From jon@ivt.com.au Fri Aug 1 06:42:12 2003 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au (90-203.dsl.connexus.net.au [203.222.90.203]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h6VMfloi030730 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:42:11 +0800 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au (jon [127.0.0.1]) by jon.ivt.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h6VMh1vU024950; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:43:01 +1000 Received: (from jon@localhost) by jon.ivt.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h6VMh1cw024948; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:43:01 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: jon.ivt.com.au: jon set sender to jon@ivt.com.au using -f Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Has M$ bought off the SA Govt ? From: Jonathan Oxer To: Pia Smith Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <1059641972.12182.2161.camel@fehung> References: <002c01c34a7a$0430d300$027f1fcb@pumpkin> <20030715033240.GN3534@cyber.com.au> <200307151253.05463.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <3F13971D.7020506@braintree.com.au> <1059641972.12182.2161.camel@fehung> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Internet Vision Technologies Message-Id: <1059691380.24602.11.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 1 06:47:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 01 Aug 2003 08:43:00 +1000 On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 18:59, Pia Smith wrote: > Someone was doing a case studies page at some point, how is that going? > And have people contributed to it? I've found case studies to be our > best resource at this point :) I started a list at http://jon.oxer.com.au/linuxrollouts/, and rapidly discovered that I should have done it using a database rather than a static page. I've had some suggestions for items to add to the list as well as a better way to manage the classifications, and I'm hoping to get some time to re-write it as a dynamic page and add the extra content next week sometime (I'm heading up to Sydney for a few days starting tomorrow to work on a client's M$ network - blech, this is the first time in several years that I've touched Windows machines, and it's making me feel all dirty) Cheers Jonathan From bw@wallis.id.au Fri Aug 1 07:19:55 2003 Received: from web-gate.datafont.com.au (202-44-175-165.nexnet.net.au [202.44.175.165]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h6VNJNoi002630 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:19:55 +0800 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [192.168.18.2]) by web-gate.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h6VNpPZH022156 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:51:25 +1000 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [192.168.18.2] (may be forged)) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h6VNqMUn020998 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:52:22 +1000 Received: (from bw@localhost) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h6VNqMQ6020996; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:52:22 +1000 Message-Id: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: web-1.datafont.com.au: bw set sender to bw@wallis.id.au using -f From: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Cc: X-Originating-IP: 192.168.18.1 X-Mailer: Usermin 1.020 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 1 07:20:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:52:22 +1000 Hi, Jeff Waugh wrote .. > > > IMHO if this gets through, we lose and if it doesn't we lose as well. > I > > form this opinion because the idea will create public debate which > > highlights an argument that restricts freedom and suggests Open Source > is the silver bullet (whether users like it or not). > > I have been talking with various people from the smaller parties about > these issues, and hope to tilt their perspective a bit. They're definitely > trying to do the right thing, but we must help them find the best way. We're > not so good at the politicking, they're not so good at the hacking -> teaming > up is lots of fun. :-) Hmm, would not greater advantage be gained by a high profile Open Source driven office? I wonder if the Democrats or Greens would consider a complete swap of their systems. Now that really would be something... Has anyone ever made an approach along these lines? For the sake of community contribution, this sort of project would be a worthwhile "donate free consultancy time" excercise wouldn't it? BW From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri Aug 1 11:05:59 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-171-8.arach.net.au [202.89.171.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7135Roi029143 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:05:59 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC5A13CCA for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:09:06 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C751913CCA for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:09:04 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308011109.04292.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 1 11:06:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:09:04 +0800 On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:52, Brent Wallis (IS) wrote: > Hmm, would not greater advantage be gained by a high profile Open > Source driven office? I wonder if the Democrats or Greens would > consider a complete swap of their systems. Now that really would be > something... > Has anyone ever made an approach along these lines? > For the sake of community contribution, this sort of project would be > a worthwhile "donate free consultancy time" excercise wouldn't it? Very much agree, may be doing this shortly for DOIR through SLPWA over here in the most isolated city in the world. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Fri Aug 1 13:54:19 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-171-8.arach.net.au [202.89.171.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h715rsoi016241 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:54:19 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E853B13CCA for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:57:37 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C0C13CCA for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:57:36 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308011357.35759.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] If you refuse to build it, they will come anyway. (-: Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 1 13:55:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:57:35 +0800 http://computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,83406,00.html But while cleaning up Mumu [virus] in remote offices, we discovered something else: We have a growing number of unofficial Linux installations on desktops and servers throughout the company [...] Until now, we haven't had a policy on using Linux because there wasn't a need. One year ago, only a small subset of users ran Linux. The Linux desktops mostly belonged to developers or quality assurance and technical support staffers responsible for supporting our company's software on Linux. Now there are many more. Employees are installing Linux on their desktops, either as the primary operating system or as a second one alongside Windows 2000, our corporate standard. [...] We can't eliminate Linux, so the solution is to create standard baselines for our Linux systems, just as we do for Solaris and Windows. We'll start by doing this for our Linux-based Web, application and database servers. As with our Solaris and Windows systems, we will use imaging software and create a "jump-start" system configuration that will serve as the baseline configuration for all machines. Hopefully, this will keep security problems to a minimum. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Fri Aug 1 14:07:00 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7166Qoi017768 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:06:59 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA24643; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:06:22 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4E0E657BADD; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:06:22 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] If you refuse to build it, they will come anyway. (-: Message-ID: <20030801060622.GA2553@cyber.com.au> References: <200308011357.35759.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308011357.35759.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 1 14:07:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:06:22 +1000 On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 01:57:35PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > > http://computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,83406,00.html > > But while cleaning up Mumu [virus] in remote offices, we > discovered something else: We have a growing number of > unofficial Linux installations on desktops and servers > throughout the company [...] Cool, let me add another item of interest from the same journal: Lawyer warns about surrendering to SCO http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=179822653&fp=16&fpid=0 ... "A user who believes they are entitled to [legally] use a product doesn't have to prove to someone asserting a contrary right that he is correct. It's up to the people who assert that they own the copyright to get their ducks in a row and be in a position to prove it. "The Copyright Act here is quite explicit about that. A copyright owner can't make unjustified threats, that is assert that it will be an infringement of copyright if they haven't got their own ducks in a row from the point of view of being able to prove they are the copyright owner. "The Copyright Act [section 202] provides a counter balance to those sorts of statements. Someone asserting to be a copyright owner cannot make a threat of infringement unless, in practical terms, they are confident they are the copyright owner. If there is any doubt about that then they could be in deep trouble in asserting infringement. Section 202 gives to someone against whom a claim is made a right to go to [the Federal] Court to get these people to stop making these threats," Collins told Computerworld. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub@perkypants.org Fri Aug 1 16:16:19 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-10.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.42]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h718Fuoi000406 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:16:19 +0800 Received: (qmail 32433 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2003 07:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 1 Aug 2003 07:56:10 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33E13C89; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:55:58 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9FA1010B930; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:55:58 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft Message-ID: <20030801075557.GB1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: "Brent Wallis (IS)" , linux-aus@linux.org.au References: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> Reply-By: Mon Aug 4 17:54:23 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 17:54:23 up 5 days, 18:52, 3 users, load average: 1.12, 0.50, 0.36 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 1 16:17:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:55:58 +1000 > Hmm, would not greater advantage be gained by a high profile Open Source > driven office? I wonder if the Democrats or Greens would consider a > complete swap of their systems. Now that really would be something... > > Has anyone ever made an approach along these lines? For the sake of > community contribution, this sort of project would be a worthwhile "donate > free consultancy time" excercise wouldn't it? I think so too - they're definitely willing to walk the walk, and have demonstrated this a number of times. It would be good PR, and good community work. Hmm... and I have a whole relaxing weekend away to muse upon this. ;-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "NASCAR is not race per se. It's just a contest about who can turn left the best." - Unknown From j-conversations@decisions-and-designs.com.au Sat Aug 2 11:44:05 2003 Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h723hjoi029188 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:44:05 +0800 Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6C25FDB7 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:43:45 +0800 (WST) Received: from chicory.decisions-and-designs.com.au (adsl-202-72-160-9.prem.westnet.com.au [202.72.160.9]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122E65FDA8 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:43:45 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030802104709.00b59ef0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> X-Sender: j-conversations@decisions-and-designs.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au From: Jacqueline McNally Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Linux-aus] Open Systems, Open Networks: An Interoperability Framework for E-Learning Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat Aug 2 11:45:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:28:04 +0800 The following forum may be of interest to those that are interested in standards and the education and training sectors. Program: http://standards.edna.edu.au/forum/03_forum_program.pdf Registration is free. Open Systems, Open Networks: An Interoperability Framework for E-Learning The Australian Information and Communications Technology in Education Committee (AICTEC) http://www.aictec.edu.au/ Standards Sub-Committee http://www.standards.edna.edu.au/ Industry Forum http://www.edna.edu.au/edna/page1542.html Sponsored by the Department of Education, Science and Training. Novotel Sydney on Darling Harbour, Australia Wednesday 3 and Thursday 4 September 2003 The AICTEC Standards Sub-Committee is holding an Industry Forum that will provide a unique opportunity for key industry participants and policy makers from the Australian education and training sector to consider: * New strategies and approaches to standards aimed at achieving interoperability in the development of digital content, learning objects and learning and content management systems. * Frameworks and standards needed to support the management of education and training systems. * Ways in which firms and governments can work to achieve interoperability between products and services. * The value of a formal working relationship between educational technology developers and vendors and Australian education and training sectors. Dr Robby Robson of the US will be attending the forum as the key-note speaker. Dr Robson is the Chair, IEEE Learning Technology Standards Committee (http://ltsc.ieee.org/), and President and Senior Partner, Eduworks Corporation (http://www.eduworks.com/) - a leading consultant to the US e-learning industry. Other speakers will present case studies demonstrating the use of technical standards to support interoperability and the advantages of utilising commercial open standards-based products in education and training projects. The forum will be of interest to: * developers and vendors of educational content, multimedia, content management and learning management systems * consultants and vendors in the area of online learning * ICT industry associations * ICT policy makers, managers and administrators in education and training. For further information and to register for the forum: http://www.edna.edu.au/edna/page1542.html All the best Jacqueline McNally www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand OpenOffice.org Marketing Project (www.openoffice.org) Are you a computer angel? (www.computerangels.org.au) From arjen@mysql.com Mon Aug 4 10:41:13 2003 Received: from george.bitbike.com (c210-49-47-235.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au [210.49.47.235]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h742ecoi029496 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:41:13 +0800 Received: (from arjen@localhost) by george.bitbike.com (8.11.6/linuxconf) id h742eMf17413; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:40:22 +1000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft From: Arjen Lentz To: Jeff Waugh Cc: "Brent Wallis (IS)" , linux-aus@linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030801075557.GB1362@lazarus> References: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> <20030801075557.GB1362@lazarus> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Message-Id: <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 10:42:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 04 Aug 2003 12:40:21 +1000 Hi Jeff, Brent, all, On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 17:55, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Hmm, would not greater advantage be gained by a high profile Open Source > > driven office? I wonder if the Democrats or Greens would consider a > > complete swap of their systems. Now that really would be something... > > > > Has anyone ever made an approach along these lines? For the sake of > > community contribution, this sort of project would be a worthwhile "donate > > free consultancy time" excercise wouldn't it? > > I think so too - they're definitely willing to walk the walk, and have > demonstrated this a number of times. It would be good PR, and good community > work. Hmm... and I have a whole relaxing weekend away to muse upon this. ;-) Probably pointing out the obvious, but doesn't hurt: We must be very careful with exercises such as these. Past attempts to migrate organisations "to prove the point" have failed miserably, and can be used nicely in PR as proof that "FOSS doesn't work". So, without making promises "oh we'll migrate you guys", a very thorough assessment needs to be done of what they have now and what their requirements are. No loose ends. And perhaps (not unlikely) the conclusion will be that certain parts can be migrated, but not all (yet). If something "might work", put it down as a "not yet". These things are too tricky to gamble with. I think that a partial migration would already be a great thing. Smaller steps also make people less apprehensive about change. And chances are, they'll be ready for another step at some point. Regards, Arjen. -- Arjen Lentz, Technical Writer, Trainer Brisbane, QLD Australia MySQL AB, www.mysql.com I'm MySQL certified. Are you? www.mysql.com/certification Training,Support,Licenses,T-shirts @ https://order.mysql.com/?marl From leon@cyberknights.com.au Mon Aug 4 10:54:40 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h742sIoi031084 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:54:39 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AD713CCA for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:55:12 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761CD13CCA for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:55:11 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> <20030801075557.GB1362@lazarus> <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308041055.10914.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 10:55:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:55:10 +0800 On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:40, Arjen Lentz wrote: > So, without making promises "oh we'll migrate you guys", a very > thorough assessment needs to be done of what they have now and what > their requirements are. No loose ends. > And perhaps (not unlikely) the conclusion will be that certain parts > can be migrated, but not all (yet). If something "might work", put it > down as a "not yet". These things are too tricky to gamble with. > I think that a partial migration would already be a great thing. > Smaller steps also make people less apprehensive about change. And > chances are, they'll be ready for another step at some point. Hear, hear! (-: AKA "me too" post :-) Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From jdub@perkypants.org Mon Aug 4 10:55:35 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-03.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.35]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h742tAoi031179 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:55:35 +0800 Received: (qmail 32224 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2003 02:49:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 4 Aug 2003 02:49:15 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C693D3C89; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:48:57 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4FE8410B945; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:48:57 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Arjen Lentz Cc: "Brent Wallis (IS)" , linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft Message-ID: <20030804024857.GZ1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Arjen Lentz , "Brent Wallis (IS)" , linux-aus@linux.org.au References: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> <20030801075557.GB1362@lazarus> <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> Reply-By: Thu Aug 7 12:48:37 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 12:48:37 up 8 days, 13:46, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 10:57:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:48:57 +1000 > So, without making promises "oh we'll migrate you guys", a very thorough > assessment needs to be done of what they have now and what their > requirements are. No loose ends. > And perhaps (not unlikely) the conclusion will be that certain parts can > be migrated, but not all (yet). If something "might work", put it down > as a "not yet". These things are too tricky to gamble with. Yes, absolutely -> reality before dogma. :-) - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBM http://sco.iwethey.org/ Grind'n'wink. That is all. From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon Aug 4 12:43:31 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h744hCoi010929 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:43:31 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:12:55 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Arjen Lentz Cc: Jeff Waugh , "Brent Wallis (IS)" , linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Greens battle Microsoft Message-Id: <20030804141259.2ad64923.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> References: <200307312352.h6VNqMQ6020996@web-1.datafont.com.au> <20030801075557.GB1362@lazarus> <1059964821.3030.41.camel@localhost> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 12:44:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:12:59 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Arjen et al, > > I think so too - they're definitely willing to walk the walk, and have > > demonstrated this a number of times. It would be good PR, and good > > community work. Hmm... and I have a whole relaxing weekend away to muse > > upon this. ;-) > > Probably pointing out the obvious, but doesn't hurt: > > We must be very careful with exercises such as these. Past attempts to > migrate organisations "to prove the point" have failed miserably, and > can be used nicely in PR as proof that "FOSS doesn't work". ComputerBank in SA are going to offer Ian Gilfillan (Democrat who is sponsoring an FOSS style bill in SA) a "lend" of a computer. This is to help Ian understand part of what he's promoting first hand. After Ian's played with the system for a bit he'll donate it to a recipient on our behalf. DSL - -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/LeRTNBhAwwyvg/kRAiMvAJ4rbEQWuIpxPaIEbau9z9bBrEcPXACfbpsB HM7+QIdf4P8/UnwGeYk0QYU= =wO11 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 4 14:04:37 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7464Foi019710 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:04:36 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA10947 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:04:15 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8F77957BADD; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:04:14 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:05:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:04:14 +1000 http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6861814%255E15306,00.html LINUX penetration within Australian enterprises may reach 90 per cent within three years, but it will remain a niche technology, with only 10 to 15 per cent of IT infrastructure running on the open source software, according to Gartner. According to a survey of 121 large Australian companies, about 52 per cent of businesses now use Linux in their server environment - up from 39 per cent last year. Australian companies follow Taiwan in being the Asia Pacific region's highest adopters of the technology. ... Even with this phenomenonal growth rate, they claim it to be a niche player. The interesting thing is the fact that Gartner claims Linux will reach 90% of organisations within 3 years. What's particularly strange is that Linux's deployment characteristics normally follow a path where an organisation which deploys it, ends up deploying many many more systems over time. Normally, the hardest thing is to get Linux in the front door. Once it has its foot in, it spreads organically throughout an organisation, and often usurps many other platforms that were there beforehand. Maybe we can re-brand Linux the prickly-pear of platforms? ;-) -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From grog@lemis.com Mon Aug 4 14:13:38 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h746DHoi020714 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:13:37 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6D419526A1; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:43:12 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Con Zymaris Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, AUUG Talk List Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? Message-ID: <20030804061312.GC95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="t/xij+/rrg19Q5ki" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:14:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:43:12 +0930 --t/xij+/rrg19Q5ki Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Monday, 4 August 2003 at 16:04:14 +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6861814%255E15306,00.html > > LINUX penetration within Australian enterprises may reach 90 per cent > within three years, but it will remain a niche technology, with only 10 > to 15 per cent of IT infrastructure running on the open source software, > according to Gartner. You may be unfair to Gartner to attribute this kind of nonsense to them. I'd guess that the reporter meant something like 90% growth. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --t/xij+/rrg19Q5ki Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/Lfl4IubykFB6QiMRAuBCAJ9gfZ4slvREPBuJOq1z7y9nfDsdEwCdFpbc c3IkuefQprZdqOp+v2ZwcY4= =OZ8p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --t/xij+/rrg19Q5ki-- From thaytan@mad.scientist.com Mon Aug 4 14:16:11 2003 Received: from mailhub.datafast.net.au (mailhub.datafast.net.au [203.123.67.14]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h746Fhoi021013 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:16:11 +0800 Received: (qmail 35233 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2003 06:15:40 -0000 Received: from adsl-2-022.nsw.dft.com.au (HELO cerberus.home.net) (202.76.176.22) by mailhub.datafast.net.au with SMTP; 4 Aug 2003 06:15:40 -0000 Received: from oven (unknown [192.168.0.12]) by cerberus.home.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD9514055 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:15:38 +1000 (EST) Received: by oven (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A261F23081; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:15:38 +1000 (EST) From: Jan Schmidt To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? Message-ID: <20030804061538.GF7288@oven.home.net> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> X-Operating-System: Debian Linux http://www.debian.org X-Uptime: 16:14:56 up 7 days, 21:06, 3 users, load average: 0.29, 0.21, 0.18 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:17:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:15:38 +1000 > > Maybe we can re-brand Linux the prickly-pear of platforms? ;-) > Isn't that the one they introduced a worm to get rid of? ;-) J. -- Jan Schmidt thaytan@mad.scientist.com I came for the quality. I stayed for the freedom. -- Sean Neakums From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 4 14:22:01 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h746Leoi021765 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:22:00 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA11120; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:21:39 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BFFEA57BADD; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:21:38 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? Message-ID: <20030804062138.GY26076@cyber.com.au> References: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> <20030804061538.GF7288@oven.home.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030804061538.GF7288@oven.home.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:22:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:21:38 +1000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 04:15:38PM +1000, Jan Schmidt wrote: > > > > > > Maybe we can re-brand Linux the prickly-pear of platforms? ;-) > > > > Isn't that the one they introduced a worm to get rid of? ;-) A beetle from Brazil, IIRC. (no, not V-W :-) -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From lesbell@lesbell.com.au Mon Aug 4 14:30:33 2003 Received: from bifrost.lesbell.com.au (ffps.lesbell.com.au [203.35.202.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h746UAoi022753 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:30:33 +0800 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? To: Con Zymaris Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Les Bell" X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Bifrost/Les Bell and Associates Pty Ltd(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/08/2003 04:30:32 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:31:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:29:57 +1000 Con Zymaris > What's particularly strange is that Linux's deployment characteristics normally follow a path where an organisation which deploys it, ends up deploying many many more systems over time. << Correctamento. And what Gartner may be getting at is that this is not what organisations *plan* to do. On the face of it, either Gartner or the reporter are saying that 90% of enterprises will be running Linux *somewhere*, but on average, they'll use it for only 10-15% of their infrastructure. Though just what that means is anyone's guess - 10-15% of boxes? 10-15% of protocols/daemons? The little daemon on my left shoulder keeps saying that the Linux 10% of the boxes could easily be doing 90% of the useful work, with nine times as many Windows boxes required just to ensure that one of them is running at any one time. This is one of Gartner's weaknesses: they survey their clients about what they plan to do, then tell them what they're planning to do, and then reality comes along and . . . well, you can see the result. This approach strongly favours the status quo, of course. >> Normally, the hardest thing is to get Linux in the front door. Once it has its foot in, it spreads organically throughout an organisation, and often usurps many other platforms that were there beforehand. << Bingo. I'm doing some work this week for a company that has just implemented its first application on Linux (on a mainframe, this is) and now they want me to run my "LX101: Linux - A Management Perspective" course so that they can review the opportunities for implementing it elsewhere, review strengths/weaknesses, project risks, and so on. I predict there'll be penguins all over the place in 18 months or so. . . Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au] From misskim@stephanie.vergenet.net Mon Aug 4 14:40:42 2003 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (stephanie.vergenet.net [203.222.130.46]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h746eKoi023926 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:40:42 +0800 Received: from stephanie.vergenet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h746eKSJ031891 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:40:20 +1000 Received: (from misskim@localhost) by stephanie.vergenet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h746eKBl031889 for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:40:20 +1000 From: Kimberly Shelt To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? Message-ID: <20030804064020.GC27231@linmagau.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:41:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:40:20 +1000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 04:29:57PM +1000, Les Bell wrote: > Correctamento. And what Gartner may be getting at is that this is not what > organisations *plan* to do. On the face of it, either Gartner or the > reporter are saying that 90% of enterprises will be running Linux > *somewhere*, but on average, they'll use it for only 10-15% of their > infrastructure. Though just what that means is anyone's guess - 10-15% of > boxes? 10-15% of protocols/daemons? The little daemon on my left shoulder > keeps saying that the Linux 10% of the boxes could easily be doing 90% of > the useful work, with nine times as many Windows boxes required just to > ensure that one of them is running at any one time. There are specific questions in the survey on LinMagAu this month with regard to this very issue :) So far the results and certainly the comments by participants strongly suggest the above.. I feel we may be preaching to the converted here in this list, however :) Perhaps I can spam the world (the non converted to *nix world) with our results at the end of the month.. ? Suggestion on where or whom happily accepted. Kimberly Shelt -- http://www.linmagau.org Do the survey now ! :) From David.Purdue@Sun.COM Mon Aug 4 14:49:41 2003 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h746nJoi024903 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:49:41 +0800 Received: from phys-soms-1 ([129.158.80.181]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h746nBBp027385 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (dhcp-mel06-90-83.Aus.Sun.COM [129.158.90.83]) by soms-mail1.Aus.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.10 (built Jan 23 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ300LAZ1LYAP@soms-mail1.Aus.Sun.COM> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:49:11 +1000 (EST) From: David Purdue Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? In-reply-to: <20030804061312.GC95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Con Zymaris , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, AUUG Talk List Message-id: <3F2E01E5.3080002@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems Australia Pty Ltd MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 References: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> <20030804061312.GC95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:50:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:49:09 +1000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 4 August 2003 at 16:04:14 +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > >>http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6861814%255E15306,00.html >> >> LINUX penetration within Australian enterprises may reach 90 per cent >> within three years, but it will remain a niche technology, with only 10 >> to 15 per cent of IT infrastructure running on the open source software, >> according to Gartner. (Leaps to defence of Gartner - stops to wonder what the hell he is doing - carries on leap anyway. ;-) ) What the report is saying is that Linux will reach 90% of ENTERPRISES, but only 10-15% of SERVERS. I don't know if this is true or not, but at least it has no internal inconsistency. DavidP From lesbell@lesbell.com.au Mon Aug 4 14:58:56 2003 Received: from bifrost.lesbell.com.au (ffps.lesbell.com.au [203.35.202.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h746wXoi025981 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:58:55 +0800 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? To: Kimberly Shelt Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Les Bell" X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Bifrost/Les Bell and Associates Pty Ltd(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/08/2003 04:58:55 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 14:59:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:58:28 +1000 Kimberly Shelt wrote: >> So far the results and certainly the comments by participants strongly suggest the above.. I feel we may be preaching to the converted here in this list, however :) << Undoubtedly. . . The adoption pattern we're discussing is symptomatic of bottom-up implementation, i.e. technical people going ahead and implementing Linux and other FOSS systems in the face of top-down strategies that favour Windows or other platforms. This is one of the corollaries of Putt's Law: Technology is dominated by two kinds of people: Those who understand what they do not manage, And those who manage what they do not understand. This was meant to be humorous, I think (I first saw it in someone's .sig line) but I believe it conveys a fundamental truth of ICT management. We saw similar patterns in the days when OS/2 was The Great Hope: the techos were raving about how good it was, and initially managers were willing to listen, but in the end it was the completely non-technical users' demands that won the day. Of course, the battle back then was for the desktop, and users should have virtually no influence in the data centre, but it's worth remembering that the inherent quality of the software is not enough - usability, interoperability, documentation and support/training issues also weigh heavily on managers trying to think strategically. Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au] From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 4 18:55:22 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h74Assoi018916 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:55:21 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA12593; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:54:52 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B0D8657BADD; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:54:51 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David Purdue Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, AUUG Talk List Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] Who can make sense of Gartner's prognostications? Message-ID: <20030804105451.GP12768@cyber.com.au> References: <20030804060414.GS26076@cyber.com.au> <20030804061312.GC95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3F2E01E5.3080002@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F2E01E5.3080002@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 4 18:56:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:54:51 +1000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 04:49:09PM +1000, David Purdue wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >On Monday, 4 August 2003 at 16:04:14 +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > >>http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6861814%255E15306,00.html > >> > >>LINUX penetration within Australian enterprises may reach 90 per cent > >>within three years, but it will remain a niche technology, with only 10 > >>to 15 per cent of IT infrastructure running on the open source software, > >>according to Gartner. > > (Leaps to defence of Gartner - stops to wonder what the hell he is > doing - carries on leap anyway. ;-) ) > > What the report is saying is that Linux will reach 90% of ENTERPRISES, > but only 10-15% of SERVERS. > > I don't know if this is true or not, but at least it has no internal > inconsistency. And for a different slant on the same report: Aussie giants like Linux: Gartner http://www.itnews.com.au/storycontent.cfm?ID=10&Art_ID=12570 "[Linux] just sits there in the background, doing its thing. People are starting to deploy it and forget it," [Gartner's Sargeant] said. ... -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue Aug 5 07:57:50 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h74NvRoi005080 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:57:50 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D47D13CCA for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:58:57 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1288313CCA for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:58:56 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 07:58:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:58:55 +0800 http://www.itnews.com.au/storycontent.cfm?ID=10&Art_ID=12570 A Gartner-commissioned annual Asia Pacific survey of big businesses has found that 52 percent of the 121 Australian companies surveyed -- mostly in verticals such as telecommunications, government, education, finance and banking -- use Linux "somewhere in their organisation", up from 39 percent last year. [...] "Australia [individually] was second only to Taiwan," said Phil Sargeant, research director of storage and services at Gartner. "But I would say, as a generalisation, that while companies have deployed it, it hasn't been in mission- critical work." [...] The results were released to spur interest in an Australia- wide series of Gartner seminars in late August and early September on open source market readiness, Gartner said. Call me a skeptic, but I think the final paragraph explains why Gartner should release their first helpful-to-Linux statement in ages (albeit with a few backhanders in it). As at now, the conference has *one* Gartner rep who has ever done anything but constantly nay-say and short-sell Linux, and the sole corporate sponsor is Microsoft. It kind of looks like Dorsogna sponsoring a conference on balanced eating, doesn't it? I'm also wondering if this is a feedback-related response rather than in any way a genuine attempt at balance. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 5 08:04:23 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7503uoi006126 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:04:23 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA15940; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:03:55 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A305357BADD; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:03:54 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030805000354.GD2146@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] This is a good one to send around to your industry contacts Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 08:08:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:03:54 +1000 STUDY: LINUX NEARS WINDOWS XP USABILITY ======================================================================== Posted August 04, 2003 5:20 AM Pacific Time DUSSELDORF, Germany -- Linux, once viewed as an OS only computer geeks could appreciate, is today a much more user-friendly software that companies, public administrations, and consumers can master almost as easily as Microsoft's Windows XP. That's the core finding of a study published on Friday by Relevantive, a Berlin-based company specializing in consulting companies on the usability of software and Web services. The Relevantive usability study, which can be downloaded from the company's Web site (www.relevantive.de), comes as numerous government bodies and companies in Germany's public and private sectors move to migrate their IT systems away from Windows to the Linux operating system, while others are still debating the pros and cons of such a move. For the full story: http://newsletter.infoworld.com/t?ctl=415562:1F2ED19 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue Aug 5 08:46:48 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h750kNoi010673 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:46:47 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8952513CCA for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:47:55 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A25113CCA for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:47:54 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308050847.53715.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Red Hat sues SCO, Novell buys Ximian, Linux's usability == XP's Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 08:47:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:47:53 +0800 Yes, folks, it's all happening here today... (-: http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=253 Red Hat, the North Carolina-based leading GNU/Linux distribution developer, announced today that it has filed a complaint against The SCO Group, Inc. The complaint alleges that SCO has made "unfair, unsubstantiated and untrue public statements." According to Red Hat, the purpose of the legal action is to establish that Red Hat's software does not infringe on SCO's intellectual property. [...] The action also marked the unveiling of what Red Hat has dubbed the "Open Source Now Fund," a legal fund to protect the developers (corporate or non-profit) of GPL-licensed Free Software in future infringement cases. [...] The announcement marked the second major event in an interesting day for the GNU/Linux community. Earlier in the day, SCO rival Novell Corp., announced its plans to extend its GNU/Linux offerings by purchasing Ximian Inc. ...also... http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/04/HNusabilitystudy_1.html Linux, once viewed as an OS only computer geeks could appreciate, is today a much more user-friendly software that companies, public administrations, and consumers can master almost as easily as Microsoft's Windows XP. That's the core finding of a study published on Friday by Relevantive, a Berlin-based company specializing in consulting companies on the usability of software and Web services. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 5 08:56:17 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h750tjoi011750 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:56:17 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA16455; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:55:43 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 56B8C57BADD; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:55:43 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux Message-ID: <20030805005543.GN26076@cyber.com.au> References: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 08:58:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:55:43 +1000 On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 07:58:55AM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > > http://www.itnews.com.au/storycontent.cfm?ID=10&Art_ID=12570 > > A Gartner-commissioned annual Asia Pacific survey of big > businesses has found that 52 percent of the 121 Australian > companies surveyed -- mostly in verticals such as > telecommunications, government, education, finance and > banking -- use Linux "somewhere in their organisation", up > from 39 percent last year. > > [...] > > "Australia [individually] was second only to Taiwan," said > Phil Sargeant, research director of storage and services at > Gartner. "But I would say, as a generalisation, that while > companies have deployed it, it hasn't been in mission- > critical work." > > [...] > > The results were released to spur interest in an Australia- > wide series of Gartner seminars in late August and early > September on open source market readiness, Gartner said. > > Call me a skeptic, but I think the final paragraph explains why Gartner > should release their first helpful-to-Linux statement in ages (albeit > with a few backhanders in it). > > As at now, the conference has *one* Gartner rep who has ever done > anything but constantly nay-say and short-sell Linux, and the sole > corporate sponsor is Microsoft. It kind of looks like Dorsogna > sponsoring a conference on balanced eating, doesn't it? > > I'm also wondering if this is a feedback-related response rather than in > any way a genuine attempt at balance. I wouldn't be too harsh on Gartner. I suspect the reality is that they have a disparate and diverse range of researchers and skills. My discussions with a number of them seem to indicate this: some are quite clued-in, whereas others are shockingly bereft of market intelligence, which is amazing when you consider that that's their job. I find it ironic that we, as amateurs, often need to correct invalid assumptions that they base their analyses on. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU Tue Aug 5 11:33:54 2003 Received: from THE-TECH.MIT.EDU (THE-TECH.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h753XPoi028549 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:33:53 +0800 Received: (from indy@localhost) by THE-TECH.MIT.EDU (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h753W1Z27917 for linux-aus@linux.org.au; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:32:01 -0400 From: indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: [indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux] Message-ID: <20030804233201.E26356@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 11:34:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:32:01 -0400 Hit the wrong reply button... here it is for list consumption... On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:55:43AM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > I wouldn't be too harsh on Gartner. I suspect the reality is that they > have a disparate and diverse range of researchers and skills. My > discussions with a number of them seem to indicate this: some are quite > clued-in, whereas others are shockingly bereft of market intelligence, > which is amazing when you consider that that's their job. I find it ironic > that we, as amateurs, often need to correct invalid assumptions that they > base their analyses on. No offence Con (maybe you have friends at Gartner) but this is exactly the reason to be harsh on Gartner and companies like them. Gartner and various consulting groups (McKinsey spring to mind) make *tons* of money publishing their analyses and they perform just as unevenly in every sector I've ever been involved in (Aerospace, Media Communications, various forms of IT) as they do in their assessments of Linux. They've established a brand name which many large organisations and governments see as dispensing reliable advice. Sadly, all too often anyone working in the field they are commenting on can see that their "market intelligence" is lacking. Frankly it's like a cancer on decision making across the world. This comparison might be tenuous, but I think it might be helpful: "Only professional companies like Gartner have the resources and expertise to produce quality business intelligence that leads to profits for you!" "Only professional companies like Microsoft have the resources and expertise to produce quality business software that leads to profits for you!" To end this rant I'd emphasize a different point: When critising any established organization (like Gartner or Microsoft) it's necessary to do so in a calm and reasoned manner. The facts will help us make a good case, whilst statements like "Frankly it's like a cancer on decision making across the world." probably will just turn people off. ;) Indy. -- Indranath Neogy ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Indranath Neogy From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 5 13:37:11 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h755aToi009505 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:37:11 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id PAA18383; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36:28 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4888057BADD; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36:28 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030805053628.GD26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] This one's big... Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 13:38:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36:28 +1000 This essentially means that the last major barrier has been removed for Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in the US, Candada, UK, Australia and NZ, which following a similar security certification protocol suite... IBM clinches security certification for Linux http://www.forbes.com/technology/newswire/2003/08/05/rtr1048446.html SEATTLE, Aug 5 (Reuters) - International Business Machines Corp. (nyse: IBM - news - people) and Linux distributor SuSE said on Tuesday that they received the highest level of security evaluation used by governments when deciding to use software in their organisations. ... -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 5 17:40:16 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h759dloi003281 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:40:15 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id TAA19677; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:39:41 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7560557BADD; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:39:41 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux] Message-ID: <20030805093941.GC22712@cyber.com.au> References: <20030804233201.E26356@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030804233201.E26356@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 17:41:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:39:41 +1000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 11:32:01PM -0400, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote: > Hit the wrong reply button... > > here it is for list consumption... > > > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:55:43AM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > > I wouldn't be too harsh on Gartner. I suspect the reality is that they > > have a disparate and diverse range of researchers and skills. My > > discussions with a number of them seem to indicate this: some are quite > > clued-in, whereas others are shockingly bereft of market intelligence, > > which is amazing when you consider that that's their job. I find it ironic > > that we, as amateurs, often need to correct invalid assumptions that they > > base their analyses on. > > > No offence Con (maybe you have friends at Gartner) but this is exactly > the reason to be harsh on Gartner and companies like them. I agree with your assessment. However, I've found the best way to work with all such people is to walk along with them on the slow, gradual road to enlightenment. This starts by not painting all the Gartner researchers with the same brush. > > To end this rant I'd emphasize a different point: > > When critising any established organization (like Gartner or Microsoft) > it's necessary to do so in a calm and reasoned manner. The facts will help > us make a good case, whilst statements like "Frankly it's like a cancer on > decision making across the world." probably will just turn people off. ;) concurr. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From bhards@bigpond.net.au Tue Aug 5 19:34:38 2003 Received: from mta06bw.bigpond.com (mta06bw.bigpond.com [144.135.24.156]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h75BYCoi015518 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:34:38 +0800 Received: from rachel ([144.135.24.84]) by mta06bw.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HJ500G2Y9D3PD@mta06bw.email.bigpond.com> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:31:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from cpe-203-51-26-9.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.26.9]) by bwmam06bpa.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.2g 53/11310859); Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:31:51 +0000 From: Brad Hards Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... In-reply-to: <20030805053628.GD26076@cyber.com.au> To: Con Zymaris , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-id: <200308052130.18624.bhards@bigpond.net.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.9 References: <20030805053628.GD26076@cyber.com.au> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 19:35:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:30:17 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36 pm, Con Zymaris wrote: > This essentially means that the last major barrier has been removed for > Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in the US, Candada, UK, > Australia and NZ, which following a similar security certification > protocol suite... Maybe useful for marketing, but essentially meaningless. Hell, Microsoft got some of their code certified. We don't know what assurance level was applied, nor do we know what functionality was assessed. Maybe a real press release would tell us, but IBMs website isn't too good today... For a really cynical view, try: http://eros.cs.jhu.edu/~shap/NT-EAL4.html Common Criteria certification requirements and open source aren't a good mix. If you change the configuration, you have to get it recertified. What's the point of being able to fix it if you can't use it afterwards because your certification is blown? Sure, you have the code and can see what's wrong, but it isn't helping you... Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/L5VKW6pHgIdAuOMRAoBEAJoDRVqDOwDfoZ0V17QfCU/zHBay1wCfSYqp XmJlh61Qp95xa1s0TXcCOhc= =fK54 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lesbell@lesbell.com.au Tue Aug 5 20:19:19 2003 Received: from bifrost.lesbell.com.au (ffps.lesbell.com.au [203.35.202.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h75CIpoi020640 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:19:19 +0800 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... To: Con Zymaris Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Les Bell" X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Bifrost/Les Bell and Associates Pty Ltd(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 05/08/2003 10:19:19 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 20:20:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:18:41 +1000 Con Zymaris wrote: >> This essentially means that the last major barrier has been removed for Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in the US, Candada, UK, Australia and NZ, which following a similar security certification protocol suite... << This is one of those things that looks good on the wall but I'm not sure it means all that much in practice, Con. Interpreting Common Criteria certifications is nothing like as simple as the old Orange Book (TCSEC) C1, C2, B1, etc. The Target Of Evaluation has to be evaluated against a Protection Profile and is then given an Evaluation Assurance Level between EAL1 and EAL7. The article cited doesn't disclose any of those things, but if (just for example) what they've got is EAL2 (structural testing, analysis using functional and interface specification and high-level design, independent testing, etc.) against, say "Protection Profile for Single-Level Operating System in Environments Requiring Medium Robustness", then it doesn't really mean that much (such systems aren't suitable for US DOD use). I'm *certain* it isn't "the highest level of security evaluation used by governments", though. The big hurdle is the "assurance" part, which means that the design itself, design process, testing methodologies, etc. must all be documented so that the evaluators can have confidence (i.e. assurance) that the TOE is what it claims to be. Just saying, "Well, have *you* seen any Linux viruses?" won't do it. And if they have got a higher EAL against, say, a Multi-Level OS Medium Robustness PP, which means the system implements mandatory access controls and can be used for processing data up to Top Secret classification, the market for such systems is fairly small by comparison with the total market. It would be a gold seal of security quality that might appeal to commercial buyers, though (albeit a system configured that way would be a PITA to use and to administer for most people). Still, any publicity is good publicity and a lot of people will be interested to see what the actual certification is. Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au] From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 5 20:23:46 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h75CNBoi021162 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:23:45 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA20279; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:22:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3DA8E57BADD; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:22:59 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Brad Hards Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... Message-ID: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> References: <20030805053628.GD26076@cyber.com.au> <200308052130.18624.bhards@bigpond.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308052130.18624.bhards@bigpond.net.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 20:24:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:22:59 +1000 On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:30:17PM +1000, Brad Hards wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36 pm, Con Zymaris wrote: > > This essentially means that the last major barrier has been removed for > > Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in the US, Candada, UK, > > Australia and NZ, which following a similar security certification > > protocol suite... > > Maybe useful for marketing, but essentially meaningless. Hell, Microsoft got Of course it's only useful in martketing! Most of the corporate world neither know-of nor care about the vagaries of Common Criteria. But they do know that this _sounds_ serious and official. It also makes Linux a lot easier to sell to government policy-makers. This is one more checklist item 'checked'. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From dan@shearer.org Tue Aug 5 20:51:02 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h75CoUoi024215 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:51:02 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19k1GX-0002Ja-00 by authid for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:20:13 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030805125013.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: [Linux-aus] First Annual Linux and OSS in Govt Conference Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 20:52:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:20:13 +0930 Call for Volunteers: First Annual Linux and OSS in Government Miniconf Thanks to a friendly sponsor, there will now be a fairly formal two-day conference before linux.conf.au in January 2004 (in case anyone on this list has been completely disconnected, a superb hackers conference will be held in Adelaide next year, see http://lca2004.linux.org.au!) Organising has just started, but is expected to progress very quickly. Overall parameters: - aimed at Government IT management and practicioners - LCA will be providing support as they do for all the miniconfs, from registration handling to sharing infrastructure items where possible - The venue will be provided by Adelaide University, as part of LCA sponsorship (the anticipated venue can cater for up to 400 people) - AUUG are offering some organisational support, which should make a lot of things happen more easily - AARNet and Adelaide Uni are offering networking and webcasting facilities - It will be possible for people to purchase a ticket for just this conference. Those with a ticket for LCA can come to this (and any other miniconf) for no extra charge Everything else is To Be Decided. Feel free to help with the deciding! The Call For Papers design started today and must be out very soon, because of the lead times these things require. If you want to help go to http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/ocgconf. Note: the name of the conf could change. Thanks, -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From PEGGYQUEENB@aol.com Tue Aug 5 22:18:00 2003 Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h75EHUoi001149 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:17:59 +0800 Received: from PEGGYQUEENB@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 8.11b.26582c94 (17526) for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:17:19 -0400 (EDT) From: PEGGYQUEENB@aol.com Message-ID: <11b.26582c94.2c61166e@aol.com> To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 124 Subject: [Linux-aus] (no subject) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 22:18:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:17:18 EDT I need help getting a ged please help!!! Peggy From nigel@hongkongoffice.com.hk Tue Aug 5 23:25:25 2003 Received: from hongkongoffice.com.hk ([210.3.126.61]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h75FOloi008240 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:25:22 +0800 Message-Id: <200308051525.h75FOloi008240@digital.linux.org.au> From: nigel@hongkongoffice.com.hk To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Linux-aus] Caroline Centre for $11.5 p.s.f. Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 5 23:26:35 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:25:23 Office Listings Updates
 
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From conz@cyber.com.au Wed Aug 6 09:57:51 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h761v9oi011058 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:57:50 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA24023; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:06 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2439F57BADD; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:06 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Brad Hards Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... Message-ID: <20030806015705.GU26076@cyber.com.au> References: <20030805053628.GD26076@cyber.com.au> <200308052130.18624.bhards@bigpond.net.au> <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 09:58:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:06 +1000 On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:22:59PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:30:17PM +1000, Brad Hards wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36 pm, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > This essentially means that the last major barrier has been removed for > > > Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in the US, Candada, UK, > > > Australia and NZ, which following a similar security certification > > > protocol suite... > > > > Maybe useful for marketing, but essentially meaningless. Hell, Microsoft got > > Of course it's only useful in martketing! Further on this marketing concept: (Keep in mind that the following is from a top-end maintrstream newspaper) LINUX OKAYED FOR USE ON 'MISSION CRITICAL' COMPUTERS Linux software has been certified for use on "mission critical" computers, including those used in U.S. government labs, espionage agencies and military supply chain operations. The certification, granted by the Common Criteria group, represents the industry's seal of approval and applies only to Linux from German vendor SuSE, installed on a particular line of IBM servers. Previously, Linux was certified only for "low to moderate" security computers and supporters say the new rating could give it a leg up in its uphill battle with Microsoft Windows. "It opens up new horizons and new venues that we'd been precluded from. Everyone has had this view of Linux as interesting but done by hackers on a part-time basis, a bathtub of a code," says IBM senior VP Nicholas Donofrio. (AP/Los Angeles Times 5 Aug 2003) http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-linux5aug05,1,7834460.story?coll=la-head lines-technology -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From grog@lemis.com Wed Aug 6 10:16:30 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h762Fvoi013152 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:16:29 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 56E5B526A6; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:45:53 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: AUUG Talk List , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hOVSpPeQ9kZbIB2a" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 10:21:52 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:45:53 +0930 --hOVSpPeQ9kZbIB2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Years ago, rms came out with a pretty obvious term, "free software". Despite everything, the name was misinterpreted (beer? actions?). And the suits didn't like it because it smacked too much of counterculture. So the term "open source" was invented, and it's doing quite well for itself. But if you can misinterpret the intentions of "free software", how much more can you misinterpret "open source"? Go out in the street and ask passers-by what each means. Those who have never heard of either will have a reasonable idea what free software is, but they wouldn't even associate "open source" with software until they're told. In addition, how important is the source code to the average user? How many of you have actually changed the source code of the applications you use? I'm not denying the advantages of having the source available, but for most users that's not the point: the real issue is that it's free. Now that open source/free software is becoming more mainstream, isn't it about time to consider a less buzzword-laden term for it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --hOVSpPeQ9kZbIB2a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MGTZIubykFB6QiMRAldLAJ9xGrYzePaih49rYXLPo+FziTOhNwCgsJoS lEzKzBRfkLzQ7Z8Imu4rlLM= =aZmJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hOVSpPeQ9kZbIB2a-- From peter@sandilands.vu Wed Aug 6 10:36:57 2003 Received: from mt (CPE-144-132-178-155.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.178.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h762aRoi015389 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:36:57 +0800 Received: from wxp ([192.168.100.28]) by mt (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h762YcI7010361; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:34:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@sandilands.vu) From: "Peter Sandilands" Organization: Better Development Skills Pty Ltd To: Con Zymaris , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... Message-ID: <3F30F6AB.16735.15CAEC82@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030806015705.GU26076@cyber.com.au> References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 10:37:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:38:03 +1000 On 6 Aug 2003 at 11:57, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:22:59PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:30:17PM +1000, Brad Hards wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36 pm, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > > This essentially means that the last major barrier has been > > > > removed for Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in > > > > the US, Candada, UK, Australia and NZ, which following a similar > > > > security certification protocol suite... > > > Maybe useful for marketing, but essentially meaningless. Hell, > > > Microsoft got > > Of course it's only useful in martketing! Why not make some noise about IPSO 3.5 achieving EAL4 CC certification in July this year? It's basically FreeBSD Pete From peter@sandilands.vu Wed Aug 6 10:36:57 2003 Received: from mt (CPE-144-132-178-155.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.178.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h762aRoi015390 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:36:57 +0800 Received: from wxp ([192.168.100.28]) by mt (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h762YcIB010361; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:34:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@sandilands.vu) From: "Peter Sandilands" Organization: Better Development Skills Pty Ltd To: Con Zymaris , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... Message-ID: <3F30F6AB.1074.15CAEB0F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030806015705.GU26076@cyber.com.au> References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 10:39:07 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:38:03 +1000 On 6 Aug 2003 at 11:57, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:36 pm, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > > This essentially means that the last major barrier has been > > > > removed for Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in > > > Maybe useful for marketing, but essentially meaningless. Hell, > > > Microsoft got > Linux software has been certified for use on "mission critical" > computers, including those used in U.S. government labs, espionage > agencies and military supply chain operations. The certification, > granted by the Common Criteria group, represents the industry's seal I haven't yet seen mention of just what CC level cert was achieved. That will have significant impact on the "value" of this. It also depends on what was included or left out of the security target. Let's not get too excited...................... Pete From dan@shearer.org Wed Aug 6 10:37:38 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h762b7oi015478 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:37:37 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19kEAT-0003OV-00 by authid ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:06:49 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: AUUG Talk List , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030806023649.GE6629@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 10:42:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:06:49 +0930 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:45:53AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Years ago, rms came out with a pretty obvious term, "free software". > Despite everything, the name was misinterpreted (beer? actions?). > And the suits didn't like it because it smacked too much of > counterculture. So the term "open source" was invented, and it's > doing quite well for itself. > > But if you can misinterpret the intentions of "free software", how > much more can you misinterpret "open source"? Go out in the street > and ask passers-by what each means. Those who have never heard of > either will have a reasonable idea what free software is, but they > wouldn't even associate "open source" with software until they're > told. The only really solid term I've seen is "Linux". It seems to be readily recognisable as a "free software thingy" and I've used Linux-style for describing Apache on Solaris and FreeBSD to good effect. As long as people understand the details hardly matter. -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From grog@lemis.com Wed Aug 6 10:55:10 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h762sioi017566 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:55:09 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 44428526B2; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:24:42 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Dan Shearer Cc: AUUG Talk List , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806023649.GE6629@erizo.shearer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DbfMJPzVK3bTmpax" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806023649.GE6629@erizo.shearer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: AUUG: Australian UNIX and Open Systems User Group Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.auug.org.au/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 10:56:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:24:42 +0930 --DbfMJPzVK3bTmpax Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 12:06:49 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:45:53AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Years ago, rms came out with a pretty obvious term, "free software". >> Despite everything, the name was misinterpreted (beer? actions?). >> And the suits didn't like it because it smacked too much of >> counterculture. So the term "open source" was invented, and it's >> doing quite well for itself. >> >> But if you can misinterpret the intentions of "free software", how >> much more can you misinterpret "open source"? Go out in the street >> and ask passers-by what each means. Those who have never heard of >> either will have a reasonable idea what free software is, but they >> wouldn't even associate "open source" with software until they're >> told. > > The only really solid term I've seen is "Linux". It seems to be readily > recognisable as a "free software thingy" and I've used Linux-style for > describing Apache on Solaris and FreeBSD to good effect. As long as > people understand the details hardly matter. If you want to understand the details, yes, the details matter. Sure, you can use "Linux" as a sort of catchall, but there will be groups who don't want to be thought of as "Linux". And it also fails the man-in-the-street test, though possibly not as badly as "open source". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --DbfMJPzVK3bTmpax Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MG3yIubykFB6QiMRAk1UAJ0dj1Na3eQ1jjGf65NxxceQwlXiuwCcDs3B I6BEudNFhjz6BSMMfXIoozY= =oy4W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DbfMJPzVK3bTmpax-- From dan@shearer.org Wed Aug 6 11:10:13 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7639noi019234 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:10:13 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19kEg7-0003U3-00 by authid ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:39:31 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: AUUG Talk List , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030806030931.GH6629@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806023649.GE6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 11:11:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:39:31 +0930 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 12:24:42PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 12:06:49 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:45:53AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Years ago, rms came out with a pretty obvious term, "free software". > >> Despite everything, the name was misinterpreted (beer? actions?). > >> And the suits didn't like it because it smacked too much of > >> counterculture. So the term "open source" was invented, and it's > >> doing quite well for itself. > >> > >> But if you can misinterpret the intentions of "free software", how > >> much more can you misinterpret "open source"? Go out in the street > >> and ask passers-by what each means. Those who have never heard of > >> either will have a reasonable idea what free software is, but they > >> wouldn't even associate "open source" with software until they're > >> told. > > > > The only really solid term I've seen is "Linux". It seems to be readily > > recognisable as a "free software thingy" and I've used Linux-style for > > describing Apache on Solaris and FreeBSD to good effect. As long as > > people understand the details hardly matter. > > If you want to understand the details, yes, the details matter. Sure, > you can use "Linux" as a sort of catchall, but there will be groups > who don't want to be thought of as "Linux". And it also fails the > man-in-the-street test, though possibly not as badly as "open source". That's my point: I haven't found anything that does a better job at the man-in-the-street test than "Linux". Believe me, I've tried just about everything I can think of. Blame the media, lack of education or moonspots, as far as I can see it is the truth. In Europe and Spanish-speaking parts of the US (which covers a lot of the US!) the word "libre" works, but it doesn't conjure up a fully functional software world in the way that the mass media has done with the word "Linux". Ah yes, there is one exception: a negative approach is often well understood during man-in-the-street conversations. If someone looks blank when you say "Unix", or "BSD", or "Linux" or "Open Source Software" or "Software Libre" then you can simply say "Have you heard of Microsoft Windows? Well, its a complete replacement for all that" and usually get a good response. But negative marketing is not a good default position. One other point: most BSD people are really pleased when I introduce them to someone who is interested in trying out BSD, even if I've got them along by saying "I know someone whose really good at this Linux thing, and if you're looking for a replacement for your Windows NT server you should just have a talk to him". It's a bit silly for BSDs not wanting to be incorrectly called Linux given that they have gigabytes of software in common. If someone has a good experience with BSD they soon get the naming right. What's wrong with a little forbearance with the ideology in favour of helping people get what they want done? -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Wed Aug 6 11:13:58 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h763DPoi019680 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:13:58 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:02:57 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Con Zymaris Cc: Leon Brooks , Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux Message-Id: <20030805110302.73017c3a.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030805005543.GN26076@cyber.com.au> References: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030805005543.GN26076@cyber.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 11:14:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:03:02 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Con, > I wouldn't be too harsh on Gartner. I suspect the reality is that they > have a disparate and diverse range of researchers and skills. And one could say that about any industry group, company or such. > My discussions with a number of them seem to indicate this: some are > quite clued-in, whereas others are shockingly bereft of market > intelligence, which is amazing when you consider that that's their job. Not really. If everyone was equally good at their job there wouldn't be a job market. Employers, and you're one of them so you'd surely know, don't always select the best people for the job even if it's their intention to do so. It's part of being human. No judgment here; just an observation of what is ;-) > I find it ironic that we, as amateurs, often need to correct invalid > assumptions that they base their analyses on. We're not amateurs in the fields in which we correct them, or are we? DSL - -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/LwlONBhAwwyvg/kRApe/AJ48BgJB3a8Jey13fHhW8z3/NiIxVQCfbCGE 977aFJ8BlLjJHrF6xDYJXeY= =iCdU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub@perkypants.org Wed Aug 6 11:13:05 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-05.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.37]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h763CXoi019573 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:13:04 +0800 Received: (qmail 14139 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 02:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 02:51:27 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C09B3C89 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:51:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AB8A210B94F; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:51:04 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030806025104.GJ1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Reply-By: Sat Aug 9 12:50:17 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 12:50:17 up 10 days, 13:47, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 11:16:09 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:51:04 +1000 > Now that open source/free software is becoming more mainstream, isn't it > about time to consider a less buzzword-laden term for it? Me: Do you know what Open Source is? MOTS: Is that Linux? (Man On The Street) Worksforme. ;-) - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBM http://sco.iwethey.org/ What does an underage calf drink? Long Island Iced Teats. From bje+dated+1060573437.1e6bcc@air.net.au Wed Aug 6 11:44:32 2003 Received: from mailhub.air.net.au (mailhub.air.net.au [203.52.201.202]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h763i6oi023124 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:44:31 +0800 Received: from mailhub.air.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.air.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D39236D90 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:43:57 +1000 (EST) To: Peter Sandilands Cc: Con Zymaris , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Talk] Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... Message-ID: <20030806134353.A30425@mailhub.air.net.au> References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> <20030806015705.GU26076@cyber.com.au> <3F30F6AB.1074.15CAEB0F@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3F30F6AB.1074.15CAEB0F@localhost>; from peter@sandilands.vu on Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 12:38:03PM +1000 From: Ben Elliston X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.68 (Shut Out) X-Primary-Address: bje@air.net.au Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 11:45:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:43:53 +1000 --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline > > Linux software has been certified for use on "mission critical" > > computers, including those used in U.S. government labs, espionage > > agencies and military supply chain operations. The certification, > > granted by the Common Criteria group, represents the industry's seal > I haven't yet seen mention of just what CC level cert was achieved. > That will have significant impact on the "value" of this. I keep seeing "the highest level", but I don't believe it. Ben --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/MHl5bNtDbHIEhSURAv+RAKDDHMHYxFULruvuprEbV2B2oICPqwCglQU2 IFK/3tTshCK/9lDqNQ37aSs= =cfhp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB-- From bowden@iinet.net.au Wed Aug 6 11:52:33 2003 Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h763q3oi024060 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:52:33 +0800 Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402146047A; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:51:59 +0800 (WST) Received: from hermes.rmsurveys.com.au (adsl-202-72-181-60.cls.westnet.com.au [202.72.181.60]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B355FD9C; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:51:57 +0800 (WST) Received: from iinet.net.au (pan.rmsurveys.com.au [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by hermes.rmsurveys.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h763pFGt028108; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:51:15 +0800 Message-ID: <3F307B71.7030700@iinet.net.au> From: Tim Bowden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Dan Shearer , AUUG Talk List , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806023649.GE6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 11:53:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:52:17 +0800 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 12:06:49 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > >>On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:45:53AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> >>>Years ago, rms came out with a pretty obvious term, "free software". >>>Despite everything, the name was misinterpreted (beer? actions?). >>>And the suits didn't like it because it smacked too much of >>>counterculture. So the term "open source" was invented, and it's >>>doing quite well for itself. >>> >>>But if you can misinterpret the intentions of "free software", how >>>much more can you misinterpret "open source"? Go out in the street >>>and ask passers-by what each means. Those who have never heard of >>>either will have a reasonable idea what free software is, but they >>>wouldn't even associate "open source" with software until they're >>>told. To most people free software is IE (but you can download it for nothing!) and WinZip. Back to the old problem of what free means... >> >>The only really solid term I've seen is "Linux". It seems to be readily >>recognisable as a "free software thingy" and I've used Linux-style for >>describing Apache on Solaris and FreeBSD to good effect. As long as >>people understand the details hardly matter. > Same as my experience. At least they may have seen 'Linux' mentioned on the cover of a mag or in the business/ tech print media. Most (non developer) people who use only 'black box' software don't even realise there is source code. Once that hurdle is overcome (sort of) then try explaining what it means to have 'open source' rather than closed source. Then watch their eyes glaze over. There are usually too many mental barriers to jump in one go... But why give away the source when you can sell it? Doesn't that make it insecure? You only get what you pay for... Does it come from MS? So how does it get paid for? Who owns it? and so on. > > If you want to understand the details, yes, the details matter. Sure, > you can use "Linux" as a sort of catchall, but there will be groups > who don't want to be thought of as "Linux". And it also fails the > man-in-the-street test, though possibly not as badly as "open source". > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers The man-in-the-street's mindset is too deeply entrenched in a closed 'black box' software culture to get the idea of open source/ free software without prolonged exposure to the ideas and software. Even then, you have to overcome the care factor. At some point the consumer stops caring about the details and trusts the vendor to do the right thing. Most consumers will only 'get it' and understand a catch word when they are using foss by default, not choice. Tim Bowden From jdub@perkypants.org Wed Aug 6 12:36:42 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-06.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.38]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h764aKoi029102 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:36:42 +0800 Received: (qmail 6239 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 03:02:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 03:02:27 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA87C3C89 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:02:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C4ACA10B94F; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:02:04 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030806030204.GL1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806023649.GE6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806025442.GV95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Reply-By: Sat Aug 9 13:01:18 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 13:01:18 up 10 days, 13:58, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 12:37:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:02:04 +1000 > If you want to understand the details, yes, the details matter. Sure, > you can use "Linux" as a sort of catchall, but there will be groups > who don't want to be thought of as "Linux". And it also fails the > man-in-the-street test, though possibly not as badly as "open source". Hrm, I don't think that's true at all these days. Lots of people know what Linux is, even if they can't define it in a way that would please a technical ear. - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBM http://sco.iwethey.org/ "Microsoft treats security vulnerabilities as public relations problems." - Bruce Schneier From anarchisttomato@yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 6 13:14:45 2003 Received: from web20306.mail.yahoo.com (web20306.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.87]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h765EIoi000721 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:14:44 +0800 Message-ID: <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.29.96.93] by web20306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:14:15 EST From: =?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?= Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 13:15:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:14:15 +1000 (EST) Layman's terms, what about 'Open Software'? Only a slight change, but it might desribe it better. I was just readinga pocketbook I picked up on special for a buck which was talking about security through... obscurity (or whatever word they used) and security through transparency (Linux). A title describing a publicly scrutinisable system might convey it better. 'Open Software' is all I can think of though. http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! 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From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed Aug 6 13:30:36 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h765U9oi002439 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:36 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EC913CCA; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:36 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FEA013CCA; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:35 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> <3F30F6AB.1074.15CAEB0F@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F30F6AB.1074.15CAEB0F@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308061330.34625.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: big one (not spam) - actual rating Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 13:31:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:34 +0800 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:38, Peter Sandilands wrote: > I haven't yet seen mention of just what CC level cert was achieved. Level 2, working on level 3 for *all* of IBM's servers and (IIRC level 4 for some of them). Some specific MS-Windows configurations are already at level 3 (presumably with everything disabled, the Administrator account removed, and no network cable or removable devices attached). The big issue is that now it *has* a rating, the rating isn't "don't touch this with a barge pole" and that's enough to get it places it couldn't go before. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed Aug 6 13:31:45 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h765VIoi002569 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:31:44 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685AD13CCA; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:31:47 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBEA13CCA; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:31:45 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> <3F30F6AB.16735.15CAEC82@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F30F6AB.16735.15CAEC82@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308061331.45573.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: IPSO's EAL4 cert Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 13:34:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:31:45 +0800 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:38, Peter Sandilands wrote: > Why not make some noise about IPSO 3.5 achieving EAL4 CC > certification in July this year? > It's basically FreeBSD Good idea! Talk to Sam Varghese about it? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed Aug 6 13:33:09 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h765Wboi002715 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:33:09 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A85613CCA for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:33:06 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D92313CCA for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:33:05 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030805005543.GN26076@cyber.com.au> <20030805110302.73017c3a.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030805110302.73017c3a.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308061333.04710.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 13:35:57 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:33:04 +0800 On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:33, David Lloyd wrote: > We're not amateurs in the fields in which we correct them, or are we? I am. (-: I'm a QBX, are you? :-) Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From dan@shearer.org Wed Aug 6 14:40:15 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h766dZoi010069 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:40:15 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19kHx7-0003ph-00 by authid ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:09:17 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: John Knight Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 14:41:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:09:17 +0930 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:14:15PM +1000, John Knight wrote: > Layman's terms, what about 'Open Software'? Only a > slight change, but it might desribe it better. In corporate and government, the word "Open" is not very helpful. Most software producers describe their products as open, and that includes Microsoft. Have a look at the advertising for their server-side suites. To the corporate-it-officer-in-the-street, anything with "Open" in it is verging on the banal until they begin to get some grasp of what is involved. Until a person reaches that point, what better word do we currently have than "Linux" or "Linux-style" to describe Open Source, from OpenBSD through to Cygwin? Greg, you started this thread -- can you improve on this? I wonder if it is a solution that works because it seems to irritate all technical people about equally: the FSF dislikes it, BSD people dislike it, Microsoft dislikes it, fans of Solaris and other Unix variants dislike it, and even SCO dislike being called Linux. But non-technical and mildly technical people have no problem understanding it, and the media loves it. Who seriously thinks they have a chance of altering this worldwide perception? -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From conz@cyber.com.au Wed Aug 6 16:24:00 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h768NRoi021551 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:24:00 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id SAA26657; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:23:24 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 474F457BADD; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:23:24 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David Lloyd Cc: Leon Brooks , Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux Message-ID: <20030806082324.GB3860@cyber.com.au> References: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030805005543.GN26076@cyber.com.au> <20030805110302.73017c3a.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030805110302.73017c3a.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 16:24:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:23:24 +1000 On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:03:02AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Con, > > > I wouldn't be too harsh on Gartner. I suspect the reality is that they > > have a disparate and diverse range of researchers and skills. > > And one could say that about any industry group, company or such. perhaps, but most other industry groups or companies have the immense leverage that Gartner have. That puts special onus on Gartner to be more accurate, more enlightened of the trends. > > > I find it ironic that we, as amateurs, often need to correct invalid > > assumptions that they base their analyses on. > > We're not amateurs in the fields in which we correct them, or are we? no. But we are amateurs as analysts of the IT industry. It's their day job, and they often get it wrong. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz@cyber.com.au Wed Aug 6 19:09:56 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h76B9Loi006585 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:09:51 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA27349; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:09:09 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E560557BADD; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:09:08 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David Lloyd Cc: Leon Brooks , Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Catch me while I faint, Gartner almost said something positive about Linux Message-ID: <20030806110908.GC6123@cyber.com.au> References: <200308050758.55694.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030805005543.GN26076@cyber.com.au> <20030805110302.73017c3a.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <20030806082324.GB3860@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806082324.GB3860@cyber.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 19:10:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:09:08 +1000 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 06:23:24PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:03:02AM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > Con, > > > > > I wouldn't be too harsh on Gartner. I suspect the reality is that they > > > have a disparate and diverse range of researchers and skills. > > > > And one could say that about any industry group, company or such. > sorry, slip up. > perhaps, but most other industry groups or companies have the immense most other industry groups or companies *don't* have the immense... > leverage that Gartner have. That puts special onus on Gartner to be more > accurate, more enlightened of the trends. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From j-conversations@decisions-and-designs.com.au Wed Aug 6 20:27:14 2003 Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h76CQeoi015133 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:27:14 +0800 Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC30F60550 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:26:37 +0800 (WST) Received: from chicory.decisions-and-designs.com.au (adsl-202-72-160-9.prem.westnet.com.au [202.72.160.9]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F70C6055B for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:26:36 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030806200908.00b082c0@decisions-and-designs.com.au> X-Sender: j-conversations@decisions-and-designs.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au From: Jacqueline McNally Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? In-Reply-To: <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 20:28:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:29:15 +0800 At 02:39 PM 08/06/2003, Dan Shearer wrote: >Until a person reaches that point, what better word do we currently have >than "Linux" or "Linux-style" to describe Open Source, from OpenBSD >through to Cygwin? Greg, you started this thread -- can you improve on >this? > >I wonder if it is a solution that works because it seems to irritate all >technical people about equally: the FSF dislikes it, BSD people dislike >it, Microsoft dislikes it, fans of Solaris and other Unix variants >dislike it, and even SCO dislike being called Linux. But non-technical >and mildly technical people have no problem understanding it, and the >media loves it. > >Who seriously thinks they have a chance of altering this worldwide >perception? I don't think it is worldwide, simply because there are a great number of people that do not yet have the opportunity to contribute. When I have the opportunity to chew someone's ear about open-source or free software it is often along the lines of collaboration and a shared resource. People who are "not" involved in developing or implementing ICT solutions just want the computer to do as they expect, whether this is in business or for home use. Business owners or mangers just want results, and home users expect to pick it up as they do a pen. With home users I can usually win them around talking about the community aspects of open-source/free, whereas managers it is a shared resource along the lines of natural capitalism, see ABC's interview with Amory Lovins, Rocky Mountain Institute http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s231834.htm All the best Jacqueline McNally www.decisions-and-designs.com.au/jacqueline Community Contact, Australia/New Zealand OpenOffice.org Marketing Project (www.openoffice.org) Are you a computer angel? (www.computerangels.org.au) From Howard_Dahdah@idg.com.au Wed Aug 6 22:58:30 2003 Received: from postbox.idg.com.au (postbox.idg.com.au [203.34.46.5]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h76Evroi030903 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:58:30 +0800 From: Howard_Dahdah@idg.com.au To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on WebWorld1/IDGWebAU(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 08/07/2003 01:20:44 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Linux-aus] Howard Dahdah/Australia/IDG is on Holidays Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 22:59:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:01:01 +1000 I will be out of the office starting 06/08/2003 and will not return until 12/08/2003. I will respond to your message when I return in the week begining September 9. Thanks, Howard From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed Aug 6 23:38:03 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h76FbZoi002648 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:38:02 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A69E13CCA for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:38:21 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56EF13CCA for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:38:18 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308062338.18533.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux reaches (near) Afghanistan again Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 6 23:39:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:38:18 +0800 Apparently, they now have a LUG there as well, but I can't find it for looking. Here is the original article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3067871.stm Afghanistan is being rebuilt with the help of the Linux operating system. The United Nations is training civil servants in the intricacies of the software to help them get government computer systems up and running. The first civil servants to complete their training in Linux went back to work earlier this month. The UN hopes that training government workers to use Linux will help the country close the technology gap that separates it from many other countries. Here's an original UNDP doc on the topic: http://www.undp.org.af/archive/2003/7-july03-linux-training.htm Gaurab Raj Upadhaya UNDP Trainer for Linux states "The benefits of this training and understanding the software are many. Practically, we can see them being able to offer newer services in their work places and also able to implement advanced network services. UNDP ICT programme has targeted technical and semi technical staff at the Ministry of Communications and other ministries. As technical staff have the responsibility to manage and maintain networks and provide services in their domain. They need the skill to get over their dependency on external contractors and consultants. "This training is very important for the future of Afghanistan and its role in the International arena for development. We have been without resources for many years and we don't have efficient IT operating systems in Afghanistan. This training and hopefully more advanced training will enable us to utilize computers and become more sufficient, effective and reliable. Also this will transfer to other departments like medicine, schools and through the country." said Mr. Peer Mohamad Bariyali a student from the Communication Ministry. The Linux training has been funded by the as a 100% UNDP implemented programme in conjunction with Ministry of Communications of up-skilling Ministry of Communication staff as part of a range of Capacity Building Projects to aid learning as a tool to help with the Reconstruction of Afghanistan. This all lends a particular irony to this earlier article: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,27787,00.asp And now Tajikistan gets a shipment: http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/6301047.htm The former Soviet Union Republic was ravaged by a six-year civil war after breaking away from Russia more than a decade ago. Now, half the population of 6.5 million in the mountainous, landlocked, northern neighbor of Afghanistan is under 20 years old, and many children have no parents. [...] Marupov also told Kovacs that Tajiks traditionally have had to learn a foreign language to use a computer. If that barrier could be overcome, Tajiks could use computers and Internet technology to get around problems with poor phone reliability and the high cost of long-distance calls. Kovacs founded a nonprofit group, Khujand Computer Technologies, to work on the problem. Marupov recruited some university students interested in honing their English, and they soon began translating the dialogue boxes, menus, and the rest of the user interface of the Mandrake version of Linux into Tajik. Not much in a country 1/3 the population of Australia, but it's a start. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From grog@lemis.com Thu Aug 7 10:05:15 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7724Voi003701 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:05:13 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 66E4F526B5; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:34:10 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Dan Shearer Cc: John Knight , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3D7yMlnunRPwJqC7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 10:06:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:34:10 +0930 --3D7yMlnunRPwJqC7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 16:09:17 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:14:15PM +1000, John Knight wrote: >> Layman's terms, what about 'Open Software'? Only a >> slight change, but it might desribe it better. > > Until a person reaches that point, what better word do we currently > have than "Linux" or "Linux-style" to describe Open Source, from > OpenBSD through to Cygwin? Greg, you started this thread -- can you > improve on this? Well, my argument was for a descriptive term. "Free software" fits that bill. "Linux" (or "BSD", for that matter, before you accuse me of being partisan :-) don't. > I wonder if it is a solution that works because it seems to irritate > all technical people about equally: the FSF dislikes it, BSD people > dislike it, Microsoft dislikes it, fans of Solaris and other Unix > variants dislike it, and even SCO dislike being called Linux. But > non-technical and mildly technical people have no problem > understanding it, and the media loves it. That's obviously not a solution of choice. > Who seriously thinks they have a chance of altering this worldwide > perception? Alone we can't, of course. But the term "free software" used to be mainstream, and somebody changed that perception. My personal feeling, which has led to success on occasion, is to find a good term and use it. If others join in, fine. If they don't, I'm not too worried either. That's why I don't use terms like "baud rate" or "hard drive". Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --3D7yMlnunRPwJqC7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MbOaIubykFB6QiMRAn1wAJ0ao+dWbJ2jIHmUuteCJQtjafawsACgsMZ3 vlh/d0FoIE+64zFPS5BMb0Q= =ZyUc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3D7yMlnunRPwJqC7-- From carolinegordon@stargames.com.au Thu Aug 7 10:07:46 2003 Received: from pearl.stargames.com.au ([210.8.93.34]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7727Koi004010 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:07:46 +0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost.stargames.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by dummy.domain.name (Postfix) with SMTP id AF64FA3 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:48:37 +1000 (EST) Received: by pearl.stargames.com.au (Postfix, from userid 111) id A8C20A2; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:48:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from CAROLINE (unknown [192.168.2.76])by pearl.stargames.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4358Afor ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:48:37 +1000 (EST) From: "Caroline Gordon" To: Message-ID: <003101c35c6b$924705d0$4c02a8c0@stargames.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-Copyrighted-Material: Subject: [Linux-aus] Company policy on the use of Open Source Software in product development Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 10:10:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:39:18 +1000 Hello all, I'm new to this mailing list and to the world of Open Source software. I am currently writing a policy document for the company to inform everyone of our obligations and rights in regard to Open Source software (which we are increasingly using in our products in different ways). I was just wondering if anyone has seen anything publically available (or is willing to make something available)? Obviously anyone can read the GPL and find out all the details but not many people are going to bother to do that. I was thinking of a document to more or less summarise the GPL and to lay out the specifics of how we will make source available, statements to be made in manuals etc. Obviously some details like that will differ in the details but generally the same rules apply. BTW - I'm concerned mainly with issues in product development, where open source is used in products that are sold by the company, Thanks Caroline Gordon ********** Disclaimer ********** The information in this email and in any attachments is intended only for the individual or entity named above. It is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your system and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. There is no warranty that this email is error or virus free. If this is a private communication it does not represent the views of Stargames Corporation Pty Ltd. This email may not be copied or distributed without this disclaimer. ********** From conz@cyber.com.au Thu Aug 7 10:46:15 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h772jloi008268 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:46:15 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA02202; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:45:46 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9590457BADD; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:45:46 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Caroline Gordon Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Company policy on the use of Open Source Software in product development Message-ID: <20030807024546.GZ26076@cyber.com.au> References: <003101c35c6b$924705d0$4c02a8c0@stargames.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003101c35c6b$924705d0$4c02a8c0@stargames.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 10:47:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:45:46 +1000 On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 08:39:18AM +1000, Caroline Gordon wrote: > Hello all, > I'm new to this mailing list and to the world of Open Source software. > I am currently writing a policy document for the company to inform > everyone of our obligations and rights in regard to Open Source software > (which we are increasingly using in our products in different ways). > I was just wondering if anyone has seen anything publically available > (or is willing to make something available)? > > Obviously anyone can read the GPL and find out all the details but not > many people are going to bother to do that. I was thinking of a document > to more or less summarise the GPL and to lay out the specifics of how we > will make source available, statements to be made in manuals etc. > Obviously some details like that will differ in the details but > generally the same rules apply. > > BTW - I'm concerned mainly with issues in product development, where > open source is used in products that are sold by the company, > > Thanks > > Caroline Gordon Caroline, you will find that the GPL, although not as concise and simple as the BSD licence, is fairly easy to follow. I can't really point you to any simplifications or exegesis of the GPL which aren't bigger than the GPL itself, but in case it's of use, try: http://www.cybersource.com.au/cyber/about/comparing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From thaytan@mad.scientist.com Thu Aug 7 11:16:48 2003 Received: from mailhub.datafast.net.au (mailhub.datafast.net.au [203.123.67.14]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h773GIoi011579 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:16:48 +0800 Received: (qmail 24944 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 03:16:17 -0000 Received: from adsl-2-022.nsw.dft.com.au (HELO cerberus.home.net) (202.76.176.22) by mailhub.datafast.net.au with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 03:16:17 -0000 Received: from oven (unknown [192.168.0.12]) by cerberus.home.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF43E142A5; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:16:13 +1000 (EST) Received: by oven (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CC7A623081; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:16:13 +1000 (EST) From: Jan Schmidt To: Con Zymaris Cc: Caroline Gordon , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Company policy on the use of Open Source Software in product development Message-ID: <20030807031613.GE2609@oven.home.net> Mail-Followup-To: Con Zymaris , Caroline Gordon , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <003101c35c6b$924705d0$4c02a8c0@stargames.com.au> <20030807024546.GZ26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030807024546.GZ26076@cyber.com.au> X-Operating-System: Debian Linux http://www.debian.org X-Uptime: 13:15:09 up 10 days, 18:06, 3 users, load average: 0.42, 0.20, 0.08 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 11:17:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:16:13 +1000 > Caroline, > > you will find that the GPL, although not as concise and simple as the BSD > licence, is fairly easy to follow. I can't really point you to any > simplifications or exegesis of the GPL which aren't bigger than the GPL > itself, but in case it's of use, try: > > http://www.cybersource.com.au/cyber/about/comparing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf > I've found the GNU GPL FAQ useful also for explaining the intentions of various clauses. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html Cheers, Jan. -- Jan Schmidt thaytan@mad.scientist.com Homer: "No TV and No Beer make Homer something something" Marge: "Go Crazy?" Homer: "Don't mind if I do! aaaarrrarrgghar!" From jdub@perkypants.org Thu Aug 7 11:27:11 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-05.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.37]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h773Qdoi012761 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:27:11 +0800 Received: (qmail 28306 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 03:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 03:06:46 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94953C89; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:06:19 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 63CEB10B94F; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:06:19 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Caroline Gordon Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Company policy on the use of Open Source Software in product development Message-ID: <20030807030618.GY1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Caroline Gordon , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <003101c35c6b$924705d0$4c02a8c0@stargames.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003101c35c6b$924705d0$4c02a8c0@stargames.com.au> Reply-By: Sun Aug 10 12:57:39 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 12:57:39 up 11 days, 13:55, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 11:28:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:06:19 +1000 > Obviously anyone can read the GPL and find out all the details but not > many people are going to bother to do that. I was thinking of a document > to more or less summarise the GPL and to lay out the specifics of how we > will make source available, statements to be made in manuals etc. > Obviously some details like that will differ in the details but generally > the same rules apply. Hi Caroline, There are a few easier-to-digest documents available on the FSF website, in particular the GPL FAQ and howto, which directly relate to your questions. Here are some links which may help: http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html Thanks, - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "When you're running, you want to run as far as you can, and you can't run further than Australia." - Jacek Koman From conz@cyber.com.au Thu Aug 7 12:09:23 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7748soi017647 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:09:23 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA02851; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:08:52 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4E20857BADD; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:08:52 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030807040852.GJ26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] The tipping point Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 12:10:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:08:52 +1000 FYI... THE LINUX TIPPING POINT, A STUDY BY FORRESTER According to a March 2003 report by Forrester Research, Inc., Linux brings seductive Intel economics into the Unix heart of the datacenter. To avoid the chaos of unbridled Linux growth, CIOs must lead a shift to managed Linux deployment. The payoff? A fast track to Organic IT. This report is an analysis of interviews with 50 IT executives using Linux. get the Forrester report: http://redhat.chtah.com/a/tA-MZQqAJPSNNANzLmvAGyNQBYp/utba2 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From stewart@linux.org.au Thu Aug 7 13:20:41 2003 Received: from fallbackmx01.syd.optusnet.com.au (fallbackmx01.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.112]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h775K1oi025218 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:20:40 +0800 Received: from mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.139]) by fallbackmx01.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.6p2/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h770KbX01101 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:20:37 +1000 Received: from saturn (c210-49-254-166.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) by mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h770JaI17578 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:19:36 +1000 Received: from [192.168.0.3] (helo=[192.168.0.3] ident=stewart) by saturn with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19kYVE-0005DL-00 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:19:36 +1000 From: Stewart Smith To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1060215530.30596.100.camel@willster> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Linux-aus] [Fwd: APSL 2.0 is a Free Software License] Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 13:21:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 07 Aug 2003 10:18:51 +1000 You may have already read it on slashdot, but here it is. This does sound pretty promising, and follows on from (infomal) conversations I've had with a variety of Apple people indicating that the company does want to be more Open Source (but there's just X many hours in a day to get everything polished to release). I heard that there's also this "little issue of Pather".... :) -----Forwarded Message----- > From: Ernest Prabhakar > To: publicsource-announce@lists.apple.com > Subject: APSL 2.0 is a Free Software License > Date: 06 Aug 2003 09:27:25 -0700 > > Hello everyone, > > The Darwin team at Apple is pleased to announce that version 2.0 of the > Apple Public Source License, which includes numerous changes to make it > even easier for Open Source developers to use and comply with, has been > certified as conforming to the definition of a "Free Software License" > [1]. To access source code under the terms of APSL 2.0, you can now use > your new or existing "Apple ID", rather than needing a separate Darwin > account [2]. > > Additional information about APSL 2.0 and changes to source code access > are below, with full details available at > . > > If you have any questions, please contact us at > admin@opensource.apple.com. > > Sincerely, > The Darwin Team at Apple > > [1] Apple Public Source License 2.0 now a "Free Software License" > > Apple is pleased to announce the 2.0 version of the Apple Public Source > License. It improves upon the OSI-approved APSL 1.2 by conforming to > the definition of Free Software Licenses > , as certified by the Free > Software Foundation: > > Excerpted from the FSF web site: > "The Apple Public Source License (APSL) version 2.0 qualifies as a Free > Software License. In version 2.0 of the APSL, the definition of > "Externally Deployed" has been narrowed in a way that is appropriate > for the respect of users' freedoms. The APSL 2.0, like the Affero GPL, > seeks to defend the freedom of those who use software in these novel > ways, without unduly hindering the users' privacy nor freedom to use > the software." > > We are grateful to Richard Stallman for his many helpful comments in > this process. APSL 2.0 is also being submitted to the Open Source > Initiative to certify > its continued compliance with the Open Source Definition. > > The Apple Public Source License 2.0 includes numerous changes to make > it even easier for Open Source developers to use and comply with, > including: > > * Source distribution is only required for "External Deployment", > allowing individuals and corporations to do private internal > deployments > > * An option to distribute source only to those receiving binaries, > rather than always having to distribute to the general public > > * Simpler, clearer, and more symmetric licensing terms > > The full text of the APSL is available from the following locations: > > * http://www.opensource.apple.com/apsl/2.0.txt (full text) > * http://www.opensource.apple.com/apsl/2.0-redline.pdf (diffs from 1.2) > > More details are available at > . > > [2] Open Source now accessible using Apple IDs > > The Darwin team is pleased to announce that we are now using Apple IDs > to indicate acceptance of the terms of the Apple Public Source License > 2.0. Now the same Apple ID you use for Apple Developer Connection, the > AppleCare Knowledge Base, the Apple Store, the iTunes Music Store, or > your .Mac account may be used to view and download APSL-licensed Darwin > source code. Additionally, you may update your contact information via > or request a reminder for your password from > . If you don't already have an Apple ID, please > obtain one at by clicking the "New Account" button. > _______________________________________________ > publicsource-announce mailing list | publicsource-announce@lists.apple.com > Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/publicsource-announce > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > -- Stewart Smith (stewart@linux.org.au) Vice President, Linux Australia From dan@shearer.org Thu Aug 7 13:42:43 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h775g9oi027633 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:42:43 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19kdX4-0008UZ-00 by authid ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:11:50 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 13:43:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:11:50 +0930 On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 11:34:10AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 16:09:17 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:14:15PM +1000, John Knight wrote: > >> Layman's terms, what about 'Open Software'? Only a > >> slight change, but it might desribe it better. > > > > Until a person reaches that point, what better word do we currently > > have than "Linux" or "Linux-style" to describe Open Source, from > > OpenBSD through to Cygwin? Greg, you started this thread -- can you > > improve on this? > > Well, my argument was for a descriptive term. "Free software" fits > that bill. "Linux" (or "BSD", for that matter, before you accuse me > of being partisan :-) don't. I was't going to accuse you of being partisan :-) Linux comes nowhere near being an accurate term. But it is becoming widely understood to vaguely stand for free software. Naturally, I don't go around calling things Linux that clearly aren't. But in the context of your question, the man-on-the-street, I don't know of any term they're more likely to understand at the moment. To go on trying things like "Free software" and "Open source software" when people seem to be turning off them borders on ideology. Underinformed people want to call this sort of thing Linux. What can a few tens of thousands experts who know that's incorrect do? Maybe there's more important things to worry about. Most security people don't bother trying to correct the press about the word "hacker" any more. I've never heard a physicist correcting public speakers about the term "quantum leap", which is usually used in a sense that means the opposite of what it really is. Perhaps its about time entries were submitted to the online computer dictionaries around to give some more meanings to the word "Linux", along the lines of "Common name many non-technical apply to any free open source software". Might cause a problem for those who have to defend the trademark, but if its popular useage then it belongs in a dictionary. > Alone we can't, of course. But the term "free software" used to be > mainstream, and somebody changed that perception. Trying to do this again sounds a bit like quixotic. The "Open Source" movement has done that once, and it was a clever move, with continuing success in technical circles. But to do the same for the man in the street? By all means try, but why? Just live with the wrong things being called Linux and make sure that the right things are being run :-) -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From grog@lemis.com Thu Aug 7 14:00:37 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h775xsoi029574 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:00:36 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id CD419526BA; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:29:50 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Dan Shearer Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030807055950.GC24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="185D1s7FREAUfc0L" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 14:01:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:29:50 +0930 --185D1s7FREAUfc0L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 7 August 2003 at 15:11:50 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > > I've never heard a physicist correcting public speakers about the > term "quantum leap", which is usually used in a sense that means the > opposite of what it really is. Heh. Yes, that's one of my favourites too. But nothing you've said is a good argument for advocating misleading terminology. Why not just call it "windows"? >> Alone we can't, of course. But the term "free software" used to be >> mainstream, and somebody changed that perception. > > Trying to do this again sounds a bit like quixotic. That depends very much on the degree of success you expect. > The "Open Source" movement has done that once, and it was a clever > move, with continuing success in technical circles. But to do the > same for the man in the street? My understanding was that the term "open source" was aimed at non-technical people, those who found the term "free software" to be a little hard to digest. Not quite the man in the street, agreed. > By all means try, but why? Just live with the wrong things being > called Linux and make sure that the right things are being run :-) Because I'm unreasonable. The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --185D1s7FREAUfc0L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MerWIubykFB6QiMRAm57AJ9Pm+sGRc+JyjCM8WI9gvG3WAZJjQCcC8Ic U4dheyBz5mowAR/YcHfUUXc= =5mG+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --185D1s7FREAUfc0L-- From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Thu Aug 7 14:10:41 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h776A6oi030776 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:10:39 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:39:33 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Dan Shearer , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-Id: <20030807153940.405ee9c8.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030807055950.GC24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807055950.GC24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 14:11:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:39:40 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greg, > Heh. Yes, that's one of my favourites too. But nothing you've said > is a good argument for advocating misleading terminology. Why not > just call it "windows"? We don't call it "windows" because that's the truth of it all and we're all veteran porky pie tellers ;-) LMAO - -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Me0kNBhAwwyvg/kRAkpBAJ40QUvMLff0/qd9s45e8QgaaXfmhwCfXbvn 3YFMovXh7dAJ8d235UzkQpc= =iOk2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From michael@msdavies.net Thu Aug 7 15:18:05 2003 Received: from odin.hutton.sh (odin.hutton.sh [150.101.30.106]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h777Haoi005510 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:18:05 +0800 Received: from amavis by odin.hutton.sh with scanned-ok (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19kf1d-0006gM-00 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:47:29 +0930 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mydomain.com) by odin.hutton.sh with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19kf1c-0006g9-00 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:47:28 +0930 Received: from 203.202.88.90 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mrd) by www.hutton.sh with HTTP; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:47:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <47471.203.202.88.90.1060240648.squirrel@www.hutton.sh> From: "Michael Davies" To: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Subject: [Linux-aus] Linux.Conf.Au 2004 CFP Reminder Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 15:19:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:47:28 +0930 (CST) Just a quick Linux.Conf.Au 2004 reminder... Our Call for Papers (CFP) is closing in just over a weeks time, so if you're a budding open-source contributor, and you'd love the chance to present your work to your peers, now is the time to submit an abstract. Gain fame, fortune, and chocolate frogs. Join the ranks of those who have spoken at an LCA. Gain publicity for your project, find new contributors and beta-testers, rub shoulders with internationally-known speakers. You know you want to, make the effort, and put together an abstract and send it in. Abstracts close on Monday August 18, 2003. See http://lca2004.linux.org.au/cfp.cgi for details. Anyone is welcome to submit an abstract. Don't delay, contribute to the community today! Your friendly Linux.Conf.Au 2004 Organising Team... -- Michael Davies Linux.Conf.Au Adelaide Jan 12-17 2004 michael at msdavies dot net Australia's Premier Linux Conference http://lca2004.linux.org.au From jdub@perkypants.org Thu Aug 7 15:54:27 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h777s3oi009484 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:54:27 +0800 Received: (qmail 27124 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 07:53:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 07:53:57 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C2C3C89 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:53:28 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E1FA10B94F; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:53:28 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux.Conf.Au 2004 CFP Reminder Message-ID: <20030807075328.GD1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <47471.203.202.88.90.1060240648.squirrel@www.hutton.sh> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47471.203.202.88.90.1060240648.squirrel@www.hutton.sh> Reply-By: Sun Aug 10 17:52:17 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 17:52:17 up 11 days, 18:49, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 15:55:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:53:28 +1000 > Gain fame, fortune, and chocolate frogs. Dude, there better be frogs. No backing out. :-) - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBM http://sco.iwethey.org/ "Having strings in a language seems to be a case of premature optimization." - Paul Graham From conz@cyber.com.au Thu Aug 7 16:40:48 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h778eDoi014831 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:40:48 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id SAA04488; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:40:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BE4BD57BADD; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:40:11 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030807084011.GA17880@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO Australia calls in the lawyers Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 16:47:36 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:40:11 +1000 THE SCO Group is engaging a team of lawyers to investigate the legality of its controversial Linux licence in Australia, which was announced in the US early this morning. http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,6873464%5E15317%5E%5Enbv%5E15306,00.html -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From lloy0076@adam.com.au Thu Aug 7 19:51:36 2003 Received: from blizzard.mail.adnap.net.au (blizzard.mail.adnap.net.au [203.6.132.65]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h77Bp9oi002825 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:51:36 +0800 Received: from lightning.adam.com.au (lightning.adam.com.au [203.2.124.20]) by blizzard.mail.adnap.net.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EE8C98B6E for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:21:08 +0930 (CST) Received: (qmail 98608 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 11:51:08 -0000 Received: from 202-136-96-63.ip.adam.com.au (HELO mordor.middlearth.net.au) (202.136.96.63) by eden.adam.com.au with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 11:51:08 -0000 From: David Lloyd To: Jeff Waugh Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux.Conf.Au 2004 CFP Reminder Message-Id: <20030807213144.34ab1113.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030807075328.GD1362@lazarus> References: <47471.203.202.88.90.1060240648.squirrel@www.hutton.sh> <20030807075328.GD1362@lazarus> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 19:52:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:31:44 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 LOL > > Gain fame, fortune, and chocolate frogs. > > Dude, there better be frogs. No backing out. I wonder whether they'll be white or dark chocolate... ;-P - -- Who now has the strength to stand against the armies of Isengard and Mordor? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Mj+omk7m2JX6ki4RAmp/AJ9zRua1+9VUil2Af6wCB1GTelvqJQCfZjBf 30l4THga15Qu4LMOCq7YSYc= =YD6y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu Aug 7 20:25:03 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h77COMoi006704 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:25:03 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3FD13CCA for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:24:37 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299F513CCA for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:24:36 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux.Conf.Au 2004 CFP Reminder User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <47471.203.202.88.90.1060240648.squirrel@www.hutton.sh> <20030807075328.GD1362@lazarus> <20030807213144.34ab1113.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030807213144.34ab1113.lloy0076@adam.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308072024.35811.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 7 20:26:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:24:35 +0800 On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:01, David Lloyd wrote: >>> Gain fame, fortune, and chocolate frogs. >> Dude, there better be frogs. No backing out. > I wonder whether they'll be white or dark chocolate... That would prompt me to server marbled ones if I were organising it. Perhaps that gives more insight into my personality that it should. (-: The OSS way would be to find as many different flavours of choccy frog as possible before the event so we could have blueberry vs peach religious wars. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From jdub@perkypants.org Fri Aug 8 00:51:18 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-10.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.42]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h77Goeoi002584 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:51:18 +0800 Received: (qmail 27902 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 16:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.65.16) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 16:24:22 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9063C89 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:23:52 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E5AB21EB709; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:23:51 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Linux Australia Message-ID: <20030807162350.GM1362@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Linux Australia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reply-By: Mon Aug 11 02:23:28 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test1 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 02:23:28 up 12 days, 3:21, 3 users, load average: 2.44, 0.98, 0.57 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] The GPL Goes to Court Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 8 00:52:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:23:51 +1000 This ought to be interesting: "IBM, in its countersuit filed in federal court in Utah, alleged SCO had breached the general public license for Linux and infringed on IBM patents, according to the court documents." http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/030807/tech_ibm_sco_2.html - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "... Of course, compared with Holly Valance, who has beams of light shooting from her nipples, it all seems rather quaint now." - Rove McManus on Olivia Newton-John From chris@csamuel.org Fri Aug 8 19:49:06 2003 Received: from mail3.tpgi.com.au (mail.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.59]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h78Bmdoi027300 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:49:06 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by mail3.tpgi.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h78BmZS02908 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:48:36 +1000 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0819A3ECC for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] This one's big... User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20030805053628.GD26076@cyber.com.au> <200308052130.18624.bhards@bigpond.net.au> In-Reply-To: <200308052130.18624.bhards@bigpond.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200308082148.28823.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 8 19:50:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:48:27 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tuesday 05 Aug 2003 9:30 pm, Brad Hards wrote: > Common Criteria certification requirements and open source aren't a good > mix. If you change the configuration, you have to get it recertified. > What's the point of being able to fix it if you can't use it afterwards > because your certification is blown? Sure, you have the code and can see > what's wrong, but it isn't helping you... I spent a long time in the UK working in the government (DRA,DERA,DSTL) and this was something I really couldn't get my head around. You were allowed to run something with bugs in it because it was certified, but you weren't allowed to fix them because you'd break your certification. Fortunately there are useful things called "waivers" you could get from your friendly neighbourhood accreditor who usually would be quite pragmatic about such things (and in real life its his/her signoff of the system that mattered more than the rating of the individual components). But I have been known to recommend that when certified firewalls were being deployed that a more up to date, un-certified, firewall was put in front of it to protect it. :-) Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPzOOC41yjaOTJg85AQHc9gf6Ax3OBj7t3d3yHOUMMxYF1GDWKdswwDtZ D64NWFS1Sv3FQBDho9ll4ViegKgoZ6wJ6GxjfxkFs0pskgZpvDPXjHKxiakPz9ND E50dnglDMAuDYaNTPdGcFSD6zD5j3RJYym9EwragXx+dro6Ga8t+ffx7Behkh/na W8BbQu5jL1u2sz8NgKOG8Ncgr1fmgdEZRJZp+FzExV8K9fzqhEBdFmN6rXM03clj kj4vzlIXEh/XdGQpUVCEZqCHahzriV2rWSpt+rd0sGT7elXZz4z7yhBEyjdkfmXX MrnKKPefWJkthrZZ6+AfqDvTanABI4ze+qfNU4FUbeNYbT1yiGGhGg== =iZ4J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From conz@cyber.com.au Sat Aug 9 11:02:40 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7932Coi027158 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 11:02:37 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA15645 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:02:09 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 17F1757BADD; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:02:08 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030809030208.GC445@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO battle will boost Linux uptake -- analysts Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat Aug 9 11:03:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:02:08 +1000 Rather than being dead ends for open source and Linux development, the bumps along the way will, more likely, boost its use and acceptance by companies, said the analysts. http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=124035&liFlavourID=1&sp=1 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Sat Aug 9 22:09:09 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h79E8loi000309 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:09:09 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C3113CCA for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:09:38 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF3313CCA for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:09:37 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308092209.36940.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Laugh? You'll wet yourselves! (-: Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat Aug 9 22:10:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:09:36 +0800 Click! Click! You know you want to! (-: http://sco.gnudot.org/ Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From president@linux.org.au Sun Aug 10 15:13:10 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-07.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.39]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7A7Cmoi011753 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:13:10 +0800 Received: (qmail 24740 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2003 06:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.70.217) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 10 Aug 2003 06:52:38 -0000 Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738833C89; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:51:59 +1000 (EST) From: Pia Smith To: linux aus Cc: slug@slug.org.au, LA Committee , LUG Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Linux Australia Message-Id: <1060498356.21246.20.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Linux-aus] Monday Night Info session Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 10 15:14:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 10 Aug 2003 16:52:37 +1000 Hi all, Just a quick reminder to anyone interested in our Linux Skills in the IT Sector Seminar at 6pm, Monday evening. Come along to 5-11 Wentworth Ave, Sydney City, and don't forget to RSVP to pia@linux.org.au. Also please note that the exams will only be held at 10am on the Tuesday and Wednesday. Again please ensure you RSVP to pia@linux.org.au and read up on the exam prerequisites on the Linux Australia web page. Info at: http://linux.org.au/projects/lpi/ & http://www.lpi.org/nl/news_item/9 Cheers, Pia -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From stewart@linux.org.au Sun Aug 10 18:13:19 2003 Received: from mail019.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail019.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.160]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7AACxoi005913 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:13:19 +0800 Received: from saturn (c210-49-254-166.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.254.166]) by mail019.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7AACuV20129; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:12:57 +1000 Received: from [192.168.0.3] (helo=[192.168.0.3] ident=stewart) by saturn with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19lnC4-0002Bl-00; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:12:56 +1000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: big one (not spam) - actual rating From: Stewart Smith To: Leon Brooks Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au In-Reply-To: <200308061330.34625.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> <3F30F6AB.1074.15CAEB0F@localhost> <200308061330.34625.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1060510327.21886.1.camel@willster> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 10 18:14:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 10 Aug 2003 20:12:07 +1000 On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 15:30, Leon Brooks wrote: > Level 2, working on level 3 for *all* of IBM's servers and (IIRC level 4 > for some of them). Some specific MS-Windows configurations are already > at level 3 (presumably with everything disabled, the Administrator > account removed, and no network cable or removable devices attached). Don't know if anyone else remembers this, but NT 3.1 got (some) kind of US govt security rating - provided it was physically secure and not connected to anything. i.e. really useful as the server it was designed to be. I've got the details kicking around here somewhere...... thought that was always good for a laugh. That and my Information Security lecturer using Outlook... :) -- Stewart Smith (stewart@linux.org.au) Vice President, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Sun Aug 10 23:11:17 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7AFApoi007327 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:11:17 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id F090813CCA for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:11:26 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id F025013CCA for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:11:22 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: big one (not spam) - actual rating User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030805122259.GG22712@cyber.com.au> <200308061330.34625.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <1060510327.21886.1.camel@willster> In-Reply-To: <1060510327.21886.1.camel@willster> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308102311.22272.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 10 23:12:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:11:22 +0800 On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:12, Stewart Smith wrote: > Don't know if anyone else remembers this, but NT 3.1 got (some) kind > of US govt security rating - provided it was physically secure and > not connected to anything. A C2 clearance. No removable media, no network cable, serial or parallel ports, OTToMH. High security doorstop. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 11 08:30:03 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B0Teoi002568 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:30:02 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA23664; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:29:38 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 60B2257BADD; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:29:38 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030811002938.GZ26076@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] FWD: [osv-list] Funniest thing I've seen in a long time (SCO claim) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 08:31:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:29:38 +1000 This could be very interesting. i thank Brendan for the tip-off. In essence: I have the two letters now, which were faxed to me, both of them from Jack Messmen, CEO of Novell, to Darl McBride of SCO. What they say is that SCO has no contractual right to terminate IBM's AIX license, because, as earlier reported, it was a three-way contract, and one under which Novell retained the right to compel SCO to do pretty much whatever Novell wanted done respecting IBM's license rights. According to these letters, Novell told SCO not to terminate IBM's rights, and when SCO didn't comply, on June 12, Novell intervened and overruled SCO, which Novell says it had retained the right to do when it sold some, but not all, of its UNIX ownership rights. In other words, while SCO got some rights to UNIX, Novell retained veto power. ... ----- Forwarded message from Brendan Scott ----- From: Brendan Scott To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au Subject: [osv-list] Funniest thing I've seen in a long time (SCO claim) Apparently the IBM licence agreement was a tripartite one - IBM-SCO-Novell and one of the conditions was that Novell had the power to act on behalf of SCO in relation to any action in relation to the licence. Apparently Novell has the ability to waive any rights that SCO has under the agreement to take action against IBM. And, in a letter of 12 June this year, did so. Details at GrokLaw: http://radio.weblogs.com/0120124/ under August 8. If this is true, it is hilarious. Brendan and greetz to everyone on the list. -- Brendan Scott IT Law 0414 339 227 http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/brendanscott Open Source Business Consultancy http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/brendansweb Opensource AU Digest: brendansweb@optusnet.com.au _______________________________________________ osv-list mailing list osv-list@lists.osv.org.au http://www.osv.org.au/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From leon@cyberknights.com.au Mon Aug 11 11:02:20 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B31uoi018964 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:02:20 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EBD13CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:02:48 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56C513CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:02:46 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308111102.46403.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Dear Kieran Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 11:03:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:02:46 +0800 This morning, I picked up my indestructible little Nokia 6250 and dialled 0419660016 and had a little chat with Mr O'Shaughnessy about when/if he was going to get back to me with a licence price. He'd forwarded my emails to the legal crew in the US, he says (without acknowledging receipt at all, never mind) and as yet got no answer. For some odd reason, he seemed inclined to believe that they were fairly busy at the moment. I mentioned that yes, the unofficial news sites had recently picked up on some interesting clauses in Novell's part of the contract and this would probably make them even busier. Kieran's tone got decidedly less bantering at that point, although I must say that his business "face" didn't otherwise waver (which considering the depth of the change in voice tone was impressive). We're back to waiting, it seems, but if my reading of Kieran's response is at all indicative, TSG really, really don't want Novell's handle on the situation made public. Which of course is a cue for those opposing him to make free with list, blog and UseNet spamming. Con, would you please have a word in Sam's ear, if you haven't already? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 11 11:52:12 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B3pooi024261 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:52:12 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA25199; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:51:47 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C633557BADD; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:51:46 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Dear Kieran Message-ID: <20030811035146.GP26076@cyber.com.au> References: <200308111102.46403.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308111102.46403.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 11:53:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:51:46 +1000 On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 11:02:46AM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > This morning, I picked up my indestructible little Nokia 6250 and > dialled 0419660016 and had a little chat with Mr O'Shaughnessy about > when/if he was going to get back to me with a licence price. He'd > forwarded my emails to the legal crew in the US, he says (without > acknowledging receipt at all, never mind) and as yet got no answer. For > some odd reason, he seemed inclined to believe that they were fairly > busy at the moment. > > I mentioned that yes, the unofficial news sites had recently picked up > on some interesting clauses in Novell's part of the contract and this > would probably make them even busier. Kieran's tone got decidedly less > bantering at that point, although I must say that his business "face" > didn't otherwise waver (which considering the depth of the change in > voice tone was impressive). I wouldn't be too hard on Kieran. I've always found him a nice person to deal with, and I suspect he's been caught up (unbeknownst) in all this mess like the rest of us. > > We're back to waiting, it seems, but if my reading of Kieran's response > is at all indicative, TSG really, really don't want Novell's handle on > the situation made public. Which of course is a cue for those opposing > him to make free with list, blog and UseNet spamming. Con, would you > please have a word in Sam's ear, if you haven't already? ack. Be my guest ;-) -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From drpacket@bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 11 14:06:35 2003 Received: from mta02ps.bigpond.com (mta02ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.156]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B66Aoi006594 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:06:35 +0800 Received: from packet ([144.135.25.69]) by mta02ps.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HJF00D1NY8EIT@mta02ps.email.bigpond.com> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:05:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from cpe-203-51-145-204.vic.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.145.204]) by psmam01bpa.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_3_2c 71/3274764); Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:05:02 +0000 From: David Cartwright To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-id: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 14:08:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:05:02 +1000 Computerworld quotes Red Hat's Mark Webbink stating that SCO "retained David Boies' law firm (of Microsoft antitrust fame) on a contingency basis, by their own admission." see > http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php?id=782728010&fp=2&fpid=1 I have a question for any 'legal eagles': Assuming a law firm accepts a case on a contingency basis, but it is subsequently shown that the client has deliberately, or through lack of due diligence, mis-represented the case, could the law firm sue their former client? From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon Aug 11 14:20:29 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7B6Jtoi008164 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:20:29 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:49:31 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: David Cartwright Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question Message-Id: <20030811154941.6e7e4b86.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 14:21:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:49:41 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 David, > I have a question for any 'legal eagles': > Assuming a law firm accepts a case on a contingency basis, but it is > subsequently shown that the client has deliberately, or through lack of > due diligence, mis-represented the case, could the law firm sue their > former client? You can sue anyone for anything regardless of whether you'll win or not. For example, I could sue you for giving me the cold I had last year but it would hardly stand up. In fact, a judge might throw it out and award you damages for my being so stupid. The question we need to ask, though is: "Would it be worth the law firm suing the company who contracted them?" It depends on a case by case basis. It depends on the exact wording of the contract and so forth. The answer--in my humble opinion--is "yes" but the real question is: "Is it worth it?" DSL - -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/NzV9NBhAwwyvg/kRAshTAJsF2cdhRMpbU5FJCi1PHQZJPrI9cgCggsdB cSUhsZbfSR9p8vaQKs0pgOg= =DEG3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Mon Aug 11 14:48:19 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B6lmoi011149 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:48:19 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0445213CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:48:46 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C03213CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:48:44 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <20030811154941.6e7e4b86.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030811154941.6e7e4b86.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 14:49:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:48:43 +0800 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:19, David Lloyd wrote: > David Cartwright wrote: >> could the law firm sue their former client? > "Would it be worth the law firm suing the company who > contracted them?" There's going to be bugger-all left of The SCO Group after IBM have finished with them. And, I hope, of The Canopy Group - the authority behind them. Instead of making grand claims, IBM have left it up to the Court to decide. If the Court picks a value as small as half a billion dollars, that's over USD$300,000,000.00 more than The SCO Group has. "Your honour, I would like to recover my legal expenses from this small but very deep and still-smoking crater." Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon Aug 11 14:59:58 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7B6xRoi012523 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:59:58 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:28:53 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question Message-Id: <20030811162903.2eb5d38b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <20030811154941.6e7e4b86.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 15:00:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:29:03 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Leon, > Instead of making grand claims, IBM have left it up to the Court to > decide. If the Court picks a value as small as half a billion dollars, > that's over USD$300,000,000.00 more than The SCO Group has. "Your > honour, I would like to recover my legal expenses from this small but > very deep and still-smoking crater." Couldn't the courts also award legal costs to IBM if it is proven that the court case was, what's the right word: * pernicious? * not made seriously? * [I can't think of the word] ..i.e. such a stupid case that it shouldn't have been bought up by a reasonable lawyer? DSL - -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Nz63NBhAwwyvg/kRAlJmAJ0djA/SU1rZ6INNwg0KnZ2LwSPabQCcD/Mj jtswzNdueRA7oyn4e7MwHXc= =s5lK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdub@perkypants.org Mon Aug 11 15:16:04 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7B7FWoi014416 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:16:04 +0800 Received: (qmail 17076 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2003 07:02:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.166) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 11 Aug 2003 07:02:24 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9BD3C89 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:01:40 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E655F3876; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:01:42 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question Message-ID: <20030811070142.GU3919@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Linux Australia References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <20030811154941.6e7e4b86.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Reply-By: Thu Aug 14 17:00:23 EST 2003 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test3 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 17:00:23 up 23:02, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 15:17:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:01:42 +1000 > There's going to be bugger-all left of The SCO Group after IBM have > finished with them. And, I hope, of The Canopy Group - the authority > behind them. Hrm, that might be bad. Aren't you a KDE fan? If Canopy go down, some protection of Trolltech may disappear. Sure, we don't agree with what SCO are doing, but let's not wish their fate on Canopy just yet (or, at least until the smoke clears). :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "A rest with a fermata is the moral opposite of the fast food restaurant with express lane." - James Gleick, Faster From leon@cyberknights.com.au Mon Aug 11 15:22:13 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B7Lpoi015145 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:22:12 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8575113CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:22:54 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AA913CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:22:53 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030811162903.2eb5d38b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030811162903.2eb5d38b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308111522.52819.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 15:23:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:22:52 +0800 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:59, David Lloyd wrote: > Couldn't the courts also award legal costs to IBM if it is proven > that the court case was, what's the right word: > * pernicious? > * not made seriously? > * [I can't think of the word] IIRC, "frivolous" is the correct general term, and "vexatious" is the term used for doing it frequently. It's very hard to prove vexatiousness in Oz, things might not be the same in Yankeeland. > ..i.e. such a stupid case that it shouldn't have been bought up by a > reasonable lawyer? But for a few obvious exceptions (Jeremy Malcolm, and a Family Court lawyer called Penelope Keeley from Clairs Keeley come to mind), I'd be tempted to consider that term to be an oxymoron. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Mon Aug 11 15:26:04 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-169-201.arach.net.au [202.89.169.201]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B7PWoi015619 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:26:04 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1DB13CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:26:35 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C9E13CCA for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:26:34 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030811070142.GU3919@lazarus> In-Reply-To: <20030811070142.GU3919@lazarus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308111526.34273.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 15:27:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:26:34 +0800 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:01, Jeff Waugh wrote: > >> There's going to be bugger-all left of The SCO Group after IBM have >> finished with them. And, I hope, of The Canopy Group - the >> authority behind them. > Hrm, that might be bad. Aren't you a KDE fan? If Canopy go down, some > protection of Trolltech may disappear. I'd consider it to be "some risk to TrollTech" disappearing. And TT could always do a fundraiser like Blender3D did if they really, really needed money. But I doubt they will: SuSE, for example, are big fans of KDE and not showing any signs of incipient evapouration. (-: And yes, I do like KDE, bloats and all. :-) > Sure, we don't agree with what SCO are doing, but let's not wish > their fate on Canopy just yet (or, at least until the smoke > clears). :-) The smoke might assist an act of social Darwinism, though. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon Aug 11 15:27:31 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7B7R2oi015795 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:27:30 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:56:54 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Jeff Waugh Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question Message-Id: <20030811165659.1e405209.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030811070142.GU3919@lazarus> References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <20030811154941.6e7e4b86.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030811070142.GU3919@lazarus> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.3JXEZGXRTTjAhU" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 15:29:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:56:59 +0930 --=.3JXEZGXRTTjAhU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heh, > Hrm, that might be bad. Aren't you a KDE fan? If Canopy go down, some > protection of Trolltech may disappear. Sure, we don't agree with what SCO > are doing, but let's not wish their fate on Canopy just yet (or, at least > until the smoke clears). :-) It's all a complex web of who does what. If Canopy also attempt something to the effect of: "You couldn't have made a desktop like KDE without stealing IP from Microsoft Windows [whom Canopy somehow have acquired]." then KDE's gotten landed with the same stupid problem. *sigh* It's all too confusing if one asks me. DSL -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! --=.3JXEZGXRTTjAhU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/N0VHNBhAwwyvg/kRAnBxAKCLtZRrTfsg0HygxZIlRoXGDQXH3gCgi+1G Vk+v7hJdSA+kWTKmYr0zSw8= =7LfY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.3JXEZGXRTTjAhU-- From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon Aug 11 15:33:53 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7B7XUoi016644 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:33:53 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:03:04 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Legal Eagle question Message-Id: <20030811170312.7e70f3f6.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200308111522.52819.leon@cyberknights.com.au> References: <001201c35fce$80d4fe90$bcd4150a@packet> <200308111448.43979.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030811162903.2eb5d38b.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> <200308111522.52819.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.U:RrYk,2QuJXd?" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 15:34:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:03:12 +0930 --=.U:RrYk,2QuJXd? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leon, > But for a few obvious exceptions (Jeremy Malcolm, and a Family Court > lawyer called Penelope Keeley from Clairs Keeley come to mind), I'd be > tempted to consider that term to be an oxymoron. (-: This is the crux though. The lawyers have to play the following game: MAXIMISE RETURN with the following parameters: * likelihood of success * likelihood of failure * gullibility of client It's not always in a lawyer's best interest to close a case or pursue a case which is likely to succeed. True, representing Mr Brooks in Case X where I might win is nice, but if I represent Mr Srookb in Case Y which Mr Srookb loses might actually make ME as a layer richer. The law is an ass. Ideally, lawyers would be a resource that is free for all but then I picture a society which will sue you for waking up, regardless of whether that's the right thing to do. *sigh* I wonder if we'll ever develop a better system than this rather inane, capitalistic, maximise one's gain thing we have. DSL -- Ce soir je vais coucher avec un chouchou! Oh la la! --=.U:RrYk,2QuJXd? Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/N0a6NBhAwwyvg/kRArQaAJ9FVGIc3E00LrP6dfVnwQKRhyzgYQCeKygn kMHgQS01dujHBoc3Jg0DMLo= =DyK5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.U:RrYk,2QuJXd?-- From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 11 17:18:07 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7B9Heoi028106 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:18:06 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id TAA26956; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:17:38 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DF7FB57BADD; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:17:37 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030811091737.GF4451@cyber.com.au> References: <20030805053656.GE2146@cyber.com.au> <200308072219.07050.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308072219.07050.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [osv-list] This one's big... Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 11 17:19:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:17:37 +1000 On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 10:19:05PM +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > On Tuesday 05 Aug 2003 3:36 pm, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > This essentially means that the last major barrier has been removed for > > Linux deployments in sensitive-government sites in the US, Candada, UK, > > Australia and NZ, which following a similar security certification > > protocol suite... > > Umm, I hate to break it to people, but as someone who's spent a lot of time > working in the UK government this isn't necessarily as big a deal as it > sounds. Whilst accreditation is useful for systems, it is a very tentative > thing, you install a new RPM or fix a bug and your accreditation can go right > out of the window. I think people are missing my point. In this game, there are two types of players. Firstly, we have people like Chris, who have professional clue about what exactly this new certification means, what its purpose is and what its limitation is. Then there are the other 99.99% of the IT industry who have no clue about any of that, but for whom news items like the following in Australian IT: http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,6869218%5E15321%5E%5Enbv%5E15306,00.html LINUX software has been approved for use on the most sensitive computers inside US corporations and government, including those inside banks and the Pentagon. are a harbinger that Linux has surmounted any last remaining hurdles for widespread adoption within the inner circle of Western governments, and are thus pretty much 'good-enough' for everyone else. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 12 09:11:08 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C1ARoi004623 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:11:08 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA00916; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:10:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 27D1C57BADD; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:10:20 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 09:12:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:10:20 +1000 Let's follow the logic: Andrew Whyte, corporate systems administrator at Central Queensland University (CQU), said Linux is not ready to run high-end systems because of the lack of vendor support and frequent kernel updates. "Our experience with Linux was problematic due to the lack of vendor software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't keep up with the kernel development. Hence, we are locked in to older versions." http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=507195642&fp=16&fpid=0 So, what Andrew Whyte is saying is that because vendors (Sun, Oracle, IBM etc.) can't keep up with advancements with the Linux kernel, then Linux isn't ready for the enterprise. Makes sense? I think not. If Linux has the features you want, here and now, and your enterprise software vendor supports those features on Linux, then what's the problem? If, Linux lacks features which your enterprise software vendor needs to provide that software stack on top of the OS, then that's another story. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From enno@doc.metva.com.au Tue Aug 12 09:25:36 2003 Received: from doc.metva.com.au (c210-49-152-96.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.152.96]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C1Okoi006254 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:25:36 +0800 Received: by doc.metva.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1003) id D129DD78C00; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:24:44 +1000 (EST) From: Enno Davids To: Con Zymaris Cc: talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030812012444.GK23459@doc.metva.com.au> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 09:26:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:24:44 +1000 On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 11:10:20AM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: |Let's follow the logic: | | Andrew Whyte, corporate systems administrator at Central Queensland | University (CQU), said Linux is not ready to run high-end systems | because of the lack of vendor support and frequent kernel updates. | "Our experience with Linux was problematic due to the lack of vendor | software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest | Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't | keep up with the kernel development. Hence, we are locked in to older | versions." | |http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=507195642&fp=16&fpid=0 | |So, what Andrew Whyte is saying is that because vendors (Sun, Oracle, IBM |etc.) can't keep up with advancements with the Linux kernel, then Linux |isn't ready for the enterprise. | |Makes sense? I think not. No this is the same old problem Sys Admins always face... I want to use some package from some vendor (servlet engines and databases are the most common examples) and must choose a version of the underlying operating system that will be supported by the vendor of that software. That version will likely never be the latest and greatest but typically will be whatever was 6 months old/stable when the app vendor started their support... This is as true of commmercial closed sources UNIXes of course. The difference here (the point of the article I suspect) is that if you need any of features found in the newer versions of Linux, you may have to wait for your commercial apps to catch up... and as Linux evolves much more quickly than commercial closed source UNIXes, forgoing those features _could_ be more of an issue. In practice, most Sys Admins are well able to evaluate the risk exposure of things like a newer version of an OS versus the benefits. Its not uncommon to find yourself boxed in to running a new OS release (typically to avoid some security exploit) and ameliorating the risk by doing a quick test of the new environment to see if it can function and then waiting for you vendor to catch you up (you won't be the only customer demanding they get their shit together in such a situation...) Enno. From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue Aug 12 09:26:05 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7C1POoi006322 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:26:05 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:55:12 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Con Zymaris Cc: talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Message-Id: <20030812105512.11d14803.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.T:f6Hm,Mo'z4_y" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 09:29:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:55:12 +0930 --=.T:f6Hm,Mo'z4_y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Con, > So, what Andrew Whyte is saying is that because vendors (Sun, Oracle, IBM > etc.) can't keep up with advancements with the Linux kernel, then Linux > isn't ready for the enterprise. > > Makes sense? I think not. Yes, how postively stupid. It sounds like someone who hasn't got the faintest idea of how to administer a Linux operating system. One doesn't go around installing new kernels *because one can*. I suspect that this goes the same for all of the Unixes. > If Linux has the features you want, here and now, and your enterprise > software vendor supports those features on Linux, then what's the problem? LOL Maybe the problem is that when a new feature comes out (in the kernel or in userland) the system administrators might need to *think* about whether it's appropriate to include. Shock, horror! They might need to do some work... :( -- Microbits Linux Technician +61 8 8362 9220 --=.T:f6Hm,Mo'z4_y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OEH4NBhAwwyvg/kRAglRAJ43cU3H0mFViQmsHZ7uhE7RqP4UwACbBOIw ExpHJo/JQIPmKTGXaroORVM= =irYQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.T:f6Hm,Mo'z4_y-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue Aug 12 09:30:53 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-175-249.arach.net.au [202.89.175.249]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C1ULoi006993 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:30:52 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6127213CB9 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:31:51 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE8213CB9 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:31:50 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308120931.49729.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 09:33:16 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:31:49 +0800 On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:10, Con Zymaris wrote: > Let's follow the logic: > > Andrew Whyte, corporate systems administrator at Central Queensland > University (CQU), said Linux is not ready to run high-end systems > because of the lack of vendor support and frequent kernel updates. > "Our experience with Linux was problematic due to the lack of vendor > software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest > Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't > keep up with the kernel development. Hence, we are locked in to > older versions." > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=507195642&fp=16&fpid=0 Sounds like his beef is with the vendor, not with the OS. One has to wonder what sort of apps he's using that are so closely bound to exact kernel versions. Also, the "two weeks vs two days" argument makes me wonder just how large a cluster he's using. On identical machines, rolling out fifty in two days should be no problem at all. Plug in, power up, watch for smoke while it netboots and maybe self-installs, next. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 12 09:40:01 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C1daoi008102 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:40:00 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA01120; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:39:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 53F2157BADD; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:39:29 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David J N Begley Cc: talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, whytea@cqu.edu.au Message-ID: <20030812013929.GD11855@cyber.com.au> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 09:41:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:39:29 +1000 On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 11:20:36AM +1000, David J N Begley wrote: > Earlier today, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > Let's follow the logic: > [...] > > software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest > > Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't > > keep up with the kernel development. Hence, we are locked in to older > > versions." > [...] > > So, what Andrew Whyte is saying is that because vendors (Sun, Oracle, IBM > > etc.) can't keep up with advancements with the Linux kernel, then Linux > > isn't ready for the enterprise. > > Actually, I interpreted this as being because the commercial software vendors > (eg., Oracle, etc.) don't keep up with latest advances in the underlying > operating system (the kernel being an easy target here), he's stuck running > older versions of Linux in order to support those applications. I interpreted this the same way. No, it's not a Linux-specific problem. Yes, it is a problem if you need features in the enterprise application that you can't have because that requires a newer kernel. No, it doesn't mean that Linux isn't 'enterprise ready', it just means that vendors aren't keeping up, which as I suggested, is only a problem if you're missing out on must-have underlying OS features. > > This is a real problem, but it's not a Linux-specific problem (for example, we > have to run older versions of Solaris in order to be covered by Oracle support > for certain versions of Oracle - and you have to run certain versions of > Oracle in order to be covered by support for the apps running atop Oracle, > etc.). Which is the same for any platform Oracle (Peoplesoft et al) run on. It only becomse a 'Linux is not ready for the enterprise' problem when you don't have kernel-level features in situ that you absolutely need. > > Then again, maybe I'm just plain wrong - it's been a long day already... hehe. I am also in discord with Andrew's comment about the disparity between installs for Solaris and Linux. Explicitly: "The choice to move to Linux from Sun was prompted partly due to cost and the applications " Blackboard (an online course content system) and the Veritas clustering software both run on Solaris so at least there would no wasted knowledge investment if we needed to migrate back," he said. "It took me two weeks to build the Linux clusters which would have taken two days with Solaris." I know many would claim the complexity of installs (particularly when you couple extended toolsets like Perl, Python, Apache and a hundred others) on a clustered Linux domain is far less than the corresponding Solaris, but that all boils down to what you are used to. YMMV. This isn't, once again, a problem with Linux. I've cc:d Andrew Whyte in so he can respond. We may be mis-interpreting his notions and comments to the journalist. Cheers, Con Zymaris EDITOR AUUGN - Australian Unix Users Group Newsletter -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From brent@wallis.id.au Tue Aug 12 10:14:42 2003 Received: from web-gate.datafont.com.au (202-44-175-165.nexnet.net.au [202.44.175.165]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C2EKoi012018 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:14:41 +0800 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [192.168.18.2]) by web-gate.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C2kl2A022209 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:46:47 +1000 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C2lP0o025226 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:47:25 +1000 Received: (from bw@localhost) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7C2lPGp025224; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:47:25 +1000 Message-Id: <200308120247.h7C2lPGp025224@web-1.datafont.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: web-1.datafont.com.au: bw set sender to brent@wallis.id.au using -f From: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: X-Originating-IP: 192.168.18.1 X-Mailer: Usermin 1.030 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 10:15:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:47:25 +1000 Con Zymaris wrote .. > Let's follow the logic: > > Andrew Whyte, corporate systems administrator at Central Queensland > University (CQU), said Linux is not ready to run high-end systems > because of the lack of vendor support and frequent kernel updates. > "Our experience with Linux was problematic due to the lack of vendor > software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest > Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't > keep up with the kernel development. Hence, we are locked in to older > versions." > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=507195642&fp=16&fpid=0 > > So, what Andrew Whyte is saying is that because vendors (Sun, Oracle, IBM > etc.) can't keep up with advancements with the Linux kernel, then Linux > isn't ready for the enterprise. > > Makes sense? I think not. > > If Linux has the features you want, here and now, and your enterprise > software vendor supports those features on Linux, then what's the problem? > If, Linux lacks features which your enterprise software vendor needs to > provide that software stack on top of the OS, then that's another story. > > -- > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 > 2377 > Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus From bje+dated+1061086564.e0c207@air.net.au Tue Aug 12 10:16:43 2003 Received: from mailhub.air.net.au (mailhub.air.net.au [203.52.201.202]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C2G9oi012254 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:16:43 +0800 Received: from mailhub.air.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.air.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35CF736D90 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:16:04 +1000 (EST) To: David J N Begley Cc: Con Zymaris , talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030812121558.A12624@mailhub.air.net.au> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T4sUOijqQbZv57TR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from d.begley@uws.edu.au on Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 11:20:36AM +1000 From: Ben Elliston X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.68 (Shut Out) X-Primary-Address: bje@air.net.au Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 10:21:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:15:58 +1000 --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline > Actually, I interpreted this as being because the commercial > software vendors (eg., Oracle, etc.) don't keep up with latest > advances in the underlying operating system (the kernel being an > easy target here), he's stuck running older versions of Linux in > order to support those applications. If the whole thing were better designed, keeping up with the latest advances in the kernel would be optional, not mandatory. In my experience, many of these contraints are only put in place by vendors in order to minimise their support burden and risk (ie. "We will only support our product on Linux kernel with glibc version "). Now, in actual fact, we all know that there are other configurations which would work equally well, but customers can't afford to go getting themselves into a configuration that strips them of support. Come to think of it, now I can see why some sites are forced into the bizarre situation of one host per application! Ben --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OE3ebNtDbHIEhSURAkNqAJ9NfVtzWlbCP671GRIimJxdHlrVCwCfU3cN hmv/Jz+AgPtrJ6ozUYZD8/M= =zAZw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR-- From bje+dated+1061086783.f6cecd@air.net.au Tue Aug 12 10:20:04 2003 Received: from mailhub.air.net.au (mailhub.air.net.au [203.52.201.202]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C2Jjoi012722 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:20:03 +0800 Received: from mailhub.air.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.air.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D257136D93 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:19:43 +1000 (EST) To: Enno Davids Cc: Con Zymaris , talk@auug.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030812121939.B12624@mailhub.air.net.au> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> <20030812012444.GK23459@doc.metva.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030812012444.GK23459@doc.metva.com.au>; from enno.davids@metva.com.au on Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 11:24:44AM +1000 From: Ben Elliston X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.68 (Shut Out) X-Primary-Address: bje@air.net.au Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [Talk] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 10:24:00 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:19:39 +1000 --JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline > This is as true of commmercial closed sources UNIXes of course. The > difference here (the point of the article I suspect) is that if you > need any of features found in the newer versions of Linux, you may > have to wait for your commercial apps to catch up... and as Linux > evolves much more quickly than commercial closed source UNIXes, > forgoing those features _could_ be more of an issue. This is one area where open source apps are really decimating the proprietary vendors. Ben --JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OE67bNtDbHIEhSURAjvKAKD7/jBLABcFdWZ/w2w5oQFQ712jbACfWbmH ciUG1iBv/vVx/tKGZ4smtHg= =xYJR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq-- From indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU Tue Aug 12 10:59:18 2003 Received: from THE-TECH.MIT.EDU (THE-TECH.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.155]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C2wfoi017133 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:59:14 +0800 Received: (from indy@localhost) by THE-TECH.MIT.EDU (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7C2uUZ32251; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:56:30 -0400 From: indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU To: Leon Brooks Cc: linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Message-ID: <20030811225630.A31935@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> <200308120931.49729.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200308120931.49729.leon@cyberknights.com.au>; from leon@cyberknights.com.au on Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 09:31:49AM +0800 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 11:00:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:56:30 -0400 It's worth remembering that this is the "confessions of an experienced Solaris admin." So naturally he prefers the Sun way of doing things. (2 days vs 2 weeks, etc.) He's not really saying "a Linux based OS isn't up to the enterprise job," he's saying "there's isn't yet "true" support for my software on Linux." As others have noted, this has been absurdly generalized to "Linux isn't ready for the enterprise." (On this rationale I could have equally said in a previous job: "Only Windows is Enterprise ready because $APP my enterprise needs is only supported on Windows." I'm sure Mr. Whyte would scoff at such a statement.) The main issue here is of time and tide. When it comes to expensive, proprietary vendor software market forces guarantee that Linux support will improve and this argument will go away, here's why: Linux commoditises the OS. We're still working through some of the kinks in terms of hardware and OS support contracts (although I believe IBM is providing such "all in" services) but since Linux has no license cost, in time running it will be cheaper than running Solaris. This means, possibly, more profit for the application vendor, as there is less money going on the "OS layer" of the installation. Thus, in time they will support it. Indy On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 09:31:49AM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:10, Con Zymaris wrote: > > Let's follow the logic: > > > > Andrew Whyte, corporate systems administrator at Central Queensland > > University (CQU), said Linux is not ready to run high-end systems > > because of the lack of vendor support and frequent kernel updates. > > "Our experience with Linux was problematic due to the lack of vendor > > software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest > > Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't > > keep up with the kernel development. Hence, we are locked in to > > older versions." > > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=507195642&fp=16&fpid=0 > > Sounds like his beef is with the vendor, not with the OS. > > One has to wonder what sort of apps he's using that are so closely bound > to exact kernel versions. Also, the "two weeks vs two days" argument > makes me wonder just how large a cluster he's using. On identical > machines, rolling out fifty in two days should be no problem at all. > Plug in, power up, watch for smoke while it netboots and maybe > self-installs, next. > > Cheers; Leon > > -- > http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication > http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group > http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA > http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia > > _______________________________________________ > linux-aus mailing list > linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au > http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linux-aus -- Indranath Neogy From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue Aug 12 11:17:23 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7C3Gwoi019116 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:17:23 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:46:47 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU Cc: Leon Brooks , linux-aus@linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Message-Id: <20030812124647.3e0369e8.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030811225630.A31935@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> <200308120931.49729.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030811225630.A31935@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.ZZkT1+ob)u(dm3" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 11:18:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:46:47 +0930 --=.ZZkT1+ob)u(dm3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Indy, > (On this rationale I could have equally said in a previous job: > "Only Windows is Enterprise ready because $APP my enterprise needs > is only supported on Windows." I'm sure Mr. Whyte would scoff at > such a statement.) Now that's an optimistic statement. The response from a lot of management would be "Buy Windows then!". IT (or ICT) people are basically only seen when something goes wrong. Throwing money at IT and thereby making the "problem" go away, albeit in a most unreasonable and inefficient manner, actually works. DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician +61 8 8362 9220 --=.ZZkT1+ob)u(dm3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OFwfNBhAwwyvg/kRAsN/AJ42fQrJe4xtqeZ02PMQAAc/JTZH0gCeNTNq h8oOlkBtKLMj4eAuo88G4+Q= =j+v5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.ZZkT1+ob)u(dm3-- From brent@wallis.id.au Tue Aug 12 11:20:59 2003 Received: from web-gate.datafont.com.au (202-44-175-165.nexnet.net.au [202.44.175.165]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C3KRoi019520 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:20:59 +0800 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [192.168.18.2]) by web-gate.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C3qv2A022250 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:52:57 +1000 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C3rY0o025296 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:53:34 +1000 Received: (from bw@localhost) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7C3rYZ1025294; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:53:34 +1000 Message-Id: <200308120353.h7C3rYZ1025294@web-1.datafont.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: web-1.datafont.com.au: bw set sender to brent@wallis.id.au using -f From: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: X-Originating-IP: 192.168.18.1 X-Mailer: Usermin 1.030 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 11:23:39 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:53:34 +1000 Hi, Appologies to all....my last post was devoid of comment...slip of the mouse.:-) I am a recent Grad (3 yrs ago) from CQU, and this article disappoints me in several ways, not the least of which are: - CQU was always Linux orientated...in fact, they were running Sysadmin courses on Linux as far back as '96 - It displays a complete aboput face for a CQU person in that it displays a lack of continued learning on the part of this so called sysadmin. Continued learning and the keeping "up to date" was always a cornerstone of their IT courses when I attended. > Andrew Whyte, corporate systems administrator at Central Queensland > University (CQU), said Linux is not ready to run high-end systems > because of the lack of vendor support and frequent kernel updates. If he is using Debian, an admirable Linux distro, I would tend to agree, but what about RedHat? Don;t get me wrong, Debian suits a variety of situations, but if you have a large set of servers to keep up, then the RH choicxe could be better in terms of workload for a sysadmin. That being said though, a good Debian centric admin would have a plan in place and apt-get at their disposal to address this so called issue. > "Our experience with Linux was problematic due to the lack of vendor > software updates," Whyte said. "We are missing out on the latest > Linux features because the commercial software we are using can't > keep up with the kernel development. >Hence, we are locked in to older > versions." What this really says to me is: "I don;t know what I am doing... I don;t keep myself updated as to what is out there, and I would rather participate in some "deferred blame" to protect my own ass" These are the comments of an amateur "family IT guru"... not a sysadmin in a University whose Linux offerings, when I attended, exceeded those of an RHCE course. BW From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue Aug 12 11:37:07 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7C3aioi021354 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:37:07 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:06:37 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Message-Id: <20030812130637.0e921531.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200308120353.h7C3rYZ1025294@web-1.datafont.com.au> References: <200308120353.h7C3rYZ1025294@web-1.datafont.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.4NgnxOciDXNyTU" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 11:38:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:06:37 +0930 --=.4NgnxOciDXNyTU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent, > If he is using Debian, an admirable Linux distro, I would tend to agree, > but what about RedHat? Don;t get me wrong, Debian suits a variety of > situations, but if you have a large set of servers to keep up, then the RH > choicxe could be better in terms of workload for a sysadmin. That being > said though, a good Debian centric admin would have a plan in place and > apt-get at their disposal to address this so called issue. I have had to downgrade a good number of RedHat servers or hold them back because of RedHat's rather broken RPM dependency issues. People who say that "you can't use [name some such distribution]" in the enterprise generally : 1) Have a religious love of another distribution 2) Have no real knowledge of the distribution that's allegedly not good enough 3) Have opened their mouth before thinking and/or put foot in such mouth A person not familiar with a particular distribution is obviously going to take longer than a person familiar with it. That's no indication of whether a particular distribution is a "better choice in terms of workload" fo ra sysadmin. I postulate this null hypothesis: "That the Debian packaging system--with its configuration tools, priority levels and in-built dependency handling--coupled with a tightly controlled, peer reviewed, open source repository is flawed and likely to increase a system administrator's workload." Now, go prove it... DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician +61 8 8362 9220 --=.4NgnxOciDXNyTU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OGDFNBhAwwyvg/kRAvt3AJ0bn5Tnerp29PCaMMTcTp5KFlT0OQCeKshi I6qD1M4uioPhOxihc7XzJ9w= =jPmY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.4NgnxOciDXNyTU-- From conz@cyber.com.au Tue Aug 12 11:53:09 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C3qkoi023114 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:53:08 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA02252; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:52:40 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F0BCE57BADD; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:52:39 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU Cc: Leon Brooks , linux-aus@linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Message-ID: <20030812035239.GK11855@cyber.com.au> References: <20030812011020.GL2146@cyber.com.au> <200308120931.49729.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030811225630.A31935@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030811225630.A31935@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 11:54:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:52:39 +1000 On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 10:56:30PM -0400, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote: > > It's worth remembering that this is the "confessions of an > experienced Solaris admin." So naturally he prefers the Sun way > of doing things. (2 days vs 2 weeks, etc.) I'm not so sure. I wanted to try and zero on on what he understood the issues to be. Just because someone raises issues with Open Source doesn't mean the issues aren't real (obviously!) This is why I've been trying to solicit a response from Andrew W. What didn't make sense was the arguments presented, or perhaps the manner in which they were presented. Cheers, Con Zymaris EDITOR AUUGN - Australian Unix Users Group Newsletter -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From brent@wallis.id.au Tue Aug 12 12:37:41 2003 Received: from web-gate.datafont.com.au (202-44-175-165.nexnet.net.au [202.44.175.165]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C4bJoi028360 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:37:40 +0800 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [192.168.18.2]) by web-gate.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C59n2A022341 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:09:49 +1000 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C5AQ0o025403 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:10:26 +1000 Received: (from bw@localhost) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7C5AQGl025401; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:10:26 +1000 Message-Id: <200308120510.h7C5AQGl025401@web-1.datafont.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: web-1.datafont.com.au: bw set sender to brent@wallis.id.au using -f From: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: X-Originating-IP: 192.168.18.1 X-Mailer: Usermin 1.030 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 12:38:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:10:26 +1000 Hi, David Lloyd wrote .. > I have had to downgrade a good number of RedHat servers or hold them back > because of RedHat's rather broken RPM dependency issues. Same here, up until 18 months ago where I took a decision to stick with one distro with a reasonable packaging system, namely RH. Keeping mind that I deal with a "wide audience" of industries and needs... (consultancy)... I had to pick something like this because it enables me to do more for less. When evaluating an FOSS product, I always consider the package's "forward path" before commiting. If it isn't there, then I leave it out. Of course, there is a need to look byond that rule from time to time, but then, that's up to me, a choice I don;t have in a proprietry offering. It's better for me (and my client) if I can put in place a tool which handles issues like security patches etc without having to blink, to that end. RedHat Network seems well suited. Yep, installing individual RPMS for upgrades can be a bastard, but why bother when RH do all that via RHN? You see, laziness is a virtue. I could choose to run each patch individually and suffer the consequences of a never ending dependency loop, but why bother when it's all there and done for a paultry yearly cost? >People who say > that > "you can't use [name some such distribution]" in the enterprise generally > : > > 1) Have a religious love of another distribution > 2) Have no real knowledge of the distribution that's allegedly not good > enough > 3) Have opened their mouth before thinking and/or put foot in such mouth > > A person not familiar with a particular distribution is obviously going > to > take longer than a person familiar with it. That's no indication of whether > a particular distribution is a "better choice in terms of workload" fo > r a sysadmin. Agreed on all counts... but you left off one : 4)Have not a productive bone in their bodies and spend their time smoking up the room to hide their own inadequate approach to their job. As a consultant, I have to deal with so called IT gurus like this on a regular basis. They are "old school" operators, using the "magic of computers" to smoke up the facts with an ignorant user base/manager (aka BOFH.) > I postulate this null hypothesis: > > "That the Debian packaging system--with its configuration tools, priority > levels and in-built dependency handling--coupled with a tightly controlled, > peer reviewed, open source repository is flawed and likely to increase > a system administrator's workload." > Now, go prove it... You see,this is where I reckon the FOSS paradigm works so well. I don't have to prove anything, it's the demand on a particular package which matters most. IMHO , low demand for a FOSS product equates to there not being a need for it, or that there is a fundamental flaw in it's approach. The latter often addressed by a code fork if the "demand" is there. It's not what I or anyone else does (or postulates...;-) that matters, more so, it's the general acceptance of what is being done with it that matters most in terms of one distros acceptance over another. For my part, it provides choice and an ability to be precise with a particular install. Although I chose RH for high maintenance sites(Red Hat Network being the key here), I still use Debian in some circumstances. Maybe evan a FreeBSD install here and there for a Firewall, and RedHat AS for a clients accounting package cluster with RedHat Network. To that end, a convergence of distros would be disasterous, and would slow down development by moving away from plural views. The trick ,is it not, is to establish differing points of view through which the best solution is found. There HAS to be choice, wide sets of choices, otherwise the FOSS development model would fail. The thing that irks me the most about such comments as this CQU admins, is that it slates this "choice" as being a downside, rather than a postive and enlightening feature. It's a contrary thought in direct oppostion to the culture that existed in CQU right up until I finished in 2000... I am ashamed of my Alumni...:-( BW From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Tue Aug 12 13:22:02 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7C5Laoi000783 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:22:01 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:51:13 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT Message-Id: <20030812145113.175dfa11.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200308120510.h7C5AQGl025401@web-1.datafont.com.au> References: <200308120510.h7C5AQGl025401@web-1.datafont.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.L3T)SKv'TzHvRw" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 13:23:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:51:13 +0930 --=.L3T)SKv'TzHvRw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent, > > I have had to downgrade a good number of RedHat servers or hold them > > back because of RedHat's rather broken RPM dependency issues. > > Same here, up until 18 months ago where I took a decision to stick with > one distro with a reasonable packaging system, namely RH. Fair enough. > RedHat Network seems well suited. It is...and it's not altogether different from what the Debian security folks attempt to achieve. > Yep, installing individual RPMS for upgrades can be a bastard, but why > bother when RH do all that via RHN? Vendor lock in. > You see, laziness is a virtue. I could choose to run each patch > individually and suffer the consequences of a never ending dependency > loop, but why bother when it's all there and done for a paultry yearly > cost? See above. > 4)Have not a productive bone in their bodies and spend their time smoking > up the room to hide their own inadequate approach to their job. LOL > > "That the Debian packaging system--with its configuration tools, > > priority levels and in-built dependency handling--coupled with a tightly > > controlled, peer reviewed, open source repository is flawed and likely > > to increase a system administrator's workload." > > Now, go prove it... > > You see,this is where I reckon the FOSS paradigm works so well. > I don't have to prove anything, it's the demand on a particular package > which matters most. IMHO , low demand for a FOSS product equates to there > not being a need for it, or that there is a fundamental flaw in it's > approach. The latter often addressed by a code fork if the "demand" is > there. True but that has nothing to do with my null hypothesis. > It's not what I or anyone else does (or postulates...;-) that matters, > more so, it's the general acceptance of what is being done with it that > matters most in terms of one distros acceptance over another. That may be true but again it's not addressing the hypothesis I have put forward. > To that end, a convergence of distros would be disasterous, and would slow > down development by moving away from plural views. The trick ,is it not, > is to establish differing points of view through which the best solution > is found. There HAS to be choice, wide sets of choices, otherwise the FOSS > development model would fail. A difficult trick indeed. > The thing that irks me the most about such comments as this CQU admins, is > that it slates this "choice" as being a downside, rather than a postive > and enlightening feature. It's a contrary thought in direct oppostion to > the culture that existed in CQU right up until I finished in 2000... I am > ashamed of my Alumni...:-( But it is to a certain extent a downside. What if you don't want to think about choices...isn't that why you install RedHat? DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician +61 8 8362 9220 --=.L3T)SKv'TzHvRw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OHlJNBhAwwyvg/kRArWTAJ43a7PZO2f+FWOvH7Vn6K6zZv0ulwCfXOlO D7KoeTiV4GD2880XPdu2e3I= =M0te -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.L3T)SKv'TzHvRw-- From bw@wallis.id.au Tue Aug 12 14:06:22 2003 Received: from web-gate.datafont.com.au (202-44-175-165.nexnet.net.au [202.44.175.165]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C65voi005628 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:06:21 +0800 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [192.168.18.2]) by web-gate.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C6cR2A022522 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:38:27 +1000 Received: from web-1.datafont.com.au (web-1.datafont.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7C6d40o025658 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:39:04 +1000 Received: (from bw@localhost) by web-1.datafont.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7C6d4PF025656; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:39:04 +1000 Message-Id: <200308120639.h7C6d4PF025656@web-1.datafont.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: web-1.datafont.com.au: bw set sender to bw@wallis.id.au using -f From: "Brent Wallis (IS)" Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Computerworld: Linux 'not ready' for enterprise IT To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: X-Originating-IP: 192.168.18.1 X-Mailer: Usermin 1.030 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 14:07:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:39:04 +1000 Hi David, David Lloyd wrote .. > > RedHat Network seems well suited. > > It is...and it's not altogether different from what the Debian security > folks attempt to achieve. Agreed. > > Yep, installing individual RPMS for upgrades can be a bastard, but why > > bother when RH do all that via RHN? > > Vendor lock in. Disagree, rather, a deliberate choice based on the facts at the time. If the circumstances dictate a change at the end of the hardware cycle, then a move to a different distribution would not be out of the question. I have chosen ease and stability, not lock in. These are static installs with mature applications software installed. All I really need to do is keep track of security issues and update where required. RHN enables this in a hands off manner, with plenty of online information and hoistory. > > You see, laziness is a virtue. I could choose to run each patch > > individually and suffer the consequences of a never ending dependency > > loop, but why bother when it's all there and done for a paultry yearly > > cost? > > See above. See below the above...;-) > > 4)Have not a productive bone in their bodies and spend their time smoking > > up the room to hide their own inadequate approach to their job. > > LOL Yes, the BOFH lives and breathes in several sites around Melbourne. ;-) > > > "That the Debian packaging system--with its configuration tools, > > > priority levels and in-built dependency handling--coupled with a tightly > > > controlled, peer reviewed, open source repository is flawed and likely > > > to increase a system administrator's workload." > > > Now, go prove it... > > > > You see,this is where I reckon the FOSS paradigm works so well. > > I don't have to prove anything, it's the demand on a particular package > > which matters most. IMHO , low demand for a FOSS product equates to there > > not being a need for it, or that there is a fundamental flaw in it's > > approach. The latter often addressed by a code fork if the "demand" is > > there. > > True but that has nothing to do with my null hypothesis. Then I have missed the point and maybe you should bang my skull a little harder. What do you mean to convey by your null hypothesis? >But it is to a certain extent a downside. What if you don't want to think >about choices...isn't that why you install RedHat? Oh but I did think about choices... very carefully. I made a deliberate choice based on the facts at the time. In my small world, one of the problems with FOSS is the rapid development cycle. It is difficult for business to keep up. What's more, smaller ISVs have trouble keeping their apps compatable. Standardisation and extended support cycles like those that exist in RH ES distro's mean that there is no fundamental fiscal excuse for companies like MYOB to continue ignoring the growing demand. They can no longer plead the "it's too expensive to keep up with the Linux updates" because there is now a version which gaurantees 5 years worth of support. I honestly believe that the last "thread" holding up the MS model is this very issue. They have made it "easy for numbats" to develop on Windows, and it's this _perceived_ "ease" standing in the way of ISVs really looking more closely at the advantages of FOSS, an ddeveloping for it. Please note also that I have have known to install a Win2k box here and there where it suits. The key issue is the choice and willingness to change when the situation dictates you must. It all depends on the environment in which the OS has to exist. If value for money is a key issue, then using that as a starting point and working back to a solution can bring up varied results. In a "majority" Windows environment, _sometimes_ , changing the entire infrastructure would not be a prudent fiscal exercise. IMHO, this is really what constitutes vendor lockin, ie, a situation where so much money has been spent on infrastructure that a fundamental change means financial stress and boardroom embarassment. The latter is more prevalent than you can imagine. There are many networks out there that should be changed, but to do so would bring down the wrath of shareholders. All is not lost however, I just look at these as opportunities for the next cycle of change. BW From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue Aug 12 16:45:13 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-175-249.arach.net.au [202.89.175.249]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C8ihoi023358 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:45:13 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A14213CB9 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:26 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BBE13CB9 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:24 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308121646.24594.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Locals get Novell issue in TSG case Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 16:46:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:24 +0800 http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/12/1060588381531.html Two letters written by Novell chairman and CEO, Jack Messman, to SCO president and CEO, Darl McBride, in June throw an entirely different light on the lawsuit between SCO and IBM, which the former initiated in March. Both letters were cited by IBM as exhibits last week when it counter-sued SCO, on a range of issues. The letters indicate that SCO has no contractual right to terminate IBM's AIX licence. The agreement under which IBM acquired these rights appears to have been a three-way contract under which Novell retained certain rights, one being the right to compel SCO to waive or revoke any of its (SCO's) rights under the contract. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From greebo@pacific.net.au Tue Aug 12 17:12:14 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-08.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.40]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7C9Bkoi026321 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:12:14 +0800 Received: (qmail 13489 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2003 08:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.166) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 12 Aug 2003 08:48:59 -0000 Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5915D3C89; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:48:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? From: Pia Smith To: Dan Shearer Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au In-Reply-To: <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 17:13:02 2003 X-Original-Date: 12 Aug 2003 18:49:04 +1000 On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 15:41, Dan Shearer wrote: > On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 11:34:10AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 16:09:17 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:14:15PM +1000, John Knight wrote: > > >> Layman's terms, what about 'Open Software'? Only a > > >> slight change, but it might desribe it better. > > > > > > Until a person reaches that point, what better word do we currently > > > have than "Linux" or "Linux-style" to describe Open Source, from > > > OpenBSD through to Cygwin? Greg, you started this thread -- can you > > > improve on this? > > > > Well, my argument was for a descriptive term. "Free software" fits > > that bill. "Linux" (or "BSD", for that matter, before you accuse me > > of being partisan :-) don't. So far as random terms that the general person doesn't understand, neither "Free Software" nor "Open Source" are easy to understand clear cut concepts from their names. Once people understand them, its all well and good and they make a choice. The danger in choosing "Free Software" is that there is an automatic (and in my opinion negative) reaction to the word "free" that is misleading. The reasons are not the problem, but we can't afford having this initial misunderstanding. Having a term such as Open Source that means _nothing_ to the average person before you explain it, is much better. I like Open Source and seeing it and Linux have become buzzwords that are attracting interest why should we bother changing them and confusing the average layman who really doesn't care anyway. My analogy can be expressed better by using people names. Being called Pia is interesting for me because most people have never met a Pia and therefore have no pre-conceptions based on the name. A name like John, or Greg, or Susan have pre-conceptions associated because of childhood, movies or whatever, so whether a person knows it or now, often pre-conceptions of that name are imaged onto a child of that name. > I was't going to accuse you of being partisan :-) Linux comes nowhere > near being an accurate term. But it is becoming widely understood to > vaguely stand for free software. And we don't really care about what draws them, we just care they are drawn. Would you change your fish bait because you don't like the smell if it was catching you lots of fish (bad analogy, I swear there are no hooks involved! :) > > Alone we can't, of course. But the term "free software" used to be > > mainstream, and somebody changed that perception. > > Trying to do this again sounds a bit like quixotic. The "Open Source" > movement has done that once, and it was a clever move, with continuing > success in technical circles. But to do the same for the man in the > street? By all means try, but why? Just live with the wrong things being > called Linux and make sure that the right things are being run :-) Wonderfully put :) Regards, Pia -- Pia Smith From chris@csamuel.org Tue Aug 12 17:38:48 2003 Received: from mail3.tpgi.com.au (mail.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.59]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C9cLoi029181 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:38:48 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by mail3.tpgi.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7C9cKP21767 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:38:20 +1000 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6803EC6 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Locals get Novell issue in TSG case User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200308121646.24594.leon@cyberknights.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200308121646.24594.leon@cyberknights.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200308121938.15291.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 17:39:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:38:13 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tuesday 12 Aug 2003 6:46 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/12/1060588381531.html > > Two letters written by Novell chairman and CEO, Jack Messman, to > SCO president and CEO, Darl McBride, in June throw an entirely > different light on the lawsuit between SCO and IBM, which the > former initiated in March. Cool, I guess Sam got my email about it then. :-) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPzi1hY1yjaOTJg85AQFqJwf+NKxdVX6M02vCm5FcbL6hCKA3Ezs20CdY UkgbhLqHIJxOBdPKctjWXOHEQKwelTzWVRAXZdY1O5wfxIqV7bNkSPDqKKudwJsC ovsyQbVfmLQlVOqISUFp7Xm04AvXtYB5peSqA7eyE26gwXceaWgLtAFZ+qq3knnn TWNxWXmixcC0tDOk0BARI2s3UxaYc8nVINZLoVLKGFoIDJE8If88C6G5G+GExJXd xRR02ReJOmF6WaIE6GUkp6sSGTLVVdIhtglX3/Cpq7MMZ9pVJ92aA3NJYHukqLgf i/4VXf0B1rVjipNB/w0IIfXwYDeylsb6CP1Q0dTABuArYHFykBIJug== =4HaM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris@csamuel.org Tue Aug 12 17:43:17 2003 Received: from mail1.tpgi.com.au (mail.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.57]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C9gqoi029724 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:43:17 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by mail1.tpgi.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7C9gmU23361 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:42:51 +1000 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD88B3EC6 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Locals get Novell issue in TSG case User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200308121646.24594.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <200308121938.15291.chris@csamuel.org> In-Reply-To: <200308121938.15291.chris@csamuel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200308121942.47577.chris@csamuel.org> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 17:44:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:42:45 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tuesday 12 Aug 2003 7:38 pm, Chris Samuel wrote: > Cool, I guess Sam got my email about it then. :-) Aha - just got a reply from him about that email, he'd heard about it previously. :-) - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPzi2lY1yjaOTJg85AQE3ZAgAsGKjG6LStsBFxAfpZQyOVxxu3IxTUUnK FJUJrj/98mSwDuCB9GXd3ljeA1tn3OhD1e5+06iwK72c03b58efnctNO2zr4Uwrb wOkrKL7xm1g6+kcTbd3cetydS7tq/tYwIT1RERGvntwPaar4VkUvKsbKlmj6cGyS oAq5wsWodXDGjJGZ7/lr+lf/TPGKZ5A7Oit5o0xrMu8pNqIaipR0v/HK/KKGw97W aLcYOEETeSn8CwHGB9L6IOszfBzg0oujyDQFPxr5NNMwjH22YLbn3I3e8F892KuK U5WCwwan5BRz/y4erW4/9ewQ/OZwJZa5pc6mU1by7W42j7gF0xC+Tw== =tWm7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dan@shearer.org Tue Aug 12 17:42:11 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7C9fmoi029601 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:42:11 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19mVeq-0003Rl-00 by authid ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:11:36 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: Pia Smith Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 12 17:46:21 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:11:36 +0930 On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 06:49:04PM +1000, Pia Smith wrote: > On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 15:41, Dan Shearer wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 11:34:10AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > On Wednesday, 6 August 2003 at 16:09:17 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:14:15PM +1000, John Knight wrote: > > > >> Layman's terms, what about 'Open Software'? Only a > > > >> slight change, but it might desribe it better. > > > > > > > > Until a person reaches that point, what better word do we currently > > > > have than "Linux" or "Linux-style" to describe Open Source, from > > > > OpenBSD through to Cygwin? Greg, you started this thread -- can you > > > > improve on this? > > > > > > Well, my argument was for a descriptive term. "Free software" fits > > > that bill. "Linux" (or "BSD", for that matter, before you accuse me > > > of being partisan :-) don't. > > So far as random terms that the general person doesn't understand, > neither "Free Software" nor "Open Source" are easy to understand clear > cut concepts from their names. Once people understand them, its all well > and good and they make a choice. The danger in choosing "Free Software" > is that there is an automatic (and in my opinion negative) reaction to > the word "free" that is misleading. The reasons are not the problem, but > we can't afford having this initial misunderstanding. Having a term such > as Open Source that means _nothing_ to the average person before you > explain it, is much better. I like Open Source and seeing it and Linux > have become buzzwords that are attracting interest why should we bother > changing them and confusing the average layman who really doesn't care > anyway. I think you are overlooking something here, and on reflection this might be part of Greg's original point: "Open Source" might not mean anything to the average layman, but to the average person who has to purchase IT (even with no technical skills at all) the word Open has been completely hijacked already. Open is a buzzword widely used to mean "good" in all sorts of ways including open standards, and many things are called open standards that are not open by any understanding of the word that you or I are likely to have. A government purchasing officer has seen the word Open used by just about every computing company there is, especially Microsoft. Which means that, in some golden future, there might be a term that is none of the common options and if not a completly accurate description (which is what Greg was seeking to open debate on) at least has no historic baggage. Aurgshjaksda, perhaps. I'm just pessimistic that such a thing is possible in the near term without risking losing the audience entirely. An unprecedented number of people are tuned in right now thanks to a coincidence of influences around the world. People with business interests based on this stuff aren't looking for it to change now. -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From patricklesslie@ihug.com.au Wed Aug 13 15:08:24 2003 Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7D77voi008824 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:08:24 +0800 Received: from p419-tnt3.syd.ihug.com.au (sten.toxnet.homelinux.org) [203.173.133.165] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19mpjc-0002qy-00; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:07:53 +1000 Received: from patrick (helo=localhost) by sten.toxnet.homelinux.org with local-esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19mpRA-00007s-00; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:48:48 +1000 From: Patrick Lesslie To: Dan Shearer cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? In-Reply-To: <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 13 15:09:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:48:48 +1000 (EST) On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Dan Shearer wrote: > On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 06:49:04PM +1000, Pia Smith wrote: ... > > So far as random terms that the general person doesn't understand, > > neither "Free Software" nor "Open Source" are easy to understand clear > > cut concepts from their names. Once people understand them, its all well > > and good and they make a choice. The danger in choosing "Free Software" > > is that there is an automatic (and in my opinion negative) reaction to > > the word "free" that is misleading. The reasons are not the problem, but > > we can't afford having this initial misunderstanding. Having a term such > > as Open Source that means _nothing_ to the average person before you > > explain it, is much better. I like Open Source and seeing it and Linux > > have become buzzwords that are attracting interest why should we bother > > changing them and confusing the average layman who really doesn't care > > anyway. > > I think you are overlooking something here, and on reflection this might > be part of Greg's original point: "Open Source" might not mean anything > to the average layman, but to the average person who has to purchase IT > (even with no technical skills at all) the word Open has been completely > hijacked already. Open is a buzzword widely used to mean "good" in all > sorts of ways including open standards, and many things are called open > standards that are not open by any understanding of the word that you or > I are likely to have. A government purchasing officer has seen the word > Open used by just about every computing company there is, especially > Microsoft. > > Which means that, in some golden future, there might be a term that is > none of the common options and if not a completly accurate description > (which is what Greg was seeking to open debate on) at least has no > historic baggage. Aurgshjaksda, perhaps. > > I'm just pessimistic that such a thing is possible in the near term > without risking losing the audience entirely. An unprecedented number of > people are tuned in right now thanks to a coincidence of influences > around the world. People with business interests based on this stuff > aren't looking for it to change now. The word "open" has certainly been attacked over the years. Wasn't there an "Open Software Group" with something to do with proprietary desktops? But I would agree that "Open Source" seems to have remained largely unassailed, and has grown healthy and strong in the last few years. It's a great term too. It's distribution neutral, and open is a lovely word, in the context, with a meaning reminiscent of "libre". Perhaps a little ambiguous, like "free" is, but in a kinder way I think, and after all, if the source isn't open, what is? Patrick Lesslie From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed Aug 13 18:29:53 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-175-249.arach.net.au [202.89.175.249]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7DATToi031058 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:29:53 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C1213CCB for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:31:52 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C1913CCB for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:31:50 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308131831.49744.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 13 18:30:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:31:49 +0800 On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:48, Patrick Lesslie wrote: > Wasn't there an "Open Software Group" with something to do > with proprietary desktops? The Open Group owns the definition of what is and is not UNIX. And the trademark to it. They're making noises which seem to be hinting that they'd like to help with sprinkling holy UNIX water on Linux but don't want to upset the big UNIX names by so doing. Well, they don't have to worry unduly about AIX or Irix, but Solaris is a bit of a difficult read (must confess I'd probably enjoy the awkward posturing from Sun if TOG did bless Linux) and SCO UNIX/OpenServer/UnixWare is almost certainly a political powder keg (although massively amusing if they _did_ react :-). Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris@csamuel.org Wed Aug 13 19:21:53 2003 Received: from mail2.tpgi.com.au (mail.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.58]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7DBLVoi004172 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:21:53 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by mail2.tpgi.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DBLRkj022160; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:21:28 +1000 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C1A3EC1; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Chris Samuel To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200308132121.25379.chris@csamuel.org> X-Kaspersky-Antivirus: Passed Subject: [Linux-aus] Jabber Australia ? Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 13 19:22:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:21:19 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Anyone know what's going on with Jabber Australia these days ? I registered my interest with them back when the website first started and not heard a bean since.. Chris - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPzofMY1yjaOTJg85AQEaZwf/cFoofU901PRxZetCAuMcvz3zOtXednK6 sZ7Z+T5G1njnAr/gJ0EYfFLKK2TFJGLt5VGRxtFBtznKdxzYm8ktqTaQW69r9ydr LJHL1TA3jYKRQHMkrCh+JPr/jAcciCHJ4PFG9h+mk4tOFU1hA5OENc5BQbVafgWm Rvl49TIM2uAkpFDfbp+akghNJmV9SHZgzVgI/SCjcQklSkeEj8ZsQyDZMVQeEUCK zA327axcBWfrhb94HDk9WT8jIP5Mo2bT5klQpnH8+0oRdlmL/VKf0lreB10MDnLp a6a1KZn+bBNXz3F8y6siKGnciRM3K2/RbyF8pkvXly2wYWfI98Rz7g== =JbT2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bhards@bigpond.net.au Wed Aug 13 20:23:52 2003 Received: from mta07ps.bigpond.com (mta07ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.132]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7DCNNoi011109 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0800 Received: from rachel ([144.135.25.69]) by mta07ps.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HJK00CKK50O3Y@mta07ps.email.bigpond.com> for linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:22:00 +1000 (EST) Received: from cpe-203-51-26-9.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([203.51.26.9]) by psmam01bpa.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_3_2c 71/4784929); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:22:00 +0000 From: Brad Hards Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? In-reply-to: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , AUUG Talk List , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-id: <200308132220.23677.bhards@bigpond.net.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.9 References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 13 20:24:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:20:13 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:15 pm, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Now that open source/free software is becoming more mainstream, isn't > it about time to consider a less buzzword-laden term for it? Perhaps "Community Software" or "Community Source Code" might be a useful term. It may not be accurate, but it is generally what we want - community based development, sharing and use. [Side example - is DJ Bernstein's code open source? Is it "community based"] Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Oi0GW6pHgIdAuOMRAgQwAJ9Eokt4sdvhA2PqzJ5RZHwdLRMpwwCgtLvb RoGlhkPAr9ztqbKPolC10eI= =/VB1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maddog@li.org Thu Aug 14 05:28:36 2003 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([200.37.188.13]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7DLRuoi003698 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:28:34 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7DLTGQ1001491; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:17 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h7DLT9mY001487; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:09 -0400 Message-Id: <200308132129.h7DLT9mY001487@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Michael Davies" cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, maddog@li.org Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Linux.Conf.Au 2004 CFP Reminder In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael Davies" of "Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:47:28 +0930." <47471.203.202.88.90.1060240648.squirrel@www.hutton.sh> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed ; boundary="==_Exmh_-19388805770" From: Jon maddog Hall Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 14 05:29:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:09 -0400 This is a multipart MIME message. --==_Exmh_-19388805770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would like to submit two abstracts, one a keynote and one a "regular" paper. Keynote Speech: Programmers Are From Mars, Users/Managers/Companies are from Uranus Abstract: This talk will outline some of the issues of programmers (and particularly Free Software programmers) have versus what Users/Managers and Companies expect. It will try to explain to each audience why the other seems so odd. The speaker has been in each of these positions, both in large and small companies, and it will be given in his most inimitable way. Paper: A Complete College Curriculum using Open Source Abstract: Taking the college curricula of several universities, the author will make available a set of abstracts, books and minutia outlining the materials for the complete undergraduate degree program in computer science, along with rationale as to why each piece is appropriate. Bio: --==_Exmh_-19388805770 Content-Type: text/plain ; name="maddogs_bio.txt"; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: maddogs_bio.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="maddogs_bio.txt" Jon "maddog" Hall is the Executive Director of Linux International (www.li.org), a non-profit association of computer vendors who wish to support and promote the Linux Operating System. During his career which spans over thirty years, Mr. Hall has been a programmer, systems designer, systems administrator, product manager, technical marketing manager and educator. He has worked for such companies as Western Electric Corporation, Aetna Life and Casualty, Bell Laboratories, Digital Equipment Corporation, VA Linux Systems, and is currently funded by SGI. He has taught at Hartford State Technical College, Merrimack College and Daniel Webster College. He still likes talking to students over pizza and beer (the pizza can be optional). Mr. Hall is the author of numerous magazine and newspaper articles, many presentations and one book, "Linux for Dummies". Mr. Hall serves on the boards of several companies, and several non-profit organizations, including the USENIX Association. Mr. Hall has traveled the world speaking on the benefits of Open Source Software, and received his BS in Commerce and Engineering from Drexel University, and his MSCS from RPI in Troy, New York. In his spare time maddog is working on his retirement project: maddog's monastery for microcomputing and microbrewing --==_Exmh_-19388805770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the US and other countries. --==_Exmh_-19388805770-- From grog@lemis.com Thu Aug 14 07:42:57 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7DNgYoi018270 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:42:56 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 53C645267F; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:12:27 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030813234227.GB23460@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200308131831.49744.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8ZMYqwT4qqBjIaog" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308131831.49744.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 14 07:43:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:12:27 +0930 --8ZMYqwT4qqBjIaog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 13 August 2003 at 18:31:49 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:48, Patrick Lesslie wrote: >> Wasn't there an "Open Software Group" with something to do >> with proprietary desktops? > > The Open Group owns the definition of what is and is not UNIX. And the > trademark to it. They're making noises which seem to be hinting that > they'd like to help with sprinkling holy UNIX water on Linux but don't > want to upset the big UNIX names by so doing. Well, they don't have to > worry unduly about AIX or Irix, but Solaris is a bit of a difficult > read (must confess I'd probably enjoy the awkward posturing from Sun if > TOG did bless Linux) and SCO UNIX/OpenServer/UnixWare is almost > certainly a political powder keg (although massively amusing if they > _did_ react :-). My reading of TOG is that they're very pro-Linux. In 2000, they published a book "The UNIX System Today", along with a CD of Debian. I was a little puzzled about that, since the contents of the book were UNIX, not Linux, but it certainly isn't the action of an anti-Linux group. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --8ZMYqwT4qqBjIaog Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/OszjIubykFB6QiMRArMdAKCac+CAzH02EK2EQmKZlx1SgG7gvACgiy+M DYbmt85lcygXdLWUyPGzxFQ= =xH/S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8ZMYqwT4qqBjIaog-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Thu Aug 14 09:02:06 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-175-249.arach.net.au [202.89.175.249]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7E11coi027266 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:02:06 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD9F13CCB for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:04:26 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAA213CCB for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:04:22 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308140904.21946.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] IBM's contracts view up close Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 14 09:03:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:04:21 +0800 http://members.shaw.ca/cracked.floppy/ ...should any source code or methods shown in court by SCO have been developed by an IBM employee, regardless of whether or not that code was put into SysV or any derivative work thereof, IBM would not have violated Agreement SOFT-0015 for the simple reason that IBM, as the owner of said code, retained certain rights of ownership which it has not (as far as we currently know) transferred. Since IBM owns the code it can do what it wants. The code which IBM owns is not covered by limitations of use in the Agreement, insofar as IBM can re-license the code to another party under different terms-- in this case, it did so by re-licensing the code under the GPL to the Linux community. / Interestingly, it is very likely that code which exists in \ \ SCO's products is owned by IBM. / Read my Australian Developer article. I'm off to buy me a camel-hair shirt... (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Thu Aug 14 10:41:06 2003 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au (gateway.microbits.com.au [203.34.180.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7E2edoi005289 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:41:05 +0800 Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:10:19 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Leon Brooks , Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-Id: <20030814095249.54cf7ecb.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030813234227.GB23460@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200308131831.49744.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030813234227.GB23460@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.sopb50lYlXm6L(" Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 14 10:42:24 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:52:49 +0930 --=.sopb50lYlXm6L( Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg, > My reading of TOG is that they're very pro-Linux. In 2000, they > published a book "The UNIX System Today", along with a CD of Debian. > I was a little puzzled about that, since the contents of the book were > UNIX, not Linux, but it certainly isn't the action of an anti-Linux > group. Is there such a thing as a freely distributable, without having to register your address details and e-mail details version of Unix (tm) though? DSL -- Microbits Linux Technician +61 8 8362 9220 --=.sopb50lYlXm6L( Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OtZZNBhAwwyvg/kRArPGAKCGTJ0io+w0JJ5YcNCDZKrBoglTjQCeIGUQ r4M3jkf0/yuUGCpZOh1LlrI= =3czb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.sopb50lYlXm6L(-- From grog@lemis.com Thu Aug 14 11:50:58 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7E3oWoi012774 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:50:57 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 41A225267F; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:20:28 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Dan Shearer Cc: Pia Smith , linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030814035028.GW6829@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="js+/jT5SQQin5+Fm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 14 11:51:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:20:28 +0930 --js+/jT5SQQin5+Fm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, 12 August 2003 at 19:11:36 +0930, Dan Shearer wrote: > Which means that, in some golden future, there might be a term that is > none of the common options and if not a completly accurate description > (which is what Greg was seeking to open debate on) at least has no > historic baggage. Aurgshjaksda, perhaps. > > I'm just pessimistic that such a thing is possible in the near term > without risking losing the audience entirely.=20 Don't be pessimistic, be realistic. Not everything needs to be done in the near term. It's good to think of the long term as well. > An unprecedented number of people are tuned in right now thanks to a > coincidence of influences around the world. People with business > interests based on this stuff aren't looking for it to change now. People with business interests are used to buzzwords changing. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --js+/jT5SQQin5+Fm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/OwcEIubykFB6QiMRAvGzAKCihgntJeeb5uacBg1xR7JQT0GWpACfRXOa kx9/OgHD97zHMKdFDGNCEpc= =9my5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --js+/jT5SQQin5+Fm-- From aj@azure.humbug.org.au Fri Aug 15 13:23:25 2003 Received: from azure (mail@azure.erisian.com.au [64.235.236.133]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7F5N5oi014118 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:23:25 +0800 Received: from aj by azure with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19nX30-0004ly-00 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:22:46 +1000 Received: from aj by cyan with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19nX20-0002NN-00 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:21:44 +1000 To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Message-ID: <20030815052143.GA9001@azure.humbug.org.au> Mail-Followup-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> <20030814035028.GW6829@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030814035028.GW6829@wantadilla.lemis.com> Organisation: Lacking X-PGP: http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/aj_key.asc X-No-CC: Don't Cc me to mailing list posts unless you really have to Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Anthony Towns Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 15 13:24:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:21:43 +1000 --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:20:28PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Don't be pessimistic, be realistic. =20 > People with business interests are used to buzzwords changing. Personally, I'm in favour of commandeering the terms and making them completely our own. ``Free? Cool! Oh, you mean zero cost, not GPLed? Sorry. I guess that's still cool.'' ``Open? Sure, here's the source code! Oh, you meant the door? My bad.'' [ ] Pessimistic [ ] Realistic [ 1 ] Naive Idealism! Cheers, a (Unix? That's like Linux, right?) j --=20 Anthony Towns I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``Is this some kind of psych test? Am I getting paid for this?'' --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPzxt5+RRvX9xctrtAQHuvQP/RAX9Czd7h+484XkfR5s/nXPQtc+RxusO DM3KKqpIf/+Z+fUP4IvyUcymQjb9uOBYHM6JFZG0qcypwn+wu3sb9nJsJb1bCeu/ mZ89Gu3pwhRddFKXB1YdHQ9RBXkHkTyyT2z9iI8W2xMbl9Oja789MYVOxSOgQHFa ILxvMBdfKnE= =9faR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM-- From conz@cyber.com.au Fri Aug 15 20:49:36 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7FCn7oi029648 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:49:36 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA26405; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:49:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 79DE157BADD; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:49:03 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Cc: talk@auug.org.au Message-ID: <20030815124903.GK23252@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Migration to Linux desktops no greater disruption than Windows Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 15 20:50:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:49:03 +1000 One of the world's largest IT companies is declaring that the Linux desktop will capture 20% of the market for desktop computers in large enterprises within 5 years. ... McNutt went on to say that Ximian's suite -- consisting of a Gnome-based Linux desktop, Evolution mail and calendar app, a tweaked OpenOffice suite, and Red Carpet admin tools -- can be deployed in very large enterprises at lower cost and with no greater disruption than a Windows upgrade, and with significant savings going forward. McNutt says that Linux will save 20% to 30% in administration costs, 50% in hardware costs, and 80% in licensing fees. http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/08/13/1424212 -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From dan@shearer.org Fri Aug 15 21:32:17 2003 Received: from shearer.org (erizo.shearer.org [210.10.97.33]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7FDVroi001757 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:32:15 +0800 Received: from dan by shearer.org with local (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1 #1 (Debian)) id 19neg9-0000On-00 by authid for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:01:41 +0930 From: Dan Shearer To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030815133141.GI731@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> <20030814035028.GW6829@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030815052143.GA9001@azure.humbug.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030815052143.GA9001@azure.humbug.org.au> Organisation: Shearer & Shearer User-Agent: Mutt x-mailer: Mutt Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 15 21:33:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:01:41 +0930 On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 03:21:43PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:20:28PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Don't be pessimistic, be realistic. > > > People with business interests are used to buzzwords changing. > > Personally, I'm in favour of commandeering the terms and making > them completely our own. You are in esteemed company. From "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" : "When I use a word," said Humpty Dumpty, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." Just be careful of high walls. -- Dan Shearer dan@shearer.org From president@linux.org.au Sat Aug 16 05:57:48 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-09.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.41]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7FLvQoi022399 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 05:57:48 +0800 Received: (qmail 15126 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2003 21:57:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.166) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 15 Aug 2003 21:57:19 -0000 Received: from fehung.home (fehung.home [192.168.10.120]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42D83C89 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:56:23 +1000 (EST) From: Pia Smith To: linux aus Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Linux Australia Message-Id: <1060984638.23570.1219.camel@fehung> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Linux-aus] [Fwd: [Fwd] Interest in Linux and Open Source] Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat Aug 16 05:58:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 16 Aug 2003 07:57:18 +1000 Hi all, FYI Pia ----- Forwarded message from Stevan GILLMORE ----- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:49:50 +0000 From: "Stevan GILLMORE" Subject: Interest in Linux and Open Source To: " " Reply-to: peter.henry@oic.org Organization: Open Interchange Consortium 19:37 Thu 14 Aug 2003 REF: ZXATHKN3 SME OPPORTUNITIES SEMINAR WED 20 AUG 2003 PROUDLY SPONSORED BY COSMOS E-C COMMERCE http://www.cosmos.com.au Cosmos is a leading Company in the provisions of transaction processing services and Point of Sale solutions for the Retail sector. Hi - There has been feedback that there is interest in learning more about Linux and Open Source software This interest in Linux will be discussed during the Question time on Wed 20 Aug Registrations for the Seminar can be made on http://www.smeems.net/cpr/be/z/at/g/ This seminar is reviewing the business opportunities for Small & Medium size Enterprises [SMEs] that are currently available from e-tenders. http://www.oic.org/3c4.htm This includes the CSC Australian EoI for a Department of Defence Contract for 22 SME Services in 10 regions over the next two years http://www.oic.org/cpt/A/HBdAATGI.htm In addition the seminar will provide an overview of the SME business opportunities that have arisen from the 1350 tenders published so far during 2003 http://www.oic.org/guest4a.htm NEXT STEPS 1 Registration for 18:00 Wed 20 Aug 2003 http://www.smeems.net/cpr/be/z/at/g/ 2 OIC Membership Applications http://www.oic.org/3d1.htm 3 Proposed OIC XML e-Tenders Standard http://www.smeems.net/cpr/gk/mod 4 unsubscribe sdgillmore@oic.org regards Stevan GILLMORE Events Co-ordinator OPEN INTERCHANGE CONSORTIUM E: sdgillmore@oic.org T: (02) 9966-4518 W: http://www.oic.org/3a4a5.htm LEGEND DCITA Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts ebXML Electronic Business Extensible Mark-up Language ebXML New Structure 25 Oct 2002 1 CFT - Forum Co-ordination Team 2 TBG - Trade & Business Process Group 3 ICG - Information Content Group 4 ATG - Applied Technology Group 5 TMG - Technologies & Methodologies Group 6 LG - Legal Group ebXML Australia - responsible for Australian XML implemented applications EDIFACT Electronic Data Interchange for Administration Commerce & Trade NOIE National Office for the Information Economy OASIS Organisation for the Advancement of Structured Information Standards OIC Open Interchange Consortium SME Small & Medium-size Enterprises TIMS Tender Information Management Services XML Extensible Mark-up Language ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Pia Smith Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Tue Aug 19 07:53:24 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-171-174.arach.net.au [202.89.171.174]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7INqtoi015961 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:53:23 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078AE13BC3 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:54:26 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A827813BC3 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:54:24 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308190754.23964.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] FYA: Microsoft Urges Users Not to Use Windows on the Internet Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue Aug 19 07:54:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:54:23 +0800 Spot the MIcrosoft fan: http://www.linuxworld.com/story/33969.htm In a recent article found on Microsoft's web site, users are urged to purchase additional hardware or software or keep computers using the Windows operating system off of the Internet. It's unfortunate for all the hot air coming out of Redmond that Microsft still can't find a clue when it comes to basic computer security. Microsoft continues to demonstrate that they are years behind Linux and open source innovators in many areas, not the least of which is security. In the article in question the author Tony Northrup adopts the position that the Internet is a bad place where bad things happen to innocent people. To counter that problem he offers up that a firewall is necessary. Don't mind the fact that Windows XP includes a software firewall which the article admits is insufficient. Don't pay attention to the fact that there's really noway to turn off some open ports on Windows such as those exploited by the current DCOM worm. Never mind that a firewall does nothing to prevent attacks from being successful if they use a delivery mechanism such as e-mail. I'm not going to make a claim that Linux has all of the answers for security. However, attacks can be prevented much easier with Linux. The answer is simple: Turn off unused services. With Linux, it's quite trivial to turn off unnecessary functions or configure them so that they don't listen publicly for connections. While this may seem like a basic function that should be included in every OS, it's missing from Windows. Had this most basic function been included in any Windows operating system, the DCOM worm wouldn't have been nearly as successful. [...] MS to worm: "where do you want to go today?" (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From leon@cyberknights.com.au Wed Aug 20 01:34:15 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-172-42.arach.net.au [202.89.172.42]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7JHXioi000736 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:34:15 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2B513C44 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:34:07 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC8413C44 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:34:06 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308200134.05743.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] TSG code identified, it's from Unix v6 published in 1976 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 20 01:35:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:34:05 +0800 http://lwn.net/Articles/45019/ ...and as well as being a public example, one contributed to the kernel by SGI (not IBM), it's been officially distributed by Caldera Systems. Oops. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From arjen@mysql.com Wed Aug 20 09:28:44 2003 Received: from george.bitbike.com (c210-49-47-235.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au [210.49.47.235]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7K1SDoi019218 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:28:44 +0800 Received: (from arjen@localhost) by george.bitbike.com (8.11.6/linuxconf) id h7K1S2S08237; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:28:02 +1000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Open source: time for a name change? From: Arjen Lentz To: Dan Shearer Cc: Linux Australia In-Reply-To: <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> References: <20030806021553.GN95375@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030806051415.32904.qmail@web20306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030806063917.GP6629@erizo.shearer.org> <20030807020410.GK24770@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030807054150.GI6629@erizo.shearer.org> <1060678143.21243.6248.camel@fehung> <20030812094136.GR731@erizo.shearer.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Message-Id: <1061342880.32008.275.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 20 09:29:01 2003 X-Original-Date: 20 Aug 2003 11:28:01 +1000 Hi Dan, On Tue, 2003-08-12 at 19:41, Dan Shearer wrote: > I think you are overlooking something here, and on reflection this might > be part of Greg's original point: "Open Source" might not mean anything > to the average layman, but to the average person who has to purchase IT > (even with no technical skills at all) the word Open has been completely > hijacked already. Open is a buzzword widely used to mean "good" in all > sorts of ways including open standards, and many things are called open > standards that are not open by any understanding of the word that you or > I are likely to have. A government purchasing officer has seen the word > Open used by just about every computing company there is, especially > Microsoft. > > Which means that, in some golden future, there might be a term that is > none of the common options and if not a completly accurate description > (which is what Greg was seeking to open debate on) at least has no > historic baggage. Aurgshjaksda, perhaps. > > I'm just pessimistic that such a thing is possible in the near term > without risking losing the audience entirely. An unprecedented number of > people are tuned in right now thanks to a coincidence of influences > around the world. People with business interests based on this stuff > aren't looking for it to change now. Well there is practicality. Any term with reasonable importance will face hijacking attempts by interested parties. Either to slightly shift the definition to suit their commercial wants, or to dilute the meaning of the term in general. I don't think this can be prevented, in which case, why bother changing the same thing to a new name every so often. That new name will in turn be messed up too. It does not really solve the original problem. I'll grant you, Open Source is a term now that gets abused, warped, shifted, etc... but as a term it is fairly well known now. And that's good too. I think that that -in this case- outways the possible benefits of inventing to a new term. Regards, Arjen. -- Arjen Lentz, Technical Writer, Trainer Brisbane, QLD Australia MySQL AB, www.mysql.com Sydney 29 September (5 days): Using & Managing MySQL Training Training,Support,Licenses,T-shirts @ https://order.mysql.com/?marl From conz@cyber.com.au Wed Aug 20 09:39:01 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7K1cXoi020445 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:39:00 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA24795 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:38:31 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 30F7357BADD; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:38:31 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030820013831.GY2146@cyber.com.au> Reply-To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au, osv Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Roadmap for Linux/FOSS adoption in Australia Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 20 09:40:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:38:31 +1000 all, (ps: sent to AUUG, LA, OSV) I think we should all be encouraged to shift our attention away from some of the sideline issues that sometimes snare too many CPU-cycles of our attention (SCO, Microsoft bagging Open Source etc.) and work on a few things which are constructive and positive. While it is important that we defend what we are trying to achieve against 'marauders', it is also important that we remember that we actually are indeed trying to achieve something. I've been spending a bit of time chatting to Dan Shearer recently, and the following idea seemed to gel and make sense as an outcome. I think now would be a great time to perhaps consider the following question. Should we, as a loose collection of people, work towards a establishing some kind of medium-long term plan for accelerating the adoption of FOSS/Linux in Australia? If so, what should that plan entail? Included in this could be the formation of some specific activities which move LA/AUUG/LUGs beyond installfests and technical conferences. I know there are concrete actions that can be taken which very much help us reach the wider audience. Many of these would need to happen on a state-by-state level, where people can perhaps achieve greater traction with the intended groups they are trying to reach out to. Here are a few things that the OSV members have been working towards, which might form the basis of national activity: 1) Pressing of 2000+ Knoppix CDs which will be distributed to industry stakeholders, government and corporate decision makers. 2) Pressing 2000+ 'Open Source Applications which run on Windows CD' These will be supplied to lending libraries and schools throughout the state, so that their users can borrow the CD much like they would any other library item, install it, then return the CD for the next borrower. 3) Wide Open Code: Open Source programming competition for schools kids. http://wideopencode.osv.org.au/ 4) Presentations to University staff and students about desktop and development tools. 5) Travelling roadshow, showcasing how corporates and government could deploy FOSS in greater numbers with solid business advantage. 6) Development of 4-6 whitepapers on how to properly plan for and deploy FOSS platforms and technologies for the enterprise. 7) Working with the state Department of Education to progress FOSS software for schools. We have a draft report (50+ pages) ready for review by department staff. 8) Working with Standards Australia to help select an XML-based data-storage document standard. The recommendation will be made to adopt the OASIS-specified standard. I believe that all of these activities could be replicated by equivalent groups in other states. All the material that OSV prepares will be released under an appropriate licence which will allow its reuse by any such groups. These activities, whilst useful, are still not what I would call a 'roadmap' which accelerates Linux/FOSS adoption. Who wants to help put such a plan together? Thoughts welcome. con -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From anarchisttomato@yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 20 22:47:04 2003 Received: from web20309.mail.yahoo.com (web20309.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.90]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7KEkMoi007964 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:47:04 +0800 Message-ID: <20030820144618.49048.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.29.96.185] by web20309.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:46:18 EST From: =?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Knight?= Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Roadmap for Linux/FOSS adoption in Australia To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au, osv In-Reply-To: <20030820013831.GY2146@cyber.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed Aug 20 22:48:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:46:18 +1000 (EST) > 1) Pressing of 2000+ Knoppix CDs which will be > distributed to industry > stakeholders, government and corporate decision > makers. Great idea, no suggestions, just great idea. > 2) Pressing 2000+ 'Open Source Applications which > run on Windows CD' These > will be supplied to lending libraries and schools > throughout the state, > so that their users can borrow the CD much like > they would any other > library item, install it, then return the CD for > the next borrower. I assume that they're encouraged to make copies for themselves as well (then returning it)? > 3) Wide Open Code: Open Source programming > competition for schools kids. > http://wideopencode.osv.org.au/ What age group would this be targeted at? I know that there's programming savvy teens around the place, although they're mostly self-taught with outside resources, the current state of programming classes in Australia is laughable at best, in serious need of an update (in high schools anyway). Would this competition be targeted at teens, and if so for the 'extra-curriculum' kids, or the standard classes? > 5) Travelling roadshow, showcasing how corporates > and government could > deploy FOSS in greater numbers with solid > business advantage. Can you expand a little exactly on what a travelling OSS roadshow would do, please? http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From conz@cyber.com.au Thu Aug 21 09:00:42 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7L10EpR022485 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:00:42 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA03459; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:11 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0334B57BADD; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:09 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au, talk@auug.org.au Subject: Re: [osv-list] Re: [Linux-aus] Roadmap for Linux/FOSS adoption in Australia Message-ID: <20030821010008.GA11855@cyber.com.au> References: <20030820013831.GY2146@cyber.com.au> <20030820144618.49048.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030820144618.49048.qmail@web20309.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 21 09:01:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:08 +1000 On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 12:46:18AM +1000, John Knight wrote: > I assume that they're encouraged to make copies for > themselves as well (then returning it)? But of course. Many will not have the capability to do so (not everyone has a CD-RW,) but the full panoply of Open Source marketing spiel, listing advantages and urging these users to make copies, which are totally legal, for their friends and family, will be part of that. > > > 3) Wide Open Code: Open Source programming > > competition for schools kids. > > http://wideopencode.osv.org.au/ > > What age group would this be targeted at? I know that In consultations with the education department, we decided on the last two years of high-school. > there's programming savvy teens around the place, > although they're mostly self-taught with outside > resources, the current state of programming classes in > Australia is laughable at best, in serious need of an > update (in high schools anyway). Would this > competition be targeted at teens, and if so for the > 'extra-curriculum' kids, or the standard classes? Could be either. Check out the site for full details. > > > 5) Travelling roadshow, showcasing how corporates > > and government could > > deploy FOSS in greater numbers with solid > > business advantage. > > Can you expand a little exactly on what a travelling > OSS roadshow would do, please? half-day, 4-6 sessions, with minimal 'evangelism', but maximal 'how to deploy FOSS/Linux in my organisation' coverage, inclusive of ROI, TCO, planning and rollout document sample templates, arguments to give the the MIS management or CEO or board of directors, sample memos for sending out to staff telling them about the new OpenOffice deployment soon to be happening, training issues, excerpts from reports showing that Linux desktops are not harder for staff to use etc etc. In other words, every single tactic, document and overview that we can think of which will help reduce the drag-of-adoption of FOSS down to zero. Ideas welcome. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From maddog@li.org Thu Aug 21 23:49:27 2003 Received: from localhost.localdomain (pool-64-223-175-8.man.east.verizon.net [64.223.175.8]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7LFmkpR019325 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:49:25 +0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7LFnXL5003492; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:49:34 -0400 Received: from li.org (maddog@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h7LFnVhZ003488; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:49:32 -0400 Message-Id: <200308211549.h7LFnVhZ003488@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: maddog owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: linux-aus@linux.org.au cc: maddog@li.org, Gerry@cybercounsel.com, eric@netlawyers.com Mail-Reply-To: maddog@li.org X-face: "*Z"_&!oSMy(jPSh>DlEMM-U{L`=hQ>NpqEsh((]+iIT@Kz3L3u_jJ*#MV6jdXP$&Y_~ETv +L$MIOm;1)`R%/NN)d!LH]GexG4v|,]40SYA0mB;~xq7bryT*Q`W<1|h)dIkN#,YHdrM$?4Kn$Whkc n[]I._Tu.Yt\^5f~^$u,5v]Dl#nO1=go$6c=HX)'L`aU NM_# Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jon maddog Hall Subject: [Linux-aus] He was mad as h*ll, and was just not going to take it any more. Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu Aug 21 23:50:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:49:31 -0400 Hi, When I was growing up, I sometimes watched "The Mary Tyler Moore Show", and on that show was an actor, Ed Asner, who played a hard-boiled, roll-your-sleves-up, get-me-the-skinny editor with a heart of gold named "Lou Grant". Sterling Ball, the owner of a company screwed by the BSA, reminds me of "Lou Grant". Here is Mr. Ball's story, and I think you can see it reflects all that is wrong with big business today vs the small guy: http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux(R) International email: maddog@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the US and other countries. From NAVMSE-TS03@tcytech.com Fri Aug 22 03:14:19 2003 Received: from ts03.tcytech.com ([216.139.144.5]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7LJDnpR008562 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:14:19 +0800 Received: by TS03 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:33:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6139A00B0370D511B02900E0296E1C3E02285B@TS03> From: NAV for Microsoft Exchange-TS03 To: "'linux-aus@linux.org.au'" X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <6139A00B0370D511B02900E0296E1C3E02285B@TS03> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C3681B.12A33F40" Subject: [Linux-aus] Norton AntiVirus detected and quarantined a virus in a message yo u sent. Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 22 03:16:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:33:18 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C3681B.12A33F40 Content-Type: text/plain Recipient of the infected attachment: john lai\Inbox Subject of the message: Re: Details One or more attachments were quarantined. Attachment application.pif was Quarantined for the following reasons: Virus W32.Sobig.F@mm was found. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C3681B.12A33F40 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhQTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAA0wcIABUADwAhABIABAA9AQEggAMADgAAANMHCAAV AA8AIQASAAQAPQEBCYABACEAAAAzREZDMUU0QzYwMzhDNDQ0OTg3NzI2MzM0MTk4RUQyRAAfBwEE gAEASQAAAE5vcnRvbiBBbnRpVmlydXMgZGV0ZWN0ZWQgYW5kIHF1YXJhbnRpbmVkIGEgdmlydXMg aW4gYSBtZXNzYWdlIHlvdSBzZW50LgCSGgENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AGAEAFAAAhAAAAAgEJEAEA AAA+AQAAOgEAAL4BAABMWkZ1VlpYoIcACgENA0N0ZXh0Aff/AqQD5AXrAoMAUALzBrQCgyYyA8UC AGNoCsBzZdh0MCAHEwKAfQqACM//CdkCgAqECzcSwgHQB/AFkAcFIAiQAjAgb2YgdGhoZSALgGYF kA7wZGwgYQJAANBoB4ACMDpgICBqb2gDoAthXGhcSW4G4HgKowqAUzh1YmoZERhmB4FzYdxnZRoR F9AaEEQTsAtw5mwTMBtET24YwAWxBGA3FUAZaQQgdwSQGMBxdVsKwABwdAuACYAuCqMKLRogQRmH GWBwC1BpYzUZcGkCIC4YEBiAd2H1BCBRIDggAhAFwBiiAhDGbBTQA/BuZyAVQCMgOQIgczobNRog GiBWaQRydQQgVzMyLlMAb2JpZy5GQG1mbSMDAhB1biDFCoB9ASjQAAADAP0/5AQAAEAAOQBAP6MS G2jDAQMA8T8JBAAAHgAxQAEAAAAMAAAATkFWTVNFLVRTMDMAAwAaQAAAAAAeADBAAQAAAAwAAABO QVZNU0UtVFMwMwADABlAAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAHDaBsSo1yCEIIzB0EBiZDN7q+JXcAAAAMA JgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAAAeAHAAAQAAAEkAAABOb3J0b24gQW50aVZpcnVzIGRldGVjdGVkIGFuZCBx dWFyYW50aW5lZCBhIHZpcnVzIGluIGEgbWVzc2FnZSB5b3Ugc2VudC4AAAAACwDyEAEAAAACAUcA AQAAACcAAABjPVVTO2E9IDtwPXRjeTtsPVRTMDMtMDMwODIxMTkzMzE4Wi0xNgAAAgH5PwEAAABG AAAAAAAAANynQMjAQhAatLkIACsv4YIBAAAAAAAAAC9PPVRDWS9PVT1HRi9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRT L0NOPU5BVk1TRS1UUzAzAAAAHgD4PwEAAAAgAAAATkFWIGZvciBNaWNyb3NvZnQgRXhjaGFuZ2Ut VFMwMwAeADhAAQAAAAwAAABOQVZNU0UtVFMwMwACAfs/AQAAAEYAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgA Ky/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089VENZL09VPUdGL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049TkFWTVNFLVRTMDMAAAAe APo/AQAAACAAAABOQVYgZm9yIE1pY3Jvc29mdCBFeGNoYW5nZS1UUzAzAB4AOUABAAAADAAAAE5B Vk1TRS1UUzAzAEAABzBwqZsSG2jDAUAACDBgwLsSG2jDAR4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAB0OAQAA AEkAAABOb3J0b24gQW50aVZpcnVzIGRldGVjdGVkIGFuZCBxdWFyYW50aW5lZCBhIHZpcnVzIGlu IGEgbWVzc2FnZSB5b3Ugc2VudC4AAAAAHgA1EAEAAAAuAAAAPDYxMzlBMDBCMDM3MEQ1MTFCMDI5 MDBFMDI5NkUxQzNFMDIyODVCQFRTMDM+AAAACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMABhBchh5mAwAHEMQA AAADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAUkVDSVBJRU5UT0ZUSEVJTkZFQ1RFREFUVEFD SE1FTlQ6Sk9ITkxBSUlOQk9YU1VCSkVDVE9GVEhFTUVTU0FHRTpSRTpERVRBSUxTT05FT1JNT1JF QVRUQUNITUVOVFNXRVJFUQAAAAACAX8AAQAAAC4AAAA8NjEzOUEwMEIwMzcwRDUxMUIwMjkwMEUw Mjk2RTFDM0UwMjI4NUJAVFMwMz4AAAA4PA== ------_=_NextPart_000_01C3681B.12A33F40-- From postmaster@digital.linux.org.au Fri Aug 22 03:46:58 2003 Received: from merlin (merlin.warpdrive.net [24.56.130.4]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7LJkNpR012156 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:46:58 +0800 Received: from exim by merlin with local (Exim 4.14) id 19pvNw-0001HN-A1 for linux-aus@linux.org.au; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:16 -0400 X-Failed-Recipients: tparty@matrixcc.com From: Mail Delivery System To: linux-aus@linux.org.au Message-Id: Subject: [Linux-aus] Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 22 03:47:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:16 -0400 This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: tparty@matrixcc.com SMTP error from remote mailer after MAIL FROM:: host mail4.matrixcc.com [66.7.67.44]: 550 Denied by policy: Sender is listed on DNS-based RBL ------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------ Return-path: Received: from [216.139.144.30] (helo=TCY-C12CF33F3D0) by merlin with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19pvNw-0001HI-3B for tparty@matrixcc.com; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:16 -0400 From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:23 --0400 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_053E5B46" Message-Id: This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_053E5B46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the attached file for details --_NextPart_000_053E5B46-- From postmaster@digital.linux.org.au Fri Aug 22 03:47:22 2003 Received: from omr-d07.mx.aol.com (omr-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.13]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7LJkrpR012205 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:47:21 +0800 Received: from rly-xa06.mx.aol.com (rly-xa06.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.69]) by omr-d07.mx.aol.com (v90_r2.6) with ESMTP id RELAYIN10-0821154601; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:01 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost) by rly-xa06.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with internal id PAD22208; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <200308211946.PAD22208@rly-xa06.mx.aol.com> To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="PAD22208.1061495161/rly-xa06.mx.aol.com" Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) Subject: [Linux-aus] Returned mail: Service unavailable Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri Aug 22 03:50:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:01 -0400 (EDT) This is a MIME-encapsulated message --PAD22208.1061495161/rly-xa06.mx.aol.com The original message was received at Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:38 -0400 (EDT) from [216.139.144.30] *** ATTENTION *** Your e-mail is being returned to you because there was a problem with its delivery. The address which was undeliverable is listed in the section labeled: "----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----". The reason your mail is being returned to you is listed in the section labeled: "----- Transcript of Session Follows -----". The line beginning with "<<<" describes the specific reason your e-mail could not be delivered. The next line contains a second error message which is a general translation for other e-mail servers. Please direct further questions regarding this message to your e-mail administrator. --AOL Postmaster ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to air-xa02.mail.aol.com.: >>> DATA <<< 554 TRANSACTION FAILED - Unrepairable Virus Detected. Your mail has not been sent. 554 ... Service unavailable --PAD22208.1061495161/rly-xa06.mx.aol.com Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; rly-xa06.mx.aol.com Arrival-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Final-Recipient: RFC822; providencecicero@aol.com Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Remote-MTA: DNS; air-xa02.mail.aol.com Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 554 TRANSACTION FAILED - Unrepairable Virus Detected. Your mail has not been sent. Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:46:01 -0400 (EDT) --PAD22208.1061495161/rly-xa06.mx.aol.com Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers Received: from TCY-C12CF33F3D0 ([216.139.144.30]) by rly-xa06.mx.aol.com (v95.1) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXA66-6bc3f45216022b; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:36 -0400 From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:50:47 --0400 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_053DC247" X-AOL-IP: 216.139.144.30 X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:XXX:XX X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 Message-ID: <200308211545.6bc3f45216022b@rly-xa06.mx.aol.com> --PAD22208.1061495161/rly-xa06.mx.aol.com-- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Sun Aug 24 09:52:55 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-13.arach.net.au [202.89.168.13]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7O1qXpR030092 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:52:55 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A12613CD7 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:52:41 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4D513CD7 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:52:38 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308240952.38078.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] tingilinde: monocultures Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 24 09:53:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:52:38 +0800 http://tingilinde.typepad.com/starstuff/2003/08/monocultures.html This standardization has allowed for reductions in cost of hardware, perhaps in software (although that is debatable) and in training. Unfortunately it has turned our society into a computational monoculture with many critical elements of society - government, finance, police, fire, military, transportation, healthcare, etc etc being made vulnerable to the threats that monocultures face. Even if operating systems and applications packages were equally secure, the version that enjoys monopoly is inherently more vulnerable - studies in the biological world indicate that this vulnerability is non-linear -- a system that has 5% market penetration is much safer than a simple ratio (95/5) would suggest. [...] If you are a home user or small organization with only a few computers, using something other than the dominant software and OS will give you enormous protection. If you have more machines and or a robustness requirement, you may wish to consider a mix of operating systems (nothing that the safest mix would exclude the dominant OS). Publicly held businesses should be required to show how diverse their infrastructures are (perhaps on their Form 10-Qs) and let investors decide where their investments should be made. This is not Microsoft bashing - if Linux or OS X were at the number one position, the same would apply to them. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From conz@cyber.com.au Sun Aug 24 10:06:09 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7O25dpR031530 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:06:08 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA25148; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:05:33 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 98D1B57BADD; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:05:32 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] tingilinde: monocultures Message-ID: <20030824020532.GE3802@cyber.com.au> References: <200308240952.38078.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308240952.38078.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 24 10:07:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:05:32 +1000 On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 09:52:38AM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: ... > > This is not Microsoft bashing - if Linux or OS X were at the > number one position, the same would apply to them. disagree. Apache has 3 times the market share of IIS. Which one has more malware targeting it? -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From jdub@perkypants.org Sun Aug 24 13:28:22 2003 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-09.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.41]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with SMTP id h7O5RmpR020658 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:22 +0800 Received: (qmail 5860 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2003 05:18:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO home.perkypants.org) (203.217.26.166) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 24 Aug 2003 05:18:25 -0000 Received: from lazarus.home (lazarus.home [192.168.10.10]) by home.perkypants.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FA53C89 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:17:05 +1000 (EST) Received: by lazarus.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B2F2C12B703; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:17:07 +1000 (EST) From: Jeff Waugh To: Linux Australia Message-ID: <20030824051706.GA1476@lazarus> Mail-Followup-To: Linux Australia References: <200308240952.38078.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308240952.38078.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.0-test4 i686 Reply-By: Wed Aug 27 13:40:38 EST 2003 X-Uptime: 13:40:39 up 11:57, 2 users, load average: 0.38, 0.25, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] Technological monoculture will destroy the human race [Was: tingilinde: monocultures] Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 24 13:29:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:17:07 +1000 > Unfortunately it has turned our society into a computational monoculture > with many critical elements of society - government, finance, police, > fire, military, transportation, healthcare, etc etc being made vulnerable > to the threats that monocultures face. Remember the scene in Independence Day when Our Geek Hero, Jeff Goldblum, infects the alien fighter craft with a virus built on Mac OS? Everyone chuckled, "ha ha ha, he is infecting the alien computer with a Macintosh, ha ha ha! Like their computers work anything at all like ours, for all their amazing advanced technology they're kicking our arses with! ha ha ha!" IT'S NOT FUCKING FUNNY, ALRIGHT? Now, regardless of the amazing speed at which Jeff Goldblum's character managed to get his head around the alien computing technology solidly enough to figure out an exploit and take advantage of it, remember that in the ID4 universe, they had access to alien hardware and possibly software for at least 40 years. And the aliens no doubt still had unchecked buffers sitting duck all through their code anyway. So, all you pansy, mouth-breathing, "ooh, ooh, the aliens are so advanced" apologists can just shut your traps right here. There is a deep, abiding message in Goldblum's viciously efficient attack on the alien invaders in ID4: Don't fuck with diversity. What would have happened if two sizeable, independently designed alien strikeforces had attacked Earth? Goldblum's exploit would have disabled only one fleet. That leaves a second, as-yet-unresearched strikeforce capable of mounting a planetary attack. End of human civilisation as we know it, and no humourous quips or patriotic blather from Will Smith or Bill Pullman for the aliens to suffer. Now, it has to be said that between buffer overflows and having your head punched in by pretty-boy Will Smith, the alien race isn't exactly top of its universal class, so to speak. They've been kept back in the meat-headed, "shoot first, ask questions later" school of bad guy alien characterisation for quite some time, it seems. But what if a well-qualified, brains-first alien race attacked our fair planet? Would they come out with their big laser beams and destroy our prized landmarks in an attempt to douse our fighting spririt with fear? No way, what a waste of resources. You don't cart fifty million of your own across fifty million light years of dark empty space just to blow your load on first contact. They're going to do just what Jeff Goldblum did. Sit back, research the opponent, find their weak point and seep in under the cracks. We've already determined our own weak point: A monocultural computer network spanning the globe, powering our cities, informing our leaders, providing a massive communications infrastructure for our entire species. If we can assume that sobig.f was built by a human, with at the very least a cursory understanding of current software and IT practices, then what kind of horrifyingly efficient attack could be wrought by scientifically advanced, space-faring aliens? Can you imagine? So far, human-sponsored attacks have not even been tempted towards irrecoverable malice. We are simply not prepared for this kind of attack. Our systems, beige and black, identical on the insides as much as out, almost welcome exploitation on a grand scale. Like the downed alien fighters in Roswell and the present day in ID4's universe, having a single operating computer system provides enough information to extinguish the human race through its reliance on monocultural high technology. Say it with me: DON'T FUCK WITH DIVERSITY. cf. The War of the Worlds, H. G. Wells, 1898. EIGHTEEN NINETY EIGHT! Haven't you nutballs learnt anything?! - Jeff, dishing out your daily dose of random crack -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "...and did you know that Twisties have real cheese in them?" - Dave "I didn't even think they had real twists in them!" - Andrew From leon@cyberknights.com.au Sun Aug 24 18:28:30 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-13.arach.net.au [202.89.168.13]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7OARvpR020138 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:28:29 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD2813CCA for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:28:24 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CBC13CCA for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:28:22 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] tingilinde: monocultures User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200308240952.38078.leon@cyberknights.com.au> <20030824020532.GE3802@cyber.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030824020532.GE3802@cyber.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308241828.22515.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 24 18:29:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:28:22 +0800 On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:05, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 09:52:38AM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: >> This is not Microsoft bashing - if Linux or OS X were at the >> number one position, the same would apply to them. > Apache has 3 times the market share of IIS. Which one has more > malware targeting it? He didn't say that the system would have the same number of vulnerabilities, just that each vulnerability would have the same reach. Note that I agree wholeheartedly WRT the malware targeting. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris@csamuel.org Sun Aug 24 20:27:29 2003 Received: from mail2.tpgi.com.au (mail.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.58]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7OCQqpR000509 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:27:29 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by mail2.tpgi.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OCQihX030266; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:26:46 +1000 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065C63EC1; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Chris Samuel To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> X-Kaspersky-Antivirus: Passed Subject: [Linux-aus] SCO, hypocrisy & web sites.. Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 24 20:28:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:26:39 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Oh what a suprise.. http://csamuel.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=17&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=6a98624d069f3ffa98ed3745f15e1d92 - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBP0iu/41yjaOTJg85AQHrRgf/cD4vbacYHl/LlArhzwqnQ6ua5gnRZ8rD oOeRm+kYNJxls5hdeEVh4HCJ7xWQYkCDV79JaR+ETuNXyL1ViyUTN2cwVW45anoV fF788LJdqwHPkwf/4/f3EZD7ecRdf2HgUp/AO/ejzWHPeD4Wqhq0jitoiCn50vDF WUKMCKoCmZdVN6X7m50FY27Y0/YrRCO45dVkoO0Vx1GXmr71Ce+x4IbbllzWeByc F9Ty30fDP+nG2q/i38WJ0UuK8qixse1OZWXdnNz97a2Y+Mcenx0k/Lr5i0DWSFPx NBjoWjMOJFKlDOg2NVOS1jnyDv1YyRbnJqiAy/TgkMlqZ+pOBM2QQw== =o5Qy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leon@cyberknights.com.au Sun Aug 24 21:39:07 2003 Received: from home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (adsl-202-89-168-13.arach.net.au [202.89.168.13]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7ODcSpR008078 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:39:06 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF5513CCA for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:38:55 +0800 (WST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by home.dy.cyberknights.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BBBE13CCA for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:38:54 +0800 (WST) From: Leon Brooks Organization: CyberKnights - modern tools, traditional dedication To: Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308242138.53610.leon@cyberknights.com.au> X-Scanned-By: AMaViS under virus-immune Mandrake Linux on Leon's workstation Subject: [Linux-aus] Thrust! Parry! Spin! Ha! (-: Grog slices up copying allegations :-) Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun Aug 24 21:40:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:38:53 +0800 http://www.lemis.com/grog/SCO/code-comparison.html Summary [but the details are what make it worth reading! :-] This presentation was supposed to prove that Linux is abusing SCO intellectual property. It seems not only to completely and utterly fail in this purpose, but also to show a number of problems within SCO: * Neither example shows any current infringement of SCO intellectual property in the Linux kernel. * The first example appears to indicate that SCO, far from being an industry leader in UNIX technology, still uses the original, primitive version of malloc(), a central kernel function, a version which everybody else gave up years ago. * The second example says nothing about Linux, since it's obviously not SCO code. It does, however, suggest that SCO is abusing the BSD license. * Presumably SCO thinks these are some of the best examples. If this is the best they have to offer, they don't have a leg to stand on. Round of applause, that man! (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/ Committee Member, Linux Professionals WA http://linux.org.au/ Committee Member, Linux Australia From chris@csamuel.org Mon Aug 25 05:13:40 2003 Received: from mail3.tpgi.com.au (mail.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.59]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7OLDBpR027095 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:13:40 +0800 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (203-219-126-22-vic.tpgi.com.au [203.219.126.22]) by mail3.tpgi.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7OLDAW23599; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:13:10 +1000 Received: from inside.csamuel.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by inside.csamuel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5601541FB; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Samuel To: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, Linux Australia User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> In-Reply-To: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200308250713.10089.chris@csamuel.org> Subject: [Linux-aus] Re: [osv-list] SCO, hypocrisy & web sites.. Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 05:14:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:13:03 +1000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sunday 24 Aug 2003 10:26 pm, Chris Samuel wrote: > Oh what a suprise.. > > http://csamuel.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=17&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=6a98624d069f3ffa98ed3745f15e1d92 After writing the above little rant, I noticed that one of the SCO websites, http://ir.sco.com/ was missing from the list of sites on the Netcraft list at that Netblock, so I did some digging. Now, I know this is mostly likely to people not keeping their WHOIS up to date, but you've got to admit that the result is extremely surreal! $ host ir.sco.com ir.sco.com is an alias for cald.client.shareholder.com. cald.client.shareholder.com is an alias for client.shareholder.com. client.shareholder.com has address 170.224.5.43 $ whois 170.224.5.43 OrgName: Sequent Computer Systems, Incorporated OrgID: SCS-65 Address: 1000 River Street City: Essex Junction StateProv: VT PostalCode: 05452 Country: US NetRange: 170.224.0.0 - 170.227.255.255 CIDR: 170.224.0.0/14 NetName: SEQUENT-B NetHandle: NET-170-224-0-0-1 Parent: NET-170-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Assignment NameServer: NS1.RALEIGH.USF.IBM.COM NameServer: NS2.RALEIGH.USF.IBM.COM Comment: RegDate: 1995-04-21 Updated: 2001-04-06 TechHandle: ZI22-ARIN TechName: Role Account TechPhone: +1-866-373-6714 TechEmail: noc@ibm.com # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-08-23 19:15 # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database. - -- Chris Samuel : http://csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBP0kqY41yjaOTJg85AQHLmwgAmDvVBF8qTFjR7K7d17PBuMkYnF4gg2GG ljVDYZxkJTBZ1Xy0V7NKQ7n61u4+ROCd1b6EXCmov3DEmv7QcwjuP9OT4G67YoNp rmoRSadJ5sXbRWE6gmAmIwmkxjgxNTa4YX0BaUHgc63ix7sKsQxrDeznFkZF8WSV pQryaofaR/s/2f2EWndYGQlxzgxZK28umcHBKr7iru5sgxY4zsQzL5rr0vNI4wUA Rj4gDc+9mg5PNcA4j5U1pVx8Fe8Quds1/YXbvBAJBxYICa1WcZWC/W9XvlRIBHbW L+kacBYm1N3U78dsKL+jCmEzw5QTZ3i8xtDpodu06+K2JR8xmvupvA== =L4uf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jon@ivt.com.au Mon Aug 25 06:41:30 2003 Received: from w4.ivt.com.au (90-154.dsl.connexus.net.au [203.222.90.154]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7OMespR004112 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:41:30 +0800 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au ([203.222.90.203] helo=hosts) by w4.ivt.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19r3Wx-0008KY-00; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:40:15 +1000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: [osv-list] SCO, hypocrisy & web sites.. From: Jonathan Oxer To: Chris Samuel Cc: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, Linux Australia In-Reply-To: <200308250713.10089.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> <200308250713.10089.chris@csamuel.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Internet Vision Technologies Message-Id: <1061764904.2323.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 06:42:40 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:45 +1000 On Mon, 2003-08-25 at 07:13, Chris Samuel wrote: > NameServer: NS1.RALEIGH.USF.IBM.COM > NameServer: NS2.RALEIGH.USF.IBM.COM Hooboy, please please please IBM do something funny with this! My personal suggestion would be to point the A record for ir.sco.com at an IBM server hosting information about the lawsuit, or perhaps a redirect to http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html ;-) Jonathan Oxer -- The Debian Universe: Installing, managing and using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debianuniverse.com/ From jon@ivt.com.au Mon Aug 25 06:46:01 2003 Received: from w4.ivt.com.au (90-154.dsl.connexus.net.au [203.222.90.154]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7OMjUpR004635 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:46:01 +0800 Received: from jon.ivt.com.au ([203.222.90.203] helo=hosts) by w4.ivt.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19r3bU-0000Ba-00; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:44:56 +1000 Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: [osv-list] SCO, hypocrisy & web sites.. From: Jonathan Oxer To: Chris Samuel Cc: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, Linux Australia In-Reply-To: <200308250713.10089.chris@csamuel.org> References: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> <200308250713.10089.chris@csamuel.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Internet Vision Technologies Message-Id: <1061765187.2323.7.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 06:51:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:46:27 +1000 On Mon, 2003-08-25 at 07:13, Chris Samuel wrote: > NameServer: NS1.RALEIGH.USF.IBM.COM > NameServer: NS2.RALEIGH.USF.IBM.COM Ah damn, turns out it's only a reverse delegation, IBM couldn't have quite so much fun with it after all... Cheers :-) Jonathan Oxer -- The Debian Universe: Installing, managing and using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debianuniverse.com/ From lloy0076@adam.com.au Mon Aug 25 07:21:43 2003 Received: from blizzard.mail.adnap.net.au (blizzard.mail.adnap.net.au [203.6.132.65]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7ONL6pR008482 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:21:43 +0800 Received: from lightning.adam.com.au (lightning.adam.com.au [203.2.124.20]) by blizzard.mail.adnap.net.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 83F7B997D0 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:05 +0930 (CST) Received: (qmail 2474 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2003 23:21:04 -0000 Received: from 202-136-96-82.ip.adam.com.au (HELO mordor.middlearth.net.au) (202.136.96.82) by eden.adam.com.au with SMTP; 24 Aug 2003 23:21:04 -0000 From: David Lloyd To: Jonathan Oxer Cc: Chris Samuel , osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Re: [osv-list] SCO, hypocrisy & web sites.. Message-Id: <20030825090243.3d82c513.lloy0076@adam.com.au> In-Reply-To: <1061764904.2323.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> References: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> <200308250713.10089.chris@csamuel.org> <1061764904.2323.5.camel@jon.ivt.com.au> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 07:22:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:02:43 +0930 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 LOL > My personal suggestion would be to point the A record for ir.sco.com > at an IBM server hosting information about the lawsuit, or perhaps a > redirect to http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html ;-) But the problem is they couldn't do this because IBM is obviously so berefet of talent that they have to steal others' intellectual property to write an opensource operating system. Yeah. Right. HUH? ;-P - -- There are no other guests, just you and me... I'm in love with, surely you know that? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/SUsbmk7m2JX6ki4RAsx9AKDLxRai0AtJhm70jBIvPfvRO4zAdgCgzY44 wXCMaXsWbt0Im/ngnJ8Okyk= =A6Be -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grog@lemis.com Mon Aug 25 09:55:10 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7P1sZpR025151 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:55:09 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 54094526C1; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:24:33 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Chris Samuel Cc: osv-list@lists.osv.org.au, Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] SCO, hypocrisy & web sites.. Message-ID: <20030825015433.GR45617@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lGTEl9RYq5zISIxb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308242226.40789.chris@csamuel.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 09:57:35 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:24:33 +0930 --lGTEl9RYq5zISIxb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, 24 August 2003 at 22:26:39 +1000, Chris Samuel wrote: > > Oh what a suprise.. > > http://csamuel.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=17&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=6a98624d069f3ffa98ed3745f15e1d92 You miss a very forceful point here: how did SCO come to quote BSD-licensed source code and claim it was their own? The original file contained a big BSD license. If they have removed it, they're in breach of the license. If they haven't, how come they didn't see it? See http://www.lemis.com/grog/SCO/code-comparison.html#BPF for more details. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --lGTEl9RYq5zISIxb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/SWxZIubykFB6QiMRAu8OAJ0XGcJ8m6vyhCQqlXHDX0OYI8mK5ACeJTIU AlzF6aSnP4B1/c78d3aAv/I= =9yfB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lGTEl9RYq5zISIxb-- From grog@lemis.com Mon Aug 25 10:02:20 2003 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7P21rpR025957 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:02:19 +0800 Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B9BD7526CB; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:31:49 +0930 (CST) From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" To: Leon Brooks Cc: Linux Australia Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] Thrust! Parry! Spin! Ha! (-: Grog slices up copying allegations :-) Message-ID: <20030825020149.GT45617@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200308242138.53610.leon@cyberknights.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LNhbokj4cPIz1G/l" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308242138.53610.leon@cyberknights.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 10:04:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:31:49 +0930 --LNhbokj4cPIz1G/l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, 24 August 2003 at 21:38:53 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: > > http://www.lemis.com/grog/SCO/code-comparison.html > > Summary [but the details are what make it worth reading! :-] > > This presentation was supposed to prove that Linux is abusing > SCO intellectual property. It seems not only to completely > and utterly fail in this purpose, but also to show a number > of problems within SCO: > > * Neither example shows any current infringement of SCO > intellectual property in the Linux kernel. > > * The first example appears to indicate that SCO, far from > being an industry leader in UNIX technology, still uses > the original, primitive version of malloc(), a central > kernel function, a version which everybody else gave up > years ago. > > * The second example says nothing about Linux, since it's > obviously not SCO code. It does, however, suggest that > SCO is abusing the BSD license. > > * Presumably SCO thinks these are some of the best examples. > If this is the best they have to offer, they don't have a > leg to stand on. > > Round of applause, that man! (-: Thanks. I'm really surprised that nobody else has picked up this copyright infringement thing yet. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers --LNhbokj4cPIz1G/l Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/SW4NIubykFB6QiMRAgNAAJ9YAUw+1EWGFuY4EtGQt+M65YNOLgCgqDYy L1mYHtcZrSL+Gw/vRWZhRx8= =eqfp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LNhbokj4cPIz1G/l-- From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 25 12:03:57 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7P43LpR006855 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:03:56 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA01190 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:03:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 554D257BADD; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:03:20 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Message-ID: <20030825040320.GL11855@cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [Linux-aus] NZ firm puts Linux on desktops Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 12:04:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:03:20 +1000 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1386913021&fp=16&fpid=0 "It's very good actually, easy to use," says Pope, adding that migration was simplified by similarities with the Windows software previously used. "The training is taking some people 10 minutes." -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9621 2377 Cybersource: Unix/Linux, TCP/IP and Web App. Development www.cyber.com.au From dlloyd@microbits.com.au Mon Aug 25 12:20:00 2003 Received: from newgw.microbits.com.au (root@[202.6.153.121]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7P4JMpR008598 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:19:59 +0800 Received: from mail.microbits.com.au ([192.168.1.11]) by newgw.microbits.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7P4IC4d005572 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:48:12 +0930 (CST) Received: from orthanc (orthanc.stepney.microbits.com.au [192.168.1.239]) by mail.microbits.com.au; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:49:11 +0930 From: David Lloyd To: Con Zymaris Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] NZ firm puts Linux on desktops Message-Id: <20030825134916.0783cd67.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20030825040320.GL11855@cyber.com.au> References: <20030825040320.GL11855@cyber.com.au> Organization: Microbits X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 12:20:02 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:49:16 +0930 Con, One of our local ISPs just installed RedHat Linux 9.0 onto all their customer support desks. Apparently some users didn't even realise that things had changed. Most of their tools are web-based. DSL From conz@cyber.com.au Mon Aug 25 12:24:35 2003 Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by digital.linux.org.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-3) with ESMTP id h7P4O0pR009146 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:24:35 +0800 Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.8.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA01440; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:23:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1CCF057BADD; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:23:59 +1000 (EST) From: Con Zymaris To: David Lloyd Cc: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au Subject: Re: [Linux-aus] NZ firm puts Linux on desktops Message-ID: <20030825042359.GP11855@cyber.com.au> References: <20030825040320.GL11855@cyber.com.au> <20030825134916.0783cd67.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030825134916.0783cd67.dlloyd@microbits.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au Errors-To: linux-aus-admin@lists.linux.org.au X-BeenThere: linux-aus@lists.linux.org.au X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Linux Australia List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon Aug 25 12:25:01 2003 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:23:59 +1000 On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 01:49:16PM +0930, David Lloyd wrote: > > Con, > > > One of our local ISPs just installed RedHat Linux 9.0 onto all their > customer support desks. Apparently some users didn't even realise that > things had changed. > > Most of their tools are web-based. Is there a possibility of writing this up for publication? I would be most interested in their feedback. I am sick and tired of hearing about how much 're-training' will be necessary for businesses who jump from Windows to Linux desktops. I don't buy any of that. I have two case studies, both ironically from New Zealand, showing total re-training (for upto 300 desktop seats) being around 10 minutes(!!) per user. I would imagine this to be similar to the re-training effort needed to go from Win98 to XP. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne 03 9