.com.au/contact-us/ Last Modified: 2022-06-19T01:24:45Z Registrar Name: Netregistry Pty Ltd Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse at webcentral.com.au Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +61.279080901 Reseller Name: Status: serverRenewProhibited https://afilias.com.au/get-au/whois-status-codes#serverRenewProhibited Status Reason: Not Currently Eligible For Renewal Registrant Contact ID: ADDO1046 Registrant Contact Name: Domain Admin Tech Contact ID: C0647391-AR Tech Contact Name: Domain Admin Name Server: NS2.TRENDHOSTING.NET Name Server: NS1.TRENDHOSTING.NET DNSSEC: unsigned Registrant: Daniel Pocock Registrant ID: ABN 22 504 676 655 Eligibility Type: Other On 3/5/23 18:14, Joel Addison via linux-aus wrote: > >> On 3 May 2023, at 5:58 pm, Paul Wayper via linux-aus >> wrote: >> >> On 3/5/23 5:57 pm, Ryan Stuart via linux-aus wrote: >>> Why are you directly emailing me? Who are you? Do we know each other? >> >> David's been going on about this for years, and has decided that >> spamming everyone he can find on the Linux Australia list is a good >> way to make friends. >> >> Regards, >> >> Paul >> > > For the benefit of list members - Daniel has not been a member of this > list for a while now, nor any other LA lists. It is unfortunate that > he continues to email people directly outside the mailing list, while > pretending to be using the list, and while it would be great to be > able to stop it altogether, unfortunately our spam filtering ability > does not extend outside of our mail servers. We will continue to > monitor to make sure the list is kept clear from him. > > I?d ask that if you do receive a direct email, please do not respond > with it to the mailing list to then bring his content to the list. You > are welcome to raise any issues with LA Council (council at linux.org.au) > and we will assist as best we can. > > Kind regards, > > Joel Addison > > President > Linux Australia > > president at linux.org.au > http://linux.org.au > > Linux Australia Inc > GPO Box 4788 > Sydney NSW 2001 > Australia > > Limited Liability (NSW) Y2998126 > ABN 56 987 117 479 > ARBN 618 108 544 > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bod at c47.org Wed May 3 20:12:43 2023 From: bod at c47.org (Brendan O'Dea) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 20:12:43 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> References: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2023 at 18:15, Joel Addison via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > For the benefit of list members - Daniel has not been a member of this > list for a while now, nor any other LA lists. It is unfortunate that he > continues to email people directly outside the mailing list, while > pretending to be using the list, and while it would be great to be able to > stop it altogether, unfortunately our spam filtering ability does not > extend outside of our mail servers. We will continue to monitor to make > sure the list is kept clear from him. > Daniel has played similar games with the Debian lists, after being removed from the project (and the lists). His modus operandi operandi appears to be to grab the members of a list at some point, and then after being removed, send mail directly to members of the list in a way that makes it look like it was a list post. Kind of a long game: I got a "debian-deve" message *many* years after unsubscribing to that list. While the list managers can't help because it isn't actually coming from the list, his messages are actually pretty easy to filter since they actually come from his email address rather than "via linux-aus". Annoying as it is to special-case a single individual, it is possible to add adding filters for messages from "daniel at pocock.pro" or "daniel at pocock.com.au". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at ebourne.me.uk Wed May 3 22:18:07 2023 From: lists at ebourne.me.uk (lists at ebourne.me.uk) Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 21:48:07 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: References: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> Message-ID: <7U03UR.3V9M0SC3R6T03@ebourne.me.uk> I replied directly to Daniel and politely requested that he respect my wishes for him to never send me an email ever again for any reason, and to never use or publish my email address again for any reason. Perhaps if everyone did that (directly and not to any list!) he might come to a reasonable conclusion about his unwanted behaviour. If he doesn't then following up to the abuse@ address Kathy sent previously on this thread might be the next step. Regards, Martin On Wed, May 3 2023 at 20:12:43 +1000, Brendan O'Dea via linux-aus wrote: > On Wed, 3 May 2023 at 18:15, Joel Addison via linux-aus > > > wrote: >> For the benefit of list members - Daniel has not been a member of >> this list for a while now, nor any other LA lists. It is unfortunate >> that he continues to email people directly outside the mailing list, >> while pretending to be using the list, and while it would be great >> to be able to stop it altogether, unfortunately our spam filtering >> ability does not extend outside of our mail servers. We will >> continue to monitor to make sure the list is kept clear from him. > > Daniel has played similar games with the Debian lists, after being > removed from the project (and the lists). His modus operandi > operandi appears to be to grab the members of a list at some point, > and then after being removed, send mail directly to members of the > list in a way that makes it look like it was a list post. Kind of a > long game: I got a "debian-deve" message *many* years after > unsubscribing to that list. > > While the list managers can't help because it isn't actually coming > from the list, his messages are actually pretty easy to filter since > they actually come from his email address rather than "via > linux-aus". Annoying as it is to special-case a single individual, > it is possible to add adding filters for messages from > "daniel at pocock.pro " or > "daniel at pocock.com.au ". > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madduck at madduck.net Wed May 3 22:34:17 2023 From: madduck at madduck.net (martin f krafft) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 14:34:17 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: <7U03UR.3V9M0SC3R6T03@ebourne.me.uk> References: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> <7U03UR.3V9M0SC3R6T03@ebourne.me.uk> Message-ID: Regarding the following, written by "lists--- via linux-aus" on 2023-05-03 at 21:48 Uhr +0930: >I replied directly to Daniel and politely requested that he respect >my wishes for him to never send me an email ever again for any >reason, and to never use or publish my email address again for any >reason. Perhaps if everyone did that (directly and not to any >list!) he might come to a reasonable conclusion about his unwanted >behaviour. Hahahaha. There is no reason in this meatsack. >If he doesn't then following up to the abuse@ address Kathy sent >previously on this thread might be the next step. The only way to deal with Daniel (and people like him) is to remain disciplined on our behalf and *simply never engage*. Folks like him get all the excitement whenever someone engages with them, or *gasp* even argues. Do not feed the troll. Do not feed the poCock. -- @martinkrafft | https://matrix.to/#/#madduck:madduck.net weapon, n.: an index of the lack of development of a culture. spamtraps: madduck.bogus at madduck.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathy at kathyreid.id.au Sun May 14 17:04:27 2023 From: kathy at kathyreid.id.au (Kathy Reid) Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 17:04:27 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] 2023 State of Tech Talent Report - Linux Foundation Message-ID: <680fb585-2a45-df0a-bb57-0bfe9d563bec@kathyreid.id.au> Hi folks, With the uncertainty in the jobs market at the moment, you might be interested in the Linux Foundation's State of Tech Talent Report; granted, the Linux Foundation has a particular agenda in producing it, but I found it a useful read to get a view of where the talent market is heading. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/research/open-source-jobs-report-2023 See also: https://www.zdnet.com/article/open-source-and-linux-skills-still-in-demand-in-a-dark-economy/ Best, Kathy From paul.esson at gmail.com Tue May 16 04:10:19 2023 From: paul.esson at gmail.com (Paul Esson) Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 20:10:19 +0200 Subject: [Linux-aus] 2023 State of Tech Talent Report - Linux Foundation In-Reply-To: <680fb585-2a45-df0a-bb57-0bfe9d563bec@kathyreid.id.au> References: <680fb585-2a45-df0a-bb57-0bfe9d563bec@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing this, really appreciate it. On Sun, 14 May 2023, 9:04 am Kathy Reid via linux-aus, < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > Hi folks, > > With the uncertainty in the jobs market at the moment, you might be > interested in the Linux Foundation's State of Tech Talent Report; > granted, the Linux Foundation has a particular agenda in producing it, > but I found it a useful read to get a view of where the talent market is > heading. > > https://www.linuxfoundation.org/research/open-source-jobs-report-2023 > > See also: > > https://www.zdnet.com/article/open-source-and-linux-skills-still-in-demand-in-a-dark-economy/ > > Best, Kathy > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craige at mcwhirter.com.au Wed May 17 13:14:59 2023 From: craige at mcwhirter.com.au (Craige McWhirter) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 13:14:59 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [Linux-aus, abuse] Prince Alfred e-petition & coronation deadline In-Reply-To: <58035d8d-b23a-9f4d-9022-7753a3ec3039@kathyreid.id.au> References: <3d137639-c5dc-96d6-44f6-4d9ad57ae0c7@mabula.net> <7687857D-D5AD-48BE-B240-86A191EB2C51@addison.net.au> <58035d8d-b23a-9f4d-9022-7753a3ec3039@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <20230517031459.xggzdtxksyah2bnq@dionach> On Wed, May 03, 2023 at 18:40:48 +1000, Kathy Reid via linux-aus wrote: > Here are the whois details for Daniel's domain, just in case anyone > within LA leadership would like to bring this to the attention of the > abuse@ address of the registrar he uses: I do not support Daniel's methods or message. My immediate response to his activities is one of sadness. What concerns me more than those emails, is the swiftness of a reactionary call for authoritarian action that will achieve nothing. Even if the domain is successfully de-registered, emails can be sent from other addresses trivially. As far as I can see, a domain de-registration causes inconvenince to one party but denigrates our community by lowering us to such an ineffectual response for what, unltimately? It rings hollow and feels petty. I think we're better than that. I sincerely hope that the council takes the high road. In my experience, Daniel does not respond to polite requests to stop. This leaves deleting without reading or filtering as probably the best courses of action when dealing with Daniel's messaging. -- Craige McWhirter Signal: +61 4685 91819 Matrix: @craige:mcwhirter.io Mastodon: @craige at mcwhirter.io -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From russell at coker.com.au Sun May 21 22:43:38 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 22:43:38 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming Message-ID: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux? When I Google this I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a language I like or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things if it is much easier than other options. I would prefer C/C++. What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on Linux. When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all the basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an entry field and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any code. For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the screens graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry fields and API calls. But I have the impression that no such thing exists for Linux. I know it sounds horrible, but something like VisualBasic for Linux would probably do. What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a phone and that requires less use of the command-line. So shell scripts need to be replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server needs to be replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From andrew at sericyb.com.au Sun May 21 22:47:20 2023 From: andrew at sericyb.com.au (Andrew Pam) Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 22:47:20 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: <0bad2b90-5ef9-94af-3455-06049fd299a1@sericyb.com.au> On 21/5/23 22:43, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > I know it sounds horrible, but something like VisualBasic for Linux would > probably do. The closest equivalent seems to be Gambas: https://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html Hope that helps, Andrew From andrew at sericyb.com.au Sun May 21 22:56:29 2023 From: andrew at sericyb.com.au (Andrew Pam) Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 22:56:29 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: On 21/5/23 22:43, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on Linux. > When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all the > basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an entry field > and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any code. > For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the screens > graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry fields and > API calls. But I have the impression that no such thing exists for Linux. If you use Flutter, there are some design tools available, for example: Hope that helps, Andrew From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Mon May 22 00:29:27 2023 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 00:29:27 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux? When I Google this > I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a language I like > or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things if it is > much easier than other options. I would prefer C/C++. For C/C++ you have to pick a toolkit like Qt, GTK, wxWidgets, etc. All of them have their positives and negatives, and all of them require this toolkit to be installed on the system you want to run the program on. If you want to run your final program on a phone, make sure you can install the toolkit on it before deciding on which one to use. > What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on Linux. > When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all the > basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an entry field > and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any code. Most of these toolkits now have designers available that let you drag and drop to develop the UI. Some are better than others, I suspect because doing GUIs in traditional languages like C++ is very tedious so most developers would rather be doing something else. > For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the screens > graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry fields and > API calls. But I have the impression that no such thing exists for Linux. If you are talking about API calls then HTML and Javascript starts to be a viable option, especially based on your next point. > What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a phone and > that requires less use of the command-line. So shell scripts need to be > replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server needs to be > replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. If you're going to run on a phone then it probably has a web browser, so making a web page in Javascript is likely going to give you the least painful result. A web app means you can run on pretty much any mobile device, tablet, computer, etc. If you use C++ and a toolkit, it will be difficult to run on iOS or Android devices as these have different toolkits to a normal Linux PC - you have to actually write an iOS or Android app, using whatever lanuages and toolkits the vendor supports. However if you go the web route, you can write a "progressive web app" which is basically static HTML and some Javascript, which thanks to a few extra config files, gets run on your phone as if it's an app you installed through the app store. This means you get an icon on the phone's home screen to launch the app, it runs full screen like a native app, and with some additional code it can even run offline. Then you just need to handle the backend (actioning API requests coming from the GUI elements on the web page) which you could do in C++ if you wanted, but most people stick with Javascript so the language is the same in both halves of the system. On a normal Linux machine you'd use NodeJS to run the server code. You may be able to run this on a phone, or it may be more practical to run it on another machine on your network. I spent many years writing GUI code with C++ (on Windows and Linux) and experimented with Python a bit, but once I realised how much quicker GUIs are to develop as web sites, I never went back. There is a lot to learn if you've never done it before, especially to make a really polished dynamic app using React or similar, but one good thing about this is that it doesn't take too much to get basic code up and running and you can expand from there. There are also many orders of magnitude more people working on web sites than C++ GUIs, so there's a lot more information out there and people who can help if you get stuck. Cheers, Adam. From sflees at suse.de Mon May 22 05:56:37 2023 From: sflees at suse.de (Simon Lees) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 05:26:37 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: On 5/21/23 22:13, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux? When I Google this > I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a language I like > or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things if it is > much easier than other options. I would prefer C/C++. > > What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on Linux. > When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all the > basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an entry field > and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any code. > For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the screens > graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry fields and > API calls. But I have the impression that no such thing exists for Linux. > > I know it sounds horrible, but something like VisualBasic for Linux would > probably do. I have used pretty much all the Linux gui frameworks at some point, and if I have the choice i'll always use Qt, if you know C++ once you get your head around its event system and Signal Slots (Callback System) everything is pretty straight forward and QtCreator will get you a long way pretty quickly, it allows you to drag out and layout UI's from components like buttons so all you have to do after is link them to functions. > What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a phone and > that requires less use of the command-line. So shell scripts need to be > replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server needs to be > replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. I have used Qt with android in the past, I redid the main UI with bigger buttons and with the android NDK installed was able to build and deploy it as a test app. That was a few years back I haven't tried recently. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From heracles1108 at gmail.com Mon May 22 09:19:02 2023 From: heracles1108 at gmail.com (Ashley) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 09:19:02 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: I have used Gambas 3 quite often as it is very similar to Visual Basic and it makes it easy to convert a program from Gambas to Visual Basic if you want to develop applications in both environments. I know you prefer not to use Python but it is a vert easy to learn and useful language with lots of objects available. Also, if you are familiar with C you can use any number of IDEs and Kits with it. It is even easy to use Emacs as a development environment for C. This is only the tip of what is available. Ashley On 22/05/2023 5:56 am, Simon Lees via linux-aus wrote: > > > On 5/21/23 22:13, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: >> What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux?? When I >> Google this >> I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a >> language I like >> or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things >> if it is >> much easier than other options.? I would prefer C/C++. >> >> What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on >> Linux. >> When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all >> the >> basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an >> entry field >> and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any >> code. >> For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the screens >> graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry >> fields and >> API calls.? But I have the impression that no such thing exists for >> Linux. >> >> I know it sounds horrible, but something like VisualBasic for Linux >> would >> probably do. > > I have used pretty much all the Linux gui frameworks at some point, > and if I have the choice i'll always use Qt, if you know C++ once you > get your head around its event system and Signal Slots (Callback > System) everything is pretty straight forward and QtCreator will get > you a long way pretty quickly, it allows you to drag out and layout > UI's from components like buttons so all you have to do after is link > them to functions. > >> What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a >> phone and >> that requires less use of the command-line.? So shell scripts need to be >> replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server >> needs to be >> replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. > > I have used Qt with android in the past, I redid the main UI with > bigger buttons and with the android NDK installed was able to build > and deploy it as a test app. That was a few years back I haven't tried > recently. > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From tfeccles at gmail.com Mon May 22 09:29:44 2023 From: tfeccles at gmail.com (Colin Fee) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 09:29:44 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: I can concur with Adam's advice. In my previous role I managed a small team of Devs that produced software in support of medical research. To ensure the widest usability across devices and OSs, they wrote hybrid apps i.e. progressive web apps, in one flavour of Javascript or another (React, Angular etc). When run on a mobile device you couldn't tell if it was a web app. On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 00:29, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > > What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux? When I Google > this > > I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a language > I like > > or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things if > it is > > much easier than other options. I would prefer C/C++. > > For C/C++ you have to pick a toolkit like Qt, GTK, wxWidgets, etc. All > of them have their positives and negatives, and all of them require > this toolkit to be installed on the system you want to run the program > on. If you want to run your final program on a phone, make sure you > can install the toolkit on it before deciding on which one to use. > > > What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on > Linux. > > When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all > the > > basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an entry > field > > and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any > code. > > Most of these toolkits now have designers available that let you drag > and drop to develop the UI. Some are better than others, I suspect > because doing GUIs in traditional languages like C++ is very tedious so > most developers would rather be doing something else. > > > For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the screens > > graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry fields > and > > API calls. But I have the impression that no such thing exists for > Linux. > > If you are talking about API calls then HTML and Javascript starts to be > a viable option, especially based on your next point. > > > What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a > phone and > > that requires less use of the command-line. So shell scripts need to be > > replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server needs > to be > > replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. > > If you're going to run on a phone then it probably has a web browser, > so making a web page in Javascript is likely going to give you the > least painful result. > > A web app means you can run on pretty much any mobile device, tablet, > computer, etc. If you use C++ and a toolkit, it will be difficult to > run on iOS or Android devices as these have different toolkits to a > normal Linux PC - you have to actually write an iOS or Android app, > using whatever lanuages and toolkits the vendor supports. > > However if you go the web route, you can write a "progressive web app" > which is basically static HTML and some Javascript, which thanks to a > few extra config files, gets run on your phone as if it's an app you > installed through the app store. This means you get an icon on the > phone's home screen to launch the app, it runs full screen like a > native app, and with some additional code it can even run offline. > > Then you just need to handle the backend (actioning API requests coming > from the GUI elements on the web page) which you could do in C++ if you > wanted, but most people stick with Javascript so the language is the > same in both halves of the system. On a normal Linux machine you'd use > NodeJS to run the server code. You may be able to run this on a phone, > or it may be more practical to run it on another machine on your > network. > > I spent many years writing GUI code with C++ (on Windows and Linux) and > experimented with Python a bit, but once I realised how much quicker > GUIs are to develop as web sites, I never went back. > > There is a lot to learn if you've never done it before, especially to > make a really polished dynamic app using React or similar, but one good > thing about this is that it doesn't take too much to get basic code up > and running and you can expand from there. There are also many orders > of magnitude more people working on web sites than C++ GUIs, so there's > a lot more information out there and people who can help if you get > stuck. > > Cheers, > Adam. > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -- Colin Fee tfeccles at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From svetlana at members.fsf.org Mon May 22 09:34:25 2023 From: svetlana at members.fsf.org (Svetlana Tkachenko) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 09:34:25 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: <6f2b87c5-3b0e-44b1-aa1f-b46f31e2cdf5@app.fastmail.com> > What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux? When I Google this > I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a language I like > or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things if it is > much easier than other options. I would prefer C/C++. I like wxWidgets and Code::Blocks: at least there is one IDE for this toolkit; it is in C++; its look and feel are comparably reasonable. (My second best choice is GNUstep.) -- Svetlana Tkachenko, Associate Member of the Free Software Foundation = Gryllida, Volunteer for the Wikimedia movement in English and Russian http://www.wikimedia.org http://www.fsf.org http://www.gnu.org From paulway at mabula.net Mon May 22 10:37:17 2023 From: paulway at mabula.net (Paul Wayper) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 10:37:17 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: <49535b6b-35d4-4917-aa4b-4d954aa82176@app.fastmail.com> On Sun, May 21, 2023, at 10:43 PM, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > [snip] > What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a phone and > that requires less use of the command-line. So shell scripts need to be > replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server needs to be > replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. I feel like what you want, then, is a Web UI that allows you to run those tools. Flutter might be a reasonable substitute, as it seems to be able to be compiled to run on Android devices. Not sure about iOS. But that still seems to be a complicated work-around for running a CLI program from a phone - a web UI to a secured server seems a much better way to achieve that. I may be biased in this view, because I wrote a Web UI for a bunch of command line tools (doing DNA sequence processing) so that researchers could run CLI programs and get results without having to learn CLI syntax. Sadly it's long defunct, it was written in Perl, and I'd hosted it on my own Subversion server rather than on something sophisticated like GitHub. It'd be better to start from scratch on that. I'd imagine there are perfectly good CGI interfaces for C++, and then you can use HTML and CSS for the layout. HTH, Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rbs at muli.com.au Mon May 22 11:22:23 2023 From: rbs at muli.com.au (Skeoch, Ron) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 11:22:23 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <8f968dface9b84bc47e35fe06b10a020@muli.com.au> Hi we have developed a extensive linux GUi platform HTTPS://MULI.BIZ/ABOUT-MULI/LINUX-GDK-DEVELOPMENT-PLATFORM-MBBAG/ The magic is Gnome Broadwayd a browser output in html5 Regards --- Ronald Skeoch, MD. _Muli Management P/L_ _+61 02 94873241_ _https://www.muli.biz [1]_ On 22-05-2023 09:29, Colin Fee via linux-aus wrote: > I can concur with Adam's advice. In my previous role I managed a small > team of Devs that produced software in support of medical research. To > ensure the widest usability across devices and OSs, they wrote hybrid > apps i.e. progressive web apps, in one flavour of Javascript or another > (React, Angular etc). When run on a mobile device you couldn't tell if > it was a web app. > > On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 00:29, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus > wrote: > >>> What's the easiest way of doing GUI programming on Linux? When I >>> Google this >>> I get lots of results about Python programming, Python isn't a >>> language I like >>> or want to learn but I wouldn't rule out using it for simple things >>> if it is >>> much easier than other options. I would prefer C/C++. >> >> For C/C++ you have to pick a toolkit like Qt, GTK, wxWidgets, etc. >> All >> of them have their positives and negatives, and all of them require >> this toolkit to be installed on the system you want to run the program >> on. If you want to run your final program on a phone, make sure you >> can install the toolkit on it before deciding on which one to use. >> >>> What I would ideally like is a system like IBM's VisualAge for C++ on >>> Linux. >>> When using VisualAge C++ on OS/2 I could write a program that had all >>> the >>> basic controls and basic operations on them (EG enter text into an >>> entry field >>> and click a button to have it added to a listbox) without writing any >>> code. >> >> Most of these toolkits now have designers available that let you drag >> and drop to develop the UI. Some are better than others, I suspect >> because doing GUIs in traditional languages like C++ is very tedious >> so >> most developers would rather be doing something else. >> >>> For writing a GUI front-end to a server I could design all the >>> screens >>> graphically and then just write C code to copy data between entry >>> fields and >>> API calls. But I have the impression that no such thing exists for >>> Linux. >> >> If you are talking about API calls then HTML and Javascript starts to >> be >> a viable option, especially based on your next point. >> >>> What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a >>> phone and >>> that requires less use of the command-line. So shell scripts need to >>> be >>> replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server >>> needs to be >>> replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. >> >> If you're going to run on a phone then it probably has a web browser, >> so making a web page in Javascript is likely going to give you the >> least painful result. >> >> A web app means you can run on pretty much any mobile device, tablet, >> computer, etc. If you use C++ and a toolkit, it will be difficult to >> run on iOS or Android devices as these have different toolkits to a >> normal Linux PC - you have to actually write an iOS or Android app, >> using whatever lanuages and toolkits the vendor supports. >> >> However if you go the web route, you can write a "progressive web app" >> which is basically static HTML and some Javascript, which thanks to a >> few extra config files, gets run on your phone as if it's an app you >> installed through the app store. This means you get an icon on the >> phone's home screen to launch the app, it runs full screen like a >> native app, and with some additional code it can even run offline. >> >> Then you just need to handle the backend (actioning API requests >> coming >> from the GUI elements on the web page) which you could do in C++ if >> you >> wanted, but most people stick with Javascript so the language is the >> same in both halves of the system. On a normal Linux machine you'd >> use >> NodeJS to run the server code. You may be able to run this on a >> phone, >> or it may be more practical to run it on another machine on your >> network. >> >> I spent many years writing GUI code with C++ (on Windows and Linux) >> and >> experimented with Python a bit, but once I realised how much quicker >> GUIs are to develop as web sites, I never went back. >> >> There is a lot to learn if you've never done it before, especially to >> make a really polished dynamic app using React or similar, but one >> good >> thing about this is that it doesn't take too much to get basic code up >> and running and you can expand from there. There are also many orders >> of magnitude more people working on web sites than C++ GUIs, so >> there's >> a lot more information out there and people who can help if you get >> stuck. >> >> Cheers, >> Adam. >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > > -- > Colin Fee > tfeccles at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au Links: ------ [1] http://www.muli.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell at coker.com.au Mon May 22 21:39:05 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 21:39:05 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <4205066.uZKlY2gecq@xev> The Gambas feature set looks good, but when I tried running it on Debian/ Testing it aborted because it doesn't like Wayland. But I got a quick response to my bug report and installing gambas3-gb-gtk3-wayland fixed it, I'll have to go back to test that. Thanks for the suggestion Ashley and Andrew Pam. I tested out Lazarus, it seems pretty decent but it's a long way behind Visual Age C++. Pascal isn't my favourite language but it's a decent language that I don't mind using. At the moment it's in consideration. Thanks Jason. >From the web pages tkinter seems all about using functions to create GUI controls, that's good for some things but not for what I want to do. Thanks for the suggestion Jason. https://puri.sm/posts/my-first-year-of-librem-5-convergence/ My interest is in having Linux desktop systems and phones run in the same way (see the above URL). Support for iOS and Android isn't important to me in this. The comments about QT from Adamn Nielsen and Simon Lees are interesting, I had previously excluded it for what I now think are bad reasons. I'll try it out tomorrow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS Progressive web apps are interesting for some things and apparently have been tried on phones several times with Firefox OS being one of the most noteworthy. The fact that Firefox OS was abandoned might be considered evidence that a "everything as PWA" strategy is bad, but the fact that it got anywhere suggests that PWAs can be a useful part of a phone platform. It probably isn't the solution for my immediate problems but may be something to use at a later time. As an aside I don't like JavaScript at all. Thanks for the suggestion Adam Nielsen. Thanks for all the other suggestions, I haven't had time to go through them all yet. I'm averaging about half an hour per suggestion. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Tue May 23 02:36:27 2023 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: Hi Simon, On 5/21/2023 3:56 PM, Simon Lees via linux-aus wrote: >> What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a >> phone and >> that requires less use of the command-line.? So shell scripts need to be >> replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server >> needs to be >> replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. > > I have used Qt with android in the past, I redid the main UI with > bigger buttons and with the android NDK installed was able to build > and deploy it as a test app. That was a few years back I haven't tried > recently. > I forget - does Qt generally allow you to use C++ even on Android? The "internet" seems to say it does and many have had success doing so but I'm sure there'd be some random C++ library that just wouldn't work on a phone, and the QT docs don't make it easy to tell whether there are any gotchas and such. DSL > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From sflees at suse.de Tue May 23 04:46:54 2023 From: sflees at suse.de (Simon Lees) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 04:16:54 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> Message-ID: <77a00d37-9311-aa35-31da-cf6435390c00@suse.de> On 5/23/23 02:06, David Lloyd via linux-aus wrote: > > Hi Simon, > > On 5/21/2023 3:56 PM, Simon Lees via linux-aus wrote: >>> What I want to do is move many of the things I do on my laptop to a >>> phone and >>> that requires less use of the command-line.? So shell scripts need to be >>> replaced with GUI operations and ssh to run commands on a server >>> needs to be >>> replaced by API use or parsing ssh output for GUI display. >> >> I have used Qt with android in the past, I redid the main UI with >> bigger buttons and with the android NDK installed was able to build >> and deploy it as a test app. That was a few years back I haven't tried >> recently. >> > I forget - does Qt generally allow you to use C++ even on Android? Yes, generally C++ Qt apps will just compile for Android, It will compile the C++ code to a .so file then generate some basic java to load it and handle the C++ -> Java interactions. Having said that if your app isn't designed for mobile things like the menu system don't have the best user interaction so you may want to make some changes. > The "internet" seems to say it does and many have had success doing so > but I'm sure there'd be some random C++ library that just wouldn't work > on a phone, and the QT docs don't make it easy to tell whether there are > any gotchas and such. If your just using Qt Libraries they all work with the exception of the Serial and embedded web libraries. The Qt libraries do cover alot of stuff, I had good success with the Websockets lib for example. As for 3rd party libs that would depend more on if they work with the android ndk https://developer.android.com/ndk -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From ljk+la at ljk.id.au Tue May 23 22:48:02 2023 From: ljk+la at ljk.id.au (Les Kitchen) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 22:48:02 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] GUI programming In-Reply-To: <4205066.uZKlY2gecq@xev> References: <3571542.hdfAi7Kttb@cupcakke> <20230522002927.2be21254@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> <4205066.uZKlY2gecq@xev> Message-ID: <48ddb6ff-fbdb-45b9-b1bb-7f17e31dcd0f@app.fastmail.com> Hi Russell and everyone, On Mon, May 22, 2023, at 21:39, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: ... > https://puri.sm/posts/my-first-year-of-librem-5-convergence/ > > My interest is in having Linux desktop systems and phones run in the same way > (see the above URL). Support for iOS and Android isn't important to me in > this. Another approach to doing this, which I take, is to use a small chording keyboard with my phone to drive terminal interaction. That way, you have the full screen available, not losing any screen real-estate to the virtual keyboard, and with practice you can type at pretty close to full speed. This is easier with a phone with a good Unixy system underneath, like the Librem-5 or Pinephone, but can work on Android say with Termux. Of the available chording keyboards, my favorite is the Decatxt. It has separate Bluetooth and USB versions. I prefer the USB version. I find plugging in a cable less hassle than dealing with charging and pairing. I use the "convergence bar" that comes with the Pinephone to plug in the keyboard. (The Librem-5 has a similar accessory, and there others around that might work.) Or plug in using a tiny USB-A-to-USB-C adapter I found online, which fits inside the shell of the USB-A plug. (The inventor, Wayne Rasanen, is working on a new version of the Decatxt, which is combo Bluetooth and USB. I don't know when it will become available.) I'm actually such a fan of chording keyboards that I use it even on my laptops (as I'm doing now). I can sit back in a more comfortable position, without hunching over the main keyboard. With left hand on the chording keyboard, and right hand on my trackball, I don't have move my hand back and forth between main keyboard and trackball (or mouse). I find that with the Decatxt, I can type at about 70% of my speed on a good full-size keyboard, and that's good enough for most purposes. I'll use the full-size keyboard only when I'm typing in a big slab of text. The downside, aside from the expense of a low-volume piece of hardware, is that it took me several months of practice to develop sufficient competence for it to be useful. That is an investment of time which I found paid off. And it's probably less than the effort to touch-type well. It's worth looking at "The Mother of Demos" of 1968. Even though it's most famed for the introduction of the computer mouse, if you look closely at the videos, you can see that Doug Engelbart is also using a primitive chording keyboard. That's not mentioned on the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos but you can find more info from the "External Links" section. ... > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS > > Progressive web apps are interesting for some things and apparently have been > tried on phones several times with Firefox OS being one of the most > noteworthy. The fact that Firefox OS was abandoned might be considered > evidence that a "everything as PWA" strategy is bad, but the fact that it got > anywhere suggests that PWAs can be a useful part of a phone platform. It > probably isn't the solution for my immediate problems but may be something to > use at a later time. As an aside I don't like JavaScript at all. Thanks for > the suggestion Adam Nielsen. Yeah, I was going to mention Firefox OS, even before I read this. I have a Firefox phone (now used mainly as an alarm clock). It was a really nice idea. Sad that it didn't gain more traction ? and the idea of webbrowser-based apps. In general, it's hard to fight against the Apple/Google duopoly. In particular, I guess neither of them like the idea of an app that can run anywhere, and not just in their walled gardens. I'm no great fan of Javascript either (though I guess it is a functional-programming language in a way). Myself, I tend to think of it as Forth with infix syntax. However, quite a few compilers can emit Javascript as their target language. I'm most familiar with the Haskell compiler, GHC, but there are others. So, with the right setup, you can write Javascript webapps in your favorite language, and never have to look at Javascript itself. There's also Webassembly. > Thanks for all the other suggestions, I haven't had time to go through them > all yet. I'm averaging about half an hour per suggestion. Yeah, lots of suggestions from the good LA people. I've learnt plenty from the conversation too. ? Smiles, Les. From id at ypei.org Tue May 23 00:11:33 2023 From: id at ypei.org (Yuchen Pei) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 00:11:33 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] [clug] 2023 State of Tech Talent Report - Linux Foundation In-Reply-To: <680fb585-2a45-df0a-bb57-0bfe9d563bec@kathyreid.id.au> (Kathy Reid via linux's message of "Sun, 14 May 2023 17:04:27 +1000") References: <680fb585-2a45-df0a-bb57-0bfe9d563bec@kathyreid.id.au> Message-ID: <87h6s4v4kq.fsf@ypei.org> On Sun 2023-05-14 17:04:27 +1000, Kathy Reid via linux wrote: > Hi folks, > > With the uncertainty in the jobs market at the moment, you might be > interested in the Linux Foundation's State of Tech Talent Report; > granted, the Linux Foundation has a particular agenda in producing it, > but I found it a useful read to get a view of where the talent market > is heading. > > https://www.linuxfoundation.org/research/open-source-jobs-report-2023 > > See also: > https://www.zdnet.com/article/open-source-and-linux-skills-still-in-demand-in-a-dark-economy/ > > Best, Kathy Not looking good... https://linux.slashdot.org/story/23/05/15/0517232/red-hats-layoffs-included-fedora-program-manager Best, Yuchen -- PGP Key: 47F9 D050 1E11 8879 9040 4941 2126 7E93 EF86 DFD0 From russell at coker.com.au Mon May 29 12:53:54 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 12:53:54 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] pen testing work Message-ID: <4593762.U7HbjWM52l@xev> Anyone have good skills related to Linux pen testing and looking for a quick contract? Probably a day or two at most with limited scope, could be done on a weekend. Email me off-list if you are interested. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From russell at coker.com.au Tue May 30 21:17:47 2023 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 21:17:47 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice Message-ID: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> What's a good color multi-function printer (IE printer with built in scanner)? Only needs to work with Linux. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ From Marcus at herstik.com Tue May 30 21:38:48 2023 From: Marcus at herstik.com (Marcus herstik) Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 21:38:48 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> Message-ID: Hey Russell, Most modernist printers will work with CUPS. I have a Brother MFC and it works out of the box on Debian/Ubuntu derivatives. FWIW I use popOS. A bigger issue is the printer cartridges or toner prices. Regards, Marcus Herstik M: 0405-569-466 A: P.O. Box 2443, Burleigh Waters, QLD, 4220 > On 30 May 2023, at 9:18 pm, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: > > ?What's a good color multi-function printer (IE printer with built in scanner)? > Only needs to work with Linux. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From lloy0076 at adam.com.au Tue May 30 21:44:40 2023 From: lloy0076 at adam.com.au (David Lloyd) Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 07:44:40 -0400 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> Message-ID: <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> I'd have to agree: * Try to find one which cannot be bricked remotely by the company (because you're not using their over priced ink, for example); * And one which won't brick the scanner IF the printer has no ink/isn't working Unfortunately, the printer manufacturers seem to be finding ways - which I think have become legally concerning enough that the EU is starting to stare at them, so to speak - to make you pay for their own ink which either proves their completely incapable of negotiating good deals from suppliers (and thus pay a high price themselves) or just price the ink at rates that would be excessive in an otherwise free price market. On 5/30/2023 7:38 AM, Marcus herstik via linux-aus wrote: > Hey Russell, > Most modernist printers will work with CUPS. > I have a Brother MFC and it works out of the box on Debian/Ubuntu derivatives. > FWIW I use popOS. > A bigger issue is the printer cartridges or toner prices. > > Regards, > Marcus Herstik > > M: 0405-569-466 > A: P.O. Box 2443, Burleigh Waters, QLD, 4220 > >> On 30 May 2023, at 9:18 pm, Russell Coker via linux-aus wrote: >> >> ?What's a good color multi-function printer (IE printer with built in scanner)? >> Only needs to work with Linux. >> >> -- >> My Main Bloghttp://etbe.coker.com.au/ >> My Documents Bloghttp://doc.coker.com.au/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-aus mailing list >> linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au >> http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to >> linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Wed May 31 01:35:26 2023 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 01:35:26 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> Message-ID: <20230531013526.226bdc62@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > What's a good color multi-function printer (IE printer with built in scanner)? > Only needs to work with Linux. If you're on a budget, have a look on Gumtree. I got a colour laser printer/scanner for $1 and it has worked perfectly under Linux for many years (although admittedly I only print a few things a year). A laser is much better than ink-based if you're printing infrequently because you don't have to deal with dried up ink and clogged print heads. Most networked lasers will speak PostScript or PCL (and you can check the docs to confirm) and those will work fine with CUPS. I can't speak for the scanning function but if SANE lists it as a supported model then you will be good to go. I found a separate document scanner on Gumtree (a dedicated scanner that can scan a hundred or so sheets of double-sided paper in one continuous operation), and it also cost me only $1, because the vendor never released 64-bit Windows drivers so after some point it became useless to its original owner. But SANE supported it just fine. So there is plenty of decent hardware available on the cheap if you're willing to go second-hand, and because it's been around for a while there's a better than average chance it'll be well supported under Linux. Older hardware (especially higher-end stuff) is also less likely to be vendor locked for the ink/toner as David mentioned so that's another benefit too. Cheers Adam. From russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au Wed May 31 08:06:53 2023 From: russell-linuxaus at stuart.id.au (Russell Stuart) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 08:06:53 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> Message-ID: <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> On 30/5/23 21:44, David Lloyd via linux-aus wrote: > I'd have to agree: > > * Try to find one which cannot be bricked remotely by the company > (because you're not using their over priced ink, for example); There are two models of making money from printers. You can make money from selling the printer in which case the printer is expensive, or you can make money from selling the ink/toner. In the latter case the ink/toner is expensive, and they will try to prevent you from using third party supplies. I got heartily sick of going paying through the nose for ink/toner. You have to pay for the DRM chip included with it that prevents you from using cheap third party ink for Pete's sake. So I took a punt on buying an "expensive" printer. My choice was a Epson EcoTank, with postscipt/pcl. Having postscipt/pcl used to be the only way to be 100% sure you could get Linux to print to it. (Brother and the other manufacturers do publish their own drivers, but their quality/reliability is iffy at best.) Nowadays ensuring compatibility with mobile phones has gifted us "driverless printing", which Linux also supports. In fact the format originated with CUPS (although is slightly modified form the "CUPS Raster Format" it is derived from). I've had the printer for a while now. I can't recommend going the expensive printer / cheap ink highly enough. Because the printer is expensive it works well - they don't they to shave pennies on components. Mine has *never* jammed, and we have double sided printing on by default. It comes with weird features like it's own @print.epsonconnect.com email address. If you send an email to that address it gets printer, or so I'm told. Postscript / PCL comes only on the more expensive printers - but these are expensive so they tend to come with it. Inkjets rule now. In these expensive printers they've solved the heads clogging after long periods of sitting idle problem (but it relies on them always being powered). They are always colour, and they've always done colour better than lasers. Refilling with ink is now a totally painless affair - easier even than changing a toner cartridge. The printer came with 12,000 pages of tone in the box, and a 6000 page black refill costs $30 from Office Works. I doubt Epson gives a rats on whether you use their ink or someone else's, because they aren't making much money on the ink. In fact with 12k pages coming in the printer box I doubt they sell much of it. Needless to say you aren't paying for no stinking DRM chips embedded in the refill bottles. All manufacturers sell this style of printer now. I think the generic term is "continuous ink printer". I know people with Canon and Brother variants and the story is always the same. The love the things. Although I'm used the word "expensive", they are expensive compared to the $100 printer that costs $100 to refill. They cost less than most phones. The scanners on the MFP's are a different story. Mine scans (it's a ET-5170). But getting scanners to work has always been a struggle for me. The ET-5170 does scan from my laptop (and phone) using the Epson supplied close source binary. It's GUI looked very pretty on start up but isn't particularly ergonomic, and it segfaults on occasion. In my experience that's par for the course for vendor supplied software. If you can find a scanner supported by SANE you can use open source software, which will be more reliable. I couldn't. From bob.hepple at gmail.com Wed May 31 08:41:15 2023 From: bob.hepple at gmail.com (Bob Hepple) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 08:41:15 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> Message-ID: I've had a Brother MFC-L2700DW since 2016 and it's perfect on Fedora both as a scanner and printer (although B/W). Cheap after-market third-party toners too, no DRM. I imagine the newer Brothers are as good and judging by the traffic on r/LinuxQuestions their driver support is still good. Good luck On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:18, Russell Coker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > What's a good color multi-function printer (IE printer with built in > scanner)? > Only needs to work with Linux. > > -- > My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ > My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neil at brown.name Wed May 31 09:16:11 2023 From: neil at brown.name (NeilBrown) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 09:16:11 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke>, , <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au>, <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <168548857137.8729.524576870545104266@noble.neil.brown.name> On Wed, 31 May 2023, Russell Stuart wrote: > > The scanners on the MFP's are a different story. Mine scans (it's a > ET-5170). But getting scanners to work has always been a struggle for > me. The ET-5170 does scan from my laptop (and phone) using the Epson > supplied close source binary. It's GUI looked very pretty on start up > but isn't particularly ergonomic, and it segfaults on occasion. In my > experience that's par for the course for vendor supplied software. If > you can find a scanner supported by SANE you can use open source > software, which will be more reliable. I couldn't. The easiest way to scan on my MFPs is to connect to the embedded web server. It works, and doesn't require closed software (outside the computer). It certainly isn't ideal for high throughput, but the hardware itself can only take one page at a time, so if I wanted high throughput, I would buy different hardware. If I REALLY wanted to I could probably write a script with curl to automate some of it. NeilBrown From pb at barker.id.au Wed May 31 09:34:48 2023 From: pb at barker.id.au (Peter Barker) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 09:34:48 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <168548857137.8729.524576870545104266@noble.neil.brown.name> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> <168548857137.8729.524576870545104266@noble.neil.brown.name> Message-ID: My Canon PIXMA MG3660 scans fine using Skanlite (or XSane for more control). I don't do very much printing, but have had no problems. Using driver Canon MG3600 series Ver.5.20 - I think this is part of CUPS on Ubuntu? Peter Barker On 31/5/23 09:16, NeilBrown via linux-aus wrote: > On Wed, 31 May 2023, Russell Stuart wrote: >> >> The scanners on the MFP's are a different story. Mine scans (it's a >> ET-5170). But getting scanners to work has always been a struggle for >> me. The ET-5170 does scan from my laptop (and phone) using the Epson >> supplied close source binary. It's GUI looked very pretty on start up >> but isn't particularly ergonomic, and it segfaults on occasion. In my >> experience that's par for the course for vendor supplied software. If >> you can find a scanner supported by SANE you can use open source >> software, which will be more reliable. I couldn't. > > The easiest way to scan on my MFPs is to connect to the embedded web > server. It works, and doesn't require closed software (outside the > computer). It certainly isn't ideal for high throughput, but the > hardware itself can only take one page at a time, so if I wanted high > throughput, I would buy different hardware. > > If I REALLY wanted to I could probably write a script with curl to > automate some of it. > > NeilBrown > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From dp.maxime at gmail.com Wed May 31 10:10:50 2023 From: dp.maxime at gmail.com (Maxim Zakharov) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 10:10:50 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> <168548857137.8729.524576870545104266@noble.neil.brown.name> Message-ID: Hello I am using scangearmp2 utility with my Canon Pixma T8000 printer/scanner/copier on Ubuntu. This tool was downloaded from Canon web-site several years ago. It allows you to scan via network into PDF or JPEG. I have bought this printer in Officeworks aiming for one with the cheapest ink price per page. It runs without any issue for years with infrequent printing. Maxim On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 09:35, Peter Barker via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > My Canon PIXMA MG3660 scans fine using Skanlite (or XSane for more > control). I don't do very much printing, but have had no problems. > Using driver Canon MG3600 series Ver.5.20 - I think this is part of CUPS > on Ubuntu? > Peter Barker > > On 31/5/23 09:16, NeilBrown via linux-aus wrote: > > On Wed, 31 May 2023, Russell Stuart wrote: > >> > >> The scanners on the MFP's are a different story. Mine scans (it's a > >> ET-5170). But getting scanners to work has always been a struggle for > >> me. The ET-5170 does scan from my laptop (and phone) using the Epson > >> supplied close source binary. It's GUI looked very pretty on start up > >> but isn't particularly ergonomic, and it segfaults on occasion. In my > >> experience that's par for the course for vendor supplied software. If > >> you can find a scanner supported by SANE you can use open source > >> software, which will be more reliable. I couldn't. > > > > The easiest way to scan on my MFPs is to connect to the embedded web > > server. It works, and doesn't require closed software (outside the > > computer). It certainly isn't ideal for high throughput, but the > > hardware itself can only take one page at a time, so if I wanted high > > throughput, I would buy different hardware. > > > > If I REALLY wanted to I could probably write a script with curl to > > automate some of it. > > > > NeilBrown > > _______________________________________________ > > linux-aus mailing list > > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au > -- http://au.linkedin.com/in/dpmaxime/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kim at holburn.net Wed May 31 11:13:01 2023 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 11:13:01 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> Message-ID: <71c64707-d0b9-9e15-01e6-08a00939eece@holburn.net> I have an old Brother DCP-6690CW MFP which I keep because it's a great A3 scanner.? If I plug a USB memory stick into it it will scan to the stick.? Much simpler than messing with network scanning. On 2023/05/31 8:06 am, Russell Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > The scanners on the MFP's are a different story.? Mine scans (it's a > ET-5170).? But getting scanners to work has always been a struggle for > me.? The ET-5170 does scan from my laptop (and phone) using the Epson > supplied close source binary.? It's GUI looked very pretty on start up > but isn't particularly ergonomic, and it segfaults on occasion. In my > experience that's par for the course for vendor supplied software.? If > you can find a scanner supported by SANE you can use open source > software, which will be more reliable.? I couldn't. -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant +61 404072753 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request From steven.ellis at gmail.com Wed May 31 14:18:42 2023 From: steven.ellis at gmail.com (Steven Ellis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 16:18:42 +1200 Subject: [Linux-aus] printer advice In-Reply-To: <71c64707-d0b9-9e15-01e6-08a00939eece@holburn.net> References: <2353011.yKrmzQ4Hd0@cupcakke> <1106383a-7e98-7246-7f0c-02bed2a37e07@adam.com.au> <908fbb80-36ac-c77c-d9df-c79568e11f3b@stuart.id.au> <71c64707-d0b9-9e15-01e6-08a00939eece@holburn.net> Message-ID: We've got a Brother MFP (MFC 9140CDN) and Linux support has generally been excellent. We picked up this model as we wanted A3 printing support, and I can scan remotely over wifi via xsane or simple-scan. If we were replacing it I'd tend towards a refillable unit, but a the time there were limited A3 models so their prices were rather high. Steven On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 1:13?PM Kim Holburn via linux-aus < linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au> wrote: > I have an old Brother DCP-6690CW MFP which I keep because it's a great A3 > scanner. If I plug a USB memory stick into it it will > scan to the stick. Much simpler than messing with network scanning. > > On 2023/05/31 8:06 am, Russell Stuart via linux-aus wrote: > > The scanners on the MFP's are a different story. Mine scans (it's a > > ET-5170). But getting scanners to work has always been a struggle for > > me. The ET-5170 does scan from my laptop (and phone) using the Epson > > supplied close source binary. It's GUI looked very pretty on start up > > but isn't particularly ergonomic, and it segfaults on occasion. In my > > experience that's par for the course for vendor supplied software. If > > you can find a scanner supported by SANE you can use open source > > software, which will be more reliable. I couldn't. > > -- > Kim Holburn > IT Network & Security Consultant > +61 404072753 > mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn > skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saber at sayeed.email Wed May 31 17:49:45 2023 From: saber at sayeed.email (Saber Sayeed) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:49:45 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Become C programmer Message-ID: Just wondering what's the right/easiest way to get a C programming job. I have been working as a linux administrator. I have good understanding of the language and how it interacts with the OS. However, I don't have any professional experience. Any suggestions? From quozl at laptop.org Wed May 31 18:22:23 2023 From: quozl at laptop.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 18:22:23 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Become C programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you've been working as a Linux systems administrator, then you have been using C programs extensively, and are familiar with their primary interfaces; loading, running, stdin, stdout, stderr, filesystems, sockets, and interprocess communication. You can deepen this, using tools such as the source code, gdb, strace, valgrind, and tcpdump. Use them on top of how you use the programs. You can widen this by submitting patches to packages that use C, and if I may, I'll put up my hand here to say that the antique pptp and pptpd projects would welcome some attention; remarkably they are still used in some situations despite their terrible security; i.e. exactly the situations where convenience and terrible security are a desired feature because of in-country regulations. Build a pattern of successful contribution to C-based projects or packages, and you can put it down as professional experience that an interviewer or panel should pay attention to. That nobody paid for that experience is irrelevant. This pattern in general has worked for me. It takes effort to perform, and that effort too can be visible in an administrative or portfolio sense. A summary of the ideas can be found in http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html (regardless of what you or others may think of the author's other works). If you'd like to enjoy the coding even more, the Netrek game also needs attention. ;-) Needs to scale up to today's display resolutions. On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:49:45PM +1000, Saber Sayeed via linux-aus wrote: > Just wondering what's the right/easiest way to get a C programming job. I > have been working as a linux administrator. I have good understanding of the > language and how it interacts with the OS. However, I don't have any > professional experience. Any suggestions? > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus at lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/mailman/listinfo/linux-aus > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to > linux-aus-unsubscribe at lists.linux.org.au From a.nielsen at shikadi.net Wed May 31 19:11:34 2023 From: a.nielsen at shikadi.net (Adam Nielsen) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 19:11:34 +1000 Subject: [Linux-aus] Become C programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20230531191134.46d00c44@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> > Just wondering what's the right/easiest way to get a C programming job. > I have been working as a linux administrator. I have good understanding > of the language and how it interacts with the OS. However, I don't have > any professional experience. Any suggestions? There are a few challenges when looking to employ a programmer, if you're responsible for a team of them. The main ones: 1. How well do they know the language? Can they understand our existing code? How quickly do they learn new things? 2. Are they a "lone wolf" who is never wrong, or will they work well in our team? If you are willing to contribute to open source projects, then you'll be able to give prospective employers answers to both these questions. For the first one, they can look at the project's version history to see your commits, which will very quickly give them a good idea of your level of expertise. For the second one, contributing to a larger open source project is only possible if you're willing to make compromises. You have to accept criticism of your code, address feedback, make changes, deal with the occasional rejection, and all of that directly translates to the skills needed when working in a team of programmers. It also demonstrates familiarity with tools like git, participating in code reviews and discussions, and so on. There's also a more subtle note too. Those who have a passion for programming usually write better code, have more up-to-date skills and are generally more productive, as opposed to those who got into programming only because it was a decently paid career. The ones who have a passion for it are far more likely to be open source contributors than those who only do it to pay the bills. So all else being equal, the applicant with open source credentials will often be looked at more favourably than the one who stops coding at 5pm. Obviously this is a generalisation but it often holds true. It does lose some relevance as people get older, as families and other commitments reduce the time available for hobbies, but even a busy person who is passionate about programming will still find the time to occasionally submit bug fixes for the applications they use, even if only out of frustration! So if you can show that you are successfully contributing to one or more open source projects (where you aren't the one calling all the shots) then it will remove a large amount of uncertainty about your skills and abilities, which is probably the biggest barrier to getting a job in any profession. Everyone is familiar with the catch-22 of needing experience to get a job, but being unable to get that experience without the job, so this is one way around that problem. However this is mostly relevant only if you're looking to join an existing team within an organisation. If you are a lone wolf and don't want to work with others then the approach will be different, as you'll likely be interviewed by people who won't necessarily have a technical background. In this case it won't be too much different to any other role (like a sysadmin for a small business). However in my opinion this career path has drawbacks, because you miss out on learning from your peers and always being encouraged to improve your skills. You are far more likely to get stuck doing the same thing and never advancing, unless you happen to be the type of person who is always trying to learn new things - but even then without anyone to advise you if you're heading in the wrong direction, it's very easy to unknowingly pick up bad habits. Anyway, sorry for the long message but hopefully some part of it was useful! Cheers, Adam. From sflees at suse.de Wed May 31 22:56:10 2023 From: sflees at suse.de (Simon Lees) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 22:26:10 +0930 Subject: [Linux-aus] Become C programmer In-Reply-To: <20230531191134.46d00c44@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> References: <20230531191134.46d00c44@vorticon.teln.shikadi.net> Message-ID: <6a9a2698-db9e-824e-899e-34b096988e0e@suse.de> On 5/31/23 18:41, Adam Nielsen via linux-aus wrote: >> Just wondering what's the right/easiest way to get a C programming job. >> I have been working as a linux administrator. I have good understanding >> of the language and how it interacts with the OS. However, I don't have >> any professional experience. Any suggestions? > > There are a few challenges when looking to employ a programmer, if > you're responsible for a team of them. The main ones: > > 1. How well do they know the language? Can they understand our > existing code? How quickly do they learn new things? > > 2. Are they a "lone wolf" who is never wrong, or will they work well > in our team? > > If you are willing to contribute to open source projects, then you'll be > able to give prospective employers answers to both these questions. > > For the first one, they can look at the project's version history to > see your commits, which will very quickly give them a good idea of your > level of expertise. > > For the second one, contributing to a larger open source project is > only possible if you're willing to make compromises. You have to accept > criticism of your code, address feedback, make changes, deal with the > occasional rejection, and all of that directly translates to the skills > needed when working in a team of programmers. It also demonstrates > familiarity with tools like git, participating in code reviews and > discussions, and so on. I was going to say basically the same as above with one additional point being that, contributing to larger open source projects shows that you can read and understand code that you didn't write yourself which is really important in many teams including mine where your often either fixing or adding new features to legacy code rather then writing new code from scratch. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: